"its just busking......dont like it just walk past and smile."
well said!
The way I see it; The internet is fair-ground. I love that a lot of beginners are posting. In the case of MAL you can just watch his first vids to his latest and view the progress.
It's an outlet. It's there for people to take advantage of.
The reality for live music is that regardless of whatever genre you may be playing in, the number of venues for it has been shrinking for the last 20-30 years, and when the economy goes down, many venues cut it out or close. The ones that can stay open often don't rely soley on the live music alone, often having food served there as more of the main source of income. In just about every economic downturn that I've witnessed in the past 30 years, often times the first genre getting hit first has been blues, and in certain areas of the US, even more so than others.
Tougher drunk driving laws have also cut into the live music business as well, plus the karoeke thing, and along with that, computer games, and that's just putting a very incomplete list together at best.
Prior to the disco era, there were easily far more clubs than bands, but since the disco era, there are easy 1000 bands for every club and when economic times get tough, many bands also undercut each other in order to keep working, be it full time or not.
Promotion has always been tough and even with the internet, it's getting tougher and self promotion is something that simply can't be ignored and you have to be constantly up on any possible way to do it 24/7 and it all takes tons of time and resources.
For long periods of time, the late Johnny Little John was also doing gigs as an auto mechanic in Chicago even while he had product out there.
The internet can be a double edged sword as both a good promotional tool but it can also be the first place where tons of terrible, untrue rumors often abound and you do see tons of beginners on there, and some people may be given a mistaken impression about the harmonica and the people who play it.
Walter, when you say it takes a lifetime to master anything, I couldn't agree with you more. In an earlier post in this thread when you mentioned people that are music critics that know nothing about the music they are criqueing, man is that ever true, and it's not only in small as well as large newspapers and magazines, but it is also on the internet as well.
One thing very positive that the Boston Blues Society has done in recent years is to try and help a number of blues musicians get some sort of health insurance and I know far too many full time musicians that clearly can't afford it even tho, as a pro musician, you come under the category of being self employed according to the IRS, and can deduct the costs as part of your operating expenses, but for a lot of them, it is still far too expensive to even get coverage that flat out sucks, never mind something half way decent. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2010 1:17 PM
paying your dues, is subjective to a point. many good players never see the glimmer of the public's eye. many good artists never make a dime off of their passion, nor do they care to...simply because they never gig doesnt mean that theyre not a blues man. i DO see that there are many videos posted by beginners on youtube that arent up to snuff. But! thats MY opinion of their playing. for all i know, what they put on there could be leaps and bounds from how they played just a short while ago. bravo to them! its hard to condemn anyone for their reasons for posting a vid when we havent walked a mile in their shoes. i posted mine because i was beaming with pride about what i had learned, and my family is spread out all over the place. its entirely too easy to just send them a link in an email.
walter, i would love nothing more than to hear some of your tunes you played when you were giggin so long ago. i have my reasons... often times, i think what you do suffers from the lack of pre-planning. i, more than anyone can appreciate free-flowing creativity. it DOES bring out the best in anyone, for me it just happens in chunks tho...and all ive ever used that for is revelation, and how i can use it in a more structured format (think brainstorming an idea or lick). personally i wouldnt attempt to do what you do. but it doesnt mean that i cant appreciate aspects of it.
IMO, its about the feeling of not getting yours! or mine! how many times have you seen someone who has something you want, and you dont think they deserve it! i konw exactly where your feeling came from in your OP! and despite whatever reasons youve stated to back it up or to defend it, the feeling is there for everyone right? keep doing your thing walter... as far as i know, what you do is unique to yourself.... viva la difference! ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Bob: I am realizing we are the last link to the blues greats. I use to love to hear their stories and just listen to them talk. This new generation, with due reason, sees them as a youtube clip. How often do the young guys ask you about your journeys with those guys?
Kyzer Sosa: Thanks for the comments! My early stuff was pretty much like you hear from me now other than arrangements were a bit tighter from the structured view. Playing with the old guys one never rehearsed. You got onstage and either pleased their ears or you got kicked off the stage. Actually to get up with them you had to have proved yourself to them somehow. That could be anything from being on the scene a long time to them hearing you blowing in the alley behind the club. The latter is how I got onstage with many of them.
Other than bb king, bobby blue bland, and no one really got to jam with them, most of the guys when I was playing were never rehearsed. their reoorded hits that had different changes and stuff in them, were comon knowledge to most everyone so they could pull them off without rehearsing. But 99% of their gigs were just calling a key, counting the time, stomping the time, and saying if it was funk, shuffle, boogie, or slow. Todays bands are full of rehearsed hooks and changes of tempos like stuff. It just doesn't sound like blues to me when it is done that way.
Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
Walter- I keep reading your posts about your life experience and the way a bluesman should live, but you say you don't call yourself a bluesman. Is this all for your need to be recognized as a bluesman?
I will recognize you as a bluesman as should others. But your life style is not the only way to be recognized as such.
I never toured or lived with any big names. I have alway tried to keep a steady job and play my music. I have never liked to drink gin or whiskey from a bottle, never been shot messin' with anouthers woman and I have never done any prison time.
I have struggled at points in my life. Made my way from only having a bag of clothes and an old broken down van in Texas to living and playing all over Tenn. to living in Illinois and playing and recording in Chicago. I have had nothing to eat and wondered were I would sleep alot of times. I kept on keepin on and have ended up making a pretty good life for myself. I wouldn't consider myself a bluesman, but some people have called me that.
I don't post video on utube. I do visit music forums and sometimes even voice my opinion.Respect the young guys and the internet. Thing they are a changin
Now get off my lawn. :)
----------
"I have a high tolerance for boredom as long as it has a groove" - Scrapboss
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2010 7:37 PM
Threads like this make me want to put on some old records. To some people, that music is no longer relevant, but it still moves me. Listening to Sunnyland Slim records and hanging out with my dog seems like a much better way to kill time.
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2010 8:30 PM
"it's selfish music and like all selfish things change is not something it does"
nonsense...how can music be selfish? resistant to change? it is music not an animal species. now, the way to play beethoven hasn't changed much- other than the instruments to play it have improved drastically. is classical music selfish? it brings me great joy. so does that no good, self centered, miserly, stick-in the-mud blues. i see no selfishness or "arrogance" in little walter's music.
you all worry to much dont sweat the small stuff someone once told me,you'll be dead and buried soon so dont sweat it.The blues might live it might die i dont really care i have a guitar and a harp or 2 i can sing the blues,i might not be a blueman but who are you.You can say what you want but gueess what you cant,you wont ,And i dare you to try to keep me from singing the blues to the crickets on my back porch.peace
Walter, your last post I agree with 100% and much of that comes from my own personal experience as well with a number of those old great musicians. I certainly sometimes do find myself feeling like a last link as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Helix: During the contest, my father was near death. I had the videos turned in and then it happened. I watched most all of them, but couldn't get my head on right to vote. I also watch a lot of video here. I miss a lot too because I only read posts that look of interest.
Scrapboss: I can never be a bluesman. IMO a real bluesman devotes his entire life to the blues. I quit playing full time, and even when I was at it full speed ahead, the only bluesmen that really let me in were the old guys like lightning hopkins, sonny terry, louisiana red, champion jack dupree, and others (see my bio if want more names).
Other than them, the local white blues players never let me in the harmonica click. I got tired of trying. It seemed you had to do it the same way they did or you were not allowed in the club.
I found more acceptance doing gigs with more roots/alternative music guys. Their audiences weren't upset I didn't do sweet home chicago and the other tried and true blues songs and dug my spontaneous approach. I have nothing against the classics, they just don't hold my interest as a player, just as doing any song again doesn't.
The bluesmen I met spent their whole life at it. They were born into it. I was born into a New Jersey urban life. I can play blues, but I will never be a bluesman. I am the creator and sole performer of Spontobeat and will gig with any scene that likes what I do. There is no sSpontobeat scene yet, so I hang anywhere I am welcome.
Hobostubs: I took no offense. Learning to play complicated music is easy compared to becoming a musician. A musican goes beyond the instrument. Kids never have that card. You have to earn it via living on the earth for a long time. Hopefully those young kids will follow that path. It is one that isn't in a book. I love kids. Heck, I am a school teacher. I work with them 8 hours a day and love it. I have several young boys that borrow the guitars I keep in my room. They play them during lunch. I have had several come in to help in my special education class because they wanted to learn some music. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
Bob: I hear you. The part that confuses me is very few young, trying to be blues players, ever ask about my times with the greats. When I was around the greats I hung on every word they said. I have to say, I am a lover of history. I have always been drawn to living history. I belive that is why I got along with so many of the older players. I loved their stories. I never presented myself as peer. Just a friend, and one that loved their music. The younger generation seems to just want to start right on par with me and play. I hold nothing against them. No one is teaching them how to learn in an apprentice model. I have a middle school hot rod guitar player that wants to "learn" from me. The problem is, when I told him how I learned and teach the same way, he never called back. The internet is really wiping that out apprentice learning model out. It never went that way with the old guys. You had to get to know them first. Times sure are a changing........ ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
"There is no sSpontobeat scene yet, so I hang anywhere I am welcome."
You're wrong on that. There is actually a fairly big scene. You're not the creator of it either, there are a myriad of 100% improv soloist and bands.
Are you into the Bitches Brew material?
I've been invited to a few Super Sessions that feature some of the world's elite musicians doing nothing but 100% improv for 33 1/3 hours non-stop. Can you improvise for 33 1/3 hours? It's not easy.
Another thing, are you sure all of your music is channeled? Why would a spirit care about internet musicians and not paying dues? That sounds like earthbound perspective to me.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
"But 99% of their gigs were just calling a key, counting the time, stomping the time, and saying if it was funk, shuffle, boogie, or slow. "
Last night's jam was exactly like this on several of the numbers. Just plain made up on the spot in whatever key and style someone called out.
Then this one younger guitar player stepped up and everybody who knew him was giving him the business for writing weird stuff..they knew him. I was from out of town.
His comment to me as he left was "man, I never had a harp player that could play my stuff in Bb before! Good job, man." And off he walked...a very talented young musician with a style all his own and very enjoyable to play with....weird as his songs were...lol, just kidding. His writing reminded me of my own son's stuff. Not bad.
I guess i want to piggy back on the idea of playing some stuff outside your comfort zone. Play with some instrumentalists that play jazz....even if you don't like it. Play some country, even if you don't like it. Play rock, fusion, funk, punk, classical. I believe technical expertise is important, but is generally trumped by superior musicianship. I saw that last night too with two trumpet players...night and day difference on both counts..the lesser technician was the superior musician, the one to capture the crowd and hold it.
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2010 8:12 AM
Buddha: I am not familiar with them. I will do a google. I have yet to see/hear of anyone who spontaneously creates every word and music, everytime they play. I have heard of people dabbling in it, but not doing it full time.
I am not a super session. I do it everyday. I did record 30 cds in 28 days for the RPM Challenge. I did 28 in 18 days and then took a day off. Inspiration came again and I did 2 more. They asked you to do one in the month of Feb. I also worked full time during that run.
I would definitely play 33 1/3 hours straight if it hit me, but I don't put goals up like that. That defeats the concept of no mind because you got to be thinking to set goals. I did get inspired for the RPM thing and went with it till it petered out. I just sit down, take a breath, and play totally spontaneously created words and music everytime I pick up an instrumet.
Please tell of someone else that does this. I would love to meet them. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
Here is one group, it may not be your style of music but it's 100% improv with lyrics.
Also take some time to watch Bobby McFerrin vids, most of his works is 100% improv and with lyrics at times. When I lived in MN, I got to be part of a few of his circle song jams - it was a blast.
The SuperSessions were not about goals but rather a theme.
The first one was 33 1/3 the second one was 45 and the next one will be in Italy in Nov 2010 it will be 78 hours of straight improv with some of the best players in the world. It's a not a competition, it's a meeting of spirits.
I don't mean to diminish what you do one bit but 100% improv as a soloist is 100x easier than 100% improv with a live band. Most of my bands are 100% improv with interludes of structured music to ease the audience, I could have added lyrics, I certainly hear words but I was too reluctant to sing in the past. I'm much better about it.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2010 8:23 AM
There is a tradition of making up blues songs on the spot. Bukka White did an album called Sky Songs where he improvised songs. Lightnin' Hopkins used to do it all the time, commenting on what he saw around him when he played.
thanks Buddha. I will check it when I get home. I can't get videos at school. I agree doing improv as a band is more complicated. That is a big reason why I went to a one man band. Simplicity allows for lots of improv without thought and for me, the 1 man band is a challenge in having faith there is still lots of new stuff to find in simple beats. I don't mean to dimish any of the guys you or Devon Tom mentioned, but all those artists relied on repeating songs for much of their repitore. I played with lightning and he did make up a lot of stuff, but had his staple of songs he did most times.
Again, I am still searching for people that do it all spontaneous with vocals as well as music, full time, all the time. It gets lonely at times for me and I think it would be cool to meet some others that are doing this. Buddha start singing and doing all improv and maybe we can do a spontobeat tour someday :-) Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
"I've been invited to a few Super Sessions that feature some of the world's elite musicians doing nothing but 100% improv for 33 1/3 hours non-stop. Can you improvise for 33 1/3 hours? It's not easy."
Not easy to listen to for that long, that's for sure.
Ev630: I agree. It would be a heck of a challenge for players and audience. If anyone is crazy enough to want to hear my most recent 200 songs streamed click below ...........
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
I listen to music for enjoyment. A 33 hour jam is my idea of hell, but might be a psychiatrist's idea of paradise in terms of opportunities to study the ego.
In the improv comedy world, there are a lot of people doing improvised music and musicals.
The genre is a little different and usually it is one piano player improvising and a team of people improving lyrics, but i've seen it with full bands. Two of the pro groups I know are Baby Wants Candy and The Deltones.
SUPER SESSIONS are the World's only mixed genre non-stop totally improvised jam sessions. Sweden currently holds the record for non-stop Jazz jam sessions but Super Sessions are mixed genre. From 10 to 100 hours (the record now stands at 47 hours - Padua Italy) of non-stop totally improvised music in several genres with a plethora of rotating musicians creating one long composition with several movements. An event designed to promote live improvised music in a world becoming blander from homogenized and canned music and raise money for non-profit groups such as music education. This is magic that can only happen when musicians are in the same room together jamming. The energy created from improvisational music comprises some of the best recordings of all time.
Our current list of available performers includes, members of Peter Gabriel's band, John Lennon's band, King Crimson, Mahavishnu, Mile's Davis group and many others. Names like Tony Levin, Pat Mastelotto, Mike Keneally, Hypnoise, Stu Hamm, Willie Oteri, Ronan Chris Murphy, John McLaughlin, Jon Mulvey, George Duke, Stanley Clarke, Brannen Temple, Jerry Marotta, Cat McLean, Skinny Bishop, Chris Michalek and many others. It's simply a matter of time, what we are given to work with and the schedules of the above artists.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
Buddha: I was able to access your link. That must be a fun day and 1/2. At first I thought you meant 1 person or 1 group doing 33 1/3 straight hours. That might make one insane. I would love someday to do a set or two at one of those get togethers. I am not into much complicated stuff and prefer to play with musicians I know or the 1 man band. Walter
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
the beauty of it is, we all just play and if there is a lesser musician (not saying you are) we accommodate him while he's on stage.
You'd be amazed as how guys like Tony Levin, George Duke, John McLaughlin and Stanley Clarke are super supportive and love to jam out on blues.
The next one is in Italy. I don't know that I can get you on the payroll for it but I'll look into it. I do know that if you show up, I can definitely get you on stage for as long as you like. There are several of us that have gone non-stop for 33 hours. It's fun and when you get into the zone it's like time stops and you don't feel tired at all.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2010 11:57 AM
It sounds like a great time Buddha! I would love to come if my expenses were covered. My passport expired years ago. I haven't gone overseas to play since 1985. Things were pretty loose then. Since then all my traveling has been in our van or bus. I prefer the highways to skyways- give me a 40 foot diesel bus and I will drive anywhere there is a highway. I can imagine now harps may be viewed as weapons? Maybe I could tap into that 33 hour zone :-) Thanks! walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
bu...bu...bu...But the Blues ain't always sad. People on here are talking like the Blues is all doom and gloom. To me, and I could be totally off my ringer here, but Blues is a certain style of music. It can drone, shuffle, groove, and it can rock. Blues is always an expression that follows a certain pattern: 8, 12, 16 bars...whatever. And I think anyone can be taught to play or even sing the Blues. But NO ONE can be taught to FEEL the Blues. I am still learning to feel the Blues. Adam Gussow put out a video where he did a lot more talking than playing. He touched on letting out certain spirits (warrior, painter, and something else I can't remember right now). He touched on how you have to tap into these spirits inside you and then channel them into your music. That was the first time I realized the difference between playing and feeling the blues.
I think that there are two sides to this debate. Walter is on the side that says he feels the blues and then uses that feeling to express musically. He is pissed/disenchanted/blown/frazzled/concerned that many people are just playing the blues and not feeling it.
What others are saying and what I believe is that there are a vast number of folks out there playing the blues and are pretty damn good at it, but you can almost always pick out a person who feels his/her blues. They have that sway in their body while they play, or that look on their face as the notes come out. I have this vision of a man wailing away with his eyes closed but i can see deep into the heart of him.
There really is no wrong side of this debate though. I don't see nothin' wrong with a man jamming on his harp for a hobby or just to impress a lady. I don't see a damn thing wrong with a lady spittin' riffs to impress the fellas. I certaintly don't see anything wrong with a man spilling his soul out through the reeds of an instrument. Shit, my ancestors did it just to get through the day.
I guess my point is that there are a million ways to keep Blues alive, but there is only one way to kill it. We can continue to play from our hearts, or for showmanship, for acceptance, or to brag. We can play to make money or to let people know how we feel. We can play to get through the day or to get the day through us. But all those things keep the Blues alive in some way. If we stop playing the Blues, if we turn it into rock and roll or country music, if we forget the roots-the expression of the essence of the Blues, if we worry about who is and who ain't then we got trouble. Shit, I know prolly 5 or 6 riffs solid, I can play one or two melodies, and I got two grooves I can run through a 12 bar without screwing up. But at the end of the day I still call myself a Bluesman. Why? Cause I got a feeling inside me that won't die. A feeling that wants to express myself, that wants to impress people, that wants to make people feel like I do, that wants to make people dance, that wants to make it through the day.
If not for YouTube and all the different folks out there expressing themselves I wouldn't have half the tools and inspiration that I have now to keep searching for the right ways to make this thing speak what is bound inside me. Shoot we are using the internet now to debate the point...
---------- -[][][][][][][][][][]- Learning is a journey, not a destination... -BL
Walter's Quote: "Bob: I am realizing we are the last link to the blues greats. I use to love to hear their stories and just listen to them talk. This new generation, with due reason, sees them as a youtube clip. How often do the young guys ask you about your journeys with those guys?"
Dude, I am really trying to feel what you are saying but this comment is VERY generalized and I have to say that I kind of resent it. I am a young man who never got to see any of these live performances. But that does not make the music irrelevant, or jsut a YouTube video. I think you have to give people some benifit that they have a head on their shoulders and they relate in some way to what they are taking in. We are not all the same. Some of us are going to really experience something when we hear a cut or see a video. Shit I still get the saddest feeling when I hear (and See) Hound Dog Taylor in this YouTube Vid:
To me, I don't just see a damn YT video. I look at that man and I see (I even hear) about his experience with a woman he loved. I relate to that and it adds to my feeling of that same kind of love.
I think you are kind of stepping on a bunch of people's toes when you start to just drop all of this group or all of that group into a bucket. We all got a road to walk, we all feel different bumps, and we all react to those bumps different. ---------- -[][][][][][][][][][]- Learning is a journey, not a destination... -BL
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2010 2:18 PM
CMO: My comment about the young generation seeing the greats via a youtube is just a fact. I missed out on seeing SBWII and a ton of others I wish I could have met with and seen perform. My point was how few young players ask me about what it was like to be around/play with/live guys like Lightning Hopkins, Sonny Terry, Louisiana Red, etc..
I have had quite a few young players want to learn from me, but what usually happens is they just want to get to jamming. That is fine if they are up to it, but none were. They had some skills, and many had better skills than me, but they lacked that inner spirit that is the spirit of music. Jamming, just to spew notes is of no interest to me. Touching each others souls is what I do when I play with others.
It is in blues, and every form of music. It has to be passed from an elder to a youngster. There is no book to teach it. When a learner doesn't crave thi and just wants to spew notes, I have nothing to offer them. I am a simple player, but recieved the spirit from the old bluesmen.
I realize now, the old bluesmen were open to me because that is what I wanted. I didn't want money, girls, fame. I wanted that eternal soul note that taps one into the universe. When someone posses this and a person comes to them whose soul is calling for it, it has to be acknowledged or it will leave that person.
All the greats had it and shared it because they had to. Most of the greats in blues had very little technical skills compared to a 1 year student today. Yet they could touch your soul deep and wide. You felt that in that video. That is what I am talking about. I stared my journey into the blues the same way. It was listening to records and feeling their souls. Long story short, soon wilbert harrison was calling me to get in his car as I blew my harp, louisiana red invited me to move in with him after he broke up with oddeta, sonny terry let me help him get around in the clubs.........
I hope I get to meet you someday. Keep on the road. The person will appear in the flesh if you blindly follow your heart to wherever it carries you. I share all this because I have to when a true spirit calls. The net has it good points! Walter
PS: One doesn't have to sway and move around wildly to have the spirit. They don't have to play a lot of notes either, or play loud and fast. that video you posted was very laid back. Look at Mississippi John Hurt or skip James. Look at lightning hopkins. He sat most of the time. Often times people think you have to be all sweaty, gyrating, screaming, and blasting, to have soul. No way. If I misinterpreted your post I appologize.
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
Waltertore, I respectfully disagree. Youtube has done more to promote blues harmonica than anything that has come before it. Not to be a wise guy, but for instance, I spent at least 10-15 minutes of my precious time last Saturday morning watching your videos over a cup of coffee. Had it not been for your videos on youtube, I would not know who you were. I was watching your videos, by the way, to study your technique so that maybe I could derive some useful information that I can incorporate into my playing. Youtube is, for me, a vehicle of knowledge exchange. What other medium can you think of where the average Joe can have professionals from all over the world critique you on your abilities. For me it's a hobby and a series of new experiences. People who call themselves bluesman have ego issues because that is a title that should be earned over years of hard work and given by his or her audience.
blueswannabe: You make a great point! I agree that the youtube videos are great things- icing on the cake. They offer just what you said. My point is that is not the whole package. To really become a musician, one has to get with great players in the flesh and get that torch passed to them. It is a unbelievably strong and fragile torch. Strong because it will always be there for you to express what is inside through your music and fragile because it will leave you in a flash if you abuse it or try to keep it to yourself when a true soul comes seeking it. When it leaves you, it is like it was never there. I saw this in many musicians that had it at one point, but lost it because of their own greed and troubles. i have had it leave me countless times for such reasons. The good news is when you get your head back on right, it comes back like it never was gone. To keep it, one has to be completely true to their heart regardless of what worldly consequences may occur. That passing of the eternal musical torch is worth more than a million videos. Thank you for watching my videos.
Should I back up here? I just realized I have pretty much devoted my life to playing music. I made no plans for my life except to play. My posts don't come from a hobbist view, but from one that decided not to have children, move wherever the heart directed, and no plans for security in old age, because I needed to play music. The spirit of music has guided my life. 16 years ago it guided me to college and to be a special education teacher. Now I have some security, but will drop it in a heartbeat if the spirit says. We blindly have moved a dozen times around the world because it called. Our last move was from lovely sonoma county california to here in central ohio. We knew no one, had no job leads, nothing. It all came via the music spirit calling. Sorry if I have stepped on toes. ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
I know for me I started posting youtubes and creating a "project" was because I needed more accountability to myself and evidence of progress over time. Writing down takes too much work and with youtube it allows others to see if they have a curiosity into how they might apply what I'm doing to their own journey, and I don't have to store a bunch of videos on my computer.
I can totally see what you are getting at waltertore, in that communities have sprung up that are somewhat artificial and lack the depth of real human touch, communication, and spirit. But, I don't think anyone on this forum or blues harp players on youtube ever thought youtube was a replacement for the human experience. If anything, the benefits outweigh the risks. Things like the hill country harmonica probably would have never taken place. We wouldn't all be sitting here discussing music and blues harp. Most people on here wouldn't even PLAY blues harp if it weren't for youtube or this forum. I have actually seen many performances from Paul Delay and Rick Estrin over the years at the portland waterfront blues fest, I just never realized who they were until the internet and primarily this forum and youtubes. When I was 10 I got a harp and my brother told me "you just block some hole with your tongue". I thought that was gross and never had any interest since then. Then I was 21 and started playing pennywhistle because of some youtube videos, and also saw Adam Gussow telling what he was doing. If no one had lit the torch on the paths like Adam did, there would be much fewer mediocre harp players for sure! If anything though, the effects seen from what Adam started will be seen in 5-10 years when the players he has influenced start coming into their own from what they have learned. And if anything, the blues club scene was going to change regardless of the internet so there are simply not as many opportunities to sit with the greats so other avenues, like youtube, can provide exposure.
I think, ironically, this posting from John Mayer's blog applies to our conversation:
DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK I’m not sure if it’s a function of advancing age or just the times we’re living in, but it’s almost impossible for me to find complete external validation in any one thought, desire, instinct or vision anymore. Who do you want to be exactly like? Is there anybody in this world who’s laid down a template for your dreams and goals that you’d copy and paste over your own life’s story? Maybe you want to go to a music college as I did when I decided to attend Berklee College of Music in Boston. Start asking some alums whether it’s worth it and you’ll get two distinct answers. One half of the control group will tell you it’s not worth it, that you might as well just start a band and hit the road. The other half will tell you that it was the flash point for their music career and that without it they’d be nowhere. The answer depends on the experience had by each person you talk to. Maybe the “Nos” spent their semesters curled up in a ball fighting with their boyfriend or girlfriend on the phone and never applied themselves to making the most of the time there. You’ll never find the answer you want, just information with which to build your own idea and chart your own course. Take your favorite artist, the one you look up to and see as the perfect specimen of talent, values, output, whatever the case may be - and someone else has a reason why they’re not worth even a passing glance. Is “Bob Dylan: Don’t Look Back” the documentary of a genius iconoclast or was he a self absorbed pseudo-intellectual bully? It depends on who you ask. Is Jay-Z the reigning king of hip hop or is he “all business” now? It depends on who you ask. I bring up both names because if you ask me, I put them at the top of my list of people who can do very little if no wrong at all, but it won’t take long to read someone’s opposing point of view. If you’re not sure of what you love, that means you can be talked out of it, and that’s a slippery slope. Is your boyfriend cute? Was Hurt Locker the best movie of the year? Are you going to go out in those shoes? Should you take the promotion and move to Boston? Did I wear “Hammer” pants on stage in Houston or is Rick Owens a visionary clothing designer? It all depends on who you ask. Which is a pretty great reason to stop asking all together. Nobody’s life template will ever lay evenly over yours. And in those times when they clash completely, you have to walk alone, with confidence that you’re creating your own template, made out of your own instincts and your own dreams and your own goals. And if you do it long enough, maybe someone someday will look to yours as the life to model theirs after. Of course, some people won’t agree with them. It will all depend on who they ask.
MAL, IMO it is damnably impossible to find complete external validation in most anything one can imagine. i don't believe age or 'our time' has anything to do with it. as far as "anymore" goes- i don't believe it was ever true in the past either. people are wonderful and people are total dicks. people are whinny or triumphant and all things inbetween. somewhere, somehow, sometime, someone is gonna let you down,(if you allow for that possibility). you seem like an intelligent man. you certainly don't appear to be a big baby. make your own template...i'm sure you will, and see what happens. best of luck.
"the beauty of it is, we all just play and if there is a lesser musician (not saying you are) we accommodate him while he's on stage."
That's great. And if you are a lesser musician, you probably walk off that stage never even knowing it because they welcomed you. What a great bunch of guys!
ive been welcomed when i knew i was the lesser musician. i certainly didnt have to be told to figure it out, nor did they make it clear to me. they were a great bunch of guys... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
interesting subject walter. I never thought about someone who stays home all day. watching gussow's videos and becomes a stellar player as a result. well, it makes perfect sense. gussow has said himself he wants to demystify blue harp playing , cool. Look @ these poker players that have learned texas hold 'em in online card rooms. A year or two of that and some have ended up winning bigtime on those TV tourneys. wow! talk about over night sensation!
So, it is apparant that someday, and probably very soon (now?!) a harp player will come out of nowhere who learned in the sterile environment of the internet and not at the feet of an old blues master,yada yada yada.
cool, brave new world
Last Edited by on Apr 23, 2010 5:27 AM
Waltertore: My wife and I both work full time at our church and are involved in various ministries as volunteers and I see a parallel between what is being discussed here and what we've discovered are the changing times for the church.
Attendance for church services and adult christian education have dropped over the years. Some of that has been due to a decline in interest, but it was assumed that most of the decline was due to the churches approach, so changes were made; teaching from the pulpit instead of fire and brimstone preaching, small groups centered around common interests instead of Bible study, coffeehouse style services with tables and chairs instead of rows of pews etc.
All of this has been done with the assumption that we needed to change our communication techniques WITHIN the church to appeal to the younger generation, but we were still missing the bigger picture.
We're finally realizing that the younger generation no longer defines "communication" the same way the older generation does.
The older generation prefers to meet in person and share stories and listen to each other; communication is done in person, the tones, inflections, facial expressions make a big difference when meeting in person. Phones, email etc are simply tools for making plans to meet in person for more extended communication.
With the younger generation it's just the opposite; communication is done through texting, email, forums, facebook, online chat. Emoticons and such have replaced facial expressions and tone. Even that is changing with video chat. Meeting in person is simply to DO things together - in a church context that would be worship, concerts, dinners and so forth.
For better or worse that's the way it is now. ---------- Ozark Rich __________ ##########
@6SN7: More than 3 years ago, very early in my YouTube lesson rampage, I uploaded a sequence of three lessons entitled "Blues Harp From the Crossroads" in which I tried to lay out the journey for He (or She) who would become a real blues player. I made it clear that internet studies, as it were--all the woodshed-type learning that one might do in the privacy of one's house, without actually getting out there and making music with other people--was no more than a good start, and that the learning process was a hell of a lot more extended and complex than that.
I tried to warn people, but I'm not sure everybody was listening.
Here's the first video. The other two get more into the post-woodshed stuff:
There's no mystery to the process, or not as much as people might think. If you want to become a highly-skilled cabinetmaker, you can watch videos and read books, but at a certain point you need to find an actual human being who possesses the hands-on knowledge you want. You need to park yourself in the vicinity of that person and quiet down long enough to watch and listen and learn. You need to ask questions, and mull over the answers. Better yet, you need to find a part of the world where a human community, actual people living and working in proximity to each other, take cabinet making seriously.
Same thing with any of the martial arts. Same thing with swing dance. Same thing with jazz. Same thing with theatrical acting. You need face-to-face interaction with truly skilled people.
Same thing with European concert music. You need a conservatory. You need the culture around you. You need the Curtis Institute, or Julliard, or Berklee.
If you want to learn how to play blues harmonica very well--how to groove with other skilled blues players, how to entertain an audience, how to consistently get a good live sound, how to improvise skillfully over a range of changes to create a range of effects--then you need to play with lots of other people, in a range of performance situations. Duos, bands, jam sessions, blow offs, accompanying a singer. You need to play on many kinds of stages. The streets aren't a requirement--busking experience--but they're a great proving ground.
You need to play hundreds, maybe thousands, of gigs.
Every single player in my top 20 all-time list had this kind of experience. Every single player in the honorable mention list, I believe, had this sort of experience. Howard Levy, god knows, has had this sort of experience. The "experience thing" is a non-negotiable demand, if you want to become a strong, resilient, well-rounded player who can deliver professional performances virtually every time and inspired performances with some frequency.
What I'm saying in the last sentence of the paragraph above isn't, or shouldn't be, the slightest bit controversial. Given the overwhelming burden of evidence in its favor--the 80+ players I've mentioned whose lives exemplify the truth of it--I don't even think it's arguable. This is what fascinates me about the internet: it does so much, but there are some things it just can't do, even for the most passionately committed blues harmonica student in the world. It's for precisely that reason that I decided to share my knowledge freely on YouTube. The stuff that can't be shown, the stuff you've gotta live, is what ultimately makes the difference.
For the record, some of the terrific younger players who participate here--Brandon, Zack, Jay--haven't yet accumulated this sort of experience. Zack, leading his own band, has begun to accumulate this sort of experience. But all these guys WILL accumulate this sort of experience. If they want to become truly skilled and resilient blues players, they'll have to.
If you want to become a skilled and resilient martial artist, study in the dojo alone isn't enough. You need to move in and through the world; you need to find yourself challenged, repeatedly, by the world's claims on your temper, in the largest sense: your mettle, your wisdom.
It's not just about the notes, the technical considerations, the mics and amps. It's not just about knowing all the positions. That's stuff is all very important, but that stuff alone isn't enough. It's about knowing how to navigate all sorts of challenges that come up in real-world performance environments.
For the record, I'm STILL learning how to navigate those challenges. It's a lifelong process. The further along you go in this particular journey, the more you start appreciating the small things that make for a good performer. Last time I saw Jason here in Oxford, for example, he paced his first set beautifully. He didn't blow his wad on the first song. He also paced his soloing beautifully in the course of each individual song. That's why one of the first lessons the elders teach is "Take your time." It means "You've got enough time to say what you need to say. Relax. Take me with you."
What the internet CAN do is create a forum on a website such as this, where I can serve as an elder of sorts, giving fresh circulation to the age-old jazzman's phrase, "Take your time." What the internet CAN'T do is what the student who reads and believe in that line must do: go out and find a real-world application. Find a jam session; get up on stage; get beyond the fear so that you're able to actually listen to, and groove with, the players who are actually on stage with you. Then learn the gestural vocabulary through which you're able to control them in a non-awkward-seeming way long enough that you're able to play a solo in which you....take your time. And see how the audience responds. Did you take your time in a way that slowly and dynamically built the energy-level so that everybody was pulled into what you were doing? No? Back to the drawing board! But now you're actually beginning to learn your instrument, and live the life.
Last Edited by on Apr 23, 2010 9:21 AM
I should add that in my friendship/mentorship with Brandon, I've been happy to see him accumulate the sort of experience I describe above, since I know how crucial it is. From time to time I've tried to help the process along--getting him to my house party a couple of years ago to sit in with Satan and Adam, for example, and pulling him into Hill Country Harmonica so he'll have a chance to stand shoulder to shoulder with guys who've been out there longer and worry them a little with how well he's playing. :)
I just don't want anybody to interpret what I've said above as in some sense a gesture of closing-the-door-on-the-club. Quite the reverse. I take Robert Bly seriously. I think the older men have a duty to the younger men--a duty to share useful information, issue an occasional warning about the dangers that will be encountered on the road ahead, help set priorities, etc. In Christian contexts I hear they talk about "discipling" the youth. That's a little overcontrolling for me, but I still think part of my job is to say, "Hey, here's what the life I've lived has taught me about the sort of situation you're confronting." "Here's something you may want to think about." How does a musician set his own price, for example? That's an extremely tricky and nuanced question. It's something that blues guys--heck, pretty much everybody in showbusiness--thinks and talks about. Apart from the show itself (i.e., the aesthetic content of whatever you're presenting to the public and occupying your practice time with), it's THE issue.
Maybe I should do a YouTube video on THAT. Holy cow.
Last Edited by on Apr 23, 2010 12:44 PM
Adam-that was so wonderfully said. That about sums up my feelings about the subject. If I may add: they don't need to be old famous musicians. Every city has some seasoned accomplished musicians you've never heard of, that can teach you plenty.They may only be 35,but that means nothing.
Sarge: I have no idea. I am going to stick to posting new songs with no comentary and let the music do the talking. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
