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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Most successful (financially) blues harp player
Most successful (financially) blues harp player
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tmf714
64 posts
Apr 12, 2010
6:33 AM
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Most sucessful blues harp player financially-Kim Wilson maybe? Been doing it since the mid seventies-dont think he ever stopped-I know he gets big checks,but expenses,paying the rest of the band-just a thought I suppose.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2010 6:33 AM
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shanester
157 posts
Apr 12, 2010
7:30 AM
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All I can say is that there is something that becomes possible from a state of grace, of honoring your fellow human beings.
There is something available when we consider ourselves here to serve each other rather than to serve ourselves, to bring our gifts to bear to better the life of the whole, rather than just our own.
The illusion of our individuality, of being all alone in a dangerous world, is that which continues to create separation and disease the more we honor it.
Yes we are each a unique voice, one which is shared by no other and yet that is distinct from being an individual. That is the great paradox.
If you love to play music, play it joyfully, and in a context that works for you like Walter Tore has created for himself. What arises from that will be what serves you as a musician.
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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shanester
158 posts
Apr 12, 2010
7:33 AM
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If anything, to me the blues is the sadness that arises when that state of grace is violated by a selfish act.
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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shanester
159 posts
Apr 12, 2010
7:33 AM
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...by others OR myself.
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http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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Tin Lizzie
33 posts
Apr 12, 2010
7:46 AM
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I support artists getting paid without lots of middle men. I love stories about how people figure it out.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125783271
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Tin Lizzie
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waltertore
383 posts
Apr 12, 2010
7:54 AM
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"If you love to play music, play it joyfully, and in a context that works for you like Walter Tore has created for himself. What arises from that will be what serves you as a musician." - shanester
thanks for the compliment shanester! After 35 years at this thing, I am finally figuring it out. I play music because I have to. It is like having to breathe. If you don't you die. My life has been created around this need. My wife and I didn't have children because it would force me to abandon music. We moved to 3 countries, 5 states, and about 20 changes of addresses. Money was never my priority. If it was, I would have made alot. So, I can't complain for being cheated and selling myself cheap. We each have to decide what is right for us.
It all worked out because I went to college and now have a stable income and can create my music free of all the BS I dealt with 24/7 while doing it full time.
I have recently decided that I will not play for free anymore unless it is a special cause I believe in. Funny thing because I have "paid to play" countless benefits - gas, lodging, harp wear, etc... Then I did a benefit for a town in TX that was hit by a terrible tornado. Waylon Jennings, Niel Young, and TOny Jo White, were also on the bill. I found from them that when they do benefits it includes the paying of their expenses. They just donate their time.
Hobostubs: I am confused why you are quiting the forum.
Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2010 7:58 AM
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shanester
160 posts
Apr 12, 2010
7:56 AM
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Don't go Hobostubbs, have and receive compassion, we are all beset with human frailty of one sort or another!
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There is nowhere to go and nothing to find, only something to create.
http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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shanester
161 posts
Apr 12, 2010
8:02 AM
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Absolutely Walter!
To me you are, among other things, a very inspiring reminder that there is more than one approach to being an artist!
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There is nowhere to go and nothing to find, only something to create.
http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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phogi
389 posts
Apr 12, 2010
8:18 AM
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@hobo,
Don't leave man. I read all your posts and love 'em.
@Kudzu
Glad to hear you chime in. You know one thing I like about buying your lessons(aside from the awesome)? I know that you get most the money. Come to think of it, I'm going to buy a few more before I hit the road this summer.
I think you are right, MichalAndrew is viewing himself as justified, "Ayn Rand" style. But, Ayn is very clear in many of her works just how she feels about the usurper. In her view the desire to usurp is the root of most human evils. Some of her ideas are wrong. But not that one.
@arzajac,
I totally agree with you. I want the creator to get the money, not a middle man. And they middle man isn't even doing a good job of promoting quality anymore. Though, the music biz, when it works right, should promote quality. While that is not happening at the moment, I do imagine that at some future time another means will take its place.
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Kyzer Sosa
313 posts
Apr 12, 2010
10:56 AM
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i dont understand what has transpired in this thread to make anyone want to quit posting on this forum... its opinions bro... youll find the very same thing in a million other forums elsewhere. unlike a bushel of apples, one bad one wont taint everyone...
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Kyzer's Travels
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waltertore
384 posts
Apr 12, 2010
11:05 AM
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shanester: I have realized that making music and making money are in no natural way connected. Things like eating is connected to hunger, thirst to drinking water. Money in relation to music is totally unatural. I think once some offered a musician a dollar for a song, it has been an ever growing mess.
Commerical art and music are a different thing. If you do it via compromising to the paying customer, then it is as natural as eating is to hunger. The person pays, you play. That is what most music has turned into.
I do it for me. I am not out to please anyone but myself. Whatever turns me on is what I do. If someone wants to pay me for this, I will glady obligue. Otherwise, I will remain content in my own universe. I am thankful to the universe for steering me away from the commercial scene and providing doors of opportunity for me to do my music my way. They sure haven't come the way I envisioned them. I envisioned them coming via playing gigs/music full time- no day job for this boy. Instead they have come via quiting full time playing, going to college, and working on my dysfunctional baggage. Well worth the detour from what my head wanted!
I have been courted by BMI, 2 labels, and to do the soundtrack for the color of money. All three situations came to me via them "loving what I do". Well as soon as we got down to actually what would happen, I found out, I would not be allowed to do what I do. I would have to follow a strict outline for a preconcived product. I graciously bowed out of all of them. If there is a god and there is a hell, my sentence, if I am damed to hell, would be to have me in such a scenario for eternity. Imagine holding the instruments you love, surrounded by great musicians, in the top studios, top gigs, fame, fortune, people telling you how creative you are, but you would be as far from playing music as you would be fishing off a pier with no hook. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2010 11:12 AM
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shanester
165 posts
Apr 12, 2010
11:51 AM
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Yeah, Walter, I dig what you're saying.
I am a kindred spirit from almost the opposite pole.
Music has always been the filter through which I view life. There has always been a song in my head, someone else's or my own.
I've always felt like I was behind all my contemporaries in my twenties, when I started trying to learn, and my esteem was too low to share my playing with anybody for a long time it seems.
I had all but given up on it by the time I was thirty, and was living in the bitter resignation (self-imposed), that life was suffering and you don't get what you want. I was blaming my wife for it, even though she would try to support me by suggesting I play open mics, etc.
A little over a year ago, after doing some personal growth work with Landmark Education, I had a moment of clarity where I became overwhelmed with emotion and realized I could not live one more day of life like that.
Shortly thereafter, when my construction work in Austin dried up, I went to Baton Rouge to do some hurricane repair work for my wife's family. I had brought some tarnished harps leftover from my 90's musical journey with me and found Adam's videos while browsing for harmonica stuff.
It was the first time in my life that it ever occurred to me to check the internet for that kind of thing!
More than the lessons themselves, it was his way of sharing as an artist and a teacher that adjusted my molecules.
Now I am simply courageous. Where I am at in my path I accept all invitations to jam that I can (I was always too scared!)
When I played in a band back in the 90's, I had to be pretty toasted to deal with my stage fright, and be pretty disconnected.
So far, I've gotten to play with many minor rock deities from the sixties that live in, come through Austin.
I love supporting the song and getting called in the moment to solo, love improvisation!
I no longer have the nagging voices in my head of things to prove, needing to get paid, laid or both!
I am happily married and can appreciate occasional attention from the ladies for what it is. It is amazing how much sex was infused into every choice I made before I got married!
I play for shear joy, one day I will play the money game, but it will be a game, because to me, it is the place (music) where I am called to follow my heart.
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There is nowhere to go and nothing to find, only something to create.
http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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nacoran
1636 posts
Apr 12, 2010
12:05 PM
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Getting paid puts food on the table. The flip side of that though, is by demanding a price for something, you limit who can enjoy it, and with something like digital music that you aren't controlling a scarce resource anymore, or at least the distribution part isn't scarce, the production of individual pieces of music is. That's why I think the best system we could come up with now would be one like a subscription system. People listen to whatever they want for a flat fee, and the money gets divided up based on what people listen too. Maybe it's corporate music service, or maybe it's a tax on bandwidth and hard drive storage, or a general tax fund that goes to the arts based on some sort of popularity formula. I think, for better or worse, people assume they have the right to listen, watch or read whatever information is out there and the nature of the technology is making it very difficult for that not to be the case, at least not with very draconian intrusive law enforcement. So that said, I think we need to find a way for people who create 'Art' to get paid based on how much use the public gets out of what they do. Artists have to eat too.
Hobo- Don't go! This place wouldn't be the same without you! To answer you're post on previous page, I play for myself and because when my music actually works and somebody else hears it and likes it it's an awesome feeling for me. I wouldn't refuse money. I have debts I feel I owe that if I had money I could get out from under. I'd love to feel I was paying my way in the world, but I'd be happy if all I left behind in this life at the end is friends, a few good recordings and lyrics and maybe a finished novel or two and no debts to pass on.
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Nate
Facebook
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HarpNinja
378 posts
Apr 12, 2010
12:11 PM
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Blues player? Probably Kim Wilson based off of his work with the T-Birds and having read what they would make. I mean, as long as he has handled his money well. I wouldn't be surprised if there are guys making better yearly money today doing things related to blues harp - teaching, books, camps, etc.
But the "richest" harp player would probably be Bob Dylan (if you count him as a harp player) or someone like Stevie Wonder. John Popper has to be up there based on Blues Traveler's success and heavy touring over 25 years.
But yeah, guys that are in other parts of the biz probably net more profit than guys just touring.
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waltertore
385 posts
Apr 12, 2010
12:31 PM
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congragulations shanester for following your heart! Say hi to austin for me. I lived there for 11 great musical years. If you see these guys say hi:
speedy sparks,will/charlie sexton, david holt, ricky broussard, dave sanger, larry lange, tex thomas, jalapeno charlie, mike vernon, rich minus, montey warden, chris duarte, evan johns (I heard he moved back to austin) jim starboard, alex napier,
Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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MichaelAndrewLo
286 posts
Apr 12, 2010
1:14 PM
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I loved that analysis Adam! Damn you Ph.ds go in depth.. I do not see myself as an outlaw in terms of breaking the law for civil disobedience because simply, I am not breaking the law! Truth be told I don't use illegal downloading programs or sites anymore and all the music I find, I find legally! Youtube, lala.com, and friends sending me their music is all legal. Simply though, I would never BUY music and if I wanted some music that I had to buy, I will always check my other sources before spending money, which I never do. I have a strong code of ethics, and a VERY strong sense of fairness. If anything I will say that Phogi and Adam are being hypocritical in your criticisms of me "stealing" from an artist and saying I should support them if I enjoy their music. Do you buy computers, stereos, a cd player, cars, etc.? Well, the money that you spend does not reach the people that make it, or at least, the large percentage never does. If anything, you are stealing those poor chinese time away from them because they are paying through their labor cost for your cheap appliances. I know this happens, I'm aware. I simply do not care to worry because I can't. This makes me a very happy man. People who take the weight of the world on their shoulders are always misterable people and never change a thing in the end. Why do you not give the mcdonalds server an extra $10? You pay for the sandwhich, but is the person who made and produced it able to live off the wage they are making? Probably not! As you see, I don't care if they can't make enough money! If they want more MONEY, then it is THEIR concern to find a place where they make more! The price of the sandwhich, or the price I can get it without being prosecuted or caught, is my one and only concern, and yours too! Why is the arts any different? If anything, there is a glut of artists willing to do for free what those who demand payment for. This is how it will always be i think.. Those who DO want to make money in an artistic field must find ways to MAKE people pay and yes, litigation is one of those ways. The smarter way is to merchandise an art or image, something that can't be downloaded for free. A niche field like Adam's, it forces people to buy his lessons if they want them. I did not pay the price with some higher motive behind it: he has excellent lessons on youtube, better lessons on his site, and the ONLY way for me to get them is to pay. I value them for ME because I use them a lot and they are for my benefit only. That he benefits financially is not my concern. I find it egotistical and hypocritical when people say they have a higher concern for inherently selfish actions. Like having a baby, that is the most selfish thing someone can do, but most tout it as "I'm so caring I'm having a baby, it's such a selfless thing to do." Wrong. If you really cared about a child wellbeing, rather than selfishly procreating, then why not adopt a child? There is nothing WRONG with having a child for selfish reasons, or doing anything for selfish reasons, I just think the REAL reasons for most things are hidden underneath. I have no problem investigating that.
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MichaelAndrewLo
287 posts
Apr 12, 2010
1:29 PM
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Waltertore, I really respect what you are saying! I have agreed with pretty much everything you've said. You talk about playing music for the love of it, and I listen for the love of it! No money should be involved. The ultimate freedom. I really respect what you said about not having kids cause it would stop you from music. That sounds like you planned that out and realized it would be unfair to a child to put them through a unstable lifestyle. Far to few people realize what they really want and before they know it they have a wife and 3 kids and are ruining peoples lives with their selfish pursuits. I think a true artist in todays modern society would want to have as many people appreciate their art through any means necessary.
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Kyzer Sosa
318 posts
Apr 12, 2010
1:32 PM
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Hey guys... porn makes more money via the internet than music does with internet or POP sales. lets face it.. the porn industry knew that the age of the internet was coming 20 years ago AND ADAPTED EARLY, and music execs WITH THE SAME KNOWLEDGE never bothered to stay in stride. i see it as a sorely missed opportunity that, because of the nature of human beings, cannot be turned around the other way... theyve gotten bowled over and its steamrolled out of control. Its not the artists fault. none of them. Theyre hapless...
iTunes has over 2 billion downloads? (or something like that)...multiply that number by 10, and thats how many thieves there are. You cant fuck with those numbers. no one can.
Today's and tomorrow's musicians will make their money touring. PERIOD. well, and merchandising non music related stuff...
in the end, each of us will financially support those we give a damn about and to hell with the rest.
Great, now I want a Big Mac...
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Kyzer's Travels
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MichaelAndrewLo
288 posts
Apr 12, 2010
1:41 PM
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@ Congaron
""I, My, I, Me...." "I don't care"...Even at the age of 22, I would expect different statements from a nurse, who needs to be concerned with others out of a heart set on helping them. Nursing as a career choice to get free time and pay the bills seems a tad off track to me. My sister-in law is a RN and lives her life as the polar opposite of every attitude written here. So does every RN friend I have, and they are numerous."
The days of florence nightengale are over. Today, nursing is a job. My job is to assess patients reactions to their health and illnesses. Healthcare is a business. It does not really matter my motivations behind why I do my job, it gets done in a compassionate and professional manner. Ask most people why they are in nursing or going into nursing and they will never tell you the real reasons. Money is a perfectly legitimate reason to become a nurse and to work as a nurse. If your RN friends are as you say I hope they are working for free. Otherwise, we have the same attitude. No nurse that I know (and I know many) will work for free or donate their time for free. The hospital is making money off of nursing care. The administrators see nursing as an expense for the profit. Any smart nurse knows how to get what they are worth and those who go into nursing to simply "care" for people are sorely disappointed. How CAN you care for 15 patients at a time? Well, you have to become desensitized in the world of nursing otherwise you wont last. Only after you become a nurse in todays world and have a license to protect and carry your own patient load would you understand what I am saying.
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MichaelAndrewLo
289 posts
Apr 12, 2010
1:45 PM
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@ Kyzer EXACTLY.
Same with newspapers, they keep printing and realizing NOBODY is reading their shit! Only older people with subscriptions already. If they didn't adapt to take control of the new market, it is their fault. And why would you pay for wat you can get for free?? NOBODY does that. Here or anywhere.
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MichaelAndrewLo
290 posts
Apr 12, 2010
1:52 PM
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@ Congaron. Maybe you can conceptualize it, but you can't truly understand it until you've been there. Nursing used to be ONLY sitting at the bedside and providing emotional support. NOW, it is a technical profession with a huge amount of knowledge and skill required. The U.S. health system is largely geared to acute, procedural care. I am a nurse in this system and my practice reflects that. It IS ironic that you would say your RN friends are so caring but in the end, the bottom line is there. Or where you talking about ironic in terms of wanting to get paid for ones work? The ironic thing is that (1) nursing can't be outsourced (2) if they were not paid, they wouldn't work! Trust me, this was intentional and I knew I would be making money as a nurse. It is ironic that musicians think they deserve to get paid because (1) musicians and (especially) pop music CAN be outsourced and delegated to computers and (2) if musicians are not paid, they still will play.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2010 1:54 PM
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phogi
390 posts
Apr 12, 2010
1:59 PM
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I don't agree about music not being connected with money. Money is not evil. While I don't play harp for money (not good enough yet), I've played piano for money many many times, and it has literally put food in my mouth, particularly when I was poor. Now I teach about 200-250 students per day, 7 day a week, 180 days a year. It's hard but worthwhile, and relatively stable. Aside from a few jobs I had that were basically temp jobs, Music is the only way I've ever made money.
I happen to enjoy the teaching that I do for free. I teach my friends all kinds of stuff. I really like doing that. Teaching at school is harder and less fun because I also have to handle up to 90 kids in a class at a time. But that does not remove the value of what I do. It's just a little different.
And while I didn't happen to enjoy playing for money as much as other playing I do, for someone to say: "dude, you don't deserve money for your art, you should give it to us, WE deserve it..."
After you've spent literally thousands of hours on your craft.
"you should do it for the joy of it, so that we can take for free what you work for..." they argue.
or "you should be grateful anybody listens at all" ???
If someone really feels this way, they usually have not given the matter much thought. SO, usually I'm pretty casual about it, and just say how I feel.
Other times, they feel they are an instrument of change that will liberate the artist from an oppressive regime. They are not entirely wrong to feel this way. When I see people ripping off music, then sending the artist what they would have paid to the middleman (radiohead did this for a time with one of their albums), then I say, ok, cool, I can handle that. I may adapt this model at some point (from the consumer side, I mean).
I'm a big believer in giving people the benefit of the doubt. But when somebody says "your class of people don't deserve to make money..." WTF do you want? musical slaves? That is the attitude that led the music industry to become shady in the first place. You must have respect for people as humans. You must have respect for people's hard work. You must have respect for music.
I teach my students about copyright issues for two (edit: four^^) reasons.
1) So they can learn that musicians are not an uberwealthy class, like they are led to believe.
2) So they can minimize risk of prosecution (cause they do go after teens, not just adults - even though the risk is very small, its still a risk)
3)So that they at the very least think about what they are doing when they rip off a song.
4) So they can appreciate the work that goes into making music.
My generation needs to be taken to task on it's attitude about theft. While beatings may provide relief for the wronged, it likely won't do much good. What is needed is education, constant reminders, and, ultimately, a better system. Middle man OUT, Artists and fans IN.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2010 2:01 PM
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MichaelAndrewLo
291 posts
Apr 12, 2010
2:17 PM
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@ Congaron
"Ironic that you expect pay, but refuse to pay for what you want...regarding music. You can give up explaining your 22 year-old work ethic to me. You are wasting your time...for free. Thanks for the replies."
What does my age have to do with anything? The fact that I have a professional license and education says more than anything. The fact that I can accept and competently take peoples health and lives into my own hands say more than anything. People always bring up age when they are insecure in their own accomplishments and knowledge ("listen to me, I'm 50"). You have anything more to add than questioning me because of my age or asserting your own? And please stop saying it is ironic. It's very simple and logical NOT ironic. First phogi was flipping out about illegal music downloading. Well, that was 10 years ago. Today, me and all my friends (and my entire generation) don't HAVE to illegally download or pay for the music we want. It is FREELY given away. With millions more musicians given access to an audience, now there is a very big competition for listeners ears, let alone paying customers! We are ALL apart of this and benefit (musically) from this. I am surprised most of you are playing the devils advocate here. Again, what KyzerSosa eloquently stated earlier is spot on.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2010 2:18 PM
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MichaelAndrewLo
292 posts
Apr 12, 2010
2:32 PM
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Your education is not nursing I assume. I was correcting your assumptions about me and my profession. I hope your years of life and maturity allows you to stand corrected.
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Bluzdude46
589 posts
Apr 12, 2010
2:32 PM
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Did I hear Generation ME Me ME Me ME!!!!!!!!!!
And I don't mean Do Re Me
It's ok to expect to be compensated properly, It's great to be able to do it for what you choose, and love. It's not ok to think you are the only one that needs to be compensated correctly in order to do what they love. And if you don't like what you are doing, or you feel it isn't in any way fair, then you better make the choice to change or be miserable.
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The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
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shanester
167 posts
Apr 12, 2010
2:46 PM
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Let me clarify my perspective on money. Money certainly is not evil, and only relatively recently in life have I gotten that.
And I must not be money-driven, I netted over 100k a couple of years in a row from construction and I was miserable!
What I do say is that I am unwilling to indulge in any kind of self imposed suffering at the hands of the evil whatevers.
I play for joy and will pursue venues of profit that jibe with that experience for me.
I think a lot of artists could benefit from a little study and training in the area of sales and finance...
I think what is exciting about the demise of the industry is that there are many creative openings via the internet for monetizing one's art if they so desire and have the discipline.
While I may differ philosophically with you MAL on a few points, I don't judge.
I admire your authenticity and dedication to your purpose, that's integrity.
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There is nowhere to go and nothing to find, only something to create.
http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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kudzurunner
1328 posts
Apr 12, 2010
3:39 PM
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@Congaron: Please reread the board creed.
In fact, I hope that everybody will do that. Disagree about ideas all you want, disagree strongly, but keep it respectful, and don't make it personal.
As for Hobostubs: "i only been asleep about 4 hours in 3 or 4 days" is what he wrote earlier in this thread. He's got a lot on his mind, too. Reread his posts. Sometimes people need a break from all the talk here. Nothing wrong with that. Waltertore and Buddha have each quit the forum at least once over the past year.
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kudzurunner
1329 posts
Apr 12, 2010
3:43 PM
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@MAL: You're wrong. Lots of people pay for what they could get for free. It's called "tipping your local street musician." It's called "becoming a member of WBGO-FM Jazz 88," or WNYC-FM. It's called gifting the things you believe in, precisely because you don't have to.
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shanester
169 posts
Apr 12, 2010
3:53 PM
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Walter, I receive your "hi" to Austin. I will certainly say hello to those folks you mentioned if (or when) I get to meet them!
Let me know if you ever come this way, I would love to meet you!
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There is nowhere to go and nothing to find, only something to create.
http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
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congaron
803 posts
Apr 12, 2010
3:54 PM
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Posts deleted. FWIW, I think musicians deserve payment for sharing their talent and royalties when others cover their material.
Oh, and Bob Dylan.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2010 3:58 PM
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MichaelAndrewLo
293 posts
Apr 12, 2010
4:13 PM
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@ congaron comparing nursing/medical field vs. musicians. Well there is no comparsion. I will take apart your paragraphs because every word is dead wrong.
The irony is that you expect payment for your profession just because you think the medical "business" (I think they used to refer to it as a profession) depends on you for its survival.
- The whole point of the healthcare business is to help people live healthier, and longer, lives. Nursing care is directly rate to survival rates and death rates in hospitals. So, yes, peoples lives directly depend on us. Nowhere did I say medical business. It's healthcare.
At the same time you refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of professional musicians and their right to payment for their respective role in the music "business".
- Nowhere have I said professional musicians should not get paid for the music they play. If they provide music that is valuable to listeners, they need to adapt to the system to make it so that they CAN get paid. The way the system is, money streams have disappeared! If there is one thing healthcare is excellent at is changing to increase profits. Musicians can only blame themselves for not making money, not naptser, or illegal downloading etc. If they stopped complaining about that stuff and started innovating they would do what some very successful musicians are doing right now.
You believe you are indispensable to your "business" but musicians are disposable and unnecessary to the music business. The irony is that you are to the medical profession as a musician is to the music industry.
- WRONG WRONG WRONG! Nursing as a profession, and nurses themselves, are indespensible. People would DIE if there weren't nurses. Many diseases and simple things like a change in mental status in a hospital are prevented from causing deaths in a hospital. Nobodies life depends on music. And not just that, but computer programs and one guy in his basement can rival an entire recording studio of trained musicians. What is the equivalent for a trained nurses eyes to prevent a death? Can a computer ever provide grief support for hospice care? the answer is no. Can a computer create a hit song, make beats, and make shitty non musicians create a hit? You bet! And its been going on for years! And not only that, but the money speaks for itself. People consume that crap and pay lots of money for it.
.... Just a guy going to work and you want money for yours. You, however have yet to prove your own worth in your chosen "trade."
- I think my hospital and my patients would disagree with you?
I find that ironic.
- If you applied some logic and analysis to these situations the irony would disappear.
@ Kudzurunner yes you are right. I have donated to my own jazz station here at home KMHD89.1. Why does the "im a musician and I create art so I deserve money if people listen to my music" not seem hypocritical, but when I say that as a nurse, or if almost ANY other area says it, it seems out of place? I think simply blaming the system, or others, for loss of wages and/or a low wage is the wrong way. It doesn't change anything and only makes one depressed. From the musicians who I HAVE seen innovate the music business, all of them have included increasing access to their music. Adam you are a small example of this. You think if you simply started MBH and didn't have free lessons people would come here and buy your lessons? Not to the exposure or success you have gotten. They wouldn't know the quality of them nor would they be as excited! I think the key now is to generate buzz through any means necessary and then offer a consumable product.
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MichaelAndrewLo
294 posts
Apr 12, 2010
4:14 PM
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lol congaron you shouldn't have deleted ! darn it..
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congaron
804 posts
Apr 12, 2010
4:18 PM
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It was off topic. I expect you should do the same and delete the medical arguments. Nice try though. And you DID say it was a job and business.
"Today, nursing is a job. My job is to assess patients reactions to their health and illnesses. Healthcare is a business. "
I have deleted mine...hopefully you will delete yours. they are off topic and you are directing them at me personally. I'm not replying again.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2010 4:22 PM
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Tin Lizzie
35 posts
Apr 12, 2010
4:19 PM
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Must be about time for one of you to accuse somebody of acting like "a girl".... the ultimate insult for a boy of ten.
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Tin Lizzie
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Kyzer Sosa
321 posts
Apr 12, 2010
4:25 PM
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So in the end does it boil down to a moral issue? an issue that is dependent on each person? or the group of people they associate with? I think so.
If the apples are for sale with no one tending the money bucket, Im the kind of man that will put in my 10 cents apiece and walk away with a clear conscience. Ill not say ive never downloaded free music before, i have. GIGS OF IT in fact, but i dont have it anymore and couldnt possibly have listened to it all. Ive worked in a tipped profession for 6 years now and feel what it means when someone doesnt understand the 'customary', and thus, have changed my ways regarding music too.
10 years ago, pirating music was a sin in its infancy, and then it blew up! to see MAL's point, artists freely toss it out there for you to snag nowadays, not all, but a boatload. Artists have gotten smarter than their corporate business peers, and thats a good thing.
side note: i lknow 4 nurses, since middle school...people go into nursing school nowadays to make money. very few actually care about the well being of other people, they are in between jobs, and like MAL, see three pages of help wanted ads for RN's. 2-3 years of school can net you 6 grand a month almost guaranteed, right off the bat...its shooting fish in a barrel if you get that degree...sad but true, open the paper at the end of your driveway.
Hobo, if youre reading this, sorry bout the manpon crack in the other thread. i was looking for a light hearted change of pace. 4 hours in three days, geez i been there and it aint pretty.
ok im done.
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Kyzer's Travels
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MichaelAndrewLo
295 posts
Apr 12, 2010
4:28 PM
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I still think it's relevant and I don't get what you are talking about? Nursing as a profession and the JOB that nurses do is more vital to the business of healthcare and the lives of the patients than musicians are to the business of music. Most of the people IN popular music are not even musicians but "artists". They get much of the crap made on synths and computers sold, essentially cutting musicians out of the process. I think this relates very much to why ALL musicians make little money in the music business. The business men running the music business realized that they could make more money taking a "non musicians/no name" and coaching them to be a brand and exploiting them in the process. This happen to a certain extent in all business, but they have been successful in cutting out musicians, making them much less vital. That's all I'm sayin..
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Aussiesucker
595 posts
Apr 12, 2010
4:41 PM
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If you are a professional then your expectation and right is to receive proper compensation for your work. If you are an amateur then you are doing it out of love of your art and not for the money. There might be little difference in your playing skills as musicians but there sure has to be some business skills applied if making it your profession, surviving and doing well. These business skills need not necessarily be your own but could be in partnership with someone who has faith in your abilities and is able to rely on you as a person to deliver the goods.
As for donating 'what you think it is worth' this might work in some cultures especially where tipping is the norm. Over here it's certainly not the norm. Nobody would ever survive on tipping. You price your product or give it away free.
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conjob
26 posts
Apr 12, 2010
5:26 PM
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ok i have 2/3 of an economics degree and wish to offer a brief economic perspective on "illegal" downloads (it is a little off topic, ignore it if you're not interested).
first and foremost just because you take something for free doesn't mean you would buy it. this is why record companies figures for how much artists lose as a result of so-called illegal downloads are grossly overinflated, some studies even suggest that artists actually benefit from illegal downloads because people are exposed to thier music, more likely to come to thier concert or buy releases that they can't find for free.
i'll use myself as a test case here. i have tens of thousands of dollars worth of music on my i-pod. i simply wouldnt have most of it if i had to pay for it so for the artist the choice is have me hear your music for free or have me not hear it at all. i am a financial supporter of my local community radio station, i buy local releases and releases by less known artists (half because of conscience and half because i CANT find free downloads of the work of artists who are not already making a pretty good living). i frequently attend live concerts of big and small bands.
all things considered my expenditure on music this way is roughly the same as it would be if i only used paid avenues (i don't want to get into the legal illegal issue except to say it is not clear cut).
so the results of me "illegally" downloading copywrited material are as follows
1)i am exposed to more music
2) local and less-well-known bands get the money that i spend on music
3)richer, more well known bands recieve less of my money unless they tour near me
4)more of my money goes directly to artists and less goes to middle men
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conjob
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phogi
392 posts
Apr 12, 2010
5:31 PM
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I'm all about the music folks give away for free. Michael, your above post (the 'I think it's still relevant') post is one I entirely agree with. It's also why I think the quality of new music (that is promoted by the music biz) is so very low.
But you should support what you care about. If you don't care about good music, and especially if you don't care that musicians (not 'artists' as they call them now) are human beings, then continue on with your plan of never buying it.
Put your dollars where your soul is. Want more of the music you like? Buy it, promote it, it might stick around. That creates a win-win situation. Stealing music (and, to a lesser degree, expecting free music) creates a lose-lose situation.
And, everyone is a hippocrate [as in, a giant container in which you store hippos ;) ]. You can't have morals without it. And have no need for them without it. Yes, we live in America, which is imperialist, and the products we buy come at the expense of some poor soul making less than they should. BUT we still buy it. We don't steal it. We still pay, however little it is.
The 'that's so ten years ago' thing - Its not. Pirating is just as alive today as it was then. As long as people say it's OK, the problem will continue to get worse. It's not OK. Never will be. Just because the music biz robs musicians, it's not OK for you (or anybody) to rob them too.
Again, I realize I can't convince you. But ask yourself: would you be proud of your position? Would you say to your mother (I know not everyone likes their mother, but lets just assume assuming good parental relations, etc..) that you think its perfectly fine to steal music? While you backpedaled on your position about it (which points to some good sense), you've still got more room behind you.
These are rhetorical questions of course. But you do have morals, that is clear. Point them in a direction that serves the music you love.
P.S.
People hate it when you hold a degree over their head. Avoid at all costs.
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phogi
393 posts
Apr 12, 2010
5:36 PM
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Conjob,
I'll need to chew on that. Food for thought.
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Aussiesucker
596 posts
Apr 12, 2010
5:47 PM
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conjob> I find myself somewhat nodding to some of your logic.
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arzajac
145 posts
Apr 12, 2010
7:38 PM
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Here is a link to "Download Dissobedience"
http://blog.thesilentnumber.me/2010/01/download-disobedience-pro-piracy.html
and here is a Fact sheet regarding "Piracy":
http://www.infoanarchy.org/en/Copyright_Term_Reform/Download_Disobedience/Fact_sheet
@Phogi: When you teach copyright, do you mention Creative Commons? Basically, and artist/author can distribute her work under a subset of the rights reserved under copyright if the artist/author wishes to.
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oldwailer
1191 posts
Apr 12, 2010
8:57 PM
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Too much words--not 'nuff blues. . .
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Chinaski
77 posts
Apr 13, 2010
12:31 AM
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@phogi: Asking MAL to "put your dollars where your soul is" may be a redundant request.. ;-)
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Myspace
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Kyzer Sosa
334 posts
Apr 13, 2010
12:41 AM
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@ chin: i doubt it...
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Kyzer's Travels
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phogi
394 posts
Apr 13, 2010
3:40 AM
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Hey hay Chinaski, I mean it as in "Support the music that moves your soul" I don't presume to know the contents of his soul.
@arzajac,
I've not in the past, but I think I will in the future. that's a good idea. Thanks!
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waltertore
389 posts
Apr 13, 2010
6:18 AM
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Food for thought here:
Live music was the norm when I was growing up. A record was just a substitute until you could get to a club, park, street corner, coffee house, outdoor festival. Music was everywhere compared to today. It also was very affordable. The whole experience was affordable. Cheap beer, cheap gas to get there, cheap cover charges (I paid like 10 bucks to see Dylan at Madison square garden with great seats).
Now live music is just about dead compared to then, and the cost to see a good act is crazy. These restored theaters and big arenas are easily getting 30-many hundreds of dollars a ticket. Gas is high, drinks are high too. It all adds up to you plan very carefully when you go out to see a name act. Even guys like buddy guy are commanding these prices.
I wonder how this has, in combination with the technology boom, plays in the subject at hand. Big screen tvs, super sound systems, free downloads,..... Pretty soon you don't have to leave your home to see it all!
Smaller bands like most of the blues acts mentioned here are lucky to get $10 a head. Hotels and meals use to be standard issue with out of town gigs. Not anymore. Plus harps have gone from $4 for a marine band when I was starting out to over $30 now? Has this also played in the demise of live music? Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2010 6:37 AM
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Gwood420
119 posts
Apr 13, 2010
7:24 AM
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i downloaded two live jason ricci albums before i knew who he was.. ( i found out later that they are free at archive.org but i didnt know that at the time.. i listened to them, fell in love with the sound, and by doing so, i have seen his band 2 times in the last year+.. the first time i brought 2 friends, and together we also bought 5 cds and one shirt.. the second time, i brought 5 people and he didnt sell anything, but i would have bought a shirt and another cd(blood on the road)and im sure my friends would have too..
despite the fact that the music i downloaded was free anyway, if it wasnt for that free ave to his music, i may have never supported his show when he came to cleveland.. see i found him on youtube after the free downloading.. but i wouldnt have spent cash on the unknown.. how many times have you paid $15 for one good song followed by a cd of garbage... i would rather find a free ave to listen to music like pandora, archive.org, or even legalsounds.com(songs are only $.09 each.. how do artists make $ off that??), and then support the musician directly when i come to my town..
so was it a good thing i downloaded for free or a bad?? there is usually a ying and a yang.. i guess im just saying that free downloading can turn into higher proffits for a musician in some cases..
walter for instance, i wouldnt have probably bought your music, i had NO clue who you were.. but you give it out there to be listened to for free, and i like it.. you come to cleveland, i wwould come to support you.. all cause i had a free way to your music...
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oda
267 posts
Apr 13, 2010
7:37 AM
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The facts are these: If the consumer likes the product, the consumer will come back for more.
My generation has access to things that weren’t available just a few years ago. Internet is getting faster, sharing is getting easier. Gigabytes can be downloaded in minutes. The keyword with our generation is “SHARING”. It is not stealing. That’s how loyalty is rooted. Adam shared his YOUTUBE lessons with the world. I followed along. I liked what he was doing. So I am here on his forums and I’ve bought his lessons. If I didn’t like it, I’d go elsewhere – y’dig?
RADIOHEAD did something highly innovative and I think that’s the direction music distribution is heading; On October 10’th, 2007 – “In Rainbows” was released on the radiohead.com website. The entire album was offered as a free download. The price? “pay what you can”. It was the first major album that had a price determined only by the consumer – leaving open the option of not paying anything at all.
There is not going to be a middle-man anymore.
My generation will always “try” before we “buy.” (p2p, torrents, ftp, irc)
Who wouldn’t? Knowing that even under the sexiest of record deals, y’know, the kind reserved for multi-platinum stars --- the musician can only end up with less than 30% of the overall sales revenue.
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oda
268 posts
Apr 13, 2010
7:51 AM
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Michael,
I want to make an observation; It appears to me that you’re way of dealing with the world is to disconnect yourself. Unfortunately, that is the inherit problem. Our generation is very antsy, eager, and impatient. Throw in disconnection, and a need to look out for #1 – and you’ve got a good idea of who our generation is breeding.
“I know this happens, I'm aware. I simply do not care to worry because I can't.”
that is the mentality. It’s like the by-stander effect in psychology… people see someone in need of help, but no one does a thing because they think someone else will (or should) do something. They unburden themselves from any blame. It all starts with a single action and a single person.
You talk about over-worked Asians, servers not making enough money, then you say
“As you see, I don't care if they can't make enough money! If they want more MONEY, then it is THEIR concern to find a place where they make more!”
This view is oh-so-common. It reminds me the Libertines’ view on the poor and charity
“it accustoms the poor man to doles which provoke the deterioration of his energy; when able to expect your charities, he ceases to work…”
“Would you have no flies in your bed chamber? Don't spread about sugar to attract them into it. You wish to have no poor in France? Distribute no alms, and above all shut down your poorhouses. The individual born in misfortune thereupon seeing himself deprived of these dangerous crutches, will fend for himself, summoning up all the resources put in him by Nature, to extricate himself from the condition wherein he started life; and he will importune you no longer.”
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