Seriously though, I'm not kidding. Could you look him in the face and say what you've said here? Hey man, great playing, but that one note was out of tune?
But, I should say, I don't have so much of my identity tied to the blues that anything out of it's 1952 box threatens it.
Strange even if you play great blues but experiment with other styles of music your no longer considered a blues player. I guess we should take Butterfield out of the blue genre then.
PLEASE do not take this the wrong way, BUT you guys act (write) like you are all married and arguing all time. And yes, we need to disagree on things in the world or there would be a dictatorship going on in all areas of our life and life would be bland.
But there are some of you that think you are demigods or something and shoot down folks in a very MEAN manner instead of good spirited discussion. A while back I was reading some post between a biker and a guy with killer trained dogs with death threats between each other, yeah, real kool harp players!
I played in a blues band and a honky tonk band for seven years and I would have harp players show up and demand a chance to play or have competing harps even when it was not appropriate, like our first time playing at the venue. Some would show their ass and want to fight and others would sit at the first table and play along (out of tune usually) and throw me off.
I have never seen guitar players be so aggressive as harp players. What's with you guys, ya'll act like a bunch of rabid dogs at each other instead of being civilized about it. It is "OK" to disagree and have spirited discussions, that is how our country and freedom came about but some of you blow me away with your comments.(especially the guy with the killer dogs and threatening to use them on people if he feels threatened in his expertise).
I for one respect the HELL outa Jason Ricci but personally do not care for his style, this does not make him a bad player or me a bad person, just personal taste. This will be my last post here for I see that you guys have missed the boat on what life and playing the harp is all about.(mean and vicious remarks and death threats are what I am talking about!)
I would take the "sitting in" clip with a grain of salt to some extent anyways. It has been pointed out that he is using someone else's gear...I am sure the harp was his and at least set up ok. But, and here is the big thing IMO, he is sitting in with a band. That often means a little head cutting, even if it is well intended.
I bet under different circumstances he might have played differently. I've heard JR play a ton of amazing blues from traditional-traditional old school acoustic stuff to what he does during a punk song. The original YouTube post seemed a little more forced regarding the ob/ods than some of his other stuff. But again, there was probably a lot going on in his mind. Obviously, if you're sitting in with a named band like that, you want to impress - especially when those people may come to your shows or buy your CDs in the future.
But for sitting in with a band like that, it smoked! ----------
@7limiJI....yes...listen to their 1st position stuff (btw, Kim is my favorite trad player of all time). There blow bends aren't "in tune" either (or other bends). Also, most of the guys in that camp, not all and not all the time, play things relatively safe.
The ob issue isn't really about pitch, it is the timbre, and that can vary from harp to harp and from attempt to attempt. It is a harder technique to master than the other bends.
Another item: Phrasing. Sometimes, maybe even the majority, you have blues players playing riffs to create phrases. Than the other school is more based on shapes (for lack of a better term). Not necessarily patterns, but the rhythm is the focus of the phrase and not the order of notes.
David Barrett's approach is based almost entirely off of the riff approach, for example. So when guys use that approach, it is the order of riffs and not the actual riffs that vary. Meaning, if you have mastered a riff, the chances of screwing it up are probably lesser than if you are bit more focused on rhythms or other factors.
That isn't a judegement on either approach. I just know from my experience a riff based blues approach is much easier to play "perfectly" than when coming from another approach. Riffs don't mean you're necessarily thinking as you play, and most people who don't phrase specifically in riffs still throw in riffs here and there.
I feel like I did a poor job explaining what I mean, but maybe it sorta makes sense.
For all you old enough to remember, there used to be a Saturday Night Live skit with Dan Aykroyd and Jane Curtin called "Point-Counter Point". Jane would always start out with her point and then when it came time for Dan to counter--point he would look at her and go..."Jane, you ignorant slut!"
While there is some of that happening here, the attack dog thing Steve is mentioning is most likely Buddah joking about his dogs. (he's a dog trainer). Kind of an inside joke for some but if you saw his vid of his dogs attacking the well padded bass player from Jasons band (Buckweed)...you would know it was all in fun.
"But there are some of you that think you are demigods or something and shoot down folks in a very MEAN manner instead of good spirited discussion. A while back I was reading some post between a biker and a guy with killer trained dogs with death threats between each other, yeah, real kool harp players!"
Steve, when somebody threatens to kill you. Do you take it lightly?
I don't care if you do or don't. I certainly DO NOT. Now, I have never threatened the life or another person first. And if somebody where saying that to my face you can believe that I would not take it lightly and that person would have one of two things will happen, a knife shoved under his chin and into his mouth or he would have a dog on him. I do not dick around with threats to my life.
I do not believe in turning the other cheek. In the music world, when somebody steps on my stage and wants to cut heads, I will destroy that person. Jason has experienced this before when we first met in person. He learned very quickly it's a mistake to cut heads with me and as relentless as he is, I was dominating and showed him zero mercy, its simply the way I choose to carry myself.
To be on point about Jason. I have known him personally for well over a decade. I likely know him better that most is not all of you. Jason is easy the most bad ass player on the planet. I've never seen more depth, intensity and energy from another harmonica player. PERIOD.
However, he is a blues based player so those of you who think he can excel at any style of music, you are dead wrong. As great as Jason is, he is first and foremost a BLUES-based player. Everything he plays is based around the blues and pentatonic scales. He's also a pattern player and dabbler of other style but will never be better at any other style of music than he is at blues and rock. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and I love that he adds ELEMENTS of other styles to his blues music because it makes his music that more interesting.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Josh Miller kicks ass too-for a younger guy,he sure nails the Mudddy Waters and Chess tunes. I attend the jam there at The Beach Shack on Thursdays,which is usually led by Mark Korpi-the late Gary Primach's song writer and guitar player. Great venue,great jam.
Last Edited by on Apr 05, 2010 8:15 AM
in two pages of a harmonica forum, but heigh-ho and, with any luck...
Back on topic!
Thoughts / questions:
1. Enjoyed the videos, thanks for posting!
2. Isn't the idea of great "straight-ahead Chicago blues" a bit misleading?
All the great Chicago blues players, are IMHO great precisely because they're NOT straight-ahead...
3. Thinking about it a bit more, aren't genres themselves - although certainly useful when communicating about music - of limited use when discussing what we like about players who push the boundaries of the genre?
Easier, surely, to talk about what one likes and dislikes about such a player with a far wider frame of reference?
"There blow bends aren't "in tune" either (or other bends)."
If the intonation is off, its on purpose, not because they've made a mistake,or picked the wrong note. Kim Wilson leans very heavily on the upper blow bends in 1st position. For effect, not because he can't hit the note.
William Clark bending the lower note of an octave to make it trill. Not musically correct, but sounds great. He could hit the note spot on, but chooses not to.
Jason hit the right note in the wrong place. It sticks out like a sore thumb.
The same note placed somewhere else would have worked. Maybe as a passing note or to create tension.
I'm not against OB's. Jason is a superb player.
To make an omelette you need to break eggs. Maybe to expand the genre you need to experiment. Maybe next time he should try it in private.
Regarding riff base blues,being easier.
Some top musician or sports player was being interviewed and was told "You must be really gifted"
His reply " Yes and the more I practise ,the more gifted I become "
Maybe some players just make it sound easy !!
I know the more I practise ,the easier it becomes :o)
Just to be clear, certain aspects of phrasing within a riff based approach are potentially easier to play correctly at a higher percentage than when not phrasing in riffs.
I don't want all riff playing to necessarily sound "easier". ----------
Jason plays first position blues just like others mentioned except for one thing. He does not play it safe by jumping from the top ocatave to the bottom ocatave. He uses holes 4,5,6 too. Sometimes I think frustration with overblows turns some people into Anti-OB'ers. Buddha is correct. With proper harp set-up and technique, 6 hole OB comes just as easy as 6 blow, 6 draw, and 6 draw bent. It takes time but the tone will come too. As far as Jason and blues....the first three minutes of this video proves that Jason's phrasing, improvisational skills, and passion for the music are phenominal. Watch Walter shake his head in the second break.
Yeah, Jason plays some far out shit (a lot of which I really like), but he's definitely rooted in the blues. This is one of my favorite clips of him playing the hell out of straight-ahead blues, for a sound-check no less:
Sitting in and having to use someone else's harps can often times lead to results that are far less than pretty, especially if that harp was from someone who beats the crap out of them (and that includes playing them too hard) and if you've gotten used to playing customs and then have to go back to stock, the difference is often quite dramatic and you often times have to make adjustments while you're playing because things you could do quite easily on a customcan at times be quite a chore on a stock harp, and if you're an OB player and the stock harp isn't properly set up for playing that style, it can wreak havoc with that.
Sitting in is just sitting in, and it ain't like you're playing on your own gig and so stuff can happen, both good and bad.
I've sat in with Jerry Portnoy a number of times and I've seen him watch me very keenly and there's always a sense of one upmanship with even the best of friends looking to get each other's best from them and so with that, what's the big deal unless you've got an ego problem. This same thing has happened when I sat in with Mark Hummel. It's only natural. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
who cares if he fucked up a few notes. All adventurous and in the moment players are going to do that.
Jason often has intonation issues but so what, the experience of hearing him play is so overwhelming that is doesn't matter.
Jason, is amazing at what he does but he doesn't have advanced theory under his belt but that doesn't matter because he's Jason Ricci.
He's an amazing soloist but not a great improviser but so what? he's Jason Ricci and that means he's going to overwhelm you with his intensity, depth of emotion and amazing energy.
The only people that care about wrong notes are the people who can't play RIGHT OR WRONG notes so all of you who have an issue with what he plays should STFU now.
The man is blazing a new trail for all of you followers so accept what he does or blaze your own trail.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
I would rather watch Jason or another adventurous player push the limits of stereotypical or 'safe' blues playing and perhaps slightly falter a bit than watch someone who takes no chances and breaks no new ground, no matter how 'perfect' they played their part. ---------- Todd L Greene. V.P.
Last Edited by on Apr 05, 2010 1:01 PM
I know the accolades are aplenty, but how can Buddha say Jason is not a great improviser. Should he be reading tabs or sheet music? Surprised to hear that and interested as to why you make that comment.....Go back to the Walter Trout video a few posts back.
Jason simply is not a great improviser. He's uncomfortable in situations and music he's not familiar with. ie; he's never sat in with my band.
Did you know Carlos del Junco isn't a solid improviser either? All of his solos are pre-planned.
It's not a dis on these guys at all. Some people have it, some don't. I couldn't pre-plan a solo if I had a gun to my head, I'm just not wired that way.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Quite a lot of heat on this thread, and, on occasion, too much attention to trivial things--such as whether Jason's overblows are precisely in tune--rather than important things.
Wanting to make sure that I hadn't deluded myself on a first listening, I went back and listened to the video with which I started this thread. Although Jason throws a few overblows into the first 1:30, they're not what interest me. What interests me is how he absorbs the whole history of Chicago blues into what he's doing and spits it right back out as his own voice.
Not that anybody has said this, but I couldn't care less whether Jason tongue blocks absolutely every note he plays here. I suspect that he doesn't; he just tongue blocks a lot of notes. In particular, he makes heavy use of the 25 draw "octave" (a dominant seventh interval, actually) and the 36 blow octave, and he does so in a way that is deeply idiomatic and at the same time the "one step beyond" that I've been clamoring for: he kicks it up, as Emeril would say. He does the same thing on the 2 draw and below--all those little cadency things that are part of the Chicago blues tradition. He hits the 3 draw brutally hard and never flattens it too far. If you watch what he does with his shoulders, you'll see where the strength and precision of his grooving come from.
He does a whole lot of other things later in the song, when he moves into his overblow language, but mostly what he's doing here, in the first 1:30, is grooving very hard within a straight-ahead Chicago groove.
To be blunt, not many contemporary players hit it as hard as Jason is hitting it here. I've seen most of the big names live. Rod Piazza, 20 years ago, played with the same ferocity. Mark Hummel can, when he wants. Billy Branch swings very hard but he doesn't hit it as hard as Jason is hitting it here. Little Walter almost never hit it this hard. Big Walter often DID hit it this hard. William Clarke did on some occasions--"Pawn Shop Blues," for example--but mostly he swung hard rather than hitting it hard.
Cotton is the guy who really knew how to rake his reeds over the coals like this.
In any case, I remain glad that I unearthed this particular video and am glad that it provoked so much conversation. As for the slow blues that Jason does on an F harp with Walter Trout: I wish I could play slow blues like that. I need to go back into the woodshed and get my timing together. The overblows in THAT video--on an F harp, no less--sound in tune to me. But that's just me.
As for the question of whether Jason is a good improviser: next to Buddha and other jazz guys, we blues harp guys all suck, obviously. But I like Jason's note-choices. I don't hear a lot that's pre-planned. Blues players--Little Walter, B. B. King, Albert Collins, Pinetop Perkins, Sonny Terry, etc.--improvise differently than jazz guys. That doesn't mean they're not improvising, or can't improvise. Sometimes the improvisation consists of taking a pattern and reframing it slightly relative to the beat, or repeating it a new number of times in a way that lands you in a challenging place, melodically speaking, and forces you to extricate yourself gracefully with a another pattern, or something drawn from another pattern, that is itself forced to compress or expand itself slightly in order to ease you across the bar line and into the next chorus in a fluent, graceful, energetic way. These repetitions-with-slight-variations, in a blues context, aren't necessarily something that impresses people more committed to free-jazz aesthetics, but that doesn't mean they're not legitimate acts of improvisation. In any case, the sort of absolute freedom that Buddha is privileging here as an improviser's aesthetic would actually, in this particular Chicago blues context, represent a flagrantly disruptive, mistaken approach to the demands of this specific improvisatory moment. Thankfully, Jason was up to the task at hand.
Last Edited by on Apr 05, 2010 2:17 PM
I don't mean to imply that Jason uses pre-planned solos. He's amazing at what he does. You can stick Jason in an ambiguous situation and expect him to perform with the same confidence he exudes when he's playing blues.
I know Carlos uses pre-planned solos. On a few occasions he would play a recording of a solo he was working on for me to get my opinion. There is much to be said for working out "perfect" solos. I can't do that.
Take a guy like Howard Levy, drop him off anywhere on the planet and you'll find him hours later playing with whatever group he can find and playing their music brilliantly.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
"EV, when you are able to produced every note on the harmonica perfectly then you can spout off like I do but you can't so STFU about Jason's playing."
Buddha, when you can play a blues that swings and has decent tone, instead of sounding like a nervous prog rock jam newbie, then you can spout off like I do but you can't so KMA.
Looks like a stand off to me, because I'll never be able to produce every note on the harmonica perfectly.
one of you said "Wow. You guys bicker and snipe like a bunch of nitpicky little girls."
Isn't that interesting. Nary a woman in sight. In fact the women NEVER carry on the way you guys do. This is definitely testosterone poisoning, and little girls don't suffer from it.
I guess the players play and the others, uh, talk about it.
It's part of why I love it, but perhaps the size of the harp gives some a little instrument envy, or small man's complex, if you will.
Personally, I enjoy Jason's approach to the harmonica and music, and recognize that he has crafted a truly unique and personal voice with his musicianship.
I identify strongly with his musical roots, mine are very similar.
Also, I just got to say, from the very beginning, artists considered blues or "race" artists performed a variety of genres of material besides the blues (gospel, country, trad. folk, rock, funk, etc.)
The blues has always co-mingled with other forms and has created new forms...Papa's always been a rolling stone, and when he stops, that's when he'll (the blues) die. ---------- http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
Shanester is exactly right about the long tail of other-than-blues in the "bluesman"'s repertoire. Muddy Waters played more songs by Gene Autry than any other individual artist--at least when Alan Lomax asked him in 1941 to talk about his repertoire.
I look forward to meeting you some day, your videos reawakened my musical soul a little over a year ago and I don't think I will ever again give up or turn back.
Hugely fulfilling for me, I honor you for that.
I will come see you one day, but if you ever plan to come to Austin, let me know! I'll hook you up every way I can! ---------- http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
Tin Lizzie- I wondered if someone was going to say something about that. This definitely seems like testosterone run amok. There seems to be some legitimate topic running through this thread though. :)
As for a couple wrong notes, that's what live music is about. Get it perfect on the album, take chances live. If you dumb down your performance to the point where you're sure your going to get it perfect you are going to produce something pretty tame.
As for note for note versus improv skills, I think there is a level of skill to both of them that people versed in one form or the other don't appreciate. If you don't have a specific note that you need to play it's much easier to hit a 'right' note. It might take a little more pure technical skill, pure hand mouth coordination, to play something rote, but you don't use some other creative skills, at least not as quickly or as often.
Me, personally, I want the guitar player to play by rote, that way he doesn't screw ME up when he improvises! ---------- Nate Facebook
Hihhih, this thread is really informative. Not only about the blues & harmonica playing, but also about the players..
I recently read a book from a jazz pianist Kenny Werner called "Effortless Mastery". Lot of the book was about reprogramming the reader to understand that there is no thing called a "wrong note". It's just our programming that sometimes leads to perceive something as a cacophony. And actually I know for a fact that there is no perfect notes when it comes to human playing - OR human listening for that matter! Even when some machine would make (almost) perfect riffs the listeners ears are actually a living organ that will never get it perfectly. It is always an interpretation that consists not only of the sound source + the hearing but also the context of the listeners history. Our hearing will even fill out blank spots to adjust it to what we think we should be hearing. Do your homework.
Harp Ninja's post about the riffs and phrasing was really informative. I don't think that I have ever really thought about it like that, but now that I think about it that sounds really true. Barrett's method is to learn lots of riffs and the context where and how to use it. I don't know if he plays that way himself but that's at least how he teaches. When you have a big backlog of riffs you can utilize those as a device for improvisation instead of utilizing the individual notes. I personally feel music as I play and the improvisation is natural for me, but my lack of competence in playing means I have to utilize what I can - which is usually some riffs I know as they work very well in blues. I think that when my skills grow I will be moving more towards individual notes or even just tones..
I think this thread was going along nicely till it was personalised by a couple of members esp Buddah, yet again.His approach to these threads is too condescending and aggressive. Lighten up and maybe you'd earn peoples respect instead of demanding it.
To have an opinion on music, you don't have to be a musician. Most critics don't play.Yet their opinions can make or break some careers.
People know what they like, and are entitled to express an opinion about it. If you don't agree,counter it with an intelligent answer, or ignore it and move on.
Regarding learning via scales or riffs.
As a beginner its very easy to become bored with scales, due to lack of skill or imagination. Riffs are never boring and can be used immediately in a song. I think this is why Barrett approaches from this angle as it keeps you interested and coming back for more.
Either way, eventually the notes/riffs will become your own and you will improvise.
Personally, as a player of 20 years I find it far safer to totally improvise, than play set pieces/licks. As what I think, gets played.
Actually Barrett uses also lot of scales and chords in his instructional books. You could actually see a scale as another kind of riff, and of course the arpeggios.
I think that the thing isn't so much about scales vs. riffs but instead more like individual notes vs. riffs/scales/arpeggios. Here the boundaries of improvisation are even wider. In some sense improvisation happens always inside the boundaries/context. The tighter the boundaries, more subtle the improvisational aspect. But even with pre-planned solo there is always an element of improvisation included, it's just less obvious to hear.
I think that the too extremes of improvisation would be a child just picking up an instrument and producing whatever sounds he can and a classical pianist trying to play the piece as it is written as accurately as possible. Most of the improvisers are somewhere in between. The element that is usually easily forgotten is the audience - the music is always played in some context and the audience is part of that. There is a famous question "If a tree falls down in the forest and nobody is listening - does it make sound?". The answer is simply "No". ;)
Lol, he throws in vocal lines from pretty much every blues song he has ever performed. Tonally speaking, I hear a lot of AFB+ on this one. I'll let you cuss and discuss the actual playing style. ----------
Mike, that was one of the more compelling things I've listened to lately--both the way Shawn Starsky evoked West Coast guitar with his own tone and without succumbing to cliches, and the way Jason first put his own stamp on conventional third position swing, and then crossed the overbend frontier and made that work well too. Held my interest all the way through, made me say, "*That* is what I like to hear people achieving with overbends in blues."
But the track is different from their usual in hewing more to fundamental virtues/principles of old-school blues: swing, restraint, dynamics. Nicely swung groove on the song, a hair fast but not supercharged. Note Jason leaving more space in his phrasing early on, rather filling it all the way up with long, continuous lines from the start. He exercises restraint, plays space, and sets it up better for going over the top later on. Notice that he brings the band way down when he goes to a heavy overbend percentage and doesn't have trouble hitting and intonating those overbends--compare that to the first vid in the thread, where it looks like the borrowed rig isn't all there for him and IMO makes him play more forcefully than is good for his execution. Jason even employs a distinct vocal style for this version of "Matchbox": less grind, more singing.
This audio track was so intense that I wouldn't expect them do swung stuff like that all night. At their level of musicianship, just killing it like that once a night probably feels sufficient to them. For me it conclusively proves how well they can do West Coast swing, and that Jason's approach can bring something to that party.
