Jim Rumbaugh
202 posts
Apr 29, 2010
7:22 PM
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I originally thought 4 was enough, but when I did my first chart, I needed 5. I studied it a bit and came up with this.
12th position D...F...Ad..B
straight harp A...C...Ed..F#
cross harp... E..…G...Bd..C#
Any combination of 4 harps that are 3 half steps apart will work. E , G , Bd, Dd would work. ( now I gotta get a C# harp)
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nacoran
1782 posts
Apr 30, 2010
1:04 AM
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Hey Jim, sorry I didn't get back sooner on your other post.
Yeah, the way I remember harp positions is the circle of fifths. Cross harp is always 1 harp clockwise on the circle. 12th position is on step counter clockwise. You can count out the starting notes for each position that way. Your right, any 4 harps spread out evenly around the circle will work. I don't know why, but Asian harps seem to come in C# and Western harps come in Db. I actually just finally finished my full set of 12 diatonics.
Unfortunately, the first cheap set of harps I bought came with 7 harps, but nothing in the B, F#/Gb, Db/C# part of the circle. I've actually thinking about why that is.
The first thing I figure is they figure most people are going to play in 1st or 2nd position. Lousy piano players who can only play white keys play in C major, so it's useful to have a C and a G harp. Lousy guitar who can only play in the guitar equivalent of first position play in E, so it's useful to have an E and an A harp. I think most of the brass instruments play in Bb, so Bb and F are useful. As best I can figure lots of Celtic music is played in 1st position on a D harmonica.
Sure enough, the cheap Piedmonts I started out with came in G,A,Bb,C,D,E and F. If you are comfortable switching between just first and second you can skip around the circle in 6 steps.
As for saving space when you are carrying stuff around, it seems a lot of the cases you can get have spaces for 7 harps. A cheap serviceable case like the one you can get for $20-$30 for the Piedmont set (that happens to include 7 very bad tasting harmonicas as a bonus!) is easier to carry around and less clanky than 4 harps in your pockets. I still think they need to come up with an easier way to carry them though. Compared to the size of the harmonicas the case is still huge. Did you know that Lee Oskar cases can lock together to form a giant clunky box?
Of course Buddha will probably come along and say that you should carry all 12 keys so you can choose to play each key in whichever of the 12 positions sounds best for that particular song.
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/myquill/Positions.html
I've noticed the later it gets the longer my posts get. It's almost 4 am here. For the record, I can basically play in 12th, 1st and 2nd. I can only remember the half of the Circle of Fifths for non-flat/sharp keys by heart. (Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle (and that Bb goes before F because I use it a lot).
Someday I want a set of custom covers that has a Circle of Fifths rotated so the that key for each harp is on top.
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Nate
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congaron
851 posts
Apr 30, 2010
12:06 PM
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I made a small copy of the circle of fifths to put in my harp case for when the jazz guys show up and I want to figure out what's going on. I don't care how it looks to have to look it up. After that, I just play.
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MP
212 posts
Apr 30, 2010
12:31 PM
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so did i.
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Cisco
111 posts
Apr 30, 2010
1:27 PM
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"Cross harp is always 1 harp clockwise on the circle"
I believe it is the opposite, or counter clockwise- if the song is in the key of C then you would grab a harp in the key of F.
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barbequebob
775 posts
Apr 30, 2010
1:30 PM
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Cross harp starts as the 5th of the I chord, G being the 5th of a C chord. To break it down from the C chord:
1st (root note of harp tuned to C)....C
3rd ..................................E
5th ..................................G
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2010 1:32 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
203 posts
Apr 30, 2010
3:00 PM
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@Nacoran " the cheap Piedmonts I started out with came in G,A,Bb,C,D,E and F. If you are comfortable switching between just first and second you can skip around the circle in 6 steps"
Just to clarify. With the harps you have listed above, you CANNOT play all keys via 1st, 2nd, nor 12th position. Somewhere in the mix, you will always need at least one "oddball" key to get ALL the keys.
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nacoran
1784 posts
Apr 30, 2010
3:35 PM
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Cisco, yeap, your right. I'm borderline dsylxec.
Jim, yeah, it's that oddball range of Db, F#, B that they don't include. You need one of them to do the 12th-2nd trick, but because other instruments have 'easy' keys to play in you almost have to go out of your way to to find a song that you need one of those harps for. Of course, it does happen. As a gag song my friend and I are learning Europe's 'The Final Countdown' which happens to be in F#.
The Piedmont set won't give you all the keys you need, but it will give you a case for 7 harps and a few basic keys. Because they have plastic covers they aren't real loud, but they bend alright. As long as you aren't an OB player they will work in a pinch. They taste horrible when they are new. I've actually had two sets (I needed a cheap case and it was the only one the store had!) Both sets tasted awful for about 2 hours of playing per harp. I'm phasing them out as I get better harps, but I still use them for a couple of keys. My Piedmont D actually has beat the odds and is one of my favorite harps. They're also not a bad option if you want some harps to mess around with the inside of. You may not be able to learn to be a great customizer on them, but you can at least learn how much force it takes to bend or emboss or whatever. I think it's also possible to get a set of Blues Bands in a similar box (I think GH reviewed a set once.) The Blues Bands have metal covers so you could learn things like opening up the back on them fairly cheap. I've never seen the sets of Blues Bands in my area though.
And I know I've said it before, in this thread and others... the Piedmonts taste awful when they are new. I can't stress how awful. I probably have lip cancer from them. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night screaming or crying and I have to tell myself that it's over, that the bad taste has worn off, that I have enough other harmonicas so I will never have to taste a new Piedmont again... but I can never fall back to sleep.
:O (Blech face)
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Nate
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congaron
857 posts
Apr 30, 2010
3:37 PM
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lol.
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oldwailer
1221 posts
Apr 30, 2010
6:04 PM
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I don't use 12th position yet--just 1st, 2nd, and third--but I don't think I'd ever get over needing to carry less than about 24 harps. I might want to do Summertime in third--and I might choose to do it on an LO minor harp--and sometimes, even though I can do a tune just fine in first--it sounds better to me in 2nd.
And of course I need to have a few low harps--and a couple of very high ones. I haven't added a chro yet, but that isn't impossible--the blues on a chro in third position sings to me.
Besides, if my wife knew that I could get by with 4 harps, she'd shit-can me for ever having so many harps! Well, that would certainly give me more practice time--hmmmmm. . .
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2010 6:07 PM
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eharp
651 posts
May 01, 2010
11:14 AM
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jim- my son was given a set of blue steels for helping my friend get honorable mention in the bushman harmonica world video contest. it has a C#!! i can probably persuade my son to sell it fairly cheap.
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nacoran
1792 posts
May 01, 2010
12:15 PM
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eharp- A C#? I'm going to have to go all LP/TB argument on you and say everyone knows you want a Db not a C#. It sounds way better to anyone who has any kind of ear! And why is it I can find a harmonica labeled H but I can't find a Gb! I am offended by both the key of Ab and F# but harmonica makers keep making way more Ab's than H's and way more F#'s than Gb's. This needs to stop.
:)
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Nate
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eharp
653 posts
May 01, 2010
12:38 PM
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fine. but you aint ever heard a harp as sweet as a blue steel C#
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Jim Rumbaugh
210 posts
May 02, 2010
5:22 AM
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eharp- Thanks, but I'll pass on the "Blue Steel" offer.
This should be my last post on this subject.
The Question: If you are playing Major Pentatonic scales in 1st, 2nd and 12th position, how many harps do you need to be able to play in all 12 keys and what are the combination of harps needed?
Ok, I obsess at times. Last night I wondered, how many combinations of harps could give you all keys? The answer: 3
You need four harps and the four harps must be 3 half step apart, so after 3 combinations, you are repeating the first. Here are the 3 combinations
1) All keys with A...C…Ed…F#
12th position D...F...Ad…B…
straight harp A...C…Ed…F#..
cross harp... E…G...Bd…C#..
2) 1) All keys with Bd...C#…E…G
12th position Eb...F#..A…C…
straight harp Bd...C#..E….G
cross harp.… F…G#...B…D..
3) 2) 1) All keys with B...D…F…G#
12th position E...G….Bd..C#…
straight harp B….D…F…G#
cross harp… F#...A...C…Ed..
So if you want to play ALL KEYS, you need to have at least one of those odd ball key harps in your bag, but you do not "have to" have all the lesser used key harps,
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nacoran
1794 posts
May 02, 2010
11:08 AM
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Lol. Your math looks good. The next question is there a good 4 harmonica holder? You could use the locking Lee Oskar cases, but they rattle a lot. Open back harps get too much lint when they are just stuck in a pocket. I suppose 4 separate soft pouch cases might work.
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Nate
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eharp
654 posts
May 02, 2010
12:08 PM
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MP
223 posts
May 02, 2010
12:21 PM
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nacoran,
i feel your pain. i swear i used to own a MB marked C# in the '70s. i don't think they ever made I or J. much less I# or Jb.
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nacoran
1799 posts
May 02, 2010
3:19 PM
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"Where does he get his wonderful toys?"-The Joker, when looking at eharps utility belt.
MP, when I was younger I had sharp eyes.
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Nate
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