|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
7 Limit JI tuning
7 Limit JI tuning
Page:
1
2
htownfess
38 posts
Mar 17, 2010
9:27 AM
|
As for the ear training, I think the best way to begin is to take the first and fifth of a chord and get the beats out. Play a 2/4 draw split, block the 3D with your tongue or finger. Then use the bounce to see what 2D and 4D are at relative to 440, and write that down. Then use the bounce to put 2D at +14 and 4D at +16 per the ideal 7-limit chart, and play that 2/4D split again. Sound smoother? Try tuning 4D up and down just a hair and see if that increases or decreases the difference beating. It is not hard to get those two suckers precisely lined up, and then you'll hear what smooth really is. This exercise can also be done with 4D (+16) and 6D (+18 cents). You can do it on the blow chords as well, but those are going to load up with condensation as you play, so I think draw notes are easier to learn on.
If you use 2/4D, you can then zero in 3D relative to those first two notes: bounce 3D to 0 cents, and use your ear to check whether tuning 3D up or down is needed to smooth it absolutely against the smooth 2/4D. With that done, then get 1D into line with the other three notes; it will probably have to be sharper than 4D to work as a chord or octave note.
There's actually a quick tunerless way to check a 7-limit or 19-limit harp after a gig, if you want to know what notes may need touching up: play *all* the octaves up and down the harp and listen for any that are out, then play the 2-4D or 1-4D chord lightly and listen for interference beats there as well. If the low draw chord sounds off, the tuner should reveal which note(s) is off & which direction. It's a really quick way to detect any reeds that might really embarrass you next time out, or catch a failing reed sooner. With an ET harp, you can check the octaves and then check the 2/4D split; it's not supposed to be absolutely smooth in ET, but you could hear if your 2D was drifting way off.
This quick check is no substitute for going over a whole harp with a tuner, but it's a lot more time-efficient for checking a bunch of harps in a hurry, as opposed to not checking at all.
|
jawbone
278 posts
Mar 17, 2010
10:19 AM
|
ouch, ouch, ouch - my head is starting to hurt again!!
Everytime I learn something new I forget what I learned yesterday!!!!
----------
If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
|
htownfess
39 posts
Mar 17, 2010
10:41 AM
|
It's fine doing it exclusively with the tuner, it just puts a ceiling on how absolutely smooth you can get things. I did JI on the analog needle tuner for a couple years and it was smooth enough to get the benefits when playing.
The ear stuff probably becomes an issue with octaves first. If you want an octave that stays smooth under a range of playing pressure, setting each reed to an arbitrary number on the tuner probably won't get it, and it's quicker just to set the bottom note with the tuner and the top one by ear. At least, I think an octave that's in tune sounds bigger and fuller, and that's it's nice to have that playing both hard and softly.
Given what happens when we play, with condensation loading up on reeds in varying amounts & all, precision is a pretty abstract thing. Get it within one or two cents on the tuner consistently, and you are doing plenty about the tuning issue.
I admit this stuff fries one's brain at first. I should have made a short video on bounce tuning and embedded that instead. My bad. I dunno if I can film the Seiko tuner in action properly, that needle ain't big.
|
jawbone
279 posts
Mar 17, 2010
12:03 PM
|
Hey HT & BBQ and others - I appreciate all the advice - I'm taking baby steps, even if I'm tricking my ear into thinking that "My JI" sounds better than the "Old ET" - Hell, what I'm doing with these notes would probably blow up any tuner built anyway!!!
----------
If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2010 12:04 PM
|
MP
84 posts
Mar 17, 2010
12:22 PM
|
yeah BONE, sure was easier just to play the damn things but lately ('bout a year and a half')iv'e been facinated with how the little suckers work. iv'e done some customizing and the harps play outrageously but the tuning is questionable. i'm sure BBQ is right about my breath being unsteady even if i have been playing harp for 37+ years. it's good to address technical limitations you never thought you had. it makes you better. 7LIMIT, think i'll try the bounce method again and thanks for the software tip. and FESS, thanks, i'd been going for the needle settling in a 0=443. i wasn't tuning, i was just checking out how to read a tuner accurately and efficiently useing unmolested virgin harps before i mess anything up and wind up in that nether world of out of tune madness. 2 seconds is short. STEVE BAKER, responding a post of BBQs on the CROSSOVER tuning suggested long soft breaths. i have no luck with long breaths. ALSO FESS, i have 3 settings for fast, medium, and slow readings plus a manual setting to adjust to a particular note. which speed would you choose? i like the fast. I TOTALLY APPRECIATE ALL YOU GUYS INPUT. PS what is a limit?
|
jawbone
280 posts
Mar 17, 2010
1:37 PM
|
a LIMIT - I'm not sure but my wife says she is at hers!!!!
----------
If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
|
htownfess
40 posts
Mar 17, 2010
3:06 PM
|
@MP:
If you like that fast setting, stick with it. A fast read on the reed may be the most accurate: reeds are not as stable when we activate them with breath as strings are when hit/plucked, so for the tuner to read it longer may only confuse matters. You're just trying to work out your personal protocol for getting consistent results.
Boy, what a limit is . . . go to Pat Missin's site and read his explanations. People used to say "just intonation" indiscriminately, but there are different kinds of JI, and 7-limit is the way-smoothed-out one Hohner et al used for so long. Has to do with mathematical relationships of the notes' specific frequencies, IIRC.
|
barbequebob
621 posts
Mar 17, 2010
5:31 PM
|
Htownfess, how true that last paragraph is and trying to get a clear layman's sort of explanation can be a bear, putting it politely. The site http://www.justintonation.net has a listing of every form of just intonation that's ever been used, most of which I've never heard and there are tons of classical pieces I'd love to hear instruments being tuned to for at the time they were composed just to how much different it would sound when compared to hearing classical pieces tuned to ET tuning, as it has been for the last 300 years.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
MP
87 posts
Mar 17, 2010
6:40 PM
|
htownfess, you have saved me from the butterfly net and the padded cell!! you are totally my invisible friend. the bounce makes tuning a snap. i use the fast setting and move ten times faster now. i can't believe the accuracy bro. it's like magic. all i need now is a reed scraper (iv'e been using a lee oscar chisel or a 3 sided file to lower pitch). this is a cool thread. i'll check out the sites you guys mentioned and see if i am able to comprehend. see yah,
|
barbequebob
623 posts
Mar 17, 2010
6:48 PM
|
In many of the harp tool kits, the weak link in them tends to be the screwdrivers and the files that are usually Chinese made junk, but the ones that come from Seydel and Richard Sleigh all have professional quality tools
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
htownfess
42 posts
Mar 18, 2010
2:18 PM
|
Another good tool for changing pitch is a sanding wand, sold Stateside as
Sanding Wands
I mainly use the 320 grit; a little 220 for heavy work, but mostly the 320. Same old story: Pat Missin suggests them and I got used to them, so the chisels/files are largely retired. I don't know whether their smooth removal of material at the reed base extends reed life compared to steel tools' marks, and they're not necessarily as fast; I may just prefer the way the tuning marks look when I'm done. One other thing I do use is a tiny steel engraving bit from Dremel for chisel/scraper operations.
|
MP
90 posts
Mar 18, 2010
4:10 PM
|
htowmfess, interesting. i was useing sanding wands -220 and 320 grit- and liked the eveness, lack of burrs and less chance off snags compared to files. i inquired of r. sleigh re buying his tool kit, and told him i used wands and removed the blow plate to tune. he told me, "once you get used to a good file you get spoiled." well, i took his advice and bought some good files and re-learned their precarious use. i still will use a wand on short reeds because there is less chance of upsetting the arc and gap. i think i'll trust your advice over sleighs even though he does great work. i've made up tool kits for friends who want to tune and i insist they use the wand i include. i agree that wands are slower but i think there is less chance of going too sharp. iv'e wondered about reed life going down with chisels and files too. by the way, i've been tuning sharp prior to learning the bounce. now i can correct the problem thanks to you.
|
Post a Message
|
