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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
B--radical or Custom harp.
B--radical or Custom harp.
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MP
478 posts
Jun 17, 2010
3:59 PM
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let's see.....you can buy a custom harp that is in the same price range as the B-rad.
iv'e never played a B-rad, and i'm sure it's a great harp but, what is the advantage of B-rad over a custom?
the customs iv'e played are filiskos (even strange early models with brass covers), sleighs, jimmy gordons, and a lone rupert oysler.
you can get a jimmy gordon for $110, a buddha for about the same as a B-rad(chris, correct me if i'm wrong) and spiers prices are good too.
so...what's up?
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bluemoose
221 posts
Jun 17, 2010
4:11 PM
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It will most likely end up being what are the differences between and B-Rad and customs, rather than advantage of B-Rad over a custom or perhaps more appropriately custom over B-Rad.
My guess is different tools for different jobs.
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ZackPomerleau
905 posts
Jun 17, 2010
4:12 PM
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I believe the Buddha's are $100 and $200. I'd go custom, considering the B-Radical still has the long wait.
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Buddha
2084 posts
Jun 17, 2010
4:18 PM
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if you're going to order from me, do it soon. Most of my back log is finished, my personal issues are mostly resolved and I'm going to raise my prices to $150 and $295
anything ordered by mid next week will get my old pricing and have it delivered by SPAH.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Ryan
304 posts
Jun 17, 2010
4:55 PM
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Buddha, that's a pretty large jump in price (I'm definately not critisizing, you should charge whatever you feel you need to, and I'm surprised most customisers can aford to work for the prices they charge). I'm just wondering if any changes are being made to the Buddha harps.
I think part of the reason Joe Spiers charges around $300 dollars for his stage 3 customs, and is able to do so despite the competition charging under $200, is that he's using NOS reeds that are much better, especially for over bending, and there is a limited supply of those NOS reeds since they are no longer produced. (I know that's not the only reason, I'm pretty sure there are some other extra things he does that most others don't. If I'm not mistaken I think he removes all the the blow reeds so that the reed plate can be filed perfectly flat, just like he does with the draw plate. This is something that adds a lot of extra work, and as far as I know it's something most other customisers don't do).
Are you going to start using NOS reeds? They're definately better (IMHO)than the current reeds. And they're better suited for OBs. I think you said you've done this on special request before.
I hope this doesn't sound like I'm whining about prices, because that' honestly not my intention. I'm just curious. Is the large increase just necessary for you to be able to make it worth the amount of work that goes into the harp(that's perfectly understandable). As others have said in the past, custom harps may seem expensive, but really it's amazing that customisers do so much work, and put in so much time, and are still able to sell their harps for the prices they do.
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Buddha
2085 posts
Jun 17, 2010
5:03 PM
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what the other customizers do and charge has NO bearing on what I do.
I'm always making changes and improving my work. Exactly what I do, what I use and how I do it, is between me and my customers.
If you want a great harp and want to pay less that what I will be charging soon, now is the time to get it. I know exactly where my high end harps stand among the other guys.
You can't go wrong with the Filisko Guild or Joe Spiers.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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MrVerylongusername
1085 posts
Jun 17, 2010
5:05 PM
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DISCLAIMER - I'm an out of the box guy, I do reedwork on golden melodies for overblow playing and that's it. I don't play customs and I haven't played a B-Rad. Not dissing the whole custom harp thing, but what I can do myself is fine for me. Each to his own.
Bearing that in mind, this is my take on the B-Rad:
It IS a custom harp.
Each one is setup by a skilled customiser and leaves the factory in the condition that we wish all harmonicas did. Hence the price, hence the wait.
The big difference is the baseline. The average custom harp is based around the Marine Band. A lot of what you pay for in a custom marine band is putting right what Hohner has got wrong since it started churning them out on an industrial scale; crappy comb, crappy nails, bad riveting.
Then on top of that goes the stuff that really matters, the reed work.
The B-Rad does away with the one whole aspect of customising. The harp parts and assembly having being designed from the ground up, knowing what players expect/want from a harp in the 21st century.
Presumably a straight off the assembly line B-Rad would be better than an on off the assembly line Hohner.
THEN they get setup reedwise.
It's a custom harp.
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ZackPomerleau
907 posts
Jun 17, 2010
5:08 PM
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Except they are supposed to be mass-produced, which isn't happening.
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Ryan
305 posts
Jun 17, 2010
5:16 PM
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Originally I felt the major benefit of the B-Radical over a custom was that B-radical could be purchased and delivered immediately, no waiting period (or at least that's what HH had originally claimed). But from everything I've read, I don't think there's any chance of that happening in the near future(one article said they were only pumping out a few harps a day). They have currently have a waiting period of at least 5 months. The only way they could ramp up production to that point would be to lower the quality standards by quite a bit(which would be a shame, and it would make it not worth $180, IMHO) OR they would have to hire A LOT more skilled technicians to work for them. If things don't change I don't see how he's going to be able afford to continue. Currently, he's not producing these harps any faster than he made his custom MB/GM harps, and these are priced the same as his customs wer. So I don't think he could be making much than what he was making as a harp cutomiser. But the problem is when he was cutomising harps it was just him, but now he has six employees to pay. I really hope he can turn things around. It would be amazing if I could put in an order, and a week later have an extremely high quality, performance ready harp.
Brad is a great guy and he deserves to have a succesful business after all the incredibly hard work and sacrifices he's made. I hope this turns out to be an extremely succesful business. I wish him luck, and thank him for being brave enough to do what he's done. He's attempting to radically change the harmonica for the better : )
Last Edited by on Jun 17, 2010 5:24 PM
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Ryan
306 posts
Jun 17, 2010
5:22 PM
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Buddha, I hope you didn't take my comment as an insult or critisism. I was asking out of curiosity, not as an underhanded way of saying that it costs too much(I honestly don't believe that). I guess I knew it may come across the wrong way and seem rude, and I should have used my better judgement. I have the utmost respect for what you do. I hope there are no hard feelings.
Last Edited by on Jun 17, 2010 5:27 PM
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Buddha
2086 posts
Jun 17, 2010
5:34 PM
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I don't like to talk about what I do but as far as removing reeds on the blow plate, that's something I have always done and it's a lot of work.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Ryan
307 posts
Jun 17, 2010
5:59 PM
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I'm sorry my comment seemed to imply that was something that you didn't do to your harps. I also apologise if it's one of those customising techniques that you think I shouldn't be discussing on an open forum. I didn't think it was a trade secret as it's something tha Joe Spiers has openly discussed on this forum a couple of times. But if you'd like I will erase my post so that the information doesn't continue to spread on this open forum (or if you have a problem with my post staying up for other reasons).
Last Edited by on Jun 17, 2010 6:20 PM
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Buddha
2087 posts
Jun 17, 2010
6:18 PM
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it's no big deal but I did feel the need to say something as if it was only something that Spiers does. I know quite a few guys that do that...
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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HarpNinja
511 posts
Jun 17, 2010
6:51 PM
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1. I am thrilled to be getting my order from Buddha in the near future.
2. Custom all the way...as they are custom to your style...and not a mass produced harp.
3. I have a ton of respect for what Brad is trying to do and if I had the extra money and patience, I'd try won out in good faith.
4. Your wait is probably less for a custom...
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Mike Fugazzi
vocals/harmonica
Website
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Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 2:11 AM
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Joch230
189 posts
Jun 17, 2010
7:52 PM
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I wanted to get at least one exceptional harp at SPAH this year. Originally, I figured that the B-RAD folks would probably have a big booth selling harps and I could pick one up. Looks like that may or may not happen. Then I saw a post from only a year ago that the Buddha harp was around the same price as the B-Rad. If you have the choice between the two at around the same price, I think it's a no brainer. I ordered a Bb and a D Buddha harp to be ready at SPAH. Get a free harp lesson thrown in to boot.
-John
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Todd Parrott
110 posts
Jun 17, 2010
8:09 PM
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As an owner of a B-Radical in A, I still say they are a great harp, and the best harp you can buy out-of-the-box as far as responsiveness and overblows are concerned. However, as I have said many times already, nothing beats a custom harp, because it is set-up specifically for you, the customer. In fact, my B-Radical was customized by Joe Spiers too. This wasn't because it played bad or anything, I just wanted some adjustments made and Joe was curious to check out the harp too. Every player plays differently and will require the harp to be set up for them for optimal performance. The reason that MrVerylongusername probably has such good luck with Golden Melodies is that he's setting up his harps according to his needs as a player, which is basically customizing in a sense. After all, who better understands your needs than yourself? But my problem is that I'm NO customizer, so I pay Joe to handle that part. I have a harp coming from Chris too, so I'll let you know how it turns out also. Chris does great work. It's virtually impossible for Harrison Harmonicas to produce a custom harp right out of the box, because every player is different, but I think what they are trying to accomplish is a great idea and I wish them the best. The B-Radical is the closest thing you'll find to a custom, that's for sure. It does have a nice tone and feel. The tone was what I liked most about it. If a harp has a lousy tone to begin with, what good does customizing do? I use my ears first when I try a new harp (like the Manji). Even if it doesn't respond well, if it has a nice tone then it may be worth adjusting or customizing. I think too many players are hung up on how well a harp plays out the box (I used to be that way too). While this is important, I feel that the tone is the most important thing. Any harp can be made to play better. So far, I've had the best luck with Golden Melodies overall.
And Chris is correct that other customizers remove the reeds form the blow plate to sand it flat, etc. I think each customizer has their own processes that make their harps great. At the end of the day, there will always be a need for custom harps.
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MrVerylongusername
1087 posts
Jun 18, 2010
4:52 AM
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"Originally I felt the major benefit of the B-Radical over a custom was that B-radical could be purchased and delivered immediately, no waiting period (or at least that's what HH had originally claimed)."
"Except they are supposed to be mass-produced, which isn't happening."
Which makes me wonder what changed between them having a finished prototype and going into this kind of production? where is the bottleneck?
Presumably the original intention was a product that needed very little setting up and the reality is one that needs as much setting up as any other harp. Makes me wonder about this whole fpt thing.
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harpdude61
221 posts
Jun 18, 2010
6:13 AM
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Todd, I understand that a customized harp is better, but I agree with Mrverylongusername...B-Rads are custom. THe harp is set to OB and OD. If I order a Buddha harp and tell him I overbend and you do the same...how would our harps differ? The B-rad is supposed to be non-leaky, comfortable, great tone, good volume...etc..etc... all the little things that the great players who designed it want and need.
I guess I could see two possible set-ups... one for overbenders and those that choose not to....so does this mean the B-Rad is no good for those that do not??.....if 5 different people order the highest end customized harps from Spiers, Buddha, or whoever...does this mean they will all be set-up different? I doubt it.
I mean Deak Harp is selling customized harps at HCH to people he just met....so that tells me customization is more general than personal.
Buddha...educate me...If I order your harps, what questions do you ask me before you can start my harp? I not talking about various materials. I'm talking about based on my playing style and technique.
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Buddha
2088 posts
Jun 18, 2010
6:15 AM
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harpdude, please contact me offlist
groovygypsy at gmail
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Todd Parrott
115 posts
Jun 18, 2010
10:50 AM
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harpdude61,
There's really no way a mass produced harp can be a custom, but the B-Radical does play closer to a custom than anything else out of the box. Every player is different, so a true custom harp has to be set-up to fit the player. This is not possible from a mass production standpoint. If I were to let another harp player play one of my customs, they may find that it doesn't fit their style of playing, and that there are things they would change about the set-up. I've also played custom harps that belong to other players and have discovered the same. You answered part of your own question in your post - most customizers will have questions to ask you about your playing, and some will study clips of your playing to try and match the harp to your needs. If Harrison were doing this with every customer, then I would have to agree that they are customs, but instead it seems that what they are offering is what you referred to in your post as "general customization". Don't get me wrong, they're great harps and they do play great out of the box, but there will always be a need for custom harps.
When you get into harps built by guys like Chris Michalek and Joe Spiers, there are steps in their processes that make their harps worth the extra money, but as for their processes and what takes the harp to a new level, that's a conversation you'll have to have with them.
Hope this helps.
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barbequebob
939 posts
Jun 18, 2010
12:26 PM
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If a customizer doesn't ask you any of these questions first, I'd stay away from them. On the other hand, you just give a shrug and say I don't know, which tells a customizer that you're totally clueless about your own playing (and a LOT of players are), then if you're not satisfied, then the problem that you'd have would be YOUR fault, and NOT the customizer's because you'd be asking them to fly blind and that's not a very smart thing to do, and if you do that, you have no business ordering one in the first place.
About a year ago, I got an offlist message on another harp form that he got a custom MB from Joe Filisko some years back and complained the it didn't overblow well, to which I asked him, "Did you tell him first that you played overblows in the first place, which is VERY important before ANY work gets done and if you didn't, then it's not the harmonica's fault and clearly not Joe's fault because you failed to tell him about it and I'll bet you were trying to save money and go for the blues set up, which is cheaper (at the time) and a much less time consuming set up but is LOUSY fo roverblows."
Well, after I sent him that message, his reply was, "I didn't know," and this is a classic example of what the average person's mindset is when it comes to a custom instrument is that it is a slightly better tweaked stock harp set up for the masses, which TOTALLY NOT TRUE AT ALL!!!!
Todd's right in that their will always be a need for a customizer because they're gonna tweak it to a person's own personal playing style and habits, NOT everyone else on the face of the earth, which is what a stock harp is and unfortunately, the average player can't seem to get that thru their heads.
There are needs for luthiers because plenty of guitar players have guitars customized to suit their playing needs and habits, be it a $1200 Fender Stratocaster, $1500 Gibson Les Paul, $3000 Martin acoustic guitar, you name it.
When I was on the phone with Brad last fall, he had told me that these harps would OB very easily out of the box and is setup for a wide variety of styles of playing and eveh he had said there are gonna be players who may have different needs that will have to be addressed by a harp tech/customizer no matter what and that's the nature of the business in regards to stock instruments.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 12:51 PM
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harpdude61
224 posts
Jun 18, 2010
12:42 PM
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Thanks Todd..and Bob makes a good point. It is not customized unless the customizer interviews you and knows your style of play. THAT makes sense!
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Buddha
2090 posts
Jun 18, 2010
12:46 PM
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I build harps two ways... how the player plays now or how the player wants to play.
For the pros, I build for how they play now and the case of a few players like Steve Baker or PT Gazell, who have style vastly different from my own, I took the time to learn THEIR style of playing. That has also earned me the right to call PT nuts for wanting to play jazz with a valved harp.
For most other people we usually talk about where they want to go with the harmonica and what they are expecting. I also give lessons with purchase of a harp and do free mini-lessons before they get a harp from me as that helps me better gauge where a player is at...
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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barbequebob
945 posts
Jun 18, 2010
12:54 PM
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Buddha, that's a good idea and it always amazes me how often the average player thinks customizers or techs of any sort for the matter are freaking mind readers.
In a way, PT's idea isn't that bad if you have problems with OB's, but it's really just a different way to skin a cat and another learning curve.
Harpdude61, that is 100% true and, like I've been telling other players (who too often let it go in one ear and out the other) you HAVE to know where you're playing is and if you don't, you have no business expecting them to read your mind and get the best possible product tailored to YOU.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 12:56 PM
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nacoran
2178 posts
Jun 18, 2010
1:30 PM
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From a purely capitalistic stand point customizers should charge what the market can bare. To broaden that, particularly any manufacturer that has limited production means, that is to say they can only produce X amount, should charge the amount that gets them the most money. That could mean selling one harp for $1 Million. If they can sell 3 harps for $500,000 then they make money. When they get real close to the point where they are selling as many as they can produce the math gets even tougher. You aren't actually aiming for the point when you sell exactly as many harps as you can possibly produce. You are aiming for the spot where your #harps sold x price makes you the most money. And that's even before you start dealing with crazy stuff like depreciation on equipment, whether you want more free time or more money and all the math that just hurts to contemplate.
From that simple perspective, maybe, for instance, Harrison should be charging more. If you can't meet demand, raise the price (after fulfilling all your pre-orders at the agreed on price of course.)
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Nate
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captainbliss
185 posts
Jun 18, 2010
1:41 PM
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@MP:
/B--radical or Custom harp./
Both! If only I had the money...
EDIT: And, someone (BBQBob?) made the excellent point in another thread a while back that it's 95% player 5% harmonica (at least until a level way above mine). I'm still working on the 95%! (Not to mention that I'm obsessed with pre-war-esque pieces at the mo', and that these appear to make fewer style-specific demands on an OOTB harmonica)
@nacoran:
/To broaden that, particularly any manufacturer that has limited production means, that is to say they can only produce X amount, should charge the amount that gets them the most money./
Perhaps, but over what time period? Maybe money and market presence come at first with volume / loss-leaders?
/From that simple perspective, maybe, for instance, Harrison should be charging more. If you can't meet demand, raise the price (after fulfilling all your pre-orders at the agreed on price of course.)/
I guess there are other factors? Time customer has to wait may also affect demand and, over time, an equilibrium may be found?
xxx
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2010 1:45 PM
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nacoran
2181 posts
Jun 18, 2010
1:54 PM
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Yeap. That's why I was an English Major! I'd much rather deal with comma splices than cost overruns.
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Nate
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Kyzer Sosa
649 posts
Jun 19, 2010
2:22 AM
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"I mean Deak Harp is selling customized harps at HCH to people he just met....so that tells me customization is more general than personal."
it tells me something altogether different...
im not sure i understand this one either. who here wouldnt pick a custom harp over a b-radical? show of hands? (kyzer throws chalkboard eraser from across the room, THUMP!)
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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hvyj
407 posts
Jun 19, 2010
10:07 AM
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There are people who work on harps to improve how they play and are very good at it (Antony Dannecker, for example), but they are not doing what a customizer does.
The first Buddha harp i got was made without Chris having actually heard me play. It was very good. It required some adjustments after delivery, but Chris took care of that with no problem. But we got together for a Skype session before the next one was made and after Chris had actually heard me and how i play, the next Buddha harp was damn near perfect--even better than the first. It was made specifically for my style of playing and was made for me to sound the way i want to sound. You don't get that from a Harrison, a Dannecker or a Suzuki Fabulous.
Now, I've been playing for 30 years and have developed somewhat of a defined style. A beginner won't have developed a defined style yet, so i'm not sure how Buddha decides how to build for a player who is in the early stages of development.
The difference between a Buddha harp made after email correspondence about how I play and how i want to sound and one made after Buddha actually heard me play was significant. So, yeah, there's no doubt in my mind that these are true CUSTOM harps, not one size fits all improved performance harps.
i consider my instrument to be my performing set of harps. What does a guitar player pay for a good guitar? Or what does a sax player play for a good sax? From that perspective, a set of custom harps doesn't seem all that expensive. You get what you pay for.
i still like my Suzuki Hammonds, which are now my spare set since i have been using my Buddha harps as my performing set. If i jam a reed with saliva (which occasionally happens on a Buddha harp due to tight tolerances) and i have to pull out a Hammond, I'm not heartbroken. But i can't get the precision, accuracy and response from my Hammonds that I can get from my Buddhas (which are made with GM reedplates and covers). I play better and i actually play differently using my Buddha harps because of the superior overall responsiveness and precision on the bends. You get what you pay for.
And the responsiveness of the Buddha harps in the low keys is absolutely unbelievable--you don't have to collapse a lung to get articulate draw bends. It's a night and day difference to go back to playing an OOB harp in G or A or Ab after playing a Buddha harp. I mean, it's a night and day difference between playing OOB and custom in any key, but the difference is even more dramatic in the low keys--a player can make the custom low key harps do things OOB low key harps just can't/won't do.
Since my Buddha harps are made from GM reedplates, they do have somewhat of a Hohnerish sound, and I'm not particularly fond of Hohners to begin with. But they play so much better than any OOB Hohner and so much better than my Suzuki Hammonds that I don't mind. And for those players who like Hohners, the somewhat Hohnerish sound will suit you just fine.
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2010 10:44 AM
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MP
503 posts
Jun 19, 2010
9:43 PM
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i think kyser got my point.
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DeakHarp
62 posts
Jun 20, 2010
9:56 PM
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kyzer the harps that i made for HCH were made for playing blues .. for avarage action not too tight not too loose ....I also told everyone that got one to play it and let me know if you want any changes done to them before the weekend was out .... Billy James from Aulstraila. took me up on that and he came down to my RV and i adjusted it to his playing .....I make harps for blues players ... im a blues player and i like my harps tight but not too tight ... but i want my harps totaly in tune Octaves and cords dead on .....and all the other complaints about OTB Marine Band harps are taken care of .....If you overblow you usualy already know how to set a harp to do that ...My harps will overblow and i check them for that ...but that is not the reason why i started making custom harps ... i make them to play blues ....call me 217-218-2194 ... i would love to share why i do it .....
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Kyzer Sosa
652 posts
Jun 20, 2010
10:13 PM
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deak, im not dissin' you brother... i can see how it'd look that way...i never looked at your harps at HCH, so i cannot pass judgment on their quality. my point was that each person who delves into customizing has different reasons for doing so, and play differently. therefore, it would stand to reason that you make available, harps that are suited to your style of play. nothing wrong with that at all. it was a comment on the general vs personal comment earlier in the thread. i didnt agree with that...
its no surprise, as others around me at the time can attest, that i thought you took top honors at HCH in the one man band blow-off between you adam and brandon....I liked your energy. additionally, in no way am i saying that your harps are low quality customs. you are priced well below the top tier competitors (buddha, spiers, etc) but you recognize that you havent been in the customizing game as long as they have and have adjusted accordingly.
keep up the good work. bottom line? youre providing a service that is in demand right now, and your 'try before you buy' is proof in the puddin'...
anyone who buys a b-rad, thinking it can touch a custom, is just lying to themselves, or has bought into the hype...
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
Last Edited by on Jun 20, 2010 10:15 PM
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