I just came across this on youtube and thought you might like it. Its a Video of Joe Filisko and Jim Liban playing Walters Boogie together. It looks like Joe is in his element here with Jim. Walters Boogie starts at 0.33 Sec, Enjoy.
I'm going to see Joe Filisko & Eric Noden Live at the Spring Blues Festival in Belgium this saturday. The morning before the shows, I'll take part of a harp workshop given by Filisko (it's free, you just had to enlist for the workshop via the festival's website). It's gonna be good !
whats with yelling out "yeah!" all the time when the other guy plays? i hear it a lot when two "pros" play together...and i just dont get it...it sounds manufactured. I fully understand getting in the zone and immersing yourself, but it seems that more than one person reacts to it in the very same ways almost like theyre doing it for who ever else is listening an not for themselves...anyone else pick up on this?
Jim Liban may shout a lot, but nails Big Walters tone and style. When you can play that well, I'll happily put up with the over energetic whoops. ----------
@Kyzer I think it's sort've like a tip o' the cap to your fellow jammer, recognition of a well-played/phrased passage. It seems to fit during an improvised blues jam when your feeling the energy of another guy's playing. I know what you mean though, it can seem a bit contrived sometimes. I think it's half feeling it, half politeness.
Filisko is having a great time! yeah! that's what it's all aboot. ---------- I could be bound by a nutshell and still count myself a king of infinite space
Kyzer - I don't think that was forced at all. Jim Liban doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would even realise there was a camera in his face. I have some boots of him playing live gigs from years ago and he's no faker.
at the end of the clip, it shows some stills of Jim.. whats the harp hes plying? I didnt see side vents like the MB, and it looked like it has screws in it like the Sp20? ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
I'm increasingly fascinated and puzzled by these sorts of videos. There's a ritual being staged here--two pros doing their best to dissolve their creative selves into the sound of an ancestor; a kind of battle to prove NOT that one is a worthy successor to the ancestor, but that one IS the ancestor. Or perhaps they're doing the latter because they believe that it proves the former.
My natural instinct is to look for parallels in other parts of the blues world, the pop-musical world as a whole, and the larger world of creative artistry beyond that.
So let's pretend we're anthropologists for a moment. Let's ask some idiot's questions:
1) These two guys are losing themselves in the spirit of Big Walter. Did Big Walter and Carey Bell, or Big Walter and James Cotton, perform the same kind of ritual vis a vis their common ancestors--John Lee Williamson, or Jazz Gillum? If so, please direct me to the recordings. If not, why not?
2) Do black bluesmen the same age as Jim and Joe engage in this same ritual? Do Joe Louis Walker and Kenny Neal, for example, compete in a friendly way on certain recordings to see who can sound closest to....T-Bone Walker? Freddie King? B. B. King? I know that Albert Collins and Johnny Copeland on the 1985 recording SHOWDOWN specifically invoked Hack Wilson, their common ancestor, in the vocal prelude to one song. I don't think, though, that they tried to lose themselves in the closest possible replication of their style. But perhaps some black blues artists do. If so, please direct me to a recording or a video like that. If not, why don't they?
Last Edited by on May 12, 2010 7:59 AM
1. Youtube gives people the opportunity to present performances of people screwing around and having some fun. Dirt cheap handheld video recorders weren't available in the days when Bob Myers, Louis Myers and Junior Wells were hanging around outside of a club trying to see who could sound the most like John Lee Williamson. I know someone who was there.
Cheap video recorders weren't available when Big Walter and Carey Bell were doing their legendary thing. Even if they were available, one may not have felt comfortable shooting video in some of the neighborhoods were those guys were playing.
Fast forward 30 or 40 years...
I've seen Kenny Neal do a bad ass version of "Things I Used To Do" that would have made Guitar Slim proud. He still sounded like Kenny Neal doing a Guitar Slim tune.
Is it on youtube? No.
Ever seen Carl Weathersby? When he decides to play an Albert King tune, you would swear that Albert was in the house. He still sings like Carl Weathersby (which ain't a bad thing.)
Is it on youtube? No.
Why are there no videos of those performances on youtube? I don't know. You tell me.
I know some guys don't like to be filmed or photographed. I can respect that.
2. What is this video? What were the circumstances around the event?
This video is probably from a harmonica workshop at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago. The instructors are playing songs exactly like they are done on the record for an audience that laps that shit up like ice cream on a hot summer day. The audience is a bunch of harp students trying to learn how to play.
You're a harmonica instructor. Can you honestly say that you never see this sort of thing? When you play Thunky Fing, do your students dig it?
You can try to intellectualize this sort of thing, but at the end of the day that video is a couple of harp players playing for a bunch of students.
kudzu.. qusetion 1: i could be wrong but big walter certainly wasnt in the age of making videos of jam sessions. surely he had some ancestral idol he appreciated and copped his stuff to a degree. question 2: i cant answer that one..it would be purely speculation. everyone imitates, two good imitators would surely duke it out for an audience...as for why? i havent a clue. maybe it was asked of them? are they both particularly known for this kind of playing? lots of variables here i would assume...
look at 3:10 of the clip and a bit before... you see the "ah yeahs" Jim spouts out as he bobs his head back and forth into camera view, once even looking directly into the camera (timing his ah-ha to coincide with his image flash)... he bobs his head MORE when the camera's not on him as seen by the poster on the wall before and after it goes to joe..
i think they know they were surrounded by people who got a hard on for em and they hammed it up for the camera.
they could have dispelled the whole thing by adding some beat box in there tho.
a lil phuhhh psss, puh puh puh pssss....puh pssss...and a touch of shizzle goes a long way to not sound like your ancestors... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Last Edited by on May 12, 2010 9:48 AM
you know filisko is a beer nut. Get him a fun Pilsner and he'll love you. ---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Adam, I've always thought you and Joe Filisko were two sides of the same coin. Joe is a blues harp historian extraordinaire, and worships Big Walter, DeFord Bailey, etc. You, on the other hand, while respecting the past, prefer to look toward the future. We need both of you: we need Joe so we never forget our roots, and the innovations and techniques that occurred years ago, and we need you to teach us that we need a (healthy) disrespect towards the old stuff if we want to move on and improve the blues harmonica.
Kingley... yes, indeedy, great harp player (as she listens to Jim Liban play Take Out Some Insurance for the umpteenth time) ---------- Tin Lizzie
Last Edited by on May 12, 2010 7:06 PM
I don't see anything puzzling about it but maybe I am missing Adams point. I thought with Blues & Folk tradition it was all about playing other peoples music & using that as a spring board to take it to another place or to the next level. I definitely don't think they were dissolving there own creativity.It is obvious he loves traditional blues so he was playing it feeling it & somebody was recording it for others to hear. The most original artist have to get there inspiration from somewhere. Van Gough use to copy other artist painting's he definitely was not dissolving his creativity by doing so. Bob Dylan is one of the most original song writers he often likes to sing other peoples songs . I don't think J Liban & Joe Filisko were trying to prove anything they was just enjoying playing the Blues
Last Edited by on May 12, 2010 6:34 PM
Growing up going to a country baptist church, in the 50's and 60's, oh yeahs, amens, and hallylujas, moans and other sounds I can't describe in print from the congregation during a moving sermon were common. That's all that's going on here. He's just letting go. I tend to think Jim may have some country roots, just a hunch. I know nothing about him? But I really like the way he plays.
He definitely plays great, and I absolutely have nothing against being moved by the Spirit.
I do think it's funny (strictly my interpretation), how the whooping appears to have startled the fellas in back but I could be reading way too much into it and I'll certainly get back to my beer.
"I would rather do something that’s a homage to different players, and know that I’m keeping the attention of the audience for the long term, than having my own style for the whole time... Having your own style to me is ego-driven."
@Elwood: Thanks for pointing out that transcendently silly statement of Joe's. Memo to Joe: Having your own style is the whole point! It's a point that was drilled into me by dozens of guys I met in Harlem, but it's a point that goes far beyond race. It's specific to the blues, but it's also a guiding principle of most (if not all) fields of aesthetic endeavor. It's also why I love early Kim Wilson w/the T-Birds--before he got sucked into the retro trap--and why I think Clapton's playing with Cream was fantastic. Creativity, originality, and a willingness to be authentic are marvelous things wherever you find them. They are indeed ego-driven, in the best sense: the drive to individuate. This doesn't mean there isn't a value to those who choose to serve others; Joe exemplifies that value in some ways--in terms of his personal service to other harp players--but his statement above should trouble a lot of people on this website.
@JoeL and Kyser: Of course YouTube wasn't around when Big Walter and Carey Bell were in their prime. That's why I asked for recordings, not videos.
@JoeL: "You're a harmonica instructor. Can you honestly say that you never see this sort of thing? When you play Thunky Fing, do your students dig it?"
I see this sort of thing all the time: that's my point. I see this sort of thing all the time among a certain kind of white blues harmonica player. I've never seen black guys do this--or at least I don't think I ever have. I think the reasons are complex, and interesting, and worth exploring. It's clear that most people here aren't interested in exploring them, and that's fine. I'm giving a talk on the blues at Kansas State this fall and I think I'll make this video the centerpiece of my meditations.
As for "Thunky Fing": Yes, that's my own composition and I do enjoy playing it when I do clinics. And students do enjoy it. Thanks for mentioning this--and highlighting the fact that Liban and Filisko are, by contrast, NOT playing their own original composition here. That's my point, or part of it. I'd love to hear Liban and Filisko doing a duet on one of Joe's original compositions--or on a show tune or jazz classic of a sort featured on Brendan Power's and P.T. Gazell's fantastic album, BACK TO BACK. That's not what they're doing here. They're having fun competing with each other, in front of their students, to see who can most closely "get" Big Walter. Big fun!
"You can try to intellectualize this sort of thing, but at the end of the day that video is a couple of harp players playing for a bunch of students."
Yes and no. The ways that that blues harp pros choose to have fun and impress their students also teach their students what's important. I'm intrigued by this particular ritual, since it so explicitly endorses the "back then" emphasis, the retro focus, that, as I see it, weighs pretty heavily on the contemporary blues harmonica world.
Here's an intriguing scenario for you: two gay black men in their 50s, having fun at the end of voice class they're teaching (a class filled with younger gay black men), compete to see who can sound most like Judy Garland. And they REALLY nail her sound. Nobody participating in this ritual of solidarity sees anything strange about the proceedings. Imitating Judy Garland is just what gay black singers DO. (It's what gay men of all colors do, actually. I'm friends with a gay white man who makes his living as a female impersonator.) So none of the gay black men who see the clip of the Garland-homage-session on YouTube see anything strange about the ritual, either. But this doesn't mean it's not worth thinking about in a serious way. What does it mean that gay black men perform their gay blackness, so to speak, by transforming themselves, in each other's company, into competing facsimiles of a famous white female singer? Surely this means SOMETHING in the context of American race relations--given how many black men were lynched and imprisoned, for example, for the "crime" of having anything to do with white women. The ritual in question surely has SOMETHING to do with all that.
But of course this little scenario I've dreamed up has absolutely nothing to do with Jim Liban and Joe Filisko having a little harmless fun in front of their students--they're not trying to perform their blackness by "getting" Big Walter, they're just a couple of harp players who happen to be white having some innocent fun. The fact that, in the blues world, it's always white guys having this sort of fun and always black elders that they're "getting" is purely incidental. You're quite right. I'm overintellectualizing this. I'll stop it right now. It's obviously time for a beer.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2010 5:53 AM
I've known Filisko since 1991 and he's one of the best players you'll ever meet. He can play a lot more than the traditional blues stuff but he doesn't. Every technique you can imagine, Joey can do to the highest level. On top of that, he's a world-class guitarist.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
I'm sure you're right, Chris. I have no doubt Joe can play a lot more than the traditional blues stuff. It would be good to have an album where he lets his ego go to town instead of sublimating it in the service of all the great old stuff.
"It's also why I love early Kim Wilson w/the T-Birds--before he got sucked into the retro trap"
But if that were the case, we would never have heard any of the GROUNDBREAKING (I know you live for innovation) 3rd position playing that Wilson has been putting out for the last 20 years.
As a former philosophy major (not required), I think we are looking at this stuff way too deeply. These guys are just having fun and it is very enjoyable to watch. I have seen this video at least 20 times, trying to understand and learn the nuances in their approach and rendetion of this tune. I think it would be more fair to these guys to look at their entire work before generalzing and extrapolating philosophical type views based upon this one tune. By the way there is another video on you tube where the bassist and the drummer as well as Jim and Joe have turns in playing BW's boogie. Lastly, one thing that was impressive on this video is the obvious passion that these two guys have, and it was ironic and funny when the other guys in the video did not react as much.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2010 6:49 AM
as for the "yeahs"... i never said they were forced. manufactured, yes...
i can see why it's done. in a way, its a congratulatory whoop for your boy (or girl) whos kicking ass across from you. it is what it is. im just not the kind of guy who would do it, or be hurt if it wasnt done to me by another performer on stage. really, as long as the crowd goes "yeah" thats all that matters to me.
i wont lie. in my newbiness, i will be copping some licks from this vid. but let it be known, im not copping big walter, im copping these two. LOL
Here is a point to consider- back in the days, up until the early 90's even, pro players were able to get by just doing gigs. There were no workshops, videos to buy, not because there was no internet, but because they didn't need to do that. When I was playing full time, and someone asked to learn, I told them to come to the club and listen. That was the classroom for teacher and learner, and if it worked out, they would carry it on outside of the club setting. Rarely was money involved either. Todays pro player is challenged with pay that hasn't risen, and in most cases has declined, steadily over the past 30 years. The cost of fuel has gone up, lodging at least tripled, and the vastness of the media makes for a very dilluted pool of players. There is simply an endless choice of people to see without going out of your house. The old guys never sold records off the stage either. Todays players if they really want to survive in the blues scene need to sell merchandise off the stage and ideally have their own recording facility. THat is about the only thing that has gotten cheaper -making/pressing cds. Now one can do it out of their home if they are creative and skilled enough. It will cost less than a dollar per cd and can be sold off the stage for $15. Todays pro player has to be willing to jump a lot more hoops than the old guys did. The old guys could be themselves - happy, mad, aloof, welcoming. Anyway they came, people still came. Now the pro player has to wear an eternal smile and make sure they offend no one. If they do, they will have their name turned to mud real quick via the internet. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
Not to be disrespectful, Adam, but I listen to a whole lot more Kim Wilson than I listen to you. Maybe you are trying too hard to be innovative.... or maybe there isn't enough oxygen in your ivory tower. ---------- Tin Lizzie
Last Edited by on May 13, 2010 10:21 AM
i kind of get it Adam... i mean, you dont see modern R&B artists doing doo-wap and dressing in matching lavender tuxedos, or hip hop top 40 playing polka in front a teeming pool of high school kids. maybe it is more unique to PLAYING music. classical music is a standard that most musicians are still trained by today. (violin, clarinet, etc) and that shit is OOOOOOLD...
obviously youre seeking out as to why there arent any recordings of BLACK people doing this. good question, and something to research. ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
At the risk of imitating white guys intellectualizing… I do think this is an interesting topic, although a little dangerous as far as touching nerves. Corresponding on-line is tricky business. Some (many) topics are much better communicated in person. Not news to anyone here, I know. Briefly, Adam: “…but his statement above should trouble a lot of people on this website”. I assume it was the quote from Filisko (via Elwood): “Having your own style to me is ego-driven.” More directly to the point and also from the interview: “I would rather sound good with the instrument we already have than to try have my own style and have it be “me me me me me”. Now, many would argue with that, but so what!” Yes, many would argue, even to the point of analogizing the issue over the rainbow. Very funny, by the way. Also from the interview: “It’s cool to have your own sound, but I think few people can get away with it for the long term. I would rather do something that’s a homage to different players, and know that I’m keeping the attention of the audience for the long term, than having my own style for the whole time. That’s just what does it for me. Having your own style to me is ego-driven.”
I can’t say I’m much troubled much by the issue though. Evidently, Filisko’s ego has convinced him that his style is sounding good and paying homage to different players.
Adam - I don't know either of those guys in the video, so I don't know what their motives were when selecting the song they chose to play.
It's not always the white guys having this sort of fun.
A couple of years ago, John Primer recorded a whole CD full of Elmore James tunes. He played slide in the style of Elmore James on a lot of the tunes. John is a black guitar player than worked with Muddy Waters and Magic Slim.
Around the same time, Billy Boy Arnold released a whole CD in tribute to Sonny Boy Williamson, an artist he held in high esteem and met when he was twelve.
When Muddy Waters recorded recorded the LP containing nothing but Big Bill Broonzy tunes was it a tribute? Was he saying he was better than Big Bill or did he play those tunes because he loved them or was Leonard Chess attempting to capitalize on Big Bill's popularity on the folk scene?
When Little Willie Anderson recorded his CD with Robert Jr, Jimmie Lee Robinson and Fred Below was he using those guys because they all played with Little Walter or because they knew how to back a harp player better than anyone else? He covered tunes by T-Bone Walker, Lester Young and Little Walter on that CD.
Johnny Dyer is well known as a guy heavily influenced by Little Walter. You can also hear the influence of Muddy Waters in his vocals.
Mississippi Johnny Waters sang and played like Muddy. Check out the CD with Mark Hummel.
Little Walter recorded tunes by Big Maceo and Doctor Clayton.
Junior Wells recorded Sonny Boy tunes. So did, James Cotton. Carey Bell recorded Muddy Waters tunes. He even used Muddy's sidemen.
Were they playing those songs because they loved them or because they had something to prove? Maybe, it was a little bit of both.
joe_L: You got me to thinking. I backed Mississippi Johnny Waters quite often during the same time Mark did. Johnny was all about the muddy sound and I blew through a bassman and green bullet with him. How about Little Joe Blue - BB King clone on the chilitin circuit back at this same time. I know there were others. Little Sonnyboy, Little Jimmie Reed??? I am not very familiar with thier stuff but remember the names and wonder if they were a copy of the originals. How about this- I remember guys like Wilbert Harrison telling me they knew all the popular songs back then because they would sometimes be called in to sub for the original performer when sick or double booked. People often didn't know what they really looked like due to the lack of media back then. I forget who it was, but somebody told me about how they impersonated guitar slim. Was it Johnny Guitar Watson? My memory fails me. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
Joe_L: If something sells, there will always be a million imitators and a few will rise to the top like these guys and make a living doing it. I wonder what little jimmy reed sounds like. There was a guy in the bay area doing jimmy reed imitations back when I lived there. What was his name?? Isn't one of muddy waters sons doing an imitation of his father as well? Hank williams jr was pushed into being a duplicate of his father in his younger years. Reselling a hit is an easy sell onstage or on record. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
I forgot about Lil' Mud aka Mud Morganfield aka Larry Williams. He looks like Muddy Waters. He vocalizes like him. Big Bill Morganfield is out there, too.
There is another guy, Big Daddy Cade. He sounds like BB King. He plays BB songs. He dresses like BB. He even looks sort of like BB. He has BB's mannerisms. He talks like BB. It can be kind of creepy.
Big Voice Odom used to be known as B.B., Little B.B., B.B. Junior. His name was Andrew.
Last Edited by on May 13, 2010 11:35 AM
IMHO,It's no small feat to get that BW tone like these guys do. I enjoyed it very much.
Adam,are you trying to make a point here? Lately,you've been on a kick about the "traditionalists". Personally,I feel they have one foot in tradition,but have their own unique voices,too. When I hear Wilson,Hummel,Guyger,etc., I don't think LW clone. I think LW style but with their own uniqueness predominating. Is that so bad? I wish I had their skills. They all,at one time or another,make me say: Damn I want some of that!
