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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Marine Band science
Marine Band science
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ness
188 posts
May 07, 2010
6:21 AM
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It seems to me there have got to be some real, maybe even quantifiable, things that make the sound of the Marine Band so special, and I want to try to understand what they are. I'd like to try to avoid the touchy-feely things in this discussion as much as possible.
So, the basic components of a harp are reeds, reed plates, comb and covers. People routinely buy these Marine Bands and immediately alter all four. Arc & gap the reeds, emboss the slots, flatten and seal the comb, open the covers, whatever, to fine-tune the sound. But what's going into that special sound that is lacking in other harps?
I was talking to harpwrench the other day, and he said something about MB that made me curious and want to understand this more. He said 'they just got lucky on the design'. So I lob the question out to everyone: what's in the design that makes it special?
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John
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GermanHarpist
1418 posts
May 07, 2010
6:31 AM
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The sound is produced by all the components. Coverplates, comb material & surface, reedplate thickness, dimensions of slot and reeds, etc...
As far as I know the reeds of the MB and Sp20 are the same. So all the difference in sound come from all the other componenets. And as we all know, except the reedplates/reeds, between MB and Sp20 everything is different...
I can't imagine that the sound of the harp was (until five or so years ago) taken much into consideration when building a new model (in fact probably everything except the sound... :). So yeah, hohner just got "lucky" with the MB...
As we see from Adam, the MB already has it's sound also without customization. That only makes it play better, louder, brighter - but that special something is already there.
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YT
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 6:56 AM
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Andrew
952 posts
May 07, 2010
7:10 AM
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And I'm not convinced that the MBD sounds as good as the MB. What do you think?
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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Buddha
1739 posts
May 07, 2010
7:44 AM
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I think you've all been conditioned to believe the MB sounds good.
If the Golden Melody were the standard you'd probably think that was the best sounding harp and you'd be wondering why the Marine Band doesn't sound as good.
It's all a matter of what we're used to. In marketing, the consumer generally doesn't know what they want so advertising TELLS people what they like.
Nobody ever asked for electricity before it was around and now we can't live without it. Did you know Nikola Tesla had a much better and more efficient design? It simply wasn't as profitable.
It's just like the difference between the Hydrogen powered cars and the petrol powered cars. The masses have been conditioned to think the petrol cars are better than anything else but in actuality the H202 cars are more efficient and just as powerful. The oil companies aren't making their billions on water, so the sheeple are conditioned to believe nothing is better than oil.
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"The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 8:00 AM
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Johnster
62 posts
May 07, 2010
7:52 AM
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For once Buddha, I whole heartedly agree with you! ;)
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boris_plotnikov
97 posts
May 07, 2010
8:22 AM
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I never liked marine band, nor classic, nor deluxe, not crossover. Too small for my hands, sounds too raspy, side vents are not good for perfect cup, bends and overbends sounds too harsh comparing to blow-draw notes (for my ear and playing style bended notes at GM and Sp20 are closer in tone to regular blow-draw). I don't say about nails, swollen comb.
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http://myspace.com/harmonicaboris
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Kingley
1140 posts
May 07, 2010
8:44 AM
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"And I'm not convinced that the MBD sounds as good as the MB. What do you think?".
I agree.
Having played Huang, Hering, Lee Oskars, Suzuki and Hohner harmonicas over the years. It became apparent to me, that for the style I play that nothing can even begin to come close to the Marine Band 1896 for tone. It just has a quality that no other harp gives me. Especially when amplified.
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GermanHarpist
1421 posts
May 07, 2010
8:55 AM
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Ewww... everybody. While stating that the MB sounded 'special' (to him), if you'd care to read the OP carefully you'd notice that ness didn't ask if the MB was the best sounding harp, but why it sounds the way it does.
Not 'MB oppinion', 'MB science'. So let's get back on topic before we come into the touchy-feeling-thingy that ness wanted to avoid.
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YT
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 9:01 AM
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Kingley
1141 posts
May 07, 2010
9:02 AM
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To my ear the 1896 gives a clearer brighter, richer, smoother tone. Whilst also giving the notes a burnt edge to them. This is enhanced when amplified to give a rich, warm, burnt tone, which in my experience no other harp can provide. The only thing better to my ear is a well set up (customised) 1896.
Of course though as always it's down to personal taste. Whilst I prefer the 1896 someone else will undoubtedly prefer another make or model of harp.
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GermanHarpist
1422 posts
May 07, 2010
9:02 AM
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Andrew, to stay on topic the right question would have been:
Why does or doesn't the MBD sound like the MBC.
Your original question would be a perfect subject for a new thread.
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YT
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 9:10 AM
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HarpNinja
444 posts
May 07, 2010
9:12 AM
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Open cover plates and combs w/o obstruction make a large impact. Comparing a modded mb to another model of stock harp is not apples to apples...or apples to oranges even.
Nails vs screws can change things too.
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GermanHarpist
1423 posts
May 07, 2010
9:27 AM
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"Nails vs screws can change things too."
HN, that's a good point. It could be that you can't really 'overtighten' the harp with nails. They have a specific grip, and that's it...
However, I'd say, this issue could simply be resolved by not screwing the screws too tight (or tight at all, when we're at it).
The other thing could be that the coverplate contact of the screws is mostly somewhat bigger than that of the small nails... combined with the fact that they're often screwed too tightly (putting the cover plates under tension and thus reducing the vibration), this could actually have some effect on the sound.
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YT
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 9:31 AM
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kudzurunner
1409 posts
May 07, 2010
9:40 AM
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I actually like the sharp corners of the Marine Band. They dig into spot on my hands at the bases of both index fingers, creating--when I practice and gig a lot--fairly hefty calluses. These give me a very strong grip on the harp. Golden Melodies are terrible in this respect--at least the way that I hold harps. I can't get a really strong grip on them. It's like trying to get a firm grip on a scaly, slippery fish.
I think that the way in which MBs, with their wooden combs, absorb humidity from the breath and from the surrounding environment, makes a difference.
I also think that some of it has to do with the fact that the blues harmonica "sound," in its classic aspects, has been created with this particular harp. It's become the norm. If all of that great music had been created on Seydel harps, THAT would be the norm, and we'd all be forced to position ourselves relative to it.
I used a Big River harp in D-flat for a long time and loved its bright, brassy sound.
I've always claimed that the lower-hole bends (1-3) on lower-key MBs (G through Bb) are where the real difference can be felt. I remember being in Paris in 1986 and blowing out my MB's. I bought a few ProHarps. They had a neat sound--but they just didn't have that gritty, growly low-note bend sound.
I have no idea what the scientific basis is for the claims I'm making. I've always assumed that the pear-wood comb made a difference. But I'm sure that old wive's tale has been disproved.
Still, I'm trying to suggest some evidence, not merely share impressions. The sharpness of the stock harp-edges allows some of us to grip the harp very firmly and thus apply a great deal of overpressure to the reeds when we play; people who play Golden Melodies may, for example, tend towards a softer attack, and the resulting differential may lead some to feel that the MB gives a deeper, stronger blues sound--rather than, for example, a lighter, quicker, more fleet jazz-type sound. There's no question that a "humidified" MB has a better sound and a more responsive action, because the expanded wood comb has become, in effect, a sealed comb--this long before the contemporary period where all sort of modifiers are sealing combs in other ways. In other words, after you play for half an hour on a MB and get all that humid breath and spit into it, it's a kick-ass harp. Plastic comb harps don't enjoy that upshift in playability after extended playing.
Last Edited by on May 07, 2010 9:48 AM
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congaron
866 posts
May 07, 2010
10:20 AM
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I've noticed the reeds are just a touch closer to the mouth end of the comb. When everything is this small, even a little bit makes a difference. I like how they all sound. Some guys asked me what my harps were last night..it's a hodge podge of suzukis and hohners of various models.
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ness
189 posts
May 07, 2010
12:43 PM
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Tuning?
Reed profile including dimensions, springiness, etc?
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John
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OzarkRich
210 posts
May 07, 2010
1:41 PM
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I agree with the size factor. They have less material/mass and therefore don't absorb as much of the sound.
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Andrew
953 posts
May 07, 2010
1:50 PM
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GH, I think maybe now you're reading too closely!
If we agree that a superficially identical harp doesn't sound as good, then that naturally raises the question, 'why?' i.e. 'what are the physical differences?'
You're not in a court of law, you're in a chat room!
:-)
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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GermanHarpist
1424 posts
May 07, 2010
3:46 PM
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"GH, I think maybe now you're reading too closely!"
That may be, but... we'll leave this decision up to the jury. :)
Hehehe, just kidding, no harm intended.
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YT
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DevonTom
94 posts
May 07, 2010
4:04 PM
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I play Special Twenty Harps 90% of the time but played a Marine Band yesterday and up to hole 6 it does have a better sound, it gets hard to play fluently above there. I propose a Frankensteins Monster harp where we chop a MB and SP20 both in half and then weld em together, best of both worlds.
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GermanHarpist
1425 posts
May 07, 2010
4:10 PM
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Devon, I read that the separators between the Sp20 tines actually help to enable the sound waves...
Uhhh, captain... very interesting, thanks.
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YT
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htownfess
67 posts
May 07, 2010
6:14 PM
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Not mentioned thus far: the extreme brightness of the basic MB sound means that if you can cup one up well--and its small size helps people do that--then the result is the *largest bright-to-dark range* available when one goes from closed to open cup & vice versa. That applies whether acoustic or amplified: greater expressive palette if you work your cup.
I make that observation even though I can't cup an MB well.
There is probably a synergy of construction elements that gives the MB a different "mouth feel" than other harps--the vibrations felt through direct physical contact, which the player tends to interpret as tone something like the way smell factors into taste, though the audience doesn't experience that "tonal element." I call it intimacy with the note: you can feel it and read what it is doing better. Maybe the pearwood, light covers, closeness of reed to mouthpiece, etc. Since the reedplates are the same, exactly the same thing would be going on at the reed with a SP20 or GM, but I feel closer to the note somehow with an MB. That sense changes a bit with things like custom combs of composite or metal; maybe the pearwood is soft enough to damp vibrations a bit by comparison, filter some overtones.
The screws on MBDs may be enough extra mass and different enough pressure points to change that "mouth feel" enough to detect, to make it perceptibly different along with the pre-opened covers. But then people were screwing MBs together for years without remarking that, and I don't think MBs and MBDs feel different to me in that sense--if I didn't taste the MBD comb, I wouldn't be able to tell it apart in a blind test from an MB with its tines rounded and covers opened.
Note that you can put MB covers on an SP20 and to the audience the result will sound more like an MB if the player works their cup, but it won't feel like an MB to the player, doesn't feel as "intimate" or direct to me, anyway. It's not just the coverplates that make the difference.
Maybe it would be possible to measure different "mouth feel" by spectrum analysis of the output from transducers attached to different models of harp, say right at the mouthpiece/coverplate junction.
I think I stumbled across a whole other aspect of MBs when the Crossover came out which I have never seen remarked anywhere, but will put in another thread. It may explain something about MBs.
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DevonTom
95 posts
May 07, 2010
6:21 PM
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Okay, joking aside, with acoustic guitars the smaller bodied the guitar the louder it seems to the ear as it is punching out the middle frequencies more. Is this the same with the marine band? A smaller tighter body punching out the sound with emphasis on a slightly more middy sound?
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nacoran
1826 posts
May 07, 2010
7:18 PM
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My limited understanding of acoustics- because of that pesky rule of conservation of energy you can amplify a sound by reducing the length of the vibration or vice versa. Closed back harps, at least to my ears, sound warmer. It's like putting an echo on your harp. Open backed harps sound brighter. Everything I've read suggests that comb material doesn't make much difference but that the shape of the chamber and the thickness of the covers make a difference.
I also agree with Buddha a little bit about how what we are used to informs what we think of as the 'good' sound. Even our scales are based on what we are used to. Chinese scales use fewer notes; Indian scales use more notes. There are all sorts of variations even within Western scales. There are country scales, Irish scales, modes, etc. Each one has strengths and weaknesses. The constant battle between consonance and dissonance shifts our tastes over time.
For the record though, Tesla's system for delivering electricity actually did beat out Edison's, although Tesla still died broke. The problem with hydrogen powered cars is that hydrogen isn't found in it's unbound form in the amounts we'd need for powering things. You have to crack it, which takes energy. If you can build a solar infrastructure to crack it it does make a great replacement for oil, but until that infrastructure is in place no one will build the cars and no one will build the infrastructure until there are enough of the cars out there. It will probably really take off in conjunction with battery power.
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Nate
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shanester
25 posts
May 07, 2010
7:31 PM
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It's the holes in the side of the covers and the tuning.
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7LimitJI
110 posts
May 08, 2010
3:26 AM
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Most custom Marine Bands have screwed plates.
I've modded all mine, just makes them a bit more responsive and easier to maintain.
So,its not the nails.
I've put MB plates on a Suzuki Promaster, it sounded just like a Promaster. I Just Tune my Promasters.
So, its not the plates.
I made an aluminium comb and fitted MB plates and coverplates.
It sounded just like a MB.
The only logical conclusion can be the cover plates and the tuning give the MB its distinctive tone.
I play mostly MB because
a/ I like the tone
b/ Spare reeds are available
c/ They are cheap (relatively)
d/ A few mods make them excellent harps
I think the MBD sounds exactly like a MBC with opened up coverplates.
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Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 4:25 AM
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htownfess
69 posts
May 08, 2010
4:11 AM
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When did the MBC switch to 7-limit JI tuning? I thought they were still the same compromise tuning as MBD and SP20.
As for coverplates, although people characterize the Marine Band in remarkably different ways--as sweet or harsh--I had noticed that nonplayers often characterized the MB sound as sweet. I also noticed something interesting when tuning MBs: they seemed much more forgiving when chords or octaves were a little bit off. An MB octave could be out by several cents and beating away, yet the difference beats would not be perceptible unless I concentrated very hard on listening for them; the difference beats do not stand out until the octave is quite far out of agreement.
Likewise, MB chords tend to sound pretty smooth even when they aren't precisely in tune, apart from things like the 5/9D compromise tuning issues. Again, the difference beats don't stand out when slightly out of tune.
The stock Crossover tuning is quite far from 7-limit JI, or from stock MB/MBD tuning; it's less smooth than MS series tuning, even. Yet it doesn't sound rough *unless you really listen for that*; the difference beats are there, all right, but you have to focus hard on perceiving them.
*Unless you block the side vents on the covers.*
Try that one with any MB model. Hold the harp with your fingertips away from the side vents, like tips on the ends or front of the harp, and blow a soft tongueblocked octave or chord (leave the 5/9D out of chords at first, draw a soft 1/2/3/4D chord, for example). Sustain it and reach in and block the side vents on the covers with your thumbs and fingertips.
If the octave or chord is out of tune, the difference beats will jump out when you block the side vents. The beats were there all along, you just couldn't perceive them well.
So far I'm guessing that the side vents throw out a slightly out-of-phase version of the overtones that masks the difference beats, inso far as the side vents are uncovered. You probably also pick up more tactile vibration with more fingertip contact when blocking the vents, but I think the sonic difference is very audible.
Not sure the effect is as perceptible with other vented covers like the Big River ones; the side vents on BRs seem too small to me, proportionately, to emulate the real Marine Band sound well. I drill three additional holes in each side of BR covers to get closer to MB sound.
I think both the sweetness people perceive from MBs and the harshness/raspiness people describe come mainly from the way the coverplates affect how we hear the harp's overtones. MBs may have a certain smoothness when uncupped (that side vent masking of difference beats) that paradoxically goes away somewhat when cupped up fully--the latter yielding growly low-end bends, for example? The "mouth-feel" issue probably factors into it as well for the player's perception of overtones, but to a lesser degree.
We probably get more highs with an MB than anything else, and those will accentuate out-of-tune elements in the tone, adding that rasp/growl mentioned, even when cupped up fully when playing amplified, because covering the side vents to any degree brings out any difference beats that are present. That sound is smoothed out in vintage recordings made on the old 7-limit JI, but to me 7-limit has a chime, almost, when any kind of chordal element is played that adds additional texture, and opening hands can bring out edges for a rasp. The oldtimers knew how to work that because it's there in acoustic playing too. A vintage Old Standby won't rasp like that for me, it mainly just chimes, because the coverplates are so closed up.
I think something is going on with the MB side vents. Try an unblocked/blocked side vents AB on an OTB Crossover and the difference should be very obvious. But it's audible on any MB whose octaves are off. I had wondered about that for years--why MBs are so forgiving about precision of octave tuning--and had always guessed that its construction damped overtones somewhat, until I happened to block my new Crossover's vents with my fingertips.
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7LimitJI
111 posts
May 08, 2010
4:23 AM
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"When did the MBC switch to 7-limit JI tuning? I thought they were still the same compromise tuning as MBD and SP20."
They haven't Stephen.Its still the compromise tuning.
I tune them to 7Limit after reading your posts elsewhere !!
I'll edit the above post. Thanks :o)
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on May 08, 2010 4:26 AM
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hvyj
325 posts
May 08, 2010
8:20 AM
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IMHO, the vented covers are a big factor in giving the MB its characteristic sound. The Big River also has vented covers. Personally, I don't like MBs, but i really do think that the side vents have a very significant on tone/sound.
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barbequebob
799 posts
May 08, 2010
9:35 AM
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It's without a doubt, not only the side vents, but also the arched shape of the cover plate design as well.
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Boston, MA
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ness
190 posts
May 08, 2010
3:42 PM
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Next to the Promaster, the MB covers are quite thin. At first I thought that may mean more resonance, but after thinking about how they're held and played, I would think they'd be dampened significantly. But the shapeis certainly different -- not arched and side-vented.
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John
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hvyj
326 posts
May 08, 2010
5:47 PM
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AND Promaster covers, like GM covers, are FULL LENGTH.
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MP
230 posts
May 09, 2010
12:43 AM
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iv'e compared custom MBs to custom MBDs and can't tell the difference. iv'e taken a SP20,put blues bender covers on it(they have open sides but i opened the back too) and compared it to MBs, MBDs, stock SP20s, and a CROSSOVER. it sounds the most tonally like the CROSSOVER but very close to MBs and MBDs.
i think that, for the most part, all those hohners are pretty similar in tone(including the SP20 i modified-not the stock ones). i don't think i can tell any tonal differences unless i'm playing the harp myself. even then the feel of plastic and wood probably colors my perception.
yesterday i played some SEYDELs with stainless steel reeds and closed sides. now there was a tonal difference i could detect.
Last Edited by on May 09, 2010 12:45 AM
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