MP
490 posts
Jun 18, 2010
4:21 PM
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when i was learning to play harp i used the original hohner blues harp.
these were held together with nails and were MB 1896s with different covers.(there was a rumour they had thinner reeds but that is completely untrue).
you had to make 'em work.
i think having to work so hard layed the ground work for good tone and technique, in my case at least.
also,a lot of median priced modern OOBs are really good harps.
my food for thought questions are,
would someone learning harp be better off learning on customs or OOBs?
and/or, should customs be the province of experienced players who can tell the difference betwixt the two?
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GermanHarpist
1561 posts
Jun 18, 2010
4:38 PM
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Changing instruments always requires you to change your technique. So maybe if you plan to end up playing customs anyway (being it of a customizer or of yourself) maybe it's not that bad an idea to start on a custom one...
However, then there's the counter argument...
A bad harp generally sounds... bad. That means it takes a lot of effort and time learning how to use the limited sounds that you can get out of the instrument to make it sound good. With the custom you can go straight into developing your technical chops and you're not forced to spend so much time with the essentials of what makes good music good.
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 4:54 PM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
785 posts
Jun 18, 2010
4:42 PM
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nothing against customs im a newbie and know i would bust one,I love LO harps they make you work,Like you mentioned MP,and they last,I firgure if i spend 40$ bucks on a harp it better play out of the box,Not counting reed adjument if necassary,If i have to buy a custom to play, I will just say the Hell with it and play my guitar,But thank God LO makes a harp that i can be happy with and learn on.thats my opion and all the LO haters have there opion but thats mine.I would like to try a out of the box sp20 cause i would like a more (just tuning) sometimes,but i hear they dont last that long and im beat up,busted and broke,So i play what will last the longest for the money.Anyone know the longivity of the sp20?
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 4:44 PM
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nacoran
2191 posts
Jun 18, 2010
4:43 PM
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Thinking back to all the things I tried as a kid and gave up on, I'd at least recommend playing an OOTB until someone is really sure harmonica is their instrument. I think a lot would depend on whether the person wants to learn OB's and stuff. I don't OB, maybe part of that is my choice in harps, but some of it's my choice of music. I like the idea of trying different harps when you buy new keys. Eventually you'll find one you like. My favorite harp, besides my LLF, is a Bb Lee Oskar. In fact, the next one is a LO G, and the one after that is a LO C. I want to try at least a more brands before I become exclusive to one model. I've gapped a lot of my harps, but other than that I haven't done anything to my good harps. (I'm messed around opening up the backs and embossing on some cheap harps.)
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oldwailer
1289 posts
Jun 18, 2010
5:30 PM
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IMHO: A complete newbie should start out with OOTB harps--just long enough to get hooked real good--then, after he has learned to control his breath force a little, he ought to spring for at least one good custom in his favorite key--for me that was an A.
That way, when the player is advanced enough to get down to the real nuances of playing well, he would have at least one harp to practice nuances on.
Of course, I believe a newbie should also buy a half-dozen dirt-cheapies to practice gapping and flattening of the comb and plates on. I think anybody who wants to get good needs either an unlimited supply of money to buy customs with--or a good working knowledge of how to make harps better on his own.
At least one of Adams early lessons helped me a lot in learning really basic adjustments on a MB harp--I don't remember the number of the lesson. . .
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Todd Parrott
116 posts
Jun 18, 2010
5:33 PM
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I learned on stock Golden Melodies and played them for many years. However, I have to say that if it weren't for Joe Spiers' harps, I would have never been able to play the overblow and overdraw bends that I use now. So, this is a good question...
I'm not usually a harp sharer, but I've let a few beginners and non-overblowers try my customs and they are always amazed at how they can hit the overblows so easily, which they can't do on stock harps.
So, I'd probably advise a player who is serious about learning to learn on both customs and out-of-the-box harps. I was never able to play customs in the early days because I was just a kid and couldn't afford them. I started doing overblows after about a year of playing in 1991, but Joe's harps took my playing to a completely new level.
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Aussiesucker
642 posts
Jun 18, 2010
6:15 PM
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I think starting out on a good stock standard harp is the way to go.
In my case I experimented with different brands/ models etc and found not a great deal of difference between Suzuki, Hohner & Lee Oskar. Only problems I had were on fast playing on high holes on D & F harps ie not responsive. I avoided using them up the high end. I tried different ootb harps & same problem. I recently got a Seydel Beta Harp in D (custom from Ben Bouman) & it was totally different- it worked great.
Also since using the custom D I find that my other D harps are now responding better or perhaps its changed my approach.
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Buddha
2095 posts
Jun 18, 2010
6:23 PM
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A Custom Harp is the way to go, especially from me because I offer a free lesson with the purchase of a harp and free "mini lessons" while you wait.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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captainbliss
209 posts
Jun 18, 2010
6:27 PM
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@Buddha:
I know nothing of such things, but I'm guessing a custom harmonica can be set up to be beginner-friendly, blow-out resistant and re-set as the player develops?
xxx
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Buddha
2096 posts
Jun 18, 2010
6:36 PM
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yes, but I just teach them how to play before they even get it. It's the lesser of two evils.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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captainbliss
210 posts
Jun 18, 2010
6:43 PM
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@Buddha:
That makes sense. A bit like having driving lessons on something just fit for purpose before you buy the car you're actually going to drive (not that I can drive, mind you...)
EDIT: If I didn't already have a box full of harmonicas and was starting out again, custom (one or two at a time) + lessons on playing and basic harp care would probably be the way I'd go.
The number of OOTBs I've knackered (needlessly, I now realise) and bought on impulse (only to find out that I didn't really enjoy playing 'em) probably adds up to fine set of custom instruments.
xxx
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 6:53 PM
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captainbliss
211 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:00 PM
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I suppose I'm getting dangerously close to a thread-jack onto "why do harmonica players seem to spend vast amounts of money on amplifiers, microphones, pedals but (it seems) not on the two most important things: (1) a good instrument and (2) lessons on how to play it?"
So I won't do that.
Instead, I'll say that I think the very first harmonica should be a decent (i.e. MB, SP20, LO kind of thing) OOTB, should come with lessons and, if the student is serious, the next harmonica ought perhaps to be a custom.
With more lessons.
And, I think, good lessons > good harmonicas.
EDIT: because I'm pretty sure the quality of the playing makes much more difference the quality of the instrument.
xxx
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 7:02 PM
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Buddha
2099 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:07 PM
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I disagree Capt Bliss.
Last week I gave a lesson to a person that had NO idea how to play it. He didn't even know how to hold it. After the first lesson, he could play single notes with good tone and he could bend draw notes. I had him playing the greek modes.
The next lesson will be blow bending and OBing.
The harp coupled with my lesson got him going on the right foot from the very beginning.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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GermanHarpist
1569 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:14 PM
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Buddha, wouldn't you had been able to teach him the same with a oob harp?
Or rather, what would be the difference if you tought him, let's say, with a harpmaster/bluesmaster?
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 7:17 PM
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waltertore
678 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:16 PM
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I say go with what you can comfortably afford. Look at it as a folly and if it gets you hooked, great, and if not, no big deal. Real talent will rise to the top anyway you go. I was in the dominican republic and saw kids playing baseball with milk cartons for gloves and look how many of them go on to be big leaguers. Kind of like the old blues guys like lightning hopkins that learned on screen wire, broom handles and nails. Walter
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Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 7:20 PM
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captainbliss
212 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:17 PM
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@Buddha:
/Last week I gave a lesson to a person that had NO idea how to play it. He didn't even know how to hold it. After the first lesson, he could play single notes with good tone and he could bend draw notes. I had him playing the greek modes./
Sounds like a case for the benefits of good teaching, for sure, with which I totally, unreservedly and in all ways agree!
/The harp coupled with my lesson got him going on the right foot from the very beginning./
Interesting. What particular benefits did the learner deserve from coupling the lesson with a *custom* harp (as opposed to a decent OOTB)?
EDIT: someone tell me to shut up if it looks like I'm banging on (and on and on) about lessons.
EDIT2: @GermanHarpist:
/what would be the difference if you tought him, let's say, with a harpmaster/bluesmaster?/
We seem to be thinking along the same lines here...
xxx
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 7:21 PM
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Buddha
2100 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:20 PM
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What particular benefits did the learner deserve from coupling the lesson with a *custom* harp (as opposed to a decent OOTB)?"
"Buddha, wouldn't you had been able to teach him the same with a oob harp?"
Of course but the difference is the student can't fixate on the instrument being part of the problem when they can't immediately do things. Make sense?
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 7:21 PM
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Hobostubs Ashlock
787 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:24 PM
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Buddha you would make a great used car salesman:-) That is cool you give some lessons while they wait.
I dont understand the breath control thing.i try and not play hard cant afford to buys harps but i dont hold back much either,I busted a sydel pro soliest and 2 sets of plates in less than 2 months playing,I have 6 LO over a year of daily playing and they are playing great.I read a art.of a very famous player who uses stock SP20's and goes though one in a week and this player is a very famous for harp so i would think he would have good breath control?So i dont understand is it the player or the exsperience or the way you apply the pressure.Or are some players even great ones going to bust harps some?
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 7:25 PM
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captainbliss
213 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:26 PM
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@Buddha:
/Of course but the difference is the student can't fixate on the instrument being part of the problem when they can't immediately do things. Make sense?/
Yes and no.
Yes? The investment the student has made in the instrument may make him/her more likely to trust it and, ever since a friend who owns one of your customs let me have tootle on it, I'll certainly say it's much easier (remarkably so) to play an instrument that works with you (rather than having to work with it, if that makes sense?)
No? IMHO a good teacher ought to be able to guide the student's focus on what is and isn't the problem.
EDIT: although, if the student is serious about learning to play before buying anything and has the money, the maxim "play the best instrument you can afford" is, I think, hard to argue against...
xxx
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 7:29 PM
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GermanHarpist
1570 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:40 PM
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Buddha,... I don't know.. I really don't have the experience. However I would compare it to car racing (and I don't know if this comparison is valid): Of course you could start with a Formular 1 racing car (EDIT: ok... Porsche would be a better example)... it will definitely make you drive faster also if you're just learning to work the clutch, but will it make you drive better? And will it help you to drive better faster? The basics of driving/racing you will also learn in a cart... Once you got the skills down, let's say, to hold the line, then you can go on and drive the faster cars. Of course I'm not saying that you should start your racing lessons in a suzuki mehron. But a top production line VW Golf (=Bluesmaster :) would suffice IMO.
CaptainBliss,... what's the saying..? Ah yes, genius minds... :) lol.
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 7:44 PM
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Buddha
2101 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:46 PM
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I see results in my own students and custom harps.
I have never had a student that didn't own a harmonica before I met him. Almost everyone's first question was "I think my harmonica is broken. This note on the two suck doesn't work" So of course, I check it and verify it's the student.
The student almost always seem to keep the idea in their head that they do not have a good harmonica.
I could be wrong...
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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GermanHarpist
1572 posts
Jun 18, 2010
7:53 PM
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"The student almost always seem to keep the idea in their head that they do not have a good harmonica."
Ahh, that's true,.. For my own (one) student not so much. But the german harmonica forum is full of threads of people questionning the playablilty of their harps. Surprisingly you don't hear too much of it on this forum.
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GermanHarpist
1573 posts
Jun 18, 2010
8:10 PM
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True to get the technique down a custom harp will definitely help. Especially if you want to go into ob fast.
However, i'd be interested to know what you think of my first post in this thread... about developing musicality.
I should add: I'm not saying that the custom won't let you develop true musicianship (and I'm definitely not talking about your students...).
Are these just my own experiences... or is there some validity to this point?
I have to say I was often happy that I didn't have all the possibilities open, because it helped me to try things that I would probably just have skipped. Plus it makes me the more eager to learn the stuff that I play today, because I really had to WORK, to get there technically (but, hey, that's a personal argument and not generally true).
Btw. that's also the reason that I like to use my crappy harps from time to time... just to go back and try to make the crap sound good.
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 8:33 PM
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GermanHarpist
1574 posts
Jun 18, 2010
8:17 PM
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Maybe that's the point in the discussion where we should start differentiating between starting on a custom with and without private lessons.... because I'd think that most people that argue against starting with a custom, learned most of their chops without a teacher..
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 8:19 PM
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Nastyolddog
949 posts
Jun 19, 2010
12:46 AM
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scenario
Ok a learner spends big money on a custom Harp Key of C:)
by some strange querk he Breaks this Harp a few months later,,he can't fork out just yet for a new custom harp,,He goes and buys an OOTB Harp.
can he play the OOTB Harp,,will he Be able to ajust to Playing an OOTB Harp,,wouldn't this be an unwanted
extra Hurdle to over come other than takeing the easy way out first...
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Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2010 12:47 AM
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Kingley
1271 posts
Jun 19, 2010
1:11 AM
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A lot of people simply cannot afford custom harps. You also have to bear in mind that almost every good player around today learnt their craft on out of the box instruments.
So I would say that for the majority of people a good out of the box harp coupled with lessons, either in person, online, or with a book and CD is probably the best way to go.
For those that can afford it, then I'd say by all means go for a custom harp and then get lessons from a good teacher like Chris Michalek, Joe Filisko, Dave Barrett or Dennis Gruenling.
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Paul "Kingley" Routledge
My YouTube Page
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harmonicanick
786 posts
Jun 19, 2010
1:15 AM
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I started playing in the 1960's and then there was very little choice in OOTB harps in the UK
Customisation 'then' was dunk the harmonica in water before you play because it sounded brighter!
I was cynical about custom harps, but have changed my mind. Now i say go with what you can afford.
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Kyzer Sosa
647 posts
Jun 19, 2010
2:08 AM
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okay, i think this is a silly question....
would anyone who is learning how to do something from scratch buy the top of the line item? sure, only if they have gobs of disposable income...
if they cant even play mary had a little lamb, no, they have no need for a custom harp period.
it's giving a 16 year old a bugatti veyron to learn to drive. asinine, unnecessary, and plain ole overkill.
sorry guys. anything else just doesnt make sense to me.
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Honkin On Bobo
316 posts
Jun 19, 2010
2:38 AM
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Kyzer,
I used to totally agree with you on this subject, but now i'm not so sure. Buddha makes an impressive argument that hinges on the fact that diatonic harmonicas were not designed to be played the way we play them. as such, customization would certainly seem to benefit even a beginner.
But i get what your saying....and for the record I play strictly OOTB special 20's....so I guess I ain't that convinced...or i'm broke....one or the other.
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2010 2:47 AM
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Kyzer Sosa
650 posts
Jun 19, 2010
3:02 AM
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bobo... they might not have been designed to play that way, but they do... and almost all of them, for a beginner or even an intermediate, work just fine right out of the box...
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Kingley
1272 posts
Jun 19, 2010
3:09 AM
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"Buddha makes an impressive argument that hinges on the fact that diatonic harmonicas were not designed to be played the way we play them"
Whilst this is true, it's also the case that all the old blues guys were playing their harps in a way not intended (bending notes and in a lot of case playing in 2nd and 3rd position) and they were using stock out of the box harps. Seems to me that they did just fine. After all many decades later we are for the most part still trying to emulate their playing and capture the feel they had.
So you could also argue that if you can't do it on a stock harp then you ain't got no business playing a custom harp.
My personal feeling is that if you can afford custom harps then why not use 'em.
I can't afford them myself, so I learnt (and am still learning all the time) how to customise my own harps. Luckily for me there are many great people in the worldwide harmonica community who have helped, encouraged and advised me on how to do this.
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Paul "Kingley" Routledge
My YouTube Page
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2010 3:54 AM
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Ant138
470 posts
Jun 19, 2010
4:09 AM
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I think you should cut your teeth on a Lee Oskar, Special 20 to begin with. Then maybe move up to a harp around the £40 mark like a Seydel Solist Pro, Promaster etc.. then take it from there.
I got a Custom harp a few month's ago and thats after 5 years of playing.Its a real nice harp but i still go back to my OOB harps.
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hvyj
404 posts
Jun 19, 2010
6:10 AM
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Playing a custom harp DOES make one a better player. The custom harp responds accurately to technique. So, for example, if a player is trying to learn to get accurate 3 hole draw bends or smooth blow bends, it's easier to do with consistency and precision on a custom--you don't have to fight the harp to make those techniques work as you are figuring out what to do. You develop good consistent technique much easier.
Okay, how does this make the player better? Well, after practicing on a custom for a while, you pick up an OOB and --wow!--you can make it do all those thing you used to struggle to make it do before. The accuracy of the techniques you developed playing the custom carries over. But if you hadn't practiced on a custom, instead of developing precise and consistent "muscle memory" you would have still been struggling to make the harp do what you were trying to make it do.
In my case, I had a hard time getting blow bends consistently and having them sound musical. My Buddha harps are so much easier to blow bend that i quickly became very facile and musical playing them. After practicing on the Buddha harps for a while, I can now pick up any OOB harp in any key and hit all the blow bends with control on demand. I was unable to develop that technique without using custom harps.
Btw, my accuracy on the three 3 draw bends on any harp is now much better after practicing on customs for a little while. You more easily learn what to do because the custom harp responds correctly to application of technique, so you spend your practice time refining and strengthening technique instead of fumbling around trying to make the harp do what you're trying to learn to do. I used to think Buddha's claim that a Buddha harp will make you a better player with just one harp was just an advertising slogan, but, IMHO it's actually true.
Okay, I'd been playing harp for quite a while before i got a custom harp, so I'm not a beginner. But i don't know why the same dynamics would not apply, and Buddha does make different grades of custom harps at different price points. i had certain specific requests for my Buddha harps in order to suit my style of play and a beginner won't have a defined style yet. But at any level of skill, it's easier to be accurate and consistent when you play on a better instrument.
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2010 6:19 AM
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strawwoodclaw
64 posts
Jun 19, 2010
6:14 AM
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There is no point learning on a $300 custom harp when you can get a good harmonica for $30 . it would be like a fiddler with a Start
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Buddha
2103 posts
Jun 19, 2010
7:04 AM
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@strawwoodclaw
everybody who says that has never tried a truly great custom harp.
I guarantee you will be a better player with a custom harps if you start. Heck, go buy a stage III from Joe Spiers and try it yourself. I don't need to be part of the equation to prove it.
When I was learning to play my harps were set up by dick gardner and soon after he taught me how to do it. My playing is a product of having "custom" harps from the get go.
It really makes sense for people from all abilities to get a custom harp and with one of mine you get a ton of free lessons if you want them. There are several people on this board who haven't received their harps yet but I meet with them via skype and give them lessons, perhaps one of them will chime in and talk about the overall value of a buddha harp without even having one in hand.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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MP
501 posts
Jun 19, 2010
11:58 AM
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interesting views gentlemen.
when i was learning sax i started on a Selmer Mark VII alto. great horn, though the rage at the time was the Mark VI. i also had a custom Lakey mouth piece.
i found that i had a bit of difficulty navigating lesser horns, but if i used the Lakey with them i was better off.
at this point the only thing i'm certain of, is since i've played customs(a very recent development), nothing matches up and i won't go back to OOBs.
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barbequebob
958 posts
Jun 19, 2010
12:00 PM
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Dick Gardner is a legendary chromatic customizer and one of the very best for those instruments.
MP, I'm not surprised at all.
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Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
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Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2010 12:02 PM
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Joe_L
395 posts
Jun 19, 2010
12:51 PM
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If you earn the money, throw it away on whatever you want. After all, it's your money. Spend it how you wish.
Buy whatever will motivate you practice and play more frequently.
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2010 1:13 PM
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