So, I'm talking to a co-worker (jazz bass player) and he asks me what I've been up to playing wise. Mainly, he wanted me to take on a boat load of work that I did not have time to do...anyway, so I tell him "I've been songwriting and playing bluesy stuff." He could not hide his smirk. I wanted to hit him. When I played only classical music it was the same attitude towards any popular music. Nose in the air bullsh*t. I think its damn hilarious how jazz players look down on anyone who likes the blues or rock.
It just really cemented for me that I will never work with him, hang around him, talk to him, nor sit down and have a beer with him. Or look at him with any respect. Kind of a shame, he is someone I want to be able to look up to and respect. But I just can't respect that at all. Just because *you* don't take something seriously does not mean its not serious. That's like looking at pro football and saying 'eh, bunch of boys chasing balls and slapping each other's butts.' Just because some people play yard ball, that does not mean that is all there is.
It reminded me of this song...
Well I was drivin' down I-95 the other night. Somebody nearly cut me right off the road. I decided it wasn't gonna do any good to get mad. So I wrote a song about him instead.
It goes like this... Were you born an asshole? Or did you work at it your whole life? Either way it worked out fine 'cause you're an asshole tonight.
Yes you're an A S S H O L E... And don't you try to blame it on me. You deserve all the credit. You're an asshole tonight.
You were an asshole yesterday. You're an asshole tonight. And I've got a feelin' you'll be an asshole the rest of your life.
And I was talkin' to your mother just the other night. I told her I thought you were an asshole. She said, "Yes. I think you're right."
And all your friends are assholes 'cause you've known them your whole life. And somebody told me you've got an asshole for a wife.
Were you born an asshole? Or did you work at it your whole life? Either way it worked out fine 'cause you're an aaaass...hole tonight.
It would seem that some musicians (and it does seems to be more prevalent among jazz and classical musicians) that they see blues as a lesser form of music.
I suspect it's the same mentality that some people who have a formal education are elitist. I know of a great many people who have an Oxford education that firmly believe that anyone who does not have a degree is of lesser intelligence. Which is of course a stupid belief.
Of course another reason is that lots of blues musicians (especially harmonica players) seem almost proud of having a lack of any musical theory. This unfortunately tars us all with the same brush.
I wouldn't take his view to heart. I'd just take the "well you can't get along with everyone" approach to it.
Jazz snobs are a dime a dozen. To me, a musician who plays jazz and who can also play blues, rock, R&B, etc. the way those styles of music should be played is the superior musician. i am fortunate in being able to play with some really good musicians who are like that and who play fluently and well in several idioms.
That being said, too many harmonica players are blues snobs and only play blues on the instrument. There are other styles of music that can be played. Sometimes, when a musician I know invites me to sit in with a band whose other members don't know me and we are deciding what we will play, one of the other musicians will sometimes say, "Gee, we only do a couple of blues tunes," to which the musician who asked me to play usually says, "It doesn't have to be blues." Comments like that make me consider myself a musician, not just a harmonica player.
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2010 4:38 AM
Aside from posting a thread for its own sake - you know, just having a chat - I'd feel inclined not to even spend the time typing about it. Unfortunately, snobbery of one kind or another seems to be an innate part of the human condition.
Like many negative types of behaviour, when you confront them with benevolance, their perpetrators often feel quite disappointed: their strategy has failed. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
I know about this attitude. It takes a lot of work to play jazz correctly and accurately. Blues and Rock guys often have big attitudes about their music but usually don't know shit about music.
I tend to look down on certain types of musicians but I don't care about genre. If you're an idiot about whatever style you play or if you simply don't have an open mind, I'm gonna look down on you before I crush the shit out of you on stage.
To me, if you're going to be out in public playing music, there is no excuse for not knowing your instrument and especially your chosen style of music. I've been to blues jams before where I would tell the band, I want a groove in Gm for 8 bars and then we change to Bb7 for 4 bars and then back to Gm for 4 bars.
That's simple stuff guys but if you're running a jam and you can't handle it, it makes me want to scream
"Get a brian you moran!"
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
I try to work with both and don't find one 'superior' over another. They're just apples and oranges to me. Both require skill and emotion, Like harmonicamick said, some people are just straight up dicks. They then apply that dickery to whatever craft they take on. You become better, they stay a dick and eventually die with most everyone thinking that they were always a jerk.
In Senior my recital in music school all these hot jazz players screwed up the form of a basic 12 bars blues. They looked like deer in the headlights. LOL They just couldn't play the same chord for four bars.
If you want to beat the jazz snobs then you need to know three tunes. Spain, Giant Steps and Cherokee. You will also need to know a good ballad like My One and Only Love. And you will need to know Rhythm Changes.
These are the tunes jazz snobs idiots will toss at you to test your skills.
When I first moved to AZ and wanted to get plugged into the local scene I went out to jazz jam.
I show up.
"What instrument do you play?" "Harmonica" "This is a Professional Musician's jam" "Sign me up" "Um...we don't play blues or country, this is for professional jazz players." "sign me up"
What did they call? Spain
LOL. I can play the shit out of that tune. I got an every sunday gig from that jam.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
You're implying that he at least tried to hide his smirk. Maybe he's not a dick. He can't help it if he doesn't like blues. I think you may be overreacting a little bit.
There are types of music I can't stand, and I would be hard-pressed to hide my smirk. It's not that I'm looking down upon the opra fan (as an example), it's just that the though of opra makes me cringe, even though I do recognize that talent is involved. (Notice how I carefully, politely avoided the rap genre. :D )
I'm fortunate that get to jam around the corner from my house with the Budesa Brothers. The nicest guys. Not jazz snobs at all. They told me I'm one of the family. Name the tune lol. It's part fruit.
Name the genre and I`ve heard snobbiness of some sort no matter what and the vast majority of it rarely comes out of the mouth of pros. 95% of the time it comes from music fans and hobbyist more than anything else and if you need perfect examples of this, you can look up the topic of Rap Music that was discussed on this very forum and I know for a fact that I`m going to get a lot of crap for saying that, but my answer to that is, "when you sit down and think about it, aren`t you doing the exact same thing they`re doing by substituting rap for blues?" Think about it very carefully. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Buddha, I cracked up at the thought of some ego-bloated jazz pianist looking at you and saying "This is a professional musician's jam." I cracked up more imagining the look on his face when you started playing.
I'm not a pro in the slightest, but I at least have the common courtesy to give a guy the benefit of the doubt and let him start playing before I assume he doesn't have a clue what he's doing. It ain't rocket surgery, so why is it uncommon?
I remember a story about Miles Davis, when asked about some up-and-coming trumpet player, said something like, "play jazz? he can't play blues, so how can he play jazz?"
More than really bashing blues, it's really more of a statement on the level of musicianship among the average harp player, and unfortunately, the cold, hard, brutal truth (AKA tough love time) is the fact that it is often quite poor. Good musicianship entails more than just the ability to play all sorts of licks, it also has to do with the ability to really listen well, and if you listen to music like the average hobbyist/music fan, trust me, that is flat out POOR listening skills.
Most harp players I see are almost always playing strictly pentatonic, and in jazz, you can't just get away with that, and ditto with classical music. Too many players use the one size fits all method and the "blissful ignorance" method boasting they can't read music or know theory, and whenever they're put in a situation that involves something beyond the 1-4-5 changes of blues, they're on the "deer in the headlights" mode and they wind up embarrassing themselves because they never bother to truly learn their instrument inside out and music theory cold.
Chris, I still get blown away from the memory of watching Toots Theielmans in NYC back in 1978 playing Giant Steps, with the first 5 choruses played on chromatic harp, then the next 5 on guitar, and the final 5 whistling with chops to make a horn player jealous of. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I sometimes turn up at our local 'jazz' jam; the double bass player calls the tune and he is reading.
There are always 2 or 3 saxophonists who sneered at me when they saw the size of my 'organ' but when I got my turn in the solo(s), and god can they go on soloing for ages, I really enjoyed myself and wiped the smug grins offa their faces. Its right they will throw rhythm changes at you, and they dont let you in easily.
am I right that (I got) rhythm changes are just I VI II V? I've certainly played those plenty using cross harp, but mainly hokum Mississippi Sheiks style music.
I think from memory that Robert Johnson's "They're Red Hot" uses something like this four chord trick
Buddha/Harmonica Nick - Any advice for learning this in a jazz context?
Rhythm Changes are a 32-bar chord progression in the AABA form. They can be quiet daunting to improvise over because they are played very fast most of the time. Here's the basic progression...
"I tend to look down on certain types of musicians but I don't care about genre. If you're an idiot about whatever style you play or if you simply don't have an open mind, I'm gonna look down on you before I crush the shit out of you on stage."
"To me, if you're going to be out in public playing music, there is no excuse for not knowing your instrument and especially your chosen style of music"
That's exactly what I told my 11 year old when he was up on stage trying to play his recorder. I'll use you words to inspire him.
I can not describe it, personally I feel it, which is not much advice... but I listen to and love jazz a lot..so listen to cd's by Chick Corea, Miles, Brecker Brothers, Herbie, weather report, George Benson etc etc
Too often the average harp player doesn't realize for a NY minute that the way they go about things, they do nothing but perpetuate each and every negeative stereotype about them and it never fails to totally p*** me off!!!!
How often in an open jam do you see people who DON'T play harmonica tell them what key harp to use? Why? It's because the average player often hasn't got a freaking clue what notes are available on their instruments right off the bat, and anything past the 1-4-5 changes of blues, they're absolutely clueless.
When I ran a jam, I saw this every single night and when some jammers played tunes that had some other changes but wanted harp in it, I'd often get called instead of others because flat out, the majority of the players couldn't find their way thru them even if they had a freaking specially made GPS to find the notes for them. Is it any wonder why harp players are NOT respected very much????
From a few pro players, trust me, I have heard statements from musicians who play other instruments like the harp player is the dumbest freaking musician on the bandstand and a lot worse. You know what's really horrible about that is that too often, it's the cold, hard, brutal truth that almost no harp player wants to hear, much like the way junkies and alcoholics want to be told that they have an addiction problem and they tell you you're a jerk, condescending, and all other BS excuses, other than facing the truth.
As a harp player dedicated to his craft and seeing players constantly perpetuating these negative stereotypes, it freaking hurts!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
1) Point noted, and is certainly good to think about. While I think of rap as something you do while music is playing, rather than creating music...that does not mean I don't have respect for it. Not to get that conversation started again or anything.
2) You are right, it does hurt. Particularly when I've well established myself as a director, cranking out quality kids every year. When I've spend a third of my life playing piano, and the instant I talk about playing harp or songwriting, I loose respect? wtf?
@buddah ditto everything you said in your first post.
@my co-worker I guess that if wanted my co-workers respect I should have kept playing piano through my injury, lost sleep for a year from numb arms, and still be in the same situation I was in two years ago. Instead I stopped, shifted focus, and so could continue my craft. Granted, my hands may have been ruined for life, but boy, he would have thought of me as TOUGH!
I keep waiting for Saturday Night Live-era John Lovitz to pop up and say, 'I was ACTING!', but it doesn't happen...groan... ---------- Todd L. Greene, V.P.
@Bob: I was mostly self taught (taking lessons), but what ticked me off was when I played a jam, and if I wasn't "on", I would ask what I did wrong, or what I could do better. Everyone always said "No, man, you sound good!" I KNOW I didn't sound good, I KNOW these guys knew things that could improve me, and I begged for criticism, but they never gave it.
i think all jazz guys hate blues guys now cause thats what happened then jazz was invented after the blues. i took a jazz an blues history class in college, an i remember stories of jazz guys in the club allways lookin down on the blues guys an even lookin down on other jazz guys cause there skills werent up to par. ----------
This thread is quite sad. There definately is music theory involved in playing proper blues music. If it was so brainless everybody could do it like the pros from day 1.
---------- ~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
A lot of good drumming technique for blues actually evolved from jazz and the best example is the one drummer in blues often considered the best of the best is Fred Below, who started out as a jazz drummer and when he was brought into a band by Louis and Dave Myers and Junior Wells (The Jukes), he adapted jazz technique to create the standard that all blues drummers are judged against. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
May I offer a word from a beginner/intermediate harp player.
BBQBob, let me apologise on behalf of all of us who can't measure up to your awesome harp playing self. We are truly not worthy to share the stage with your majesty. Your masterful jamming to the "other changes" brings tears to our eyes. I am embarrassed by our pedestrian knowledge of music theory and the harmonica.
Rest assured Bob, that should any of us find ourselves at the same jam as you, we will lay our harps down and have a Guinness or two at the back of the room, lest we make fools of ourselves in the presence of your genius.
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2010 8:26 AM
I am in super-awe of you Chris....you are the Les Paul of the harmonica and the Sigfried and Roy (sorry, couldn't come up with a better analogy) of the dog world.
