I’ve gone back and forth on the whole pedal thing several times: Do pedals improve your amp’s tone or do they just get in the way?
Here’s where I am now: Pedals are okay if you play cheap little guitar amps like the Fender Blues Jr. or other new mass-produced PCB-equipped amplifiers. Some lower-powered amps also seem to profit from some pedals.
But more powerful harp amps with a bigger sound just amplify the pedal’s limitations, to my ear.
I know a world-famous pro harp guy who never uses ANY pedals, and no, I don’t mean EV630. ;-) He doesn’t even use a delay pedal. He told me “Nothing but a harp, mic, cable, and amp. Pedals wreck it.” Most working harp guys I know use only a tad bit of delay.
A good loud vintage-style harp amp has layers of overtones swirling around in the tone. To suggest you should put some kind of tone-altering device in the signal chain is crazy. It’s like putting Heinz 57 sauce on a steak at Ruth’s Chris. It’s a rookie blunder.
I’ve played many pedals and I like some a lot; the BBE Sonic Stomp, for example. The Harp Attack pedal is okay when you are playing straight into the PA, or when you are using a bad guitar amp. I like my Boss EQ pedal and my cheapo Deltalab delay when playing, say, a Fender Pro Jr but never with my Masco or Mission Chicago amp.
What pedals do you use when performing, and with what amp?
I use either a '65 Blackface Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue or a Fender '59 Bassman LTD. The only pedal I ever use is a delay (currently an MXR Carbon Copy).
All pedals colour the sound of an amp and change the tone. That's why I don't use it all the time and sometimes much prefer to go straight into the amp.
I have a kind of love/hate relationship with a delay pedal.
I also never use the reverb on my Princeton.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 10:50 AM
Rick, we've been through this on here a couple times in the past, and I think that this is yet another issue where there is an insurmountable divide between those who passionately love pedals, and those who don't (with a few folks who try to span the gap).
I'm a pedal guy. That's my sound. For the kind of music I want to play, you can't get that sound any other way. Do I hate the harp->mic->amp sound? No way! I love it! For example, I love the way my modded epi VJ sounds with just a mic and cable. Sometimes, that is the sound I want. But sometimes, I need something more. It all depends on the sound I hear in my head, and what I want to sound like coming out of the speaker.
Personally, I could never limit my self to just one sound, or just one group of closely related sounds. For the money that you will pay to get a repertoire of, say, 10 slightly different amped sounds (let's say that's 2 mics and 5 amps. not even counting speaker cabs) you can get a repertoire of say 20-40 widely ranging effects sounds (depending upon if you go for discreet pedals or multifx units). IF your goal is to play music with a wide range of tonal variation, then you are better off spending the money on pedals/fx units. If this is NOT your goal (ie. you are Blues guy, and that's IT), then maybe all the fuss with this amp and that mic and those speakers, is more worth it if you are after THAT tone. Yeah, pure TONE comes from player/mic/amp combo, and certain effects can disrupt that (maybe).
Personally, I like building and fooling with amps, so i have a reasonable collection of DIY and modded ones (I own 5 amps), and I also like building and fooling with mics (I own 6 working mics). But I have these because mic/amp building is another hobby of mine in it's own right.
I have one go-to mic/amp combo that is my base sound, and then I have my RP155 and my blazing fast Linux computer running JACK audio with ultra-low latency DSP effects (any and every effect you can imagine, for FREE) and looping. Those are the tools I use to make 90% of my music.
EDIT: I realize you were just asking for pedal advice, and I certainly don't mean to start a long list of back and forths. My main goal is to nip those kind of comments in the bud saying "we've been through this before, to each his/her own, let's just talk about the pedals we use". So to that end, I suppose only my last paragraph is my answer to your question! :)
I used to use the inbuilt reverb in my Vibrolux/ Super Reverb Clone., and liked it very much at the time.
Now use a Bassman with a Boss DD-2.Set for one big slap back.
I own a Lonewolf delay, but as mentioned in another thread, it darkens the tone too much with the Bassman for my taste.
In the LW's defence, with the right amp, one that is bright and crunchy, it sounds great and does reject feedback far better than the DD2. But does this at the cost of some high end sparkle.
I like using a delay pedal as it does fatten up the sound, considerably. Its on all the time.
Some pedals do get in the way, I'd like one that repeated exactly what I put in, no more ,no less.
I only have two sounds I use, thru the amp, or acoustic via the PA. ----------
Isaaculah, sorry if I'm covering old ground here, and I certainly am not trying to start a fight over pedals. As I said, I go back and forth on this thing. I thought it would be interesting to see what pedals player use with what amps.
UPDATE: Here's something else: I don't care for the sound of reverb with blues harp. I know some players love the old '63 Fender reverb tanks, but I just yawn. What is the argument in favor of reverb?
Thanks...I thought I was just getting asked to do the Friday jam, lol. I hope Jason doesn't mind someone keeping it going! I am not sure who will be there, as it sounded like SPAH wanted to determine that, but it sounds like a couple of people from the board were asked.
The venue is perfect and they want to run transportation. I am excited my band gets to do it as they can cover such a wide range of material. I hope we hear harp in all sorts of contexts!
I have a 5f6a circuit modded for harp (a 5f6h :-) Vintage CM sure element bullet.
list here from closest to amp to mic input.
Use Sonic Stomp (can take it or leave it with this amp, but makes some difference), better with smaller amp.
Lone Wolf Delay v1 (I don't mind the darker tone, but then again I don't set the bass as high or the treble as low as many bassman players do). I just use a bit of delay except on slow ballads and some melodic tunes where I crank it (sort of cheesy, but no way to get that from an amp and people in the audience love that echoed sound).
I have the LW octave (low) and use a touch of octave and some of the gain, that one is a gain pedal just for some solos. It is ok with single notes but muddies up chording (except for power chords with low harps and it just thunders, use it for a song intro).
I have the LW tone pedal, but it is only in the chain when using the crystal element... night and day, probably mostly matches impedance. I have been in one outdoor situation where PA was not functioning correctly and I really needed to crank the amp to get the projection, in that case the gain nob and tone nobs on the tone pedal were useful to get the full volume without feedback and the cut that the sound guy said was needed for me to be heard out in the audience. I was darn glad to be wearing earplugs for that one! It was an old fashioned circular concrete band stand with a 1 foot high concrete lip, about 10 feet off the ground. (can you say sergeant pepper's lonely heart's club band?)
All the pedals have true bypass, and are really transparent when off, so I can easily switch to straight into the amp.
I use a vocal multi-pedal. It gives me a bunch of effects to play around with, but if I'm recording something I record clean and add the effects in after so I have a little more control.
I'm a little sad about the pedal thing for me, i.e., In the past I've found using a POG in a tasteful and measured way for effect, drama, and funk was very audience friendly but that was when I had current production amps (Kinder's "Soulful" and Scott's Mini Meteor) Now that I'm all vintage: Manatone Clio, Premier B-160 (15''s each) and a Premier twin 8 (12'' speaker though) such a pedal imo does not sound audience friendly. I know the remedy would be to also have a newer cleaner amp that can take a pedal as an enhancement but I'm out of financial and experimentation steam. So it's plug and play for me. I do miss my Maxon analog delay which I needed to sell but even that needed a newer production amp like the Soulful to really benefit in an additive way. d ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
p.s. Rick- Do you still go wireless with your mike? And continue to love that system as much as you had been? And if you do not always use your wireless: Why? i.e., If not using it 100 % of the time is it for sonic, set-up hassle, or economic (battery) issues. Thanks. d ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
Dennis, I still like the X2 XDS95 Digital wireless, but I haven't been using it as much. I don't take it to the Sunday blues jam we host because I've learned it's better to take less gear.
I've never heard any noise or compression in this wireless. Analog wireless systems I've tried were terrible. I've tried the Masco and Mission Chicago amps both with and without the wireless, and I can't hear any difference.
But... The wireless receiver is mounted on my pedal board, and since I don't use any pedals these days the wireless is seeing a bit less usage.
"I don't care for the sound of reverb with blues harp. I know some players love the old '63 Fender reverb tanks, but I just yawn. What is the argument in favor of reverb?"
Gary Smith uses one to link his Sonny Jr and Bassman and gets a wonderful tone.
Reverb does thin out your sound, but it makes it cut and be heard.
Again like a pedal that colours your sound. A dark sounding amp will sound good with some reverb.
A brighter or more neutral one may not, and be better with delay instead.
Its down to what your looking for as a player and what equipment your using.
I don't think there is one answer to any of these types of questions. ----------
Rick, I'm with you on the Fender outboard reverb thang--I borrowed a Kendrick RI for a week about a decade ago and I still scratch my head about it sometimes. Gary Smith may be getting a better impedance match for his mic by splitting the signal via the '63, and big amps like that can afford to lose half a step when it comes to thinning out the tone, anyway. RJ Mischo was using a stock '63 RI outboard with his brown Concert and a JT-30 a decade ago, dunno if he still does it at all. Both those guys are at the "grip it & rip it" level anyway, will sound good through most anything.
I think something that's going on with the Fender outboard reverb is that in a sense it gives you a substitute tube input stage, possibly a different input voicing and response than the amp itself. I know a couple guitarists who I think use it partly for that reason, but if that's going on, said input stage doesn't seem to have special virtues for harp.
Onboard BF reverb is another matter. I like the trick where you use a patch cord to take the reverb output to the Normal channel input so that you have both tone and mix control over the reverb. The stock reverb tank is still probably not a great decay length for harp verb, but it's a cool way to bridge channels on something like a BFSR, thick/deep sound, and surprisingly friendly about not feeding back. YMMV but it has been good to me.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 4:45 PM
@Rick - I own a LW Harp Tone+, a Dan Echo and a Boss OC-2. Sometimes, I use the Harp Tone+ with certain mics like a Shure 520DX or a Astatic JT-30 Roadhouse (with the Kobitone element) and my Double Trouble. I like the opportunity to take off a bit of treble and boost the bass, but it is just more stuff to pack.
I prefer a mic, cable and amp. It makes life... easier.
no pedals, but sometimes in a real dead room I use just a touch of analog spring reverb.
I should have said I have used a LW delay for recording, an original sansamp, and back when it still worked well a Maestro Echoplex. But for gigging just plug in and play, same with guitar, I guess I don't like pedals much.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 8:23 PM
Like others, I've gone back and forth on the pedal issue with no clear resolution in sight. In the end, whether I use pedals at all comes down to a combination of convenience, the mic, amp, song, room, and my mood. After accumulating and trying a number of pedals, including octaver (OC-2), chorus, reverb, envelope filter, I've settled on just 3 that I keep with me and use fairly consistently (in this order after the mic, usually a crystal): LW Harp Octave with just a touch of effect; LW Harp Delay V1 (which I don't feel darkens or sucks tone); and BBE Sonic Stomp. All 3 are true bypass so I can switch them out easily. Reverb I decided I don't really like with harp, a small amount of delay sounds much better (to my ear).
I should add that what I've realized is the pedals I (for the most part) don't use are those that change or introduce a new element to the sound (ie, octaves, auto-wah, chorus), and as such are recognizable as "effects"; the pedals I use more consistently are the ones that both by their nature and by limiting the degree of effect they provide serve to augment the "natural" sound of the harp/mic/amp combo in a fairly subtle way. This is what I'm really after.
@ Rick :"A good loud vintage-style harp amp has layers of overtones swirling around in the tone. To suggest you should put some kind of tone-altering device in the signal chain is crazy. It’s like putting Heinz 57 sauce on a steak at Ruth’s Chris. It’s a rookie blunder."
Well, I look at wet effects like the icing on the cake, at jams & situations where you just want to be heard & set up quick, I'm happier without. In more relaxed environments, a complementary delay can fatten & sweeten your tone, stopping some notes from sounding short or clipped. Harp has no sustain (unlike a guitar) and can benefit from a little wet.
If you want reverb or delay live, then there is NO other practical way to get it other than to use a reverb or delay circuit (whether a pedal, outboard reverb, or onboard reverb)...unless you are only ever going to gig in the same tiled bathroom, wooden floored dance hall, or under a particularly nice sounding bridge! :-)
"I know a world-famous pro harp guy who never uses ANY pedals, and no, I don’t mean EV630. ;-) He doesn’t even use a delay pedal. He told me “Nothing but a harp, mic, cable, and amp. Pedals wreck it.” Most working harp guys I know use only a tad bit of delay."
For every guy that doesn't use any wet I'll find you 10 who do (though perhaps not always with pick-up gear). Even when using "a tad bit of delay", you still need to be plugged into the pedal...level of the effect can be adjusted, but if you're in...then your in, there's no halfway.
Tube driven tape delays (& even good SS ones), reverb tanks, etc can soften, warm & thicken an amp (even a good amp) in a way that a pedal cannot. Pedals are normally designed to simply add effect, the outboard reverb tanks/tape delays are effectively single ended amps, stuck between your mic & main amp & can add a pleasing character - Clark, Piazza, Butler, Gary Smith, Mischo...etc, etc, all use/have used such devices at one time or another.
When recording it is pretty typical to add studio wet at the desk (I prefer this method to everyone using their own effects in a session, to keep the session sounding cohesive, rather than the drummer in your earhole & the guitarist down a well 50yards away).
I don't own a pedal. I had a Dano years ago and my guitarist banned it since, frankly, I sounded better without it. I do think a clear pine cab adds a lot of resonance, so who needs reverb?
Having said all that, I liked Harpsucker's delay pedal review so much I am going to get an original LW when I have some pretty money to throw around.
Mostly I think of pedals as things guys who use SM57s and clean amps need. I know, a stereotype, but what are ya gonna do?
Resonance & reverb aren't the same thing...not that one is "better" than the other, or that reverb/delay are always an improvement, but that resonance isn't going to count for much FOH (more pronounced close to).
Tolex Fender style cabs have little resonance, due to thicker, non-floating baffles.
But I really don't see that a resonant cab & wet effect are in any way mutually exclusive...after all even Mike Clark offers a reverb option! :-o
The vast majority of recordings of harp have wet of some kind on them.
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I think some of us sometimes use a little reverb to compensate for a room that has no resonance. If I'm set up with a wall of glass behind me as has sometimes been that case I sure don't want reverb too. Same with a hard floor, big reflective walls, or a wall of glass out in front of you. Most would never think I have reverb "on" that's how I perfer to use it when I do. I don't require harp to have sustain like guitar, (which reverb doesn't give you anyway) if I want to sound like a guitar, I just switch to GUITAR! If 9 out of ten players played through RI bassman, doesn't mean that's the best sound for all, just best for that 9 out of the ten, and why be average.
The pedal I use most is my LW Delay v2. Where I want something spacey and totally non-blues, I trot out a Guyatone MD-2. A LW Octave sometimes sees use, but not much, and in limited fashion. If i'm wanting to go for a leslie speaker sound, I'll use my Dunlop RotoVibe, possibly soon to be replaced with a Hughes and Kettner RotoSphere.
