apskarp
188 posts
Jun 08, 2010
3:50 AM
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@Ev630: I understand your points. But I disagree with what you say about studying the past greats.
My argument (whether it is new or old) is that it would actually be beneficial to STOP studying and listening other harp players. Instead dedicate the time for studying Music. Learn to play the music with the harp. Of course you could take lessons from Levy or whoever, but the goal is to express the music, not harp playing.
Perhaps at some point you will then return to listen to the great harp players - and then you learn more, as you can incorporate that into your own style that you developed by yourself. The point is not really the pushing of boundaries of the instrument, but pushing the boundaries of your OWN musicality. One might also push the boundaries of harp playing in the process, but that's just a positive side-effect.
ps. I apologize for the rude words for you earlier, I just don't like being called banal. (whatever that means) ;)
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5F6H
173 posts
Jun 08, 2010
4:12 AM
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"@5F: Being a good harp player & good musician aren't the same thing. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't the same thing either. You could be a good musician and suck as a harp player just because you lack technique. And you could be technically brilliant harp player but lack musicality."
Yes they are. If you are a musician and you play harp & suck at it...then you are not a good musician. Technical prowess is only valid in a musical context, if you hear a guy and think, "Wow, what he is doing is technically great & difficult...but sounds bad" then it's not brilliant.
If a piece of music needs an explanation as to why it is good, or why the player is "clever"...beyond what is percieved in the execution of the music, then the player has failed. If you stand up with an instrument & play it, the minimum that your audience should expect is that you achieve what you set out to do & sound good doing it, no excuses, no BS, no sales blurb as to why you're a genius but no one understands why what you do is so "hard/groundbreaking/innovative".
It's like these food adds we get on TV here..."this isn't just cheese, it's cheese from the foothills of Mt Vesuvius made from short haired, long nosed, short horned, goat's milk"...fair enough, but if it tastes like puke, it's puke. Provenance & concept are merely BS unless the product stands up to the acid test.
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7LimitJI
176 posts
Jun 08, 2010
4:14 AM
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"Instead dedicate the time for studying Music"
Do harp players not play music ?
Is blues not music ?
Pushing the boundaries ? Why?
Have you mastered every aspect of current playing and are you so bored with the instrument that new ways must be found ?
Or is it that old school blues is actually very difficult to play well, so I'll invent my own style and way of playing ?
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 5:22 AM
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apskarp
189 posts
Jun 08, 2010
5:42 AM
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@5F: Sorry for not being precise.
I meant that one can be e.g. wonderful singer but lacks technical skills to play the harp - ie. sucks as a harpist. But with the singing he can express the musicality beautifully. So I wasn't talking about "I'm a genius but nobody understands me" and crap like that. On the other hand one can copy pretty much anything that is played but can't express genuine musicality of his own. (That's of course a more rare case.)
@7Limit: My point is simply that for many people the technical approach to the instrument can form a hindrance where the main point is forgot - which is the music, not the technique. I base that argument on my personal experiences.
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Buddha
1974 posts
Jun 08, 2010
6:34 AM
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I don't understand this.... you can be a good musician but suck at an instrument. Harmonica is what I am best at but I dabble with several other instruments. I may be a poor guitar player, a fair piano player, and ok bassist but I am still considered and excellent musician.
I don't have the level of technique on the other instrument as I do with the harp but foundationally, my rhythm, timing, groove, dynamics etc are all solid with any instrument I play. I think because I am a decent musician, I have the ability to dabble with these other instruments.
""@5F: Being a good harp player & good musician aren't the same thing. They aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't the same thing either. You could be a good musician and suck as a harp player just because you lack technique. And you could be technically brilliant harp player but lack musicality."
Yes they are. If you are a musician and you play harp & suck at it...then you are not a good musician. "
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Ev630
574 posts
Jun 08, 2010
6:58 AM
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If no one's hiring you to play the bongos because you suck at bongos but kick ass at harp, then you aren't a bongo musician, Buddha.
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Buddha
1975 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:10 AM
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you're confusing player vs musician.
I am a musician, I can make music with anything, it may not be virtuoso level music but it's music.
being a musician and playing an instrument are two different things.
Just because you can whack out a beat on the bongos does not make one a musician. Just because you can bend notes and shake your head on the harp while you jump up and down doesn't make you a musician either.
There are levels of musicians too. I don't mean beginner, intermediate and advanced. For example, Big Walter Horton would get steam rolled if he sat in with 'trane. BW is a blues musician. However, Coltrane could sit in with any blues band and make great music.
I think most of the players found on various forums are simply harmonica players and not truly musicians. You can also be a player and an artist like Jason Ricci. I think Jason is one of the best harmonica players ever and he's a stellar artist but substandard musician.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Ev630
576 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:18 AM
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"For example, Big Walter Horton would get steam rolled if he sat in with 'trane. BW is a blues musician. However, Coltrane could sit in with any blues band and make great music."
Total horseshit.
And I mean that in a positive, nurturing way, intended to encourage you to think HARDER in future.
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Buddha
1976 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:21 AM
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it's not horseshit. Look deeper not harder.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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5F6H
174 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:22 AM
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Buddha, you may "dabble" at other instruments, as do many on this forum, but would you expect a paying audience to listen to you "dabble", would you record your dabblings and offer them for sale, would you exhibit your "dabblings" as a seminal reference for other players of that instrument?
I know musicians who are competent on other instruments, often to the point that they play them professionally, if not necessarily with virtuosity - the difference being, that a good musician will have the humility to judge whether their performance on one instrument or another, is acceptable for an audience.
Likewise, I might sing a song I'm learning/working on whilst showering, or walking to the shops...it doesn't mean that I would wish to be judged on that performance. I wouldn't judge a band on a private rehearsal, nor an abortive studio take either, where their weaknesses on certain material might be highlighted before remedial action.
Come showtime, if one pulls out an instrument, then one is expected to deliver a competent (at least) performance, if they don't then they're not a good musician. I obviously don't expect all multi-instrumentalists to have a similar aptitude for all the instruments that they play, many folks I know may excel at one and simply be competant on others...but there's a big difference between being competent and "sucking at it".
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Ev630
577 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:23 AM
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"being a musician and playing an instrument are two different things"
If you can play it to the requisite level and make music with it, then you are a musician.
I think you're confusing terminology here. You're confusing "Musician" with "artist", or "musical genius", or more likely, "member of the exclusive cool little club that only exists inside Chris Michalek's brain".
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5F6H
175 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:37 AM
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@ Buddha "I think most of the players found on various forums are simply harmonica players and not truly musicians."
If you make music, you are a musician. It's the only qualification. Your perception of what the term musician means is based purely on snobbery.
My aunt, is a musician, she plays piano, she sight reads...she won't play without sheet music, she can't play blues...she's still a musician. Many musicians don't sight read & still make music. A friend of mines father was a professional transcriber, worked with the Beatles, Procul Harum, John Barry etc...some of the most influential musicians of the last 50yrs were simply not "musicians" apparently, according to him!?
BW & Coltrane worked in different genres...it's a pointless comparison, Coltrane did not play Chicago blues better than Horton, Horton would have been a fish out of water in Coltrane's environment too. They were both musicians.
"I think Jason is one of the best harmonica players ever and he's a stellar artist but substandard musician." That's your perception only, I'm pretty sure Jason's audience hear something that they perceive as music. He's an engaging & captivating front man, but he is undoubtedly a musician. These dividing lines in terminology (harmonica player/artist/musician) are irrelevant and intangible.
Where do you stand on Errol Garner?
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 7:40 AM
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Buddha
1977 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:39 AM
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No I don't dabble on stage, I'm a profession musician and would only do such a thing if I were strung out on something and had two whores at my side.
What is your point?
"Buddha, you may "dabble" at other instruments, as do many on this forum, but would you expect a paying audience to listen to you "dabble", would you record your dabblings and offer them for sale, would you exhibit your "dabblings" as a seminal reference for other players of that instrument?
I know musicians who are competent on other instruments, often to the point that they play them professionally, if not necessarily with virtuosity - the difference being, that a good musician will have the humility to judge whether their performance on one instrument or another, is acceptable for an audience."
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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5F6H
176 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:44 AM
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@ Buddha: "No I don't dabble on stage, I'm a profession musician and would only do such a thing if I were strung out on something and had two whores at my side. What is your point? "
My point is that you wouldn't inflict your dabblings to a paying audience, thus your ability to weigh up the situation & provide a reasonable performance makes you a good musician.
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7LimitJI
177 posts
Jun 08, 2010
7:56 AM
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I can sight read music very slowly.
Can entertain you for an hour or so playing boogie woogie, blues and pop tunes on the piano.
Play some scales on the sax.
Play some scales on the trumpet.
Play many chords on the guitar.
Play bhodran
Play djembe
I sing.
But, I ONLY play old school blues on harp in 3 positions.
So, am I a musician or a player ?
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
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Buddha
1978 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:02 AM
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"My aunt, is a musician, she plays piano, she sight reads...she won't play without sheet music, she can't play blues...she's still a musician"
I see where the disconnect between you and I are...
I wouldn't consider your aunt a musician. I would call her a player. I don't believe reading and writing music is necessary to be a musician. What IS necessary is he ability to connect and be a conduit for cosmic vibrations, I think a good musician can fearlessly walk into most musical situations and have something to say an be appropriate.
I think Coltrane would have a better chance at sounding like he fits in with Walter's band than Walter has with sitting in with Trane's band.
I think both are great musicians but BW is only a blues musician and Trane can pretty much play anything. Some may say Trane was a genius musician but I think he's just a product of hard work. If he were a "real" musician genius then there wouldn't be millions of people playing the way coltrane did.
Being a musician has more to do than just playing notes on an instrument. Yo Yo Ma isn't an improvising musician but he IS a musician. Why? Because he can channel and convey emotion through his instrument. He can play with intention.
OK, I have a tonne more to say but I have to get some work done today and I have four lessons to give this afternoon.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Ev630
578 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:07 AM
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"only a blues musician"
Okay. Here we go again.
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Pluto
75 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:27 AM
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EV,
My sentiments exactly.
This seems to be a re-occurring theme in here. We all get different things out of music. Don't you remember our parents saying "you call this music"? I hear parents saying the same thing to their kids who listen to hip hop. Are we to assume "hip hop" isn't art? Art is extremely subjective. Music maybe even more so because its everywhere in our lives.
I personally spend little time listening to classical music. It puts me to sleep. I chose blues years ago because I can identify with it, regardless of the fact I play harp.
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Buddha
1979 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:34 AM
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""only a blues musician"
Okay. Here we go again. "
Before this gets out of hand and you guys start assuming I don't respect blues blah blah blah...
When I said only a blues player, I meant SOLELY or SINGULARLY a blues player.
Your interpretation of my words has to do with your perception of me and what you think my perceptions are...not what I actually mean.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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5F6H
177 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:35 AM
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@ Buddha "I think a good musician can fearlessly walk into most musical situations and have something to say an be appropriate."
I think players like that are so few & far between, I certainly haven't met/heard many, perhaps a handful. I have met an awful lot of musicians with a complete lack of humility who haven't noticed when they haven't fitted in with certain situations though.
"I think both are great musicians but BW is only a blues musician and Trane can pretty much play anything." BW was only a blues musician, Trane was only a jazz musician...he played the music he wanted to play, he didn't play "anything". It's very nice to speculate on what long passed players could & couldn't/would & wouldn't/might & mightn't do...but we're just exercising our imaginations, not evaluating reality.
"I wouldn't consider your aunt a musician. I would call her a player. I don't believe reading and writing music is necessary to be a musician. What IS necessary is he ability to connect and be a conduit for cosmic vibrations," Amazing, without evaluating a performance, you have succinctly categorised & pigeon holed my aunt! So now it's a connection to the cosmos that is the defining characteristic of a musician, do you have a particular kind of aerial for picking up these "cosmic vibrations"...are they like solar flares? Is it incorporated in a hat, or was implanted in your skin during an abuction by little grey men? Quick, scan the cosmos...can you tell what I'm thinking? I'll bet you can & you're probably not the only one, it's got nothing to do with the cosmic vibrations either! ;-)
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Ev630
579 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:36 AM
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"I have met an awful lot of musicians with a complete lack of humility who haven't noticed when they haven't fitted in with certain situations though."
Unfortunately, that's something I've witnessed a lot myself.
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Buddha
1980 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:38 AM
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"I think players like that are so few & far between, I certainly haven't met/heard many, perhaps a handful. I have met an awful lot of musicians with a complete lack of humility who haven't noticed when they haven't fitted in with certain situations though."
That's pretty much the only type of player I play with, it's normal for me. I just saw, Brendan Power do it...dude can play anything. Great musician and artist.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Ev630
580 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:41 AM
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"Your interpretation of my words has to do with your perception of me and what you think my perceptions are...not what I actually mean."
No, actually, our perceptions are based objectively on what you have written on numerous occasions. A trawl of old posts will deliver proof that you have repeatedly characterised the blues negatively and as an inferior musical form.
That's cool - that's your opinion. Just don't pretend we don't get what you've been saying all these years, because then you'd be insulting our intelligence. If you in fact have meant something completely different, then I would suggesting working on your communication skills.
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Buddha
1981 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:46 AM
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@EV630
No, you simply misunderstood and you took my word out of context.
Obviously my playing and knowledge of blues musicians shows my respect for the genre. That doesn't mean I have to like it but I'm not some idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to that form of music. It's "been there done that" for me, I've forgotten more blues licks than half of you guys will ever learn.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Ev630
581 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:53 AM
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Buddha, I know you can tell a blues when you hear it. And I know you can do a reasonable job when called upon to play the blues. Not a first-tier, steeped in the blues, stellar job. But certainly a reasonable, "weekend warrior who doesn't listen to much blues", prog rock/jazz style with adequate tone, inoffensive blues. Respectable, not exceptional or even remarkable.
But that does not negate the fact you have slammed blues and blues musicians as inferior on numerous occasions.
It's okay, it's your opinion. I think it's nuts but I celebrate diversity. Don't try and rewrite history now that you played a gig [refer other thread] and finally "got" that it can be a lot of fun to fit in to what the bandleader ordered, or that it helped you to maybe get on a tour.
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 10:00 AM
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5F6H
178 posts
Jun 08, 2010
8:54 AM
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@ Buddha "It's "been there done that" for me, I've forgotten more blues licks than half of you guys will ever learn." I must have been napping during your mastering of the blues genre...from talking to other blues players about their influences, I guess I wasn't alone. Perhaps, we were awake & you were napping...? Perhaps you should lay off the cheese before bedtime?
You have tangible skills Buddha, but you are pushing the point here.
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7LimitJI
178 posts
Jun 08, 2010
9:07 AM
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I have wondered why I am on this site as I'm not a modern blues harmonica player, but its got blues in the title and there are a few diehards like myself.
Maybe Buddha should ask himself the same question, as its ONLY blues, waaaaayyyy below him.
And, he dislikes the sound the harmonica makes too !!??
Perhaps you should take up another instrument ?
Maybe trumpet. As your always blowing your own anyway ;o)
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 9:14 AM
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Joe_L
351 posts
Jun 08, 2010
9:52 AM
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@Buddha - "Your interpretation of my words has to do with your perception of me and what you think my perceptions are...not what I actually mean."
You been openly looking down on Blues players for years on damn near every harmonica forum/mailing there is.
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Buddha
1982 posts
Jun 08, 2010
10:22 AM
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@joe_l and your point is?
again you are taking things out of context. When I was talking about BW and Trane and said ONLY blues I meant SOLELY blues. What I said was also correct, you guys perceive the meaning based on how you perceive.
Blues is as much fun as watching dog shit turn white. Most of you guys don't have the perspective that I do because most of you only play blues. It would be different if I were some dude spouting about that couldn't play blues, or never studied it, but i have. I can't help that I have a top down perspective, it's just something that happens as you get deep into the music of many cultures.
Blues is boring. You don't believe me, put in the time to learn a few other forms of music and get back to me.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Ev630
584 posts
Jun 08, 2010
10:24 AM
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Blah fucking blah.
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Buddha
1984 posts
Jun 08, 2010
10:25 AM
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that's what I'm saying....nice to agree on something with you.
go play jazz. ;-P
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 10:28 AM
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Joe_L
352 posts
Jun 08, 2010
10:47 AM
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Thank you for attempting to save us from ourselves and our passions. I have seen the light.
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Buddha
1985 posts
Jun 08, 2010
10:50 AM
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prefer the work transgressions but you're welcome. ;-)
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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yogi
17 posts
Jun 08, 2010
11:03 AM
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This is one weird discussion. I try to avoid judgements. if i dont like some music i dont like it. its not the players issue. I just happen to like the blues.
Jazz aint my thing but that doesnt mean its no good.
Budha, i have a couple of issues . Feel free to ignore. You make ready claims about the lack of value in the blues, lack of ability of blues players and , from my understanding of you writings, infer a kind of been there, done that, no big deal view of the blues. Where is this evident?
You clearly can play some pretty awesome harmonica in your style. The evidence is clear, you have willingly shared it on you tube for us.
But, where is this mastery of the blues you have accomplished and moved on evidenced?. Took the time to go through your videos just know and dont see it. Your most recent videos say they are blues , and they seem to be, but they dont show anything more than competence to me.
I make this judgement of you only to raise the question. Can you play the blues?. Not modern blues, not progressive blues just good old fasioned old time acoustic blue. No band, no tricks, no frills, just the blues.
I would certainly be intersted to hear you playing the blues to the level you claim to be able to have done and moved away from. Not for testing you, just to enjoy.
I just like the blues. If you can do it lets hear it. Without stepping up to the plate a feel your position of moral supremecy is somewhat undermined.
On an aside, just checked out your website but its down for repair. You still providing customisng and if so what are the hows and wheres of getting a harp form you?
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Buddha
1986 posts
Jun 08, 2010
11:31 AM
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I'm not a blues guy and haven't been seriously into blues for about 15 years. The most recent blues clips show me playing the most blues I've played in a single setting in about 15 years. I don't have the equipment for hardcore blues and that little 5w harpgear amp is the only tube amp I currently own. I was a blues nut for a little while and even acquired 1959 Bassman, 1966 Deluxe that I thought sounded great.
I gave up blues and amplified music in general after playing a gig few gigs with Lonnie Brooks. The gig that made me quit was a big jam with Lonnie's band and BB Kings band. There were almost a dozen of us on the stage at once and I was pressed up against Ronnie Baker Brook's stack and lost my hearing completely for almost two week and in my left ear for over two months. I almost gave up music entirely but opted to play jazz and other non-amplified music.
My focus isn't blues. It may become my focus if the duo tour comes together but until it does I don't have much time for blues. You'll never see me tour with a national blues act unless it's somebody like Derek Trucks. I just can't risk have my ears blown out again.
I'll never sound like any of the tradition blues guys anymore but I did learn blues and listened to all of the greats at one time.
contact me offlist regarding harps. The new site is being built right now and when it's up my prices are going up too so they will be inline with the prices of the other top notch customizers. I'm not actively seeking orders but I will accept orders as I am nearly finished with my heavy backlog of harps due to some pretty heavy personal issues which are happily resolving themselves in a very positive way.
If you come to SPAH I might blow some blues in the circle or just play whatever but my head is not in the blues at least not now. However, I MIGHT make a video of me and Paris James doing some acoustic blues but he needs to call me.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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nacoran
2039 posts
Jun 08, 2010
11:59 AM
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I think there are a bunch of different skills that go with being a musician. Some of them are absolutely essential, others are useful.
A sense of rhythm is essential. A sense of pitch, a sense of volume, the ability to hear the other instruments and adjust what you are doing, essential. Some way to figure out music, whether you do it by ear, from tab or from sheet music, you need at least one.
Being able to mix music, knowing different genres, some sense of the history of music (at least the style you play), very useful.
The ability to communicate what you are trying to do to other musicians, whether it's writing tab or sheet music or just being able to explain it, really important unless you only play solo, although you can get buy if you partner with someone who can do it.
Knowledge of keys, chords, the names of notes on your instrument... well, that depends on what system you use to communicate with other musicians.
Proficiency with at least one instrument (voice counts), well, that's probably the single most important thing. You'll have to have the other essentials down to be able to do this. It can still be broken down it different kinds of proficiency. Some people can play what they see on a sheet of music, watch the conductor and produce very precise recreations of what is on the paper (or mimic recordings they've heard). Other people can improvise. You need to be able to do at least one of those things. If you can do more than one thing, you'll be more versatile.
Should you listen to the great harp players? You should listen to all sorts of great music. As your musical skill increases you'll learn to listen for new things. You'll notice new subtleties you missed before. Listen to a wide range of music. Listen to music you want to sound like. Listen to music that makes you want to play music. Even occasionally listen to music you hate, to lousy music. Figure out why you hate it. Figure out why it's lousy. Maybe you'll find you hate most music in a genre, but you'll find useful things to take away that you do actually like.
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Nate
Facebook
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apskarp
190 posts
Jun 08, 2010
12:49 PM
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I liked your post very much Nacoran, but I tend to agree with Buddha. To be a Musician you have to be able to connect and be a conduit for cosmic vibrations - whatever that is. Of course it's also a matter of terminology. But if one sees musicians as "the architects of heaven" then there is a big difference between a player and a Musician. Perhaps this is what I have been trying to verbalize here.
I do think that one can be a Musician even if he's not a great player in any of the instruments (including voice). One still might compose music, and that has to be counted in too as it is also a manifestation of that connection. I'm not a great player in any of the instruments, but I'm getting better. Still I have been producing and composing music spontaneously since I was a kid. I don't know where the melodies and rhythms come from, but often it is like channeling somebody else's readily made songs. You could call that the work of subconscious or connection with the divine - doesn't matter for me. I have proof that I can write songs that people like and identify with, I can write lyrics that move people. So my best instrument at the moment is my "pen". I'm working on getting my harp playing to a level where I can express the musicality I have with that instrument. Btw, my favorite blues player is John Lee Hooker. In my perception he had the talent to get very simple tunes and notes and express something genuine with it.
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Diggsblues
341 posts
Jun 08, 2010
12:56 PM
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First of all I think Buddha is an excellent blues player.
I really dug what he was doing and if he chose to
go in that direction he would easily be in the same class
with Jason and I know he would create a unique blues style of his own.
I can see the frustration in people understanding his
experience. I started out in blues but had interests
in a lot of different music. When you hear other sounds
and want to explore them you have to go for it.
I love blues but my father was classical pianist
could improvise in that style better than anybody
I've ever heard. Classical players used to be
trained that way. This all effects you somewhere
down the line in your musical experience.
Back in the 60's we didn't seem to make all of
this division. Ravi Shakar on the same bill with rock
guys. BB king opening for any number of rock acts.
We just called progressive rock. It could be the
Byrds with Paul Butterfield. The cross pollination
of music styles seemed to make the music rich and
vibrant. The guitarist for the Doors was a flamenco
player. All this judgement on music seems strange
to me. Hell the guitar in 8 Miles High by the Byrds
was influenced by John Coltrane.
I think of music as something to splash
paint on from my pallette of sounds.
Telling me what colors to use in my
paintings just doesn't work.
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Buzadero
428 posts
Jun 08, 2010
1:17 PM
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DB,
I love the music and color metaphor.
When I am trying to allow my mind to wander free-form through the harmonica (my masturbatory, no-audience but myself) I almost invariably find myself picturing colors as I hear the notes that are coming out.
Thanks for that.
Now, back to everyone's petty bickering.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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toddlgreene
1425 posts
Jun 08, 2010
1:32 PM
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Buz-does your aural palette contain the colors 'off black' and 'clear'? Mine does.
Sorry. Back to the tennis match.
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Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
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nacoran
2041 posts
Jun 08, 2010
1:32 PM
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Apskarp, I'm perfectly willing to except a pen as an instrument, although Salieri might object. I wasn't trying to make an all inclusive list in one try. I was just trying to tease out some of the different aspects of musicality. Although I don't ascribe religious connotations to the moment when everything comes together in to fluid clarity I certainly understand the moment being discussed.
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Nate
Facebook
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apskarp
191 posts
Jun 08, 2010
11:31 PM
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I thought you would, nacoran. "The moment being discussed" - that really nails it.
There is a wonderful book from Kenny Werner - Effortless Mastery. Kenny emphasizes there the importance of mindstate when you play. Regarding to him it is way more important to express one note with a meditative clarity than to posses thousands of songs without that clarity. (Actually it is interesting viewpoint coming from a pianist, as for me it seems that you can't really affect the note much in the piano, only the volume.) Now, he's one of the best jazz pianists there are, so it's not just some BS from somebody who doesn't have the patience to really work with the songs.
That is something that in my opinion differentiates true Musician from the players. From my own experience I can say that those moments can be brief, they can come when you play alone or in front of the audience, but when you got it you know it. IT is the development of that ability that should be the goal for the musician - technical skills are important so that one can express that "moment", but they are just mechanics. There are players like John Lee Hooker who can express that thing with just one note or melody line. Of course it takes years to master just one note.
Can you learn that thing by listening other players? I don't really know, I suppose you really can't. What do you think?
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Ev630
587 posts
Jun 08, 2010
11:35 PM
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So are you a musician or a playa?
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apskarp
192 posts
Jun 08, 2010
11:49 PM
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@Ev630: I have no desire to make that judgement for anybody else than myself. There are times when I have been so moved by the music I listen that I'm sure that music has "got it". But I can't really be sure whether it was the composer, the instrumentalist or both. Especially if you listen to the CDs. When the composer and player are the same person it is easier to know. And in live situations too. BUT I suppose listening is as vital thing in the process as the playing - actually I would expand the boundaries of Musician to the listeners too. I know people who can listen with an intensity and excitement that makes me jealous. There is certainly a unique connection to the music involved.
When it comes to myself, there are times when I "feel the moment", but most of the time I'm just playing the instrument.
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waltertore
637 posts
Jun 09, 2010
6:19 AM
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I have thought about all this discussion on "blues" this morning. It hit me that the blues business- clubs, agents, record labels, magazines, websites, tend to be very narrow minded in what they will accept. I don't really consider myself a blues player, but when I play, most everyone comments I am real one. This I am told in all black clubs, all white clubs, and everything inbetween. Yet, because of my approach to music, the above mentioned businesses rarely give me the time of day because I don't fit their neat little package. IMO the blues is a very vauge thing that has been pounded into a formula by the business for turning a buck. Real blues are such a part of all american root musics, that it is hard to define them. I hear blues in most all american musics. I wish we could do away with labels and just play music. If people dig it, you come back, if not, you don't. But the way the business is structured now, you have to have a product that can easily be transposed onto a sound/appraoch that is accepted. If not, you end up playing very few choice venues and have to find another way to make your living. Kind of like how the blues started out! Are we possibly ready for a rebirth of the blues???? Walter
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Last Edited by on Jun 09, 2010 6:22 AM
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apskarp
194 posts
Jun 09, 2010
10:16 AM
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Excellent point waltertore!
I have the Martin Scorsese's 7DVD set of Blues. It is a really good trip to the world of blues - where it has born from, what are the influences, different kind of viewpoints to it etc. Actually I remember reading from somewhere that John Lee Hooker had similar kind of viewpoint - there are many kinds of blues, not just the 12/16/32 bar blues. And you can here from many of his songs that he plays the blues from the inside, not just from the common forms.
I think that many of us are actually searching the blues from within and because it doesn't always fit to the business concept of blues it creates conflicting feelings and confusion. The widest viewpoint to the blues is that it is something inside of us that we want to transform to the music. Why do we need the labels? I remember first when I started to listen to the blues and compose songs - those didn't come up as blues songs. I had to actually study the forms to be able to produce songs that fit to it..
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nacoran
2053 posts
Jun 09, 2010
10:44 AM
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Apskarp, I think people can't become a musician JUST by listening to great musicians, but it helps.
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Nate
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Joe_L
354 posts
Jun 09, 2010
10:53 AM
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If you like the music, play it. If you don't dig it, then don't play it.
It's possible to play Blues and never listen to or study any of the great Blues harmonica players of the past. However, it seems like a much more difficult road to travel.
I wish you luck on your quest.
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MP
464 posts
Jun 09, 2010
1:15 PM
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JOE_L ,
being the nice guy you are you didn't add that aside from being a "much more difficult road to travel",
it is a misguided idea to begin with.
in his learning process-Bird slowed down Lester Young recordings on his phonograph.
Last Edited by on Jun 09, 2010 1:16 PM
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Joe_L
355 posts
Jun 09, 2010
1:44 PM
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I'm not really that nice.
If a person wants to play the harmonica like {insert your favorite player}, it's probably a good idea to listen to the sorts of things that {insert your favorite player}listened to.
I understand the advice, but unless one is a solid player, I think it's not really the best advice. We all learn in our own individual way, so I could be completely wrong.
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