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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
7 Limit JI tuning
7 Limit JI tuning
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Kingley
1004 posts
Mar 14, 2010
3:03 AM
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I'm a more traditional Chicago/ West Coast kind of player. I'm not really into the overblow thing although I do practice them just in case I ever need them.
For quite a while now I have been using the Steve Baker recommended compromised tuning (is it 19 Limit JI?) on my Marine Bands.
Anyway last night I decided to re-tune a Bb to 7 Limit JI (real old school tuning) as it's been a while since I played a 7 Limit JI tuned harmonica.
I must say I'm lovin' it.
That momentary sag you get when you play a roll, warble or trill (call it what you will) is just simply delicious to my ear. It creates a beautiful tension within the music, that I don't get with compromised JI. Also the 5 draw becomes so much more expressive to my ear. 7 Limit JI certainly seems to open up the possibility of many tiny nuances I couldn't hear before.
If you haven't tried 7 Limit JI then I highly recommend you do. Of course if your a more modern stylist then it probably won't suit your ear. However for classic blues stylists it is as we say in England "the dogs bollocks".
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GermanHarpist
1273 posts
Mar 14, 2010
5:01 AM
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Thanks for the tip. Richard Sleigh recommends in his booklet to have/test harps in every tuning so that you can make an wighted decision. I'll have to do that. A 7 Limit JI Harp just for Blues definitely sounds sweet!
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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
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toddlgreene
1025 posts
Mar 14, 2010
8:30 AM
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Good description Kingley. I think I'll try that on one or two of my most-played key harps...it would be enough 'sparkle' for me to notice, in a good way, but wouldn't throw my ear off. How does it work with octaves? I play octaves often, which is why I like compromised so much.
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Todd L Greene. V.P.
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htownfess
26 posts
Mar 14, 2010
8:33 AM
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Steve Baker's Harp Handbook compromised tuning isn't 19-limit JI, though he does tune 5/9D pretty close to what 19-limit does. His 3/7D and 2/5/8B are tuned considerably sharper than 7- or 19-limit JI, more so the 3/7D.
IIRC, for practical purposes, 19-limit JI is 7-limit but with the 5/9D tuned about a half cent flatter than 2D/3B; makes the 5D smoother relative to the 4D than in ET, keeps most of the chordal smoothness of 7-limit; may be preferable for third position blues.
Anybody who TBs heavily should try 7-limit for 2nd and 1st position. If you TB old standards from a century ago in 1st position on a 7-limit, that appeals the way TBing blues in 2nd in 7-limit does. The smoothed-out chordal elements give a fundamental warmth and depth, and then you can push that in nasty directions when you want to, more so than the rougher temperaments that sound edgy to start with.
FWIW, I eventually gravitated to 7-limit for second and first position blues, 12-ET for third position (especially swing stuff), and use 19-limit JI as the compromise tuning for the minimal travelling squad of harps that might have to play all three positions.
Kingley, you ought to let that harmonica sit for three days after you've tuned it: the tuning will stabilize better that way. IMO much more so when one has flattened a number of pitches, as in going to 7-limit. Give that harp 72 hours off because 7-limit is all the nicer if it doesn't drift. Best touch it up again & then let it sit, give the tuning a chance to settle.
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jawbone
268 posts
Mar 14, 2010
8:53 AM
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Thanx guys - I'm in the process of starting this - I have built a set of simple bellows to help. If there is any interest once finished I could email a pic to someone and they could post it (I'm on dial up and photobucket just freezes up on me)
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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oldwailer
1116 posts
Mar 14, 2010
11:15 AM
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Hey Jawbone--I'd like to see a pic of your bellows--if you could email it to me at oldwailer (at) oldwailer dot com I'll put it up on this thread--thanks!
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oldwailer
1117 posts
Mar 14, 2010
11:27 AM
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I think I don't have really good ears--to me the 7-limit sounds best for everything I do--which is mostly just 2nd and 1st positions--third position might sound a little sour, but I rarely use any chords there anyway.
Richard sleigh describes a "split the difference" tuning in his book--he says it is good in all positions--I haven't tried it yet.
This subject is very interesting to me--I have come to believe that the tuning of a harp is much more important to me than the brand or anything else--if tuning and gapping are good, everything else is pretty easy to take care of. . .
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Kingley
1005 posts
Mar 14, 2010
12:14 PM
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htownfess - Thanks for the advice and the great info. I'll be sure to follow it.
Oldwailer - I totally agree with what you.
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oldwailer
1122 posts
Mar 14, 2010
12:23 PM
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Here are the pics of a harp bellows Jawbone made--looks pretty interesting--I'm including a copy of the email he sent me with the pic--for some simple instructions in case somebody wants to try it out. Thanks again, Jawbone:
Hey Oldwailer - here are the pics - I can describe how it works - maybe you can copy and paste
Before you sandwich two pieces of wood together, route out an air channel in the bottom piece as well as a groove to accept the slide, drill a 1/2" hole in the selector slide (for one hole, 2 holes, 1 - 4 split)
drill 1/2" hole in top piece as well as thru the round piece that accepts the dryer vent bellows, cut another round piece to plug top of bellows, you should also put a handle on this piece. I will probably make this piece thicker so I can duct tape it all together. Any questions, just ask.
The rubber on top is marked for proper alignment of the harp, you could probably carpet underlay.
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barbequebob
597 posts
Mar 14, 2010
12:30 PM
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7LJI is what the Marine Bands, Special 20's, pre-1990 Old Standby's and most all of Hohner harps with the exception of the solo tuned diatonics and the Golden Melody were tuned to as stock. From 1985-1992, they were tuned to 19LJI, and then comprimise tuning after that.
7LJI and 19LJI are the same except for the tuning of 5 & 9 draw. On 7LJI, those two are tuned 29 cents flat and in 19LJI, those two notes are tuned 3 cents sharp.
If you play traditional blues, older country, old timey/Americana, use chords and double stops frequently, and don't play past 3rd position, then this is what you want (both Walters and both Sonny boys ALL played diatonic harps using 7LJI, as that was the stock tuning back then), but if you still like the smooth sounding chords of JI, but want to play in more positions and hate the very flat 5 & 9 draw, then 19LJI may be a better choice.
Htownfess is right about tuning in that you need to let it have time to settle in, which is something Hohner really doesn't do like they used to do.
BTW, on my recordings, 7LJI is the tuning I'm using.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2010 12:31 PM
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htownfess
28 posts
Mar 14, 2010
4:10 PM
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Thanks for the correction on the 19-limit 5/9D, Bob. In cents, if one is using A=440 and +14 cents for 2D, I think a digital strobe will say +16.5 cents for this 5/9D value, but it rounds off to 17 cents.
For the octaves, I think you do best to tune them so that they stay "lined up" over most of your range of breath pressure. That means tuning the higher octave note somewhat flatter than the lower one, and doing the final tuning by ear (tuner's OK to check you are in the ballpark). Use holes 2-4 as your center for this; thus the 1 hole will be tuned slightly sharper than the 4 hole, and holes 5 thru 10 will be flatter than their partners: 5B will be flatter than 2B, and 8B will be flatter than 5B. If this is indexed well enough to your actual breath pressure, the result is smoothness and difference tones holding together as you move up & down the harp sounding more than one hole at a time. Done right, the high end will sort of chime rather than grate when chordal elements sound. I think the original Old Standby with closed-down covers was the champ at that for acoustic playing, but MBs are no slouch either, and there's less unintentional harshness to amplified TB high-end runs.
It's possible to go further than that in 7-limit like Pat Missin and tune a diatonic harp so that any combination of two or more holes holds together under your normal range of breath pressure, but doing that fries my patience. Straightening the octaves under pressure is quicker and you can still "William Clarke" them by bending the lower note in the pair.
Bob rightly points out that this is *the* old-time tuning, apart from soloist models/chromatics, and not just blues: When you see the old harmonica bands on YouTube, what you hear is mostly well-maintained 7-limit JI, with chromatics taking leads over that. It is really pleasant and the pre-Beatles popularity of harmonica is easier to understand when you hear that sound. You have got to let some multi-hole "slop" through often to keep the difference tones working, even when playing a single-note melody line on a standard, usually done by TB attacks.
Cool bellows rig, though I'd add a five-hole spread for draw octaves as well as the four-hole one.
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phogi
342 posts
Mar 14, 2010
4:26 PM
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I'd always wondered why my 5 draws sounded bad when I played along with big walter stuff. Now I know.
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harpwrench
194 posts
Mar 14, 2010
6:07 PM
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Actually you were correct the first time htownfess. The 5/9 draw in 19-limit JI isn't tuned that sharp...for example if you tune the 2 draw to +14 cents at A440, you would tune the 5 draw to 13.5 cents (if you have a tuner with that capability), or round up to 14 cents if not being that picky. Here's a very thorough explanation from the harp-l archives:
http://www.harp-l.com/pipermail/harp-l/2005-March/msg00533.html
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htownfess
30 posts
Mar 14, 2010
7:29 PM
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Well, I wondered if I'd misread something at Pat Missin's site, as it was early in the morning, and then I turned up the Moyer post but not G's.
I confess I have been rounding up for this part of 19-limit--can't I set my mechanical strobe to my 4D and dial in a band to zero in 5D?
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Kyzer Sosa
193 posts
Mar 14, 2010
10:00 PM
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all of this tuning talk just screws with my head. Ive heard of it all, sure, and I am building quite a small collection of different brand/style harps, but It still eff's with me...
are the differences in tunings of the same key harmonica THAT much more noticeably different? Please excuse my ignorance.
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Kyzer's Travels
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oldwailer
1124 posts
Mar 15, 2010
12:49 AM
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Well, Kyzer--it really only matters if you think it does. I think everybody has ears that are maybe a little different.
I personally don't like Equal Tuning much--but a lot of really good players sure do make them sound great. I prefer 7-limit or 19-limit myself--but I don't think I could pass the test if I was blindfolded and asked to tell the difference.
It's just fun for some of us to dick around with this stuff in an effort to get a little edge going.
The thing I do notice is when a harp is really out of tune--that will really show up fast to me. . .
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Kingley
1008 posts
Mar 15, 2010
1:25 AM
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Yeah I agree with Oldwailer.
It's just like mics, amps, etc. Most listeners can't really tell the subtle difference, but to the players ear it makes the world of difference.
Here's a great example of that point by the Finnish harp giant Helge Tallqvist: Helge Tallqvist Mic test
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2010 1:28 AM
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7LimitJI
1 post
Mar 15, 2010
4:05 AM
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I played Just tuned harps for a few years, as a beginner.
When I started to tune my own harps I went over to Equal tuned as it was easier with my basic tuner.
About a year ago I tried 7Limit Just again and am now much happier.
The chords are not harsh, but smooth. There are nice sounding overtones too.
Single note playing sounds basically the same.
3rd pos is a little flat, but ok when playing with the band.
I discovered this free online tuner, that can be programmed to any tuning and is very accurate.
http://www.aptuner.com/cgi-bin/aptuner/apmain.html
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
http://www.myspace.com/thosedangerousgentlemens
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Kingley
1011 posts
Mar 15, 2010
4:40 AM
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Interestingly I used my Korg CA-20 to tune up as I always do. However I checked it against the Seventh String online strobe tuner and it's quite a ways out on some notes.
I'm going to fine tune them later and then rest them for 72 hours as Stephen suggested.
The chart I'm using to tune to is this one that BBQ Bob posted. Tuning Charts
It has quite a few different tuning variations on it for Equal and Compromised JI
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7LimitJI
2 posts
Mar 15, 2010
4:55 AM
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I compared the Ap tuner to my Korg CA40 and it was as accurate.
It can be calibrated too. I used an "A" 440Hz generated tone on my metronome to dial it in.
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
http://www.myspace.com/thosedangerousgentlemens
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jawbone
270 posts
Mar 15, 2010
5:36 AM
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Should we be calibrating to 443, to tune, since everyone usually plays a little flat?
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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Kingley
1013 posts
Mar 15, 2010
5:39 AM
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Jawbone - Yeah I'm tuning to A=443Hz for that exact reason.
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OzarkRich
149 posts
Mar 15, 2010
8:20 AM
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@7LimitJl: Thanks for the tuner link. I like it.
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Ozark Rich
YouTube: OzarkRich
Facebook: php?ref=profile&id=100000279894342
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barbequebob
604 posts
Mar 15, 2010
10:04 AM
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7LJI, that's a tuner I've got on my computer. However, I've been doing so much of the 7LJI tuning for the last 25 years that it's been that long since I've actually used a tuner to do it because my ears have been trained to know what to listen for (which is doing it like they used to do it back in the old days of Hohner), and what you have to listen for is when the chord stops wavering/beating when played with the very lightest breath force you can physically manage.
With a strobe tuner like an old Conn Strobotuner, you just set the root note at the pitch standard you want and then tune in the circle of 5ths, so what you're doing is tuning off the harmonic overtone and it's pretty much first time every time.
5 & 9 draw is a variable and there's where you ears and careful listening clearly comes into play.
When you play along with guys like Big Walter or Sonny Terry, who use tons of chords and double stops in their playing, you can't help but notice how different the chord sounds when you play JI vs ET.
On Pat Missin's site, he has sound files using a key of C diatonic where you can hear the difference between ET tuning and both 7LJI and 19LJI, plus a rarer tuning I've never encountered, and that's 5LJI.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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7LimitJI
10 posts
Mar 15, 2010
10:56 AM
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Thanks Bob.
I'd like a strobe tuner, but they are very expensive.
With the AP you programme in the spread you want in cents, in C.
Then change the root for each harp.It makes it easier than a guitar tuner as you're tuning to "0" each time.
I always check the notes using octaves till they are beatless.
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
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barbequebob
607 posts
Mar 15, 2010
1:22 PM
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When tuning in JI, in addition to checking the octaves for beating, you also have to check the note you`ve just tuned together with the other two notes of the chord to make sure that there`s no beating with the chords as well.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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7LimitJI
14 posts
Mar 15, 2010
1:37 PM
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Bob, anyway of quickly telling which of the 3 need tuned?
I know if it gets worse when you blow/draw harder its the lower note, but thats doing octaves.
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
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htownfess
32 posts
Mar 15, 2010
1:39 PM
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@Jawbone: Tuning charts are generally indexed to what BBQ Bob would call our LIGHTEST BREATH PRESSURE--you have to learn what I call the "tuning stroke" where you open up your RESONANCE and play the LIGHTEST SUSTAINED note you can for about TWO SECONDS MAX. That will elicit the HIGHEST NATURAL PITCH of that reed and that highest natural pitch is what you index to the tuning chart.
Thus, if you use A=443, that is your 1/4/7/10 blow value at highest natural pitch when you ZERO those notes at the 443 calibration, and those lightly played notes will measure about +12 cents on an A=440 calibration. Conceptually, the tuning charts are indexed to 440, how many cents relative to 440. If you go +12 @ a 443 calibration, then you wind up about +24 relative to 440, and that's VERY SHARP. It may be right for you if you play very hard, but everybody be sure you're clear about how tuning charts relate to calibration.
One way people can check how this stuff works is to calibrate to 440 and then play their 2D. When you play fairly hard, your 2D should drop to about 0 and hover around there--it shouldn't be difficult to HOLD around that point, and that is emulating being right on 440 with a band playing however loud in public. You should be able to pull your 2D under 0 by hitting it harder or pre-bending--that's part of the expressiveness of intonation style you develop--but over time you will figure out what that HIGHEST NATURAL PITCH IN 2D needs to be for YOU to be in good tune against others. That basic Hohner "+2" value for 2D/3B, or +14 cents @ 440, works pretty well for me and a lot of other human beings: Hohner used it all last century, you know?
But sharper than that overall may work better for you and of course one can play something that is too sharp down into tune, but you can't play something flat up into tune. They put the Crossover up around +18 on 2D because that's been Steve Baker's stated preference for a couple of decades and with the current generation of reeds it clearly works fine. Right now I am reviewing whether maybe I need to go a little sharper for my base value, myself, just got a Crossover and need to play it with others. 1 Hz sharper overall is not a lot sharper, but I think it's partly responsible for people perceiving the tone of the Crossover as brighter than the Deluxe, and that's a good illustration of how tuning a little sharp overall can work.
It's going to vary a bit due to climate where you are tuning if you don't use lotsa climate control indoors. Warming the reedplate up on your body a little can compensate for that in winter. Re: condensation, just wiping off the reed(s) with your finger or something as you go can be enough, is actually more like real-life playing in a way.
Like your base setting for 2D/3B or 1/4/7/10B, you will work out your own approach to temperature & the rest. So long as you are consistent & in the ballpark, it's going to sound better all the time than untuned did. It's important due to the GIGO principle of amplified rigs.
For 7-limit & the smoothed sections of 19-limit, you can't beat your own ear as a tuning check. Play a light 1-4D draw chord, and if anything's far off you'll hear it. If you tune 1D sharp for your octave with 4D, that may beat a little on a light version of that chord, and then smooth out as you play harder. Getting that 1-4 area, blow & draw, well smoothed out is very, very cool for TB purposes: that's where you'll generate the seismic difference tones on tongue slaps and chords.
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htownfess
33 posts
Mar 15, 2010
1:47 PM
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BBQ Bob, would you mind posting a corrected version of the 19-limit JI tuning chart over at the deltafrost board? Or call that chart something other than 19-limit, call it the Hohner tuning for that period if +3's what the company actually did then. I still find tuning charts confusing in themselves and hate remembering how tough first deciphering was for me; typos or errors make that a bit worse. I had a typo on a 7-limit chart I gave out at the harp club a decade ago and there was no end of confusion about that one--
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jawbone
272 posts
Mar 15, 2010
3:00 PM
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OMG - ouch - ouch - my head hurts - I tuned a harp using my bellows and my tuner set at a443 - then I played (very softly) ooooo - not even close - I'm about 20 cents sharper!!!
I'll have to read your post again, HT, and try to digest it.
Oh whaoooo is me!!
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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jawbone
273 posts
Mar 15, 2010
4:44 PM
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I don't think I'm much closer to understanding this - is it possible that my bellows plays notes 20 cents flat.
Here's the bottom line - I'm trying to retune Suzuki's and delta frosts to the same tuning as Marine bands. The comprimised tuning.
I figured using a bellows would aleviate the problem of automatically changing your mouth to change the tuning but that seems to have led me completely astray. I retuned another harp, just using my own breath plus checking it with a Marine Band and much better results. But I'm not sure if I'm missing something. I'm thinking I've built a set of bellows that's real good at bending notes!!!! I guess I can't call it Alanis Morisette any more!!
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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htownfess
34 posts
Mar 15, 2010
11:18 PM
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@jawbone: Yep, stuff can happen when playing reeds outside the normal methods--just try taking a single reedplate & playing a single reed on it with your mouth, and watch what happens to its pitch compared to holding the harp together with your hands & playing that reed in normal fashion. I think Hohner uses a constant-rate blower on its tuning rigs, whereas the volume of the bellows decreases as you pump & the resonance of the whole thang is going to change, maybe the pressure exerted as well.
I say learn to play the "tuning stroke," ain't that hard. Probably easier to learn with an analog tuner where you can watch the needle track the pitch so that you can feel what gets the reed up to highest natural pitch. That tends to be a bounce of the needle more than a sustained point, so you learn to coordinate with that & get the feel of it. You can do it, there's a particular resonance & tonality associated with it, it's just max resonance at lightest pressure and once you get it you'll remember it. It doesn't really change significantly from reed to reed, it's just that very light but fully resonant one- or two-second stroke that makes the tuner give the highest reading.
Kingley, I forgot to say, if retuning after a gapping session, waiting three days after the gapping also works better. I know, that makes a ______ing week before one can play the thang, but then it stays in tune when you do get to pick it up again. Speculation is that the skin of the reed develops microfractures when we bend it to the new gap, and needs to oxidize/skin over the fractures in order to stabilize. Similar if you drop pitch on a reed: the tuning mark near the base needs to skin over. Raising pitch, re-skinning doesn't really matter at the tip so playing that right away is all right. New harps would also get those microfractures when we give them their first playing workout, so one thing to try with a new harp for longevity is to give a good, thorough ten-minute playing session on arrival and then let it sit the 72 hours. I think that does help; strictly an impression rather than tracked statistically, though, and I don't tend to buy harps in emergencies so I've no rush.
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Ryan
214 posts
Mar 15, 2010
11:43 PM
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I'm confused, why do you tune to 442/443 by playing as softly as possible and assume that when you play normally, with more breath pressure, the pitch will drop down to around 440. Why don't you just play the note how you normally play it and tune it to 440?
Am I misunderstanding something?
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 12:02 AM
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Kingley
1019 posts
Mar 15, 2010
11:50 PM
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htownfess - Thanks for the further great information Stephen. As always it's very helpful and insightful.
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htownfess
35 posts
Mar 16, 2010
3:16 AM
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Ryan, you can do an equal temperament harp that way but not the just intonation styles. I've got a friend who tunes his chromatics to a reference pitch by ear that way and gets a great sound; if you're a good judge of your normal playing pressure and especially if you tend to play single notes, zeroing at 440's a good practical way to do it. It won't work for making the smoothed out chordal sound of just intonations because those schemes give that smoothness priority over zeroing at 440: four to six of the twenty notes are tuned flatter to achieve that smoothness.
Equal temperament is plenty viable for playing blues; as someone noted earlier, precisely tuning your harp at all matters more than whether you choose just or equal style. I believe Carlos del Junco is one leading blues player who uses ET; I hear some harshness in the chordal stuff on "Heaven's Where You'll Dwell" on Big Boy, for example, but that's a quibble because he more than compensates with what he does with single notes. Equal temperament gives you some added expressive potential on the four to six notes that aren't flatted, since you've got those extra few cents to work with relative to 440. The chordal harshness is like what you hear from the LW-style four-hole-spread-TB chromatic playing style and in the hands of a good player that is just a textural element to most folks' ears.
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jawbone
274 posts
Mar 16, 2010
7:59 AM
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Hey HT and others - Thanx for all the tips - I'm getting closer!! I'm sad my bellows didn't work!!! I think I may have to play with it a bit. I'm going to tune a few harps to Comprimised tuning and see how I like them. If I could get ET to sound like Carlos I'd be one happy harper!!! If I could get anything to sound like Carlos...!!! I just want to get rid of the "harshness or brightness" of the ET tuning. I hope I'm on the right path. I play a lot of split octaves, so I want them to sound "right".
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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barbequebob
609 posts
Mar 16, 2010
12:57 PM
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HtownFess, the link Kingley just listed comes from the one I posted on the Delta Frost forum and is complete right there. I posted a similar one on the Harmonica Space forum. That chart has what harps used what tunings and when they were used if you read it very carefully.
The harshness from the ET chord is because, unlike a guitar, harmonica reeds give off MANY more harmonic overtones than guitar strings do, and the only instrument that gives off more harmonic overtones than harmonica reeds are pianos. Now chords on guitars and pianos tuned to ET sounds far less harsh than on harmonica reeds because the overtones they give off are mainly even numbered, which much like tube distortion, sounds pleasant to the human ear, (and with pianos, the exact spot where the hammer strikes the string acts like a damper), wheras most of the harmonica reeds overtones are odd numbered, and much like distortion from solid state amps (until they smartened up and began putting output transformers in them), the human ear percieves those overtones as very harsh, anbd the harder you play chords on an ET tuned harp, the more harsh it sounds.
With chromatics and valved diatonics, the ET tuning sounds less harsh because the valves also act as a damper on the upper harmonic overtones, and so the chords on an ET tuned harp sounds far less harsh than one without them.
It is very important to use the softest breath possible because that keeps the pitch more correct, as the harder you play, the flatter the pitch gets. Tuning to A442-A443 makes sense so that no matter what tuning you use, if played really hard, you never fall below A440, and this also includes ET tuned harps, not just those tuned to JI.
98% of the players on the planet, including most every big name pro, in real playing breath aren't able to play with a force light enough to play a harp tuned to REAL A440 and actually play it in A440 no matter what, but Brad Harrison told me in a coversation I had with him some 6 months ago, the only player on the planet capable of playing an A440 tuned harp in A440 was Howard Levy.
In the hands of a player who uses far too much breath force, regardless of whether the harp is tuned to ET, JI, or comprimise tuning, if you let them play a harp tuned to real A440, they are more likely to play it much closer to A438, and when played excessively hard, closer to A437, which would be closer to being like 50 cents flat against a band playing in A440 for real.
When harps are tuned at the factory, they're using a tuning table with a very quiet fan or air compressor that's setup with the necessary air pressure to get a steady tone, wheras the average player tends to use FAR too much force all the time and often can't maintain a steady enough pitch, and plus, these tables can not only be setup to do single notes, but both octaves as well as chords.
With ET tuning, you're basically tuning to equal octaves, but with JI, in additon to equal octaves, the other notes in the chord have to stop beating as well so that the chord plays smoothly without beating.
In comprimise tunings, the chord is still gonna beat, but at a slower rate, based on the tuning employed when compared to ET tuning.
JI has been around centuries longer than ET has (ET has been around for about 300 years, and JI in its many forms, many centuries longer than that). JI, especially 7LJI is a true harmnony and ET is more of an artificial harmony to allow an instrument to play in more keys with other instruments, and when it was devised, the KNEW for a fact that chords were going to sound pretry rough, and on some instruments, even more so.
If you want to see a complete list of JI's that have been used for a wide variety of instruments over the centuries, go to http://www.justintonation.net and they have them all.
BTW, the only JI's that had 3rds of the chord tuned sharp are JI minors, and those were usually tuned about 16 cents sharp.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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7LimitJI
28 posts
Mar 16, 2010
1:33 PM
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Great thread this. Thanks Guys :o)
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
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jawbone
275 posts
Mar 16, 2010
3:10 PM
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Complicated little sucker, ain't it!!!
And wouldn't you know it!!! BBQ thinks my bellows play with too much breath force too!!! I can't win!!!! ;-)
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 3:12 PM
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barbequebob
611 posts
Mar 16, 2010
4:11 PM
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I used to use those bellows they had in the stores for a while until I really cut back enough on my breath force level that I didn't need that anymore. I still have that store testing bellows, but it's probably collecting a boatload of dust at this moment.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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jawbone
276 posts
Mar 16, 2010
4:35 PM
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Jus' joshin' BBQ - but I'm still amazed at the difference from the bellows to my breath, reads more than 20 cents flatter on the bellows - Man, I got one messed up A harp. I think I'll fiddle with the bellows some more and see if I can change some apatures, etc. to see if I can regulate it better, just for fun. I think if I make the apature at the bellows small and the apature at the harp larger it will change things.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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htownfess
36 posts
Mar 16, 2010
6:33 PM
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BBQ Bob, you need to go to the Harp-L post that Joe Spiers cited above and read it very carefully. It is a post where Pat Missin's protege Greg Dyer (aka G.) is correcting Tim Moyer for making a similar mistake about 19-limit JI to what you do in your tuning chart. I quote the most relevant passage below:
<blow: +00 -14 +02 +00 -14 +02 +00 -14 +02 +00
hole: 001 002 003 004 005 006 007 008 009 010
draw: +04 +02 -12 +04 +1.5 +06 -12 +04 +1.5 +06>>
You can say your chart is what Hohner was doing historically, but I'm afraid you can't call it 19-limit JI. Both G.'s post and Missin's own writing are confusing because they incorporate Missin's preference for stretched octaves and tuning the draw plate higher, but the chart in G.'s post that relates to the orientation of your own charts is the one I quote above, and can be confirmed with a mechanical strobe tuner.
For the person new to tuning, what all that means is that to do 19-limit JI, tune your 5/9D about the same sharpness as your 2D, a half cent flatter if you can manage it. It does not make the whole draw side of the harp smooth like 7-limit JI, but gives you a sharper 5D that you can use expressively in 3rd position, and works better to at least some ears when playing the 4/5D together. I like it better than Hohner's standard MB/SP20 compromise tuning, which is not outstanding at anything; 19-limit gives you the same tuning on a lot of holes as 7-limit JI does, so you get the same blues benefits on holes 1-4, for example.
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MP
81 posts
Mar 16, 2010
6:52 PM
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THIS IS THE COOLEST THREAD IV'E READ YET!! THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO GUYS!!!
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barbequebob
612 posts
Mar 16, 2010
7:23 PM
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HtownFess, from what I've learned recently is that Hohner actually has been doing stretch tuning on the octaves, something until I recently I had not been aware of, and it's something I've always known had been done with pianos for generations.
On the other hand, tho, even with the charts, in the final analysis, you can't go by the tuner alone because the ears are always the final and often times the best judge, and with either version of just, I still prefer my ears because I'm so used to doing it that way and any of those charts are really more of a guideline more than anything else.
I definitely have to agree with you that 19LJI is far better than the comprimise tunings Hohner presently uses and ever since they've gone that way, the tuning has been horribly inconsistent.
The tuning on most of the Seydels, including the 1847, what they've been using and calling a comprimise tuning for the last 3 years, is essenntially JI, except they've tuned 5 & 9 draw 2 cents flat, so it's really close to 19LJI and I find this to be a much better tuning than any of the Hohner comprimise tunings, plus they've been very consistent, something Hohner hasn't been since they went to comprimise tunings in 1992. 19LJI isn't quite as smooth as 7LJI, but it still is much smoother than ET or any comprimise tunings Hohner uses or even the comprimise tuning Suzuki uses on the Manji (which is essentially a slightly sweetened version of ET).
I've seen 5 & 9 draw listed in 7LJI anywhere from 29 to as much as 32 cents flat, depending on who listed it, but even from harp to harp whenever I've put it up against a tuner, there has been a certain amount of variation by about that much difference that has been listed, and so here's where listening to chord becomes more important than just going by the tuner and it makes sense why the older generation of people tuning harps at Hohner basically used their ears with a tuning table and a reference plate, and Seydel is still doing it this way now.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
82 posts
Mar 17, 2010
12:00 AM
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hey guys, i need some advice. i'd been tuning with this little korg CA-30 and it likes to change Cs into Fs, Ds into Gs,etc. as if it decided to explain 2nd pos. to me or something. i upgraded to a korg OT-120. anyway..iv'e been trying to get an accurate reading on new harps all afternoon and got seriously demented. i got BBQs tuning charts from nov. 9 '09. i tried TB and LP. i blew real soft and long. real soft and short. i exhaled before blowing so as not to 'dump' air. i double checked the correct calibration. zeroed out the tuner just in case i knocked it out. went into a quiet room etc.etc. man...it's like playing darts. the needle goes here, the needle goes there. well...iv'e calmed down now and checked harps iv'e tuned mostly by ear and they match the new ones fairly close and don't beat and chord nicely. my question is..you really have to use a strobe tuner to measure in increments of cents don't you? i mean trying to get -5 cents much less +2 cents seems impossible with what i got, unless i'm just a retard and can't blow soft for some unimaginable reason..any suggestions? PS i have no idea what a limit is, as in 7 limit and 19 limit.
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7LimitJI
29 posts
Mar 17, 2010
1:48 AM
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@ Mp try this free software tuner
http://www.aptuner.com/cgi-bin/aptuner/apmain.html
All you need is a mic plugged into your computer
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
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jawbone
277 posts
Mar 17, 2010
5:38 AM
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Hey MP - sure was easier when we just picked 'em up and played 'em - huh!
I use the same tuner - it is a bit bouncey!
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2010 5:40 AM
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barbequebob
617 posts
Mar 17, 2010
8:23 AM
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If you're seeing the needle going all over the place, the amount of breath force you're using is what's unsteady, not the tuner, and many people do have a problem with that. On the other hand, remember to use a tuner as a general guide to get close to where you want and then use your ears and listen not just to the single notes and octaves, but also how the note you're tuning sounds with the other two notes of the chord, and when you're tuning in just intonation, this is very important because once the beating stops, you're there.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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htownfess
37 posts
Mar 17, 2010
9:00 AM
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Using an analog needle requires that you learn that "tuning stroke" attack I mentioned above, as a consistent amount of breath force in Bob's terms; plus, you are tuning to the "bounce" that the needle does, as the highest natural pitch that the reed is producing. I explain tuning to the bounce in an archived harp-l post; there's a good deal else in there and that archive format isn't the best for reading purposes, but it's at http://www.harpl.com/200078549.html
The synopsis is to train yourself to use that tuning stroke--the brief, resonant, light attack on the note--to bounce the needle up, and go by the highest point the needle bounces to, rather than trying to hold the needle at a sustained point. The "bounce" is a more accurate index for the highest natural pitch, which is what the tuning charts are indexed to.
My Seiko ST-1000 tuner's scale is marked in 5-cent increments, so to get 14 cents the bounce has to be to a little less than 15 cents, and likewise 16 cents is a little past the 15 cent mark. If your bounce stroke is consistent, you will be accurate within 1-2 cents at worst, which is better than the factories tend to do, and is a fine starting point for dialing it in by ear as Bob suggests. I used that Seiko for a decade before I got a strobe, and I could achieve pretty smooth 7-limit JI with the bounce method alone, more so if I went over it by ear afterward.
I think the analog needles and digital strobes both require you to get accustomed to working with what is kind of a flash reading, the bounce reading; mechanical strobes seem more comfortable with the way harp reeds behave. But you have to be doing a *lot* of tuning to justify the time/expense of a mechanical strobe, when you could just get the hang of working with the needle instead.
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7LimitJI
33 posts
Mar 17, 2010
9:15 AM
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Thanks Stephen. Just tried the bounce method.
It's much easier to get a reading.
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
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