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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Wht is so wrong about copying other harp players?
Wht is so wrong about copying other harp players?
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7LimitJI
112 posts
May 09, 2010
7:09 AM
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In another thread Adam makes a point to Bharath copying Little Walter.
What is wrong with copying ??
He has an appreciative audience who want to hear authentic old school blues, and he delivers.
I play in a covers band playing blues.
I do copy other harp players, who I admire, and get a lot of enjoyment from doing it.
It goes down very well with the audience too, who on the whole want to hear songs they know.
If I don't play to what the audience wants, I won't get gigs.
I do a lot of improvisation too, but try to keep it in the style of the song I'm playing.
Why do "old school" players get continually knocked by "Modern Harp players" ??
It is the roots of the blues harp playing we hear today and as such should be revered.
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Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 7:10 AM
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HarpNinja
447 posts
May 09, 2010
7:12 AM
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"Authentic"? I would highly disagree that copying someone lick for lick is authentic. It can be a lot of things, including many of which could be labeled positive, but it isn't authentic.
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7LimitJI
113 posts
May 09, 2010
7:14 AM
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OK. So what is authentic then ??
I don't buy into the , having to have lived a hard life and be black to play blues.
Authentic to me is the sound, the tone, the style.
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 7:18 AM
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HarpNinja
448 posts
May 09, 2010
7:19 AM
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Little Walter playing Little Walter.
I don't mean to sound like a riddle, but copying others (different than learning from others or incorporating stuff from others)is not authentic.
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Nastyolddog
680 posts
May 09, 2010
7:21 AM
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Can't work it out Bro,
i guess Nat Riddles wasn't to worryed about it????
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htownfess
71 posts
May 09, 2010
7:22 AM
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I'm on record somewhere going off on Bharath. I think I did watch the first one of his videos that I came across all the way through, wondering if anything was actually going to happen, but couldn't get through another, if the only thrill was going to be the suspense of whether Bharath would screw up bigtime and leave out a nanosecond of LW's precise recorded delivery of the harp part. He is playing improvised tunes as recitals and the crucial interplay with the band that shaped the original recordings is just not there, can't be there the way he does things. Comics will tell you that it's not the punch line, it's the setup that makes the big laugh, and with Bharath's approach the setup is MIA. The original tunes are four guys having a musical conversation; Bharath's approach is him reciting the harp part with three or four other guys tagging along afterward.
They can still sorta get away with recitals in classical music because classical music is of course usually sheet music to start with, and so very much dependent on the status appeal of its very effective demonstration that you either have or aspire to have enough money to be able to afford to do something which has so little practical utility, the kind of leisure-class demonstration of excess wealth that Thorstein Veblen identified a century ago.
Blues has not got snob appeal and can't afford to be recitals. Nor can it survive as background music to non-shouted bar/nightclub conversation/dancing the way jazz can at club level. Nor is it in the position of bar-band-level country music, supported by new hits off the radio every month. Too many younger blues musicians don't realize the reason why older African American musicians beat songs like "Stormy Monday" and "Sweet Home Chicago" and "Thrill Is Gone" to death: they do it because they're accustomed to playing hits off the radio/jukebox for audiences that knew them as hits off the radio/jukebox, the same way James Cotton would be doing "Watermelon Man" in 1969 or whatever. That original radio/jukebox audience is way too close to gone now, and yet too many newer/younger blues bands are still flogging the same old songs, for audiences who, unless they are stone blues lifers anyway, are unlikely to be moved much unless the band is delivering a performance that is irresistible in its intensity and engagement--and rote playing is the prime enemy of that.
You really want to reach audiences? Jump off the cliff. It's amazing, but audiences can tell when you're really taking chances. They know you’re really in the moment, they get in the moment too. It's up to you to have what it takes to make most of those chances work.
A couple years back, I was watching a video of a tune by a notable young regional talent, fine singer and harmonica player and writer with a good, dedicated band, dressed correctly, doing everything rather well indeed in a way, but there was this young waitress who had to keep crossing the screen on her tasks, not far out of her teens if she was out of her teens, and it struck me that the guy was up there playing the harmonica extremely well, singing strongly and all that, the band was swinging and all, think it was even an original tune, West Coast/William Clarke-inspired, but they weren't taking any chances and were just not doing anything at any point in the song that would grab the waitress, nothing that she couldn't easily tune out. The front man was young enough to be in the age range she'd date and yet he wasn't doing anything musically that was likely to get through to her. The whole band's average age was probably something like thirty, but it could have been a bunch of middle-aged blues schlubs, for all the visceral impact they were achieving.
Louis Myers claimed the LW swing instrumentals made women faint the first time they heard them live, and there's anecdotal support that at least a certain amount of healthy chaos was provoked. I see Bharath's videos and wonder how these performances could possibly grab anyone by the throat, especially anyone under thirty, unless they're harmonica wonks. The thrilling spirit of the music just isn't there at all. He doesn't inhabit the tunes, he just gets through them flawlessly.
Of course it's mindboggling to contemplate how hard Bharath must have worked to memorize the stuff that well, but to me it's even more mindboggling that anyone would have devoted that amount of time, energy, and musical skill to rote rendition when it could possibly have been used to say something of his own.
What Bharath is doing is so different from what a band like the Fabulous Thunderbirds were doing in 1980. Calling 1980 a retro thing misses the point: Turning white blues into real dance music on the national radar for the first time, restoring the bedrock older blues virtues of swing, restraint, dynamics, etc. that had been largely lost in white blues-rock, creating an entire aesthetic of innovation (nobody dressed like that before them, seemed like everybody did afterward), etc. Writing their own material as soon as they could--where would punk music be if you weren't expected to write your own songs about your own experience of life? That's why punk keeps some vitality and resurges intermittently. Where's the element of danger in Bharath's music, except the danger that he might forget a nuance or--gasp--an entire note? There's been safe blues and dangerous blues for a long time now, and the dangerous stuff has a chance to reach any audience. Lester Butler knew that. Part of the danger comes from you taking chances.
Now, someone like West Weston, he gets into the moment, and I'm all in favor of what he does. You will observe that what he does reaches younger people very reliably, if you watch videos of him. There's a difference between retro and retrograde.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 7:23 AM
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Sirsucksalot
213 posts
May 09, 2010
7:27 AM
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Nothing is Authentic. I Don't care as long as you don't say you wrote a song that is actually written by little Walter or someone else. I think if someone is playing "oldschool" harp then Awesome keep it up.
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HarpNinja
449 posts
May 09, 2010
7:31 AM
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"oldschool" harp does not mean copying another artist note for note song for song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since the T-Birds were brought up, Kim Wilson is a great example of "traditional" harp and being authentic. Your comment that nothing is authentic is plain wrong.
By definition "authentic" can mean: not false or imitation.
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7LimitJI
114 posts
May 09, 2010
7:39 AM
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I was hoping this thread would not just be about Bharath, he's just an example of someone copying note for note.
All the harp players I know personally,copy.
West Weston being one of them.
Phrases are learnt then incorporated in different songs, added to with other licks, and voila you have a good solo.
Learning from the great players is recommended by every blues book, video, dvd or teacher I have seen .
My real question, is why this gets frowned upon by so many on this forum ?
Especially as they advocate copying from other instruments eg saxophone
Is this any different from copying harp players?
Like Little Walter, who supposedly himself copied sax and horn licks.
Regarding Lester Butler. Brilliant, King King is played regularly.
But he too, when playing a Sonny Boy number, plays very much in the style of SB, with well known SB licks.
As do many top players Rick Estrin, Kim Wilson etc etc
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 7:54 AM
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Nastyolddog
681 posts
May 09, 2010
7:41 AM
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oldschool" harp does not mean copying another artist note for note song for song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bro's just leave it to us who care for this type of playing we like to keep it alive,
when all is said and done over the years when persons play these songs as they think they should be played
leaveing bit's out,
no one will realy know how they where realy played,
Sonny Boy Who!!!
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Andrew
955 posts
May 09, 2010
8:12 AM
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It becomes interesting when you realise that the greats make mistakes and that these mistakes are welcomed by some of these players and form part of their music. They regard them as serendipities. They are welcome accidents. It is worth deciding exactly which of the notes is the lick and which are the fortunate accidents. If you copy a player's notes right down to the accidents, then that marks you out as a sad bastard. You must make your own mistakes and not someone else's!
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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htownfess
72 posts
May 09, 2010
8:15 AM
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"I was hoping this thread would not just be about Bharath, he's just an example of someone copying note for note."
Well, I believe that was the reason why Adam brought Bharath up in the DeLay thread.
Playing entire improvised tunes note-for-note as though they were pieces of sheet music, that's what I call inauthentic.
This equivocating about the meaning of "copying" needs to stop if this thread is going to accomplish much. Copying an entire three-minute instrumental note-perfect is different from copying a phrase or two per song, or per set.
If you want to discuss Bharath, you are talking about copying entire tunes.
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JDH
18 posts
May 09, 2010
8:21 AM
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Here's something I've noticed about harmonica players since I first entered cyberspace four years ago (yeah, I'm a noob) Ya'all want to talk about being your own man having your own style, having your own approach, and then you turn around and beat up anyone that has a style that isn't personally relevant to you. I agree that the rythym four lack a certain energy and spontaneity, but Bharath has his thing that he's doing, he has an audience, he has obviously worked hard at it, and he may be having the time of his life. What could possibly be the problem?
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 8:23 AM
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Ev630
375 posts
May 09, 2010
8:30 AM
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I'm not a huge fan of note for note recreations. On the other hand, I think some of the guys on this forum who think they are pushing the boundaries are seriously kidding themselves.
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Andrew
957 posts
May 09, 2010
8:35 AM
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I hadn't even thought about the improvisational aspect. I was thinking perhaps of Jimi Hendrix flailing about on stage incorporating whatever sounds came out into his music. Copy them note for note and you sound like a fool.
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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Kingley
1145 posts
May 09, 2010
8:48 AM
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All musicians steal licks from each other and harp players are no exception.
To begin by playing note for note copies is not a bad way to "learn the language" of the harmonica. However to play traditional blues styles and add "yourself" into it is important. Mike's mention of Kim Wilson and the T-Birds is a good example of this. Staying true to the tradition and yet keeping it fresh at the same time.
"I think some of the guys on this forum who think they are pushing the boundaries are seriously kidding themselves."
I agree 100%.
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Joe_L
229 posts
May 09, 2010
9:13 AM
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One of the key takeaways from this forum ought to be, play what moves you and play what you want to play. This forum may be a "modern blues harmonica" forum, but there is little "blues" ever discussed here.
You ought to hear what the traditional guys say about the "modern" blues harp players.
Be true to yourself.
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waltertore
532 posts
May 09, 2010
9:22 AM
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Joe_L: I agree - play what makes you feel good and forget what the world thinks. There is no right or wrong. Is Jason a better harp player than jimmy reed? It is all opinion and the spectrum of opinions can easily overwhelm you when you ask such a question. This is just my humble opinion. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
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7LimitJI
115 posts
May 09, 2010
9:25 AM
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"I think some of the guys on this forum who think they are pushing the boundaries are seriously kidding themselves."
"I agree 100%."
Me too.
There was a quotation from a jazz musician I read
"Before you can break the rules, you have to know what the rules are"
With my band we always learn the original song as closely as possible, then adapt it to suit us.
Playing the foundation of it as closely as possible allows you to improvise more, whilst still maintaining the songs identity.
Using licks and phrases from the original song mixed with your own gives you this.
But the initial process of this for me ,is to learn it note for note.
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
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hvyj
327 posts
May 09, 2010
9:25 AM
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Blues is an improvisational music. The whole point i to make a statement that communicates something that can't be said in words but that other people understand. So, to be interesting, one needs to make a unique personal statement. I find Bharath's playing profoundly boring because he's not saying anything--he's repeating or imitating something someone else said that was recorded a long time ago.
Now, almost all of us steal licks or other musical ideas. But that's okay if we use those stolen licks or ideas in new ways to help us express whatever it is we have to say in making our own expression or our own personal statement. But just imitating statements that have been made by some other artist (who probably played them better) is not "authentic."
To be authentic, you have to play what YOU feel. And even if you use stolen licks or stolen musical ideas here and there to do that, you are still making your own artistic statement. But imitation is just imitation--it's not an original statement of what YOU feel. Why even bother saying it if it's been said before by someone who probably said it better when they originally recorded it? IMHO, Bharath has about as much creativity as your average Elvis impersonator.
Btw, i get hired for gigs specifically because i have an original style. If I just played the SOS copied from old blues records the bandleaders i gig with wouldn't use me.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 10:16 AM
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bigd
110 posts
May 09, 2010
9:45 AM
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Damn I love htown's posts. Even if I don't agree with every point I respect those points as being organic and fresh. Kind of like the harp playing I presume to engage him and play..... Some of my phrasing is a little "different" and the guitar players I enjoy and engage have different phrasing too. In my case though it happened through a kind of attention-deficit-dyslexia-neuro-iconoclasm. I wanted to play what others played note for note as a kid in the Bronx but couldn't (partially because of my self taught u-blocky embouchure too I guess) so I became myself. The internet is tricky and Amusical in some ways. I always hear musicians on youtube that are a million miles above me in talent which - truthfully- depresses me. On the other hand: play me a mid temp minor song with a latin twist and I will cry like one of my twin baby daughters if I can't participate in an additive musical way. It is like a vacuum to my Soul. Anyway I digress. I repeat my thesis: (and it has nothing to do with agreement or disagreement per se) Htown's post galvanize me: Credit where credit is due. d
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Myspace: dennis moriarty
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JDH
20 posts
May 09, 2010
9:46 AM
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"Blues is an improvisational music"
This is not and has not always been the case, some blues are just songs, like any others.
"Why bother saying it if it's been said before by someone who probably said it better when they originally recorded it?"
Some things verbal, and some things musical, bear repeating.
I have criterion that is what "good" blues is to me. That doesn't mean that if music doesn't meet my criterion it isn't blues, it just means I don't enjoy it. I'm not a fan of someone copying other peoples music note for note, and I am unable to even do that, it just isn't in me. But at the same time, what do I care if Bharath or anyone else wants to do that? And who am I to say he isn't playing blues. I watched several of Bharath's videos and I enjoyed them, simply because I think it's remarkable that someone can do what he does. I wouldn't enjoy hearing it over and over. Frankly 90% of the music I hear these days, once is enough. And encouraging him to do something original in a positive way, would be constructive. JD
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Ev630
376 posts
May 09, 2010
9:54 AM
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The people who are soloing on the harp in jazz, prog rock, world and cross genre areas are ALSO using other people's phrases - whether copped from harp players or other instrumentalists or other genres.
Anyone who says otherwise is full of what makes the grass grow green.
The creativity lies in putting it together in your own combination, with your own timing and tone. That's where the expression lies. I don't go for the note for note stuff, but I don't think ANYONE working on the harp today is breaking any new ground. Miles and Coltrane and Bill Evans and John Cage and those guys - they broke new ground. But there's not much new shaking in music these days.
So don't get hung up on it. Play what you need to participate and express yourself.
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Ev630
377 posts
May 09, 2010
9:56 AM
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And I'm with you JDH - who cares if people want to play a kind of music? Good luck to them, I say.
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Jim Rumbaugh
214 posts
May 09, 2010
9:57 AM
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There is another thread on this forum about "experience vs talent". I see a similarity in "copying other harp players"
Some people do not have imagination and just learn to play what they are taught. They need to copy. Some member of th audiance want to hear their favorite tunes that way thet remember them. They want it to sound like the original.
But if you want to do something new, you will not get it by re-hashing what is in the past. You may learn your fundamentals in the past. You may get inspired by the past. But for something new, you need to put your own voice into what you are saying musically.
I think there is a place for both, just realize what you are working toward,
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hermonica
9 posts
May 09, 2010
10:01 AM
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"I think some of the guys on this forum who think they are pushing the boundaries are seriously kidding themselves."
that is true!
One of the members in this thread who tries to be knowledgeable and knows a lot of definitions has this to say about himself
"soulful baritone and ground-breaking harmonica playing"
It is jealousy. Bharath is doing a wonderful job. He is transparent about copying LW and does not claim to break any ground when he clearly can not.
There are Elvis impersonators. Let us agree that Bharath is LW impersonator and wonderful harmonica player.
"One of the key takeaways from this forum ought to be, play what moves you and play what you want to play."
that is a good quote to close with
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HarpNinja
450 posts
May 09, 2010
10:15 AM
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@Nastyolddog - "Bro's just leave it to us who care for this type of playing we like to keep it alive,"
Um, excuse me, but who are you to infer that I don't care for that type of playing? I have posted numerous times about my love/near obsession of Kim Wilson's harp playing. I am also a huge fan of Carey Bell, William Clarke, RJ Mischo, etc. I love blues harmonica. However, my choice is to also play other styles or incorporate certain techniques that maybe aren't the norm.
@EV630 - "On the other hand, I think some of the guys on this forum who think they are pushing the boundaries are seriously kidding themselves"
I think that statement is ridiculous.
I am not standing up for anyone in particular, but there are people on this forum breaking boundaries. That is painfully obvious. Some of those are within traditional blues and some aren't. While maybe other descriptions such as "original" or such can maybe be debated to an extent, the boundary breaking is a no-brainer. Pushing boundaries isn't even a description of someone's merit or worth.
@hermonica, it is nice to see your back to troll the board once again with your curious name and use of perhaps a second language in responding?!
I am sorry buy I instantly say kiss my @$$ to people wanting to troll a board and not share ANY information about themselves at all...I could easily do the same and choose not to. Is it because 1.) you suck or 2.) you are someone with a little bit of harmonica "fame" and don't want the world to see you for who you truly are???
FWIW, I didn't even write that bio and the language used to describe members of the band came from various quotes and conversations from outside of the band. "Ground-breaking" was how a nationally renowned harp player/instructor not on this board described my style. Note that ground-breaking is not synonymous with being the best, fantastic, or even good, lol. But when you're the only person in town doing what you're doing, there is something unique about that.
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Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 10:42 AM
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Ev630
378 posts
May 09, 2010
10:47 AM
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"I am not standing up for anyone in particular, but there are people on this forum breaking boundaries. That is painfully obvious. Some of those are within traditional blues and some aren't."
Mike, to say that merely suggests you haven't listened to enough jazz and world music.
Whatever, I don't want to get into an argument about it, and I like you a lot as a musician. You know my view, so there it is.
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kudzurunner
1421 posts
May 09, 2010
11:04 AM
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@Hermonica:
You're engaging in gratuitous personal attack. Stop.
@HarpNinjaMike:
Two wrongs don't make a right. Cool it a little, please. Please reread the forum creed. This sort of language is precisely what the creed warns against:
"am sorry buy I instantly say kiss my @$$ to people wanting to troll a board and not share ANY information about themselves at all...I could easily do the same and choose not to. Is it because 1.) you suck or 2.) you are someone with a little bit of harmonica "fame" and don't want the world to see you for who you truly are???"
@htownfess: I agree with your long post above. Eloquently put. Critical thinking is heartily welcomed here.
Look, it's quite possible that Bharath actually has an original voice on the harmonica and showcases it at some points in his gigs, and/or in certain videos. So here's my challenge: give me a link to THAT video. At this point I'm completely uninterested in his Little Walter reanimations. He's unbelievably good at them. But that's not nearly enough. He must have more ambition than that. Surely he realizes that the last thing in the world Little Walter would have done was devote his life to copying the recordings of John Lee Williamson.
Copying is an important, even crucial phase in the student's learning process. Relinquishing the perfect copy in favor of the original voice is an even more crucial phase in the artist's creative process. It is true, of course, that there are painters who spend a lifetime creating incredible copies of master works. There's a name for them, and it begins with F.
Now, not everybody that heavily invested in copying an earlier master is engaging in forgery. Some people like that are what you might call work-for-hire people. If they're mediocre, we call them hacks. If they're very very good, we pay them quite a bit--or some people do--and they paint copies on commission.
Yes, they're "artists" in one sense. They're competent, even highly competent professionals. But they're not artists, creative artists, in the other sense.
In other words, if all Bharath ever does is what he's doing right now--the many extraordinary copies of LW--there isn't a ghost's chance in hell that he'll ever end up on anybody Top 20 alltime list of powerful, original voices in the world of blues harmonica.
But I'm sure, as I say, that he's more ambitious than that. Isn't he? He must be. So show me the proof. Tell me where I can buy the recordings that showcase his originality and power. Give me a link to the YouTube videos that I've missed. Not the blowoff videos--they're a step in the right direction, but I want to know what he does when he's in his comfort zone and playing his OWN stuff, they way "Down at Antone's" and "Jumpin' Bad" are Kim Wilson's own stuff. That sort of stuff. Until then, I wish I could say I'm interested in what he's doing, but I'm not. It's been done.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 11:06 AM
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HarpNinja
451 posts
May 09, 2010
11:22 AM
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@Ev630 - I listen to a wealth of world music. My jazz listening tends to be a bit limited, but I am huge Miles Davis fan (well, not the bop or pop stuff) and have even transposed a number of his solos to harmonica.
But I do think that taking ideas not traditional to the harmonica and using them in a way that makes musical sense ie. Little Walter, Paul deLay, etc. is being innovative/ground breaking...really anytime you're doing something musically intelligent and not the norm. I am not a huge forum junky, but if you check out thegearpage.net, every few weeks a harp thread pops up. Mostly they go on and on about how much they hate harp (mostly guitar players over there) and when guys do dig harp, it tends to be the solo from that Ozzy song or how awesome the harping on the Zep records are.
They have no clue what people are doing on harp these days whatsoever. Zero. The generic stereo type is directly applied - and these people are musicians!
It doesn't take much to sound "fresh" on harmonica. That is not to say that that is the only goal, etc, or that it is even musically relevant. I think even in the "trad" blues scene, contemporaries like Mark Hummel, Charlie Musselwhite, etc. have continued to push the instrument forward in a blues context. Look at how 3rd position has evolved in jump and swing blues the last couple of decades. Then there is the whole overblow school.
In following some of the recent posts on 12th position, it would seem most on at least this board, aren't using it. Those who are are doing something different. In fact, there aren't many examples of it recorded. It has been underused compared to other positions. People trying to use that, even if they are just transposing blues riffs are different. They are doing something new. They are breaking new ground relative to the harmonica, how it is played, and what the stereotypes of the instruments are.
Comparing harp to other instruments and how they are used is a bit different. I totally get your point about how just because you're playing something usually played on guitar is that really "new". I guess it depends on perception, etc.
But back to the OP and my initial comments, I don't think the Bharath tribute to LW is really "authentic" blues. That doesn't make it good or bad. I've posted on this board about David Barrett and how much I like his work. His approach is totally centered on learning riffs and construction solos using them in. You learn note for note and plug in when you want. I don't see anything wrong with that UNLESS you are playing verse after verse of exactly what he taught. Taking that vocab and manipulating it, similar to what you said, is totally valid and, IMO, a much more authentic and sincere tribute to the music.
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DeakHarp
19 posts
May 09, 2010
11:44 AM
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Well this is a great thread ... And one that i needed to read ..As far as playing note for note ...I agree ...with Jim some new harp player just dont have the chops to just play what you feel ... so learning songs is a way to get better ... that is true ...I for one tried to play Cotton note for note when i was obsessed ... But i finaly learned real quick it aint easy getting every breath and note and phrasing right ...in fact it is nutz ...And i will be the first one to admit im a lazy guy , when it comes to practice .. Now im not saying i dident play my harp less than 3 hours a day every day ....but i dident try to learn every note on the record ... Just the head and signature hit's and endings .. The rest of the song i just played on top of it while listening to a tune i wanted to cover . And being friends with William Clark .. and Step Son of the great James Cotton .. They always told me .. Deak ill show you anything you want to learn but Don't play my stuff note for note ... You got to let you out ....And i think that was the greatest advice anyone could give me ... Bill also told me to get my own band together you are ready .....I did that for all of the 90's .. till my drinking and other mentions got in the way of my music ... Now sober and Clear headed since 2001 .. and I made my first CD Gateway To The Blues .... almost out of print ...50 coppies left ...I found a new reason to live the life of a bluesman ... my CD is straight up Trad harp ... Old School with pieces of everyone that ever influenced me ... My old School approach will always be in my playing Strictly Tongue Block i like to have the drummer in my playing Rhythm slaps ... But i love all styles of Harp i love the fact that there is Modern Blues Harp players in the world .... Im a verry simply taught harmonica player ... Cotton would beat me up verbaly till i got what he was trying to show me .... and my teaching is somewhat the same way without the verbal abuse ....lol.. But when it comes to harp players that can tell you it is the flatted 5 th ... or did you ever try 8 th pos. those guys are also verry valuable in our comunity ....We are Harpers United in all styles together to keep this little tin sandwich alive ....i just like to play my music kinda like Waltertore .. on the spot 30000000 songs never the same way ...If you ever get a coppie of Litte Walter doing Off The Wall 13 takes of him doing the song in the studio ...I got the tape from Steve Guyger ....That tape is Nutz not one of the takes were the same ... every take it had diffrent hitts diffrent runs even diffrend heads ....you can hear how he was creating it on the spot ... and when you hear the finished product everyone knows verry well ... You can hear "wow" that is the hit he put on the 4 th take and added the hit he used on the 12th take for the ending ...Walter had so many tricks up his sleeve ... That is when i realized .. Walter played off the cuff and it was those moments in musical playing that makes the blues come out diffrent every night ....And that is the way i play off the cuff ... Unsafe Mode ... if ya fall laugh it off and keep playing ... The only way to get over the hump is to play in the unsafe mode ... ya never know when you will have a Moment ....And that is what i call them ... Well i think i got my lerking in the halls out for this week .... Cant wait to meet most of you guy's in MS Hill Co Harmonica here i come ....
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kudzurunner
1422 posts
May 09, 2010
11:54 AM
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Deak, I'm so glad you're coming to HCH. I'm about to have many unsafe moments! The whole event is an unsafe moment. That's OK. The word "happiness" has the phoneme "hap" inside it--as in "happenstance" and "mishap." It means "chance" or "luck." A mishap is bad luck. Happiness is a kind of fortunate chanciness. It's not the stuff you plan for. It's the stuff that you make a space for and, by happy accident, the good stuff actually shows up.
Happiness is a kind of chanciness. Most people don't think of it that way, but it's a useful way of thinking about it.
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Drbeastie
4 posts
May 09, 2010
12:17 PM
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this thread improved a lot after 11
I dont know much yet but
this forum has helped me find many great artists that i didn't know existed and I am greatful for that. At the moment I would be like a dog with 2 tails if I could copy any of the greats. Even picking up a new lick is great. Thank you very much one and all
periodically the forum gets quite vitriolic
personally i prefer it philosophical
" play nicely children "
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MP
232 posts
May 09, 2010
12:20 PM
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who is bharath?
this is the second thead i've seen him mentioned in.
i think he should be allowed to defend himself against whatever heinous musical crime he is charged with.
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Rick Davis
374 posts
May 09, 2010
12:28 PM
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It ain't about copying licks; it's about paying homage to the greats. That is a tradition in jazz as well as blues.
Copying an entire song note-for-note is kinda creepy, but actually... I do it myself sometimes. Occassionally I'll play a song from an old Charlie McCoy album that is his tribute to Little Walter. How's that for inauthenticity?
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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barbequebob
800 posts
May 09, 2010
12:29 PM
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Everyone learns and steals from other people's stuff, but at some point, you still have to draw a line and walk away from that, experiment, and while finding your own voice, it still HAS to fit the groove and feel, and again among this discussion and more than a few others, I often don't see that being mentioned at all.
Did I take from the greats I've listened to?? Hell yeah, but I also did something too many players often NEVER learn to do is that from those licks, I made damned sure I understood how they THINK MUSICALLY so if I want to give you something with their FEEL, I don't have to play them note for note, and yet at the same time, still sound like myself.
There are plenty of big name pros who I won't mention and know of personally who will do a LW number note for note, dynamic for dynamic, etc., but I refuse to do that because it frankly bores the hell out of me, so I'll give you a taste and feel but without the cloning, and one can be a traditonal player quite easily with some work and not be a clone and some players have to do something way away from traditional to not sound like a clone.
If someone sends me a CD to listen to that they just did and I hear them do a note for note rendition of one of their heroes, I'll listen to it, and then put it away and never listen to it again because they're using their licks that they've spent too much time cloning and never really understood learning how they THINK and presented their own interpretation of it, and I've already heard it too many times.
If I get a CD of someone doing one of their hero's tunes, but gives me the groove and feel and isn't a non stop clone job and they still manage to sound like themselves, you've got my ear.
One thing about improvising is that you always risk repeating yourself and it's something that you can over-worry about and wind up stifling yourself musically.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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nacoran
1832 posts
May 09, 2010
12:31 PM
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Follow your bliss. If you like copying people note for note, fine. If creating new stuff makes your heart sing, go for it. Most people are probably going to be somewhere in between. Can you build on LW and play something he did in a way that connects to the modern audience better than what he did? Wow! Now you've got something. Can you turn Britney Spears into blues? It will probably go over well with the audience.
One problem with just playing your own stuff is, until you get popular enough so people know your songs you won't get that magic reaction when a crowd hears the song they've been waiting to hear. I've seen local acts who play the same place over and over. They don't play every song every time, but they play some songs enough so they become favorites. There are some acts now that send people ahead to a new city with free CD's to give away around the venue they are playing. CD's are a cheap way to get people to listen to your music. It's a partial solution to getting people who haven't heard your music familiar with it.
YouTube works too, and there are some tools to geotag videos. I'm not sure how many bands are taking advantage of that. I get different sorts of gratification out of covers vs. originals. Personally, when I do a cover I like to make it my own. That said, I've seen a great Beatles cover band that does the songs the way the Beatles did them. I have a friend who played in a Kiss tribute band. It can be a lot of fun for the crowd. It may not satisfy every musicians sense of creativity, but different people get joy out of different things. If you do something you enjoy and the crowd likes it, what's wrong with that. Personally, doing it exactly the way it was done before isn't for me, but I don't begrudge anyone their bliss.
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Nate
Facebook
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waltertore
533 posts
May 09, 2010
12:41 PM
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DeakHap: I hope we get to meet someday! I listened to your stuff on cd baby and loved it.
nacoran: You are right about people not reconizing originals. When I play people never reconize anything but they usually like the groove. I rarely get people asking me to do covers. I take that as big compliment seeing what I do is a one time song and never to be done again. I had to accept the fact that the crowd will never go through the familar oh's and aahs when I play. When I backed up name players that had hits, the crowd went right to them with the sterotyped responses you see when someone does a familar song. That took some getting use to with what I do. The bottom line is I really can't concern myself with what the audience thinks. I play what has to come out and I feel a lot better when it comes out. We all chose our routes on the path of life. I am thankful I am on one and where I end up on the musical who's who spectrum is of no concern anymore. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 12:43 PM
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Rick Davis
375 posts
May 09, 2010
12:42 PM
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The last harp player to break any boundaries was Howard Levy. There are lots of other players standing on his shoulders and straining to claim that they are stretching the envelope, but I don't hear it. It is stil Levy's envelope.
The last player before Levy to break boundaries was Paul Butterfield, and before him was Little Walter.
I agree with EV on this one. There are some GREAT players here, but not one who has the vision of Levy, Butterfield, or Jacobs.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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MP
234 posts
May 09, 2010
1:33 PM
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kingley showed me a vid of bharath.
i liked it.
i think there may be thousands of players around the world who would just absolutely love to have the ability to achieve such accurate readings of classic tunes. the charge against bharath is similar to the attack the critics had for jazz saxophonist sonny stitt (said he was a bird copyist). the only thing bharath is guilty of is playing what he likes to play. going after him is like going after christelle. pointless. why not take the high road and leave him be.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 1:34 PM
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ol'bosey
4 posts
May 09, 2010
2:44 PM
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Just because all You hear from Bharath is Little Walter,doesn't mean the guy can't play in a different context. He's playing what He loves to play. I don't think He would claim or consider Himself a trailblazer.
I think He would consider Himself a "student of the blues",or quite possibly a "historian" who wears His heart on His sleeve and I love that.
I think We need people like Bharath to keep reminding us of the past,and what and incredible legacy We have in blues music...So much is forgotten and disposed of in this world.
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Joe_L
230 posts
May 09, 2010
3:01 PM
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Regarding Bharath:
I've watched some of Bharath's videos and found them boring. I've watched a few others and enjoyed them. The video that I enjoyed the most was a 7:30 minute version of Little Walter's Blue Lights. On the record, Little Walter couldn't do it for seven minutes because of the constraint of 45 or 78 rpm records. He was true to the spirit of Little Walter, but he had to do other stuff. It was enjoyable.
I've heard far worse harp playing than what Bharath does. Would I go see him? Probably a couple of times to see if I like what he is doing.
I give most people a couple of chances. I've got a list of people that I like listening to and people I don't dig. Some of the people on the list of players I won't go see would surprise people.
Regarding copying: Blues is a traditional folk music. It's handed down from generation to generation. A person learns from the previous generation and then puts their own stamp on it. Some people are original thinkers. Some are not. People who aren't necessarily original thinkers can still make enjoyable music.
For example, people used to knock Little Willie Anderson for being a clone of Little Walter. I saw Willie a lot of times. He played a lot of Little Walter's material. He was a really good harp player. I saw him a lot of times being backed by the Aces and it was enjoyable.
Not everyone who plays music expects to change it.
Playing music is supposed to be fun. If it isn't fun, you're better off wasting your time doing something you enjoy. Life is way too short. Play what you want to play.
Do you play for adulation of critics or do you play because you love it?
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Blueharper
113 posts
May 09, 2010
4:24 PM
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Deak, send some cds to cdbaby.I just placed an order!
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captainbliss
76 posts
May 09, 2010
4:58 PM
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@7LimitJI:
/What is wrong with copying ??/
IMHO...
Nothing if one is doing something that feels genuinely and musically meaningful.
Everything if one is copying because one thinks that that's what one HAS to do for whatever reason.
Also..
Copying what?
What makes a piece of music that piece of music is (for me at least!) brain-hurting-ly complex...
xxx
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MP
235 posts
May 09, 2010
5:23 PM
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doesn't anyone feel the least bit sheepish for the unnecessary,uncalled for, negative criticism of a man-a fine player by the way; whom has done no one any harm?
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Nastyolddog
682 posts
May 09, 2010
5:31 PM
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MP Bro I'm with you man,
it's down right gutless to speak i'll of this man and not contact him for his reply,
Ps Adam Man up contact the Bro tell him what you think of Him,
Has he got a Youtube Page i will contact him and tell Him of my discust at attitudes toward his playing:)
No Adam Im not slandering you but my strict regimentle
attitude i do expect more from a Leader:)
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 8:09 PM
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MP
236 posts
May 09, 2010
5:36 PM
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thank god!! right-on NASTY!!!
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captainbliss
77 posts
May 09, 2010
5:37 PM
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@MP:
/doesn't anyone feel the least bit sheepish for the unnecessary,uncalled for, negative criticism of a man-a fine player by the way; whom has done no one any harm?/
Sheepish? No.
Sad that far too many forum posts (EDIT clarification: in all forums, not just MBH) go that way? Yes.
xxx
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 5:38 PM
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congaron
874 posts
May 09, 2010
5:58 PM
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For me, there are certain phrases that trigger a "bluesy sound" in my head. Turnarounds in blues music and i-iv-v progressions where a turnaround occurs in other genres hint at the blues to me. For that reason, I have copied turnarounds that seem to appear frequently and catch my attention the most. The rest I just make up in the moment, usually keying on a melody or harmony already appearing in the number. I leave the box, return to the box, use the turnarounds and just have a good time. I copy quite a bit of blues "stuff" to make myself sound more believable, if not authentic.
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joeleebush
7 posts
May 09, 2010
6:18 PM
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This is an interesting discussion..I may as well jump in and get a bunch of people pissed off at me too. (you can just about imagine how much sleep I will lose over that)
I have taught for about a half century and I have always advocated for students to learn 2-3 instrumentals NOTE by NOTE as this increases their vocabulary without them even knowing its happening. Then, whether they realize it or not, the vocabulary becomes a disciplinary tool that enables them to express various lines and phrases in various songs..no matter who they are playing with. Without falling into a rut..which is a very dangerous thing to do as a harp player.
For example on my website I play a version of Roller Coaster..it's not note for note (I was drunk and forgot to play some of it..but nobody cares anyway),however it is close enough to where anyone schooled in blues harp will say..."he's playing Roller Coaster".
"Stardust" has been recorded by everyone from Artie Shaw to Sinatra to Rod Stewart but it is STILL "Stardust"...and if someone wants to say "ewwwwww,there's old stardust again..gag, gag,"...then I say "DONT LISTEN TO IT".
Back in the stone ages we had to keep moving that record player arm back again and again to hit that "special passage" in a song and cop that lick. Or either sit there and steal it from a guy at a live show.
Nothing wrong with any of that...as long as credit is given where credit is due. I always credit the original artist and then go right into the song. The people seem to lap it up.
The only ones who don't lap it up are lazy ass harp blowers who won't sit down and go through the hard headed process of LEARNING IT! They want to get by on "soul" and the "feeling". I say horsedung!
Soul and Feeling will take you only so far...then you will hit a plateau and get in that rut. Thats when its time to sit down and study..note for note. (which with today's modern tools is a lot of fun and much quicker).
I defy any player to listen to Rod Piazza's "Harpburn" or "Bounce" two times and then get up there under pressure and deliver... (Dogging it in the clutch and choking to death with sweaty palms and dry mouth will be the next feature of that little endeavor.)
I enjoy hearing this Barath (I think that is correct spelling) play note for note....sounds great to me and I would say to him...."let me shake your hand, ace, you nailed that sucker to the wall".
I have seen 'em all, heard 'em all, (except SonnyBoy the First) and they ALL use licks and phrases from someone else and add their own twists to it.
Yea, you read it right...."if you can't play at least 2 "standard" instrumentals note for note...then YOU CANNOT PLAY". That means I am calling you a 3rd rate pistolero.I will tell you something else too..I'm NOT.
Happy days gents...
Joe Lee Bush, aka "old grouchy", "dirty low down doug", and others
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