I've been fooling around with looping as an improvisational tool. Essentially, my idea is to just start out with a beat (made up on the spot), and then to additively layer snippets of harp playing on top of it until it's a fully filled out track, and then continue to blow freestyle harp over it. Unlike my normal approach to looping where each loop is it's own "track" or full featured rhythm/melody/harmony line, in this approach I'm only adding one or two notes to the overdub at a time. At first, it doesn't sound like much, but it continually builds, and before you know it, it sounds like something!
It doesn't always work, and when it does, it's impossible to repeat exactly the same way. So, as usual, I started recording myself doing this, and I happened to capture one that "worked" (at least in my own humble opinion!). I'll embed it here:
The video shows the whole process of how the track evolved. A little before midway through, I've finished filling out the loop, and I start to just improv over it at it plays. After I turned the camera off, I plugged my looper into my computer and recorded the loop straight to disk. This way, you can hear the loop in it's "pure" state, straight out of the looper with no amplifier, no defects from my camera's bad mic, and no YouTube sound degradation.
PS, if you are wondering why I'm sideways, well, I turned the camera so I could get the pedal and me in the same shot. I kind of like it sideways, so I didn't bother flipping it! :) ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2010 11:23 AM
i spend the beter parrt of two hours in a sam ash, doing JUSt what you are doing here. I want to start weeding out my SP20's, and I also want a pedal ala de looping too... AND i gotta pony up for hill country. for chrissakes, somebody besides superchucker bring one of there there!!!! ---------- Kyzer's Travels
Personally, I would be a little more purposeful in what I was laying onto the groove. It eventually sounds like a traffic jam with construction noise because you have overdubbed so much into it. Perhaps if you got down and ran some deep groove riffs over the top of what you were doing, I would have found the background looping more relevant. Instead, you play something that is similar to what you have already put into the loop. I get cacophany instead of melody.
I hear you. Mainly, i wanted to get a conversation about looping as form of improvisation that's different than the kind of improv we are used to doing in that it's "additive" rather than "transitory". The part I think you are describing is when I attempt to do "transitory" improv over the loop that I created with "additive" improv, and I agree with you. That part is fairly unfocused and clashes with the loop at many points. Just for the record, I was recording this session for my own purposes, and not for YouTube and it's a lot messier of a video than I would normally have uploaded. Mainly, I was just hoping that it would spark a discussion about the nature of improv,and how technology affects it.
What did you think of the loop track itself (the audio track below the video)? To me, the ability to additively and selectively layer sounds together lets you make music you CANNOT make otherwise. And I'm not just talking about usign overdubs to make rhythmic variations that are hard to play normally. I'm talking about making melodies and harmonies that you can't get otherwise. For example, you can play a 4 draw at one point in the loop, and then overdub a 4 blow at the same point later on. This gives you a double stop that you can't play on a normal harp (on a C harp, this would be C and D together). You can continue this idea, and build chords that don't exist as playable chords on a normal harp, and do other note combinations that produce cool overtones you can't get from just playing harp normally.
isaac, in the time i spent with the pedal at sam ash, not once did i make anything i would have been proud to put on youtube. What you posted looked to me like a man who realized the possibilities available with this a new toy. Your sound was a mix of careful consideration, and playfulness. nothing wrong with that... your principles are intact, and i can only see you getting better with it as you spend more time with it.
i LOOOOVE the idea behind your second paragraph, which is why i think you can excel at it. I thought the audio track completely trumped the vid in every way. are you coming to hill country? ---------- Kyzer's Travels
Why does it not surprise me that you'd be the one to bring this to the forum? Very Cool By the way, I can't get the loop track to play but the video was fantastic. Loop track shows 0:00/0:00.
Looping is a great tool and I agree with Kyzer that your tracks will get better as you develop. One thing I noticed with Loop tracks is that if the piece being looped is off time then it all starts to sound like noise very quickly. But I guess that could be the beauty of looping too. ---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Kyzer. Thanks for that. Mainly, I was replying to Kingo's criticism, which was certainly valid. I just wanted to quickly respond to it, and then refocus the discussion back onto looping as an improvisational tool, rather than a critique of my own song (which I know needs it!). And I am unfortunately unable to go to hill country harmonica. I'm bummed about it, but the rigors of grad school, the economics of my empty wallet, and the politics of marriage prevent me from coming. Hopefully I will be able to make a similar event in the future. It would be really cool to carry on this discussion in person, over some actual looping pedals and beer or three.
X-harp. Thanks for your compliments and for your thoughtful contribution to the topic. You are right. Timing is absolutely critical with looping. Unlike live playing where your mistakes are transitory and disappear soon after you make them. If you screw up while looping, it get's recorded and keeps coming back to haunt you. At the moment, I'd say that I screw up on 4 out 5 loop attempts. Most of these mistakes (say 3 out of 5) are at the very beginning, so it's not to difficult to stop and reset, but I still have a few loops where I mess up too far into the track to just stop and not have an audience notice. Until I can totally eliminate that kind of screw up, I'm not confident enough to take this out in public. I hope I'll get there soon, because that 5th time out 5 is magic!
Isacullah, I was only letting you know what I thought. I know you understand that. I realize that it was probably astarter for conversation, but I hate it when people ask for feedback and they never get to hear a true criticism for their playing. i loved the possibilities of it, just didn't like what I heard for the reasions i explained previously.
Enough of that though. I love the idea of looping possibilities. My next purchase was going to be a loop pedal, but a chance find of a vintage jt-30 just yanked those funds.
I do like the idea of exploring otherworldly possibilities with the 4 blow 4 draw double stop. Now if you could get that double stop as part of a groove line, well then you have magic.
Perhaps my idea is a little linear in looping - or at least the ideas that I have done watching everyone else do it and diddling around at guitar center. I would lay down the beat, then add a bass line, then add a rythmic line like a rythm guitar style lick, then I would let myself go playing and singing over the top of it.
Of course you could add multiple horn lines, etc., but I personally would be trying to mimic a whole blues band.
You seem to be experimenting with other things that could bear much different fruit than the way I would go about it - and that is cool.
I think, what I was trying to point to before was that someone looping needs to be careful how they "jump in" on their overdubbing. If you tend to land on the same beats too often, you have a non melodic throb with lots going on, but no flow.
I think even in improv looping, you need a quick improv picture of what you are going to build before you start. That way you can build the groove from the ground up instead of shoveling it all on top and hoping your pile doesn't fall over.
I don't know if you have any low harps, but my favorite thing to do in Audacity right now is to layer a low harp with a higher harp in a different position. I only have the LLF for a low harp, but I like playing a C over it. It's like using a bass and a guitar, and the different positions give it even more tone difference. Of course, in Audacity, at least theoretically, I can have longer loops and since I'm not trying to do it in one take I get more bites at the apple.
It did get a little busy after the first couple of loops. That may have been because the second loop was so close in pitch to the later stuff. Different effects could change that too. That first part was really killer. It sounded so forlorn and lonesome.
Kingo. I certainly appreciate your feedback! It means a lot to me! I just want to be clear that I'm not saying I didn't want your feedback, I just wasn't seeking it specifically in this thread. Looking at my first post, I realize that I didn't make that very clear. Sorry about that. I will certainly take your advice to heart though, now that you've given it! :) Okay, moving on to the other things you said. Yes, "improv" looping is very different than the "linear" looping you are talking about. I'm making the distinction in terms of "methodology" not "outcome". I wouldn't ever say, for example, that one way is "better" than the other. You can do different things with each method (and they have some areas of overlap too). The LAST thing I'd want to do is to start a "TB v. LP" type debate over looping style! lol! :)
Actually, I think I see three types of looping. You're talking about the first type. Guys like Son Of Dave typify this approach. In this approach, you use the looping device to layer the different backing parts of a song, and then you play over that loop as if it were a band playing. I'm as fond of this approach as any other. I'd call this type "straight ahead looping", and it's probably the most common type you'll come across. You can do this with ANY looping device.
The second type is one I might call "independent looping". This type is more rare, mainly because you need fairly advanced gear (read "expensive). Guys like Dub FX and Mr Woodnote characterize this approach. In this approach, you layer sounds similarly to the straight ahead approach, but you layer them into SEPARATE loop slots, and as you fill them, you alternate between muting and trigger them all independently. In this approach, you build PORTIONS of songs as independent loops, and then manipulate the loops "live" to make the song. You can sing or play over the loop too, but the key difference is that you continually manipulate the loops even after you record them. You need a looping device with independently controllable loop slots to do this kind of looping.
And then there is the third kind of looping, "improvisational looping", which is what I started this thread to discuss.
I'd call people who generally use the first approach "artists who loop", while people who take the second two approaches "looping artists". I say this because the first approach uses looping to fill in for other things, whereas the second approach uses the loops themselves to actively "make" the music (or at least part of the music).
Nacoran. Yeah, I do that all the time. I find it's the best way to make the solo stuff stand out over the loop. I'm still working out how to get all the levels set right using my looping setup. In fact, I'm considering to start using a software setup in a live setting because you have muchmore control over loop levels, feedback controls, etc. Plus, I think I need to start using a totally squeaky clean amp. My amps are all "dirty" to one extent or another, so they tend to muddy up very quickly as the loop builds. That's the main reason I included the mp3 file that I recorded straight the hard drive.
Regarding that MP3 file. I've been listening to it a lot. I think that the fully realized loop, as recorded in that file, works really well. I think all the "business" and offbeat stuff and repetitive stuff came from me when i was playing over the loop, not the loop itself. I think the loop plays well. It plays like a song. A somewhat repetitive song, but it a song nonetheless. I suppose one approach to looping could be to build up a loop, and then just walk away and let the loop play?!? :) ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
There was a video someone posted a while back with a couple of guys using a loop petal and a sax. I don't remember their names. I think they probably had, as you put it, 'fairly advanced gear'.
I think you hit on something when you joked about building up a loop and then walking away. Their set up seemed to let them drop parts back out of the mix pretty easily when they needed to put something new in. The stuff I'm doing in Audacity is mostly two harp tracks and some vocalizations, but my computer is underpowered and it crashes a lot when I try to add effects when I've got more than one track loaded. (I've had to resort to cutting tracks out, closing the file, and opening a second track, then pasting the second track in.)
Any ideas on how much horsepower a computer needs to do this stuff live? I'm pricing out a new system. Maybe I should be looking at a laptop instead so I have something portable.
Nacoran. You are thinking of "Mr Woodnote". You can find him on the same youtube channel that Dub FX is on. Yes, they use the big (and expensive) boss loopstation.
If you are going to go the software route, I would suggest using Linux or Mac, with the JACK audio server (free) and SooperLooper or Freewheeling (also both free). Obviously more power and more RAM is best, but I'm able to do live looping on my ten year old IBM thinkpad. The secret is to install a VERY small OS that is made for audio. I use PureDyne Linux with the Xfce windowing system. It's super small, and so keeps a lot of system resources free. Once I've got the system set up the way I want, I'll modify the startup script so that the windowing system never loads (ie, it stays a unix terminal), and so it will autostart the JACK audio server, SooperLooper, and JackRack (which is a super powerful software DSP effects rack with hundreds of effects). Using this setup, there is NO latency, and it sounds just as good (or better) than using my Digitech RP155 pedal.
I saw Mr. Woodnote with Lil' Rhys busking in my home town a few weeks ago. Absolutely blew me away! He was using the Boss RC-50 loopstation and a multifx rig (didn't get the model).
If you like old school hip-hip then you'll love his album. Best tenner I've spent on music in a long while.
Thanks, Isaac, for your thoughts and advice on this. Your types-of-loopers categorization is excellent. Really, really, giving a leg up for those who want to give this a go. I'm a Linux geek, so will try out the software and distro you mention. Again, many thanks for sharing your experiments and ideas. Takes a lot of guts to do this at an early stage.
MrVLUN: I've seen all of Mr Woodnotes YouTube vids, but I didn't realize he has an album out! That's awesome. I'll definitely check it out!
Mrso&so: I'm glad that my ramblings are of use to some folks here! Yeah, Linux rocks. If only the rest of the world knew that they are paying all the money for software that they could get as good or better versions of for free! Check out PureDyne, but also have a look at Ubuntu Studio. Both are distros optimized for live audio, and come with a bunch of cool audio packages. There are A LOT of musical possibilities with these distros. Way more than with any windows/mac system you could cobble together...
Nate: Let me know if you need any specific tips on getting your system up and running. I'm still tinkering with mine, so it would be cool to bounce ideas around. The main thing I have left to do is the USB keyboard to footcontroller conversion. I have to think hard about the layout of the keys I'll want to use... There are LOT's of possibilities, each with pros and cons... ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
