a friend bought a LW delay when his IBANEZ CD10 DELAY CHAMP died.( i have a CD10 also)
we tried the LW with a variety of different amps(great amps BTW). in every case the LW proved to be a tone sucking piece of junk. the amps sounded great without it, but once plugged in, all the creamy healthy goodness was replaced by a sterile, low fat, light beer sound.
even the danelectro DANECHO is better than the LW.
WOW! Not sure why you say "even" the DANECHO, other than it's low price, because they are popular pedal with guitarists and harp players alike. Although not crystal mic friendly without modification.
I have a LW delay and like it really well, and have not had this experience, except when the battery gets low. Have you replaced the battery?
Last Edited by on May 16, 2010 1:31 PM
Digital pedals eat batteries alive. I heard trumpet player using the Boss delay and it sounded great. It was warm like analog. The Danelectro sounds cold to me. Seems to have some problems with some dirty static sounds from pods or inputs.
Diggs, was the trumpeter with the Boss delay Cuong Vu? He is a jazz musician who gets fantastic amazing tones with that Boss pedal. He plays with my son's jazz orchestra when he's in Denver.
Diggs, Are we both talking about the lavedar colored pedal? I know Dano has three or more different pedals. just curious. I don't use mine for harp, but I like it when I've used it for guitar. And it's the one Gary/Sonny Jr recomends with his amps I believe. JD
"The delay has a true bypass; the gain has been reduced to prevent solid-state distortion and is balanced to have an overall gain of 1x so that the level is the same when bypassed. The warmth comes from the superior bass response, distortion free performance and the filtering which reduces the highs more on every repeat providing the effect of a distancing echo."
Having never tried the Lone Wolf I'm not really in a position to comment. However I have heard similar comments from other people to the ones made by MP.
I have tried the Danelectro Dan Echo (Lavender one). I thought it was a total heap of junk for harp.
The dano I heard was about ten years ago. Sounded ok for guitar Rockabilly. If I remember it had some strange shape and yellow.
The trumpet player was Jacob Lane. He plays with Heartbeats out of Philly. I remember playing opposite them about ten years. They sounded too much like the records. Way more fun sharing the bill with Soul Surivors.
HMMMM, used AC adapter so it wasn't the battery. maybe me and my friend are just spoiled wonks. the danecho is sorta okay on the rockabilly setting but not as good as early ibanez, MXR, and tape delays, in my wonkish opinion.
I use a LW V2 delay through a Cruncher, plus two Harpgears without any problem.. prefer it to a couple of analogues I have owned actually, including the BBE Two Timer. I do agree that the lilac DanEcho sounds cold and brittle though. ---------- Myspace
Worth mentioning in case anyone isn't aware that there are two versions of the LW delay, V2 was introduced due to complaints of the first version sounding too dark IIRC. IMO the V2 is still too dark for my amps/mics/personal tone. The DanEcho I have was modded by Ron Holmes, I can dial in a great tone but when I do it seems to make me more prone to feedback. This looks like a good spot to mention that both delay pedals are for sale:) Joe Spiers
I us the LW delay sometimes, sometimes not - with my Cruncher and Super Sonny. It DOES NOT SUCK TONE. I ALWAYS use a power supply. I used to own a Dan Echo and feel the LW is superior. I wonder if perhaps there is something wrong with your unit? ---------- /Greg
I have the version one and I really like it. I don't use it ALL of the time when I am playing but it really helps when I do. This tone sucking business is kind of befuddling me because mine doesn't do this at all. Check your cords or power supply.
While we're kicking this pedal thing around, any opinions on the Boss RV-3 Delay/Reverb pedal? BTW, I have the first version LW and keep going back to my AD80 through the Cruncher.
MP There can be three reasons why it suck tone. 1) weak old battery, 2) not proper input impedance (what mic do you use? If it's LowZ mic do you use impedance transformer?), 3) it really suck tone, yes. I use mine LW HD with Shure SM57, and audix impedance transformer. I hear noticeable high frequencies sucking, it's really cool for overdriven tone, it helps avoid feedback when amp is loud and crunched, LW HD add some more bass. Try cranking up treble or tone knob, it helps. I think most players, which use bullet mics (which rolls off high frequencies too) and don't use PA at all don't notice this frequency loss, and this delay sounds perfect for them.
When I use PA or clean amp with clean tone (e.g. for playing jazz), I miss these high frequencies, and it sounds muddy for me. So now I'm waiting for my MXR Carbon Copy.
If any of you guys are looking for a harp friendly delay that is NOT DARK, and does not alter tone, try the Wampler Analog Echo pedal. It's not actually analog and it's a delay, not an echo, but it is very transparent, has a useful tone control and other useful control knobs and is true bypass. Wampler is a boutique pedal available through the Wampler Pedals website, and it is reasonably priced.
I actually prefer a darker sounding delay, so I use the MXR Carbon Copy, but the Wampler is a very nice unit. Each pedal is built to order so there is a waiting period after you order one, but the customer service is excellent and the pedal has a FIVE year warranty. The guitar player in my band uses some Wampler pedals and turned me on to them.
Boss pedals and Digitech pedals are NOT true bypass. The BBE Two Timer is true bypass, but I think it sounds very BRIGHT--too bright for my taste. The MXR Carbon Copy is supposed to be true bypass. It's a very nice unit but is definitely dark sounding and compresses the highs a little, which I happen to like. But, YMMV.
Last Edited by on May 15, 2010 9:33 PM
HPG-2 volume max tone 7 Shure Black back JT-30 shell Volume control,thick as mud thats why i pump the tone use volume control on mic to tast,
with LW-1 inline and off it affects the tone, not the volume, sort of squashing or compressing the tone,
yes it does say it will darken the tone but it just ain't dark more like muffeled to me,
i used high grade Lithuim Battery, i bought a $35 powerpack to suit, yes i did take it with me to have the Geek match the right one for me, still squashed still unhappy,
i have a LW-2 after swapping with MBH Brother Luke he has a FC Crystal mic,
back to Me useing the same mic and rig and settings this is the right pedal for my mic I'm still playing with it just yet but Happy so far,
Luke was unhappy with his LW-2 pedal it was to Bright for his FC Crystal,now he Has a LW-1 he informs me he is very happy,
so what i make of this after our Little worldwide comparison test is, the LW-1 is great for crystal mics the LW-2 is great for CR or CM microphones,
one other thing why don't the LW pedal have a duel out let so Players can used to amps it's for harp players, so thats my Lot Bro's :)
That review video by Harpsucker is excellent. Harpsucker has proven time and again that if there is good tone to be wrung from any amp in existence, then he is guaranteed to be able to find it, going straight into the amp. In that video, it is clear the original LW pedal is the superior choice for a great analog sound, and that's Harpsucker's verdict. That makes me think that you may have a problem with the pedal you purchased, rather than the LW model sucking tone.
EV,et al. the pedal belongs to a friend. perhaps it is a lemon. it seemed to weaken the signal or compress it too much. it happens. remember that post of the lemon MANJI? i think the poster was sorin.
The Dan Echo has been notorious for need of modding because of impedance mismatch problems, especially with bullet type mics and they need at least 1meg and the Dan Echo is less than that and that can make them a real noise problem.
The worng power adapter can introduce tons of unwanted noice, and as an example, if you buy a Boss pedal, if you have a digital effect pedal, you need the PSA-120, and if analog, the ASA-120. Even tho they'r eboth 200ma, they are very different and that alone can inttroduce noise and kill anything. Even worse if the required MA needed is, for example, 200ma, and you use an adapter that's 1700ma, that's more than just a noise problem, as the pedal won't really work at all.
Some of the new multi-pedal power adapters solve that problem. I never use batteries with any pedals, especially with a digital pedal because they suck batteries dry after every gig.
The only digital delay pedal I use is a Guyatone MD-2, which sounds more like an analog pedal to these ears. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
"If you don't power effects w/ AC you are asking for problems."
Just curious what other than a dead battery those might be?
BTW: I don't use pedals for guitar or harp regularly, for me they are a novelty or recording device, so in goes the fresh battery the day I use them and I've not had any problems, no ground loops, or hum issues, as I have had with power adapters.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2010 12:11 PM
Low or dying batteries can drastically alter the effect's sound and response.
Certain guitar distortion pedals create a distinctly different sound on a low battery. Some guitar players actually like this so much that VOODOO labs has a multi output power supply that can mimic a low battery. But the performance of other effects can degrade dramatically, unpleasantly and unpredictably on low batteries, so IMHO, AC is the only way to go. It's a reliability issue.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2010 1:08 PM
Popping a fresh battery into each pedal for every gig is a PITA, especially if the effects are mounted on a pedal board. It's also expensive. Also, not all batteries are good out of the box. I power my chain with a Visual Sound ONE SPOT and a 5 output harness and have had no problems whatsoever.
But yeah, I suppose if you have a battery tester, test all your new batteries right before you use them and put fresh batteries in each pedal every single time you play you should be okay--if you have any time left for actual performance AND if you don't play long sets since some digital effects drain batteries really quick.
Also, not all pedals can use batteries. Some REQUIRE AC. I don't actually know how using a mixture of AC powered pedals and battery powered pedals in the same chain affects the sound. Since my MicroPog and my RotoSim need AC, I just power the whole board with AC rather than mix and match.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2010 1:21 PM
well, I think I already said I don't gig with pedals, I use them on ocassion to record with. If I were going to play often with them, a power supply would obviously be the best choice. I have believed that for recording a fresh duracell is the best choice. And yes I do sometimes test them with a Fluke meter. I was asking an honest question, thinking there may be issues that you were aware of since the statement was somewhat open ended. Dead or a weak battery is pretty simple. I've played guitar and harp for well over 40 years, but I could hold all the pedals I've owned in my two hands. I was looking for a little advice from someone that I know has much more experience with pedals. Thanks John. sorry I asked, JD
Last Edited by on May 16, 2010 1:36 PM
So far as i know, any problems would be related to battery failure or weakness.
Btw, I don't use pedals w/ tube amps. I think the pedals mess with the sound of the tube amps and the tube amps mess with the sound of the pedals. Both of my tube amps have on board reverb tanks, and so long as I have some reverb, I'm OK.
My main amp for gigging these days is an SWR Baby Baby Blue acoustic bass amp which has a tube preamp and a solid state power stage. It has 120 watts, very sophisticated semi parametric EQ for almost total control over tone shaping and DOES NOT FEED BACK. The pedal board electronics sound great though this amp, and i need an outboard delay anyway since the amp has no reverb and I don't like to play dry. So the delay stays on all the time and i use the other gizmos if and when I think they add something to the performance. And i power them w/ AC.
In the studio i suppose you'd be okay with fresh batteries and if some digital effect drains the battery I suppose it would be NBD to pop a new one in. It's just that I've learned from experience that the more equipment one has, the more potential there is for problems. So i place a high premium on reliability, especially using a full pedal board, even if it is only a small pedal board. So i figure that using AC power eliminates one potential source of problems.
But you are right that certain AC powered effects used with certain amps do induce hum--and I've had this occur both with AC power provided to a pedal through an adapter and with some hardwired AC only effects. But not with my current pedal board powered with the ONE SPOT. So, yeah, maybe fresh batteries are the safer choice for a studio environment.
Last Edited by on May 16, 2010 2:15 PM
You and I are in agreement on many things, and I was aware of your rigs and how you use them from your postings on harpL, that's how I indentified you so easily here. I play harp dry in most situations, a little reverb in a really dead room. I have a variety of old analog spring reverb units, along with amps that have rev.
I actually own a couple of old echoplexes, but they are both in need of servicing. So in the past two years I've played around with a LW harp delay some and a Dano DE-1 for some spacy guitar tracks.
I prefer simple, I prefer tube amps, and I prefer to plug straight in. I bet you are on the money with your opinion about multiple pedals and tube amps. Even loading down the signal has always seemed to me like way too big of a compromise, so normally I don't. When I do, it's one pedal at a time. Thanks JD
You know,I think the best amplified sound I ever got was when I was just starting to play in the late 70's and I would be invited to sit in with a band that had a 4 or 6 channel hi z board with a Roland Space Echo hooked up to it. I'd go straight into the PA and the sound was great.
Maybe it's the passage of time has made me think I never sounded better, but I can safely say that going through the Roland Space Echo was absolutely fantastic!
Last Edited by on May 16, 2010 2:28 PM
I have tried countless delay pedals, the LW is the most transparent that I have personally tried...so, echoing Greg's appraisal, I can't help but think that the OP has an issue with his particular unit. But I also have to say, that "true bypass" or not, anything that I have ever put between mic & amp affects the sound at least a little.
The issues with the Danecho extend to more than impedance matching, an op amp input can help put some front on the note, but they are still a little woolly (some might say "warm") as far as the effect goes.
Aside from low batteries or a malfunctioning pedal, it seems to me that sucking tone is a very subjective opinion. Many here like the LW or the LW2. Danecho seems to have its fans and detractors. Others prefer no pedal at all. True bypass? Maybe, maybe not. I got a Lone Wolf delay and did not think it was very good at all, but that is just me. The range of adjustment was just too narrow at 300ms I thought my DD-3 (with Keeley mod)800ms was far superior and infinitly more versatile. Randy at Lone Wolf stands behind his no ask money back promise so I returned the LW with no hassle within the 30 day limit. I bought an MXR Carbon Copy which has 600ms, twice what the LW gave me. I like its sound twice as much as the DD-3, and to my ears it has as close to true bypass as I could expect. I seldom use the long repeats or spread out delays but sure like the ability to do so. Every now and then the occasion arises to get crazy and call the whales. For my style and ears the MXR rules. I am sure not everyone agrees and for that I am thankful.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 8:10 AM
Yeah, "sucking tone" may or may not be a hyperbolic assessment, or even a gratuitous slam. I would say that the issue with the LW delays is that quite apart from the treble content of the repeats that is the difference between the original and the V2, Randy voices the LW delays with a bit of vintage roll-off and smoothing of the harmonic content, and the impact of that varies with the mic and amp.
As Mark observes, a pedal always filters the mic signal's harmonic content in the process of "reconstituting" it for the output, same way a speaker is filtering the signal at the other end of the chain, and you can make an educated guess about what the result will be--Nasty hazards such a guess--but you won't know for sure till you plug in & fire up. It's not voodoo, no need to remythologize it, but the variable of human taste means that even if one guesses right about how it's gonna sound, that still doesn't guarantee that a given person is gonna like the result.
Still, I will take MJ to task for saying the LW delay is not "very good at all." It's quite good within its traditional-blues-focused parameters: it doesn't have an 800ms range available like a DD-3, you can't do a John Popper rawk delay like I do sometimes with my DD-3, but it's very effectively variable and plug & play for most people's blues needs if they like how its voicing interacts with their amp/mic. The LW doesn't have wet/dry dual outputs like some delays, which would indeed be cool, but that will make it more expensive.
Back to the voicing issue: I notice it more with cathode bias vintage amps with simple circuits. If there's room in the soundscape to hear it, the combination of a good mic + truly good simple cathode bias amp (SE or push-pull) can have some harmonic content/detail/texture that fixed bias can't match, a gnarly shimmer and crackle that's serious frosting on the tone cake. The LW delays or Tone+ may filter that out a little and smooth the sound more than you like. You may hear the difference if you A/B an AFB+ in transparent mode with those LW pedals on an amp that's got the qualities I mentioned.
I would nonetheless rather use LW delays than a stock Danecho or DD-3: you need that mic buffering if you work your hands at all. But I've stuck with using a mic buffer (Jayphat or AFB+) in front of my DD-3 and Danecho because I want that extra harmonic content and the DD-3 gives me the rock delay & "hold" options.
"What gives," MP, is that Randy has a generous return policy, as others have noted. Ain't an emperor's new clothes situation, just people agreeing to disagree about voicing. Not everybody is going to be happy with a LW delay, but like speakers, one should never pass up a chance to try pedals before you buy, due to the way those filter the signal. And MP, your OP would be more illuminating if you'd list the specific mics/amps, as that would help with the educated-guess process in the future. Although I realize you were kinda busy modifying your HG :-).
My advice to the general harp amp community (not to anyone in this thread per se) is to use those things on the side of your head you thought were dried apricots.
Go watch Harpsucker's video.
Hear the amp without delay.
Hear the amp with five other delays.
Now listen to the amp with the LW delay.
If you think that is sucking tone rather than adding some coolness to it, then give up.
@htownfess I stand corrected in my use of the phrase not "very good at all." I should have stated that it was not good for my taste. As I said in the opening of my statement of opinion, favor is subjective. The Mxr is not inexpensive yet is able to wetten the sound a bit, so I don't buy your argument that to do so in the LW would raise the price. It costs $150, I got the MXR for around $20 cheaper. To each his or her own. Variety is important. If we all used the same gear and sounded the same., who could listen?
@MJ, sorry, I didn't make that argument: I'm talking about wet/dry dual outputs adding expense. Go to Radio Shack and ask them to give you a 1/4" jack for free, see what they say :-). Plus a possible redesign of the circuit/layout to incorporate the active dry output. Definitely would be a redesign and another knob or switch required to add a rock-length delay range setting.
Randy--and maybe his wife and daughter--assembles the LW pedals by hand himself. They ain't made in China. Priced an AFB+ lately? Boutique U.S.-made pedals can't compete on price; they have to try to hit the spot on function.
Nor did I knock variety. Did you read the part where I say I use a DD-3 and a Danecho instead of LW delays?
A refreshing thing about Randall Landry is that he does not get all defensive if people don't like his gear, nor does he want other people to get defensive for him. His stuff does what it does and he's secure in that knowledge. Strengths and weaknesses have been discussed very frankly at the Lone Wolf forum and he's fine with that, will even explain what's going on technically to aid people in making choices. He seems to have learned enough from boutique harp gear history to be determined not to repeat some of it, so he's OK with people not liking his stuff, or people getting by just fine with something less expensive, like I do where delays are concerned :-).
htownfess!!howzit goin'? yes i was busy with the HG and stole a real nice '59 bassman from master volume boy after the fire and explosions.
lets see. the amps were a tubed down older RI BASSMAN, an admiral el84 15 watt? driving a rola smooth cone 12", 1970 PRINCETON(no reverb),50s kalamazoo model one.
the mics were crystals with and without 5meg pots. black and white CRs with and without pots. CMs with and without pots.
like i keep saying..but i'll say it again. (MP SHRUGS SHOULDERS; ezz no my pedo man.
i think maybe my friend used the wrong adapter so there was mismatched miliamps. i believe you can mess up a pedal for keeps that way. we've both been gigging and working so we lost interset in the LW.
i have to back pedal here(pun intended). it's been years since i tried a DANECHO. i think i wouldn't have sold it if i really liked it.
MXR used to make this big green delay with an AC power cord hard wired to its chassis. now those were cool! they were super popular for about 3 weeks. i got mine for $20 bucks from someone quitting music.
Thanks, MP--I think that info supports the point I was trying to make, which is that IMO Randy has achieved a consistent signature voicing across the range of LW pedals, and it's not gonna work for everybody. Sometimes it bothers me with the Tone+ pedal, but I like it with the Harp Attack and Harp Break because it comes across as warmth/lushness, especially through a PA. Not an issue with the Harp Octave because that pedal enhances harmonics so much. Have only used the LW delays on other people's rigs, not enough standard of comparison there. Maybe you guys' LW delay had power supply issues, but there is a taste issue with the voicing. Doesn't bother most people at all, but means the LW delays are not for everybody all the time.
I don't know whether I somehow got an exceptional example, but when I first put a Jayphat homebrew mic buffer in front of my Danecho, I was what is called gobsmacked in Britain. I had no idea that pedal could sound that good--really lush and liquid, but with high-freq detail that made it cut better onstage, not worse. Ditto with an AFB+. DD-3 was less dramatic with the buffers, but still worth doing, regardless of mic. Even the $70 Superlux mic does remarkable things thru the buffered Danecho. Dunno if the onboard input buffer mods people do sound as good as mine happens to be, but the mod could be good value for the money if someone doesn't want to buy another pedal.
I'm sure it's fine with Randy if you like the CD10 better. We gotta go with what gives us what we can use.
I hate pedals and gadgets, but I talked to Mr.Landry over the phone, played some stuff through my rig and he said.."this delay is going to give you more bottom end and I promise you will like it". I bought one. He was absolutely right. No tone or power loss whatsoever...and I use the ac/dc power adaptor he sells too. I have no time to fool around with batteries. I play a shure58 through a fender reissue blues deville with one of the power tubes pulled out (to get the good sound out of it....a Bill Clarke tip). The LoneWolf harp delay really adds to the sound. I used it on gigs all weekend in various places (one being the dreaded outdoor "festival" with a know it all sound man trying to control everything) and I am totally pleased. As someone mentioned on here someplace, I am one of those who shamelessly chases the Rod Piazza sound, note for note, and give him credit where its due. (since I think he is the best alive and I have seen 'em all in a half century of action) This delay gadget has me about as close to it as you can get, I think. I am sure there are many who will challenge most of this, but please remember its my OPINION and what I like to hear..as do the crowds I work for. Regards, Me
Is there anyone who tried vocal microphone to impedance transformer to HarpDelay to PA (DI or no, no matter) or straight to soundcard, without amp, HarpAttack, HarpBreak and other preamp/distortion units? I think this way high frequency loss is obvious. I need delay for such situation too (jazz gigs, gigs with folk singers). I'm waiting carbon copy now for such sitauations.
For overdriven tone, especially with crunched amp (or especialy with solid state amp with harpattack!) Harpdelay sounds perfect for me and less feedback. ---------- http://myspace.com/harmonicaboris
Last Edited by on May 18, 2010 4:35 AM
