The recent debate questioning whether Bruno Mars is guilty of cultural appropriation mirrors the discussions we often have in the blues community. Does a black musician, by bloodline, have more of a "right" to play blues than musicians of other races? Should Bruno Mars, who identifies as Puerto Rican and Filipino, be excluded from playing black music? In 2018, isn't all American music in some way owing to black influences?
"What separates cultural appropriation from a cultural exchange or paying homage is when someone “borrows” an item or symbol of cultural significance without acknowledgment, attribution or permission. One of the other hallmarks of appropriation is using someone’s culture to demean, make fun of or diminish it."
That's kind of how I'd define it, although if you are going to argue that you need to acknowledge your sources I think you need to explain the context that that happens in or people will be arguing about that.
I'm a white guy that plays blues and rock. I have no problem acknowledging that a lot of black music either influenced me directly or influenced people who influenced me (more of the second, I'd say, in my 'formative years', maybe more of the first since I've taken up harmonica).
But what form does that acknowledgment take? Am I off the hook because I just acknowledged it or do I have to keep doing it every time I perform? Am I okay because I support Black Lives Matter or because I have several black friends? Am I okay because I know that I'm influenced by black artists? Obviously some of those things really aren't relevant and maybe some are. I think, at the very least when someone asks 'are you influenced by black artists' you have to have a reasonably historically accurate answer.
I do see a problem with defining certain groups of minorities as 'in' groups and others as 'out'. I had a black friend who noticed when I was watching a video of Sugar Pie Desanto. She loved it until she found out Desanto was of Filipino ancestry, not black, as if a Filipino woman wasn't going to face discrimination. That's a sort of cultural tribalism that I think does a disservice to the minority struggle in general. (The same friend had a problem with homosexuality until Obama came out for gay marriage.)
I'm not going to start every song I sing by going into how I'm influenced by black music because that would get tedious. I'm an outsider for most purposes when it comes to civil rights fights, although I was raised steeped in believing in the cause. My mother, as a white woman, was at the march on D.C. when MLK had a dream and the first musical show I ever went to see as a kid was Pete Seeger, who was very much interested in civil rights and cultural exchange. Mostly I do originals on the rare occasions I get out to play. The only song I do that is most famously performed by a black performer is St. James Infirmary. I think I usually have mentioned that my first exposure to it was the Satchmo version (He didn't write it. Wikipedia says the first copyright on the lyrics belongs to either Don Redman, who is black, or Irving Mills, who was Jewish, although either way it was based on an older song.)
I think I agree with the author but not the speaker in the video.
One could make a pretty good argument that without the influence of black people American music would be an artistic wasteland. But no racial or ethnic group has a monopoly on particular musical idioms. I play with black musicians quite regularly and the distinction these musicians make is whether a particular musician can play the idiom being played effectively, not what color they are. This whole appropriation thing is artificial. Bruno Mars can play his ass off!
Right now I'm working up a duo thing with a black chic who sings and plays piano. She had been singing overseas in a Persian Gulf country professionally but came back home because her Dad was ill.
Anyway first thing we do is she gives me her song list of about 50 tunes she sings and .knows on piano. Now, one would expect her book to include a lot of R&B. While there was some R&B and some jazz and a little blues, there was also quite a bit of lily white pop and rock songs that some of us would not expect a black girl to be singing. I mentioned that and she said, that's what the audiences want to hear--they don't want to listen to Aretha Franklin and James Brown tunes all night long! Moral of the story: she's a professional who does not allow herself to be limited (or defined) by stereotypes. And now I've got to learn a bunch of tunes in first position, which will be good for my development.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 13, 2018 6:23 PM
Goldbrick: I basically agree with you. The problem is, it feels right to many white people to put on a Blues Brothers hat, dance around in silly circles, and play at being black in a way that is clearly indebted to a long and annoying tradition of blackface minstrelsy. Burlesque.
I guess I just don't think that white folks who claim to "love the blues" should be mocking it, which is what burlesque is.
Harmonicas were invented in Germany and the best ones are still manufactured there. It’s an instrument that is quite accustomed to being appropriated by other cultures, and takes no offense at who plays it so long as it’s the right key.
Last Edited by Sundancer on Mar 13, 2018 7:58 PM
Appropriation has been with us forever, although I would suggest that the non-black musicians playing music that is African American in origin have, for the most part, a genuine love of the sounds they've been exposed to. Theft is theft and black creators must be located, credited and their families paid for the use of the bodies of work that formed the foundation for a huge amount of American culture and acharacter, but at the same time it seems reductive and ironically bigoted to suggest that only black musicians have the right, let alone the sole ability to make authentic jazz, blues, or rhythm and blues. Forcing matters of creativity into a any kind of requirements for acceptance is absurd and contrary to what art is supposed to do, the process through which an individual--an artist--experiences the world and , through the use of whatever medium moves him enough to create objects of beauty of contemplation that hadn't existed before. Pretty much going with Marcuse on this one, as in his bookd the Aesthetic Dimension, where he argues that Society, The Establishment, the Powers that Be, need to leave the artists and allow them to perform their task with their art making, to produce joy. Otherwise, if held to aesthetic principles that are contrary to inspiration, it ceases to be art. It is Propaganda. We do not need an American version of Soviet Realism, no matter where it comes from.
I have no problem giving credit where due. When we have an audience we often state the author of the material. Conversations on break often move into who actually wrote "that Led Zep Song" etc. I look over many years of being influenced by the early blues guys and gals with gratitude.
The feeling is universal. Those who found a very attractive way to express and transmute the feeling into joy have done an invaluable service to the human community as a whole. It's my privilege to try and pass this on.
I was influenced by my Brit granddad first, with a harp in his face, doing everything from Sonny and Brownie stuff to WWI marching songs to cowboy saws. A bit later at age 6 or 7 I discovered the big AM radio shows in the early 60's, so-called "race radio". Early helpings of Bobby Blue Bland, BB, Slim Harpo, Muddy, Jimmy Reed, Wolf, and all the rest changed me forever. That era was short lived. I was stuck with rock and roll and those watered down imitations of great music I had heard early in life. Eventually the Brit Invasion brought the blues heroes back into mainstream America and I got to reconnect.
The debt I owe to those founders is probably not ever going to be paid in full, but every chance I get I give credit.
Cultural appropriation is, IMO, just another social justice warrior over the top reverse racism ploy...I believe in Seattle, WA, they made a big deal about a caucasian chef running a Mexican restaurant - that he shouldn't be allowed to prepare and sell food created by a different culture.
I have known both Asian Americans working in Mexican restaurants and Hispanic cooks working in Asian restaurant kitchens. While we're on the subject, is it "cultural appropriation" to do fusion cuisine? Totally OT. ----------
Cultural appropriation far too frequently strikes me as the dominion of the easily offended. I can grasp plagiarism or theft against individuals, but in those cases you see tangible harm or offense . . . none of this "bruised feelings" nonsense. Last time I checked, causing "bruised feelings" wasn't a crime (though it probably will be soon).
Should I be offended, being an Ozark hillbilly, over films such as "Three Billboards Outside of Ebbing, Missouri?" I mean, those actors weren't of my world; what gives them the right to portray "my people" in a stereotypical manner? How about The Beverly Hillbillies, or Hee Haw?
Of course not. That would be idiotic
Last Edited by Rontana on Mar 14, 2018 7:04 AM
+1 on what Adam is saying about the insulting nature of what is the equivalent of blackface minstrel show mimickery.
I have had the good fortune to work with some really good musicians who can play convincingly in multiple idioms: They play blues like they grew up picking cotton in Mississippi; they play Reggae like they just got done smoking some gange in Kingston; they play country as if they were an Okie from Muskogee; play show tunes like they just finished a rehearsal for a Broadway play, etc. But they are able to do this because they have studied different types of music and have come to understand and respect the intricacies and musical nuances that define each idiom and have developed sufficient technical proficiency to play fluently on their instrument in those respective different styles. Some jazz performance majors in university music programs develop these skills. Some of them have supplemented formal training with experience performing with authentic practitioners of particular idioms. And the type of versatile musicians I am talking about don't typically don fedoras and sunglasses to play blues or Cowboy hats to play country unless costuming for a particular show requires them to do so.
I contrast this to the type of thing one local harp player does: He's very good at mimicking old timey blues recordings note for note--REALLY good, so he sounds authentic. He's white, but on stage tries to act and talk like a racist stereotype of an uneducated, ignorant black guy and carries on about his devotion to the blues and worshipful admiration for the old blues musicians. Personally, I find his stage presentation offensive, condescending and hypocritical. And to make it worse, if he's at a jam and is caught on stage when an R&B tune is called he sounds like shit because he can't cop a funky groove competently. If he has to play outside of that old timey blues idiom, his sense of rhythm is exposed as being terminally white. He ain't what he pretends to be and the pretense is, to my sensibilities, disrespectful and insulting to the musicians he claims to admire.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 14, 2018 4:09 PM
TRUE STORY: A couple of years ago I was trying to book at this primarily black venue that was in a pretty decent neighborhood and under new ownership that was trying to expand their clientele by appealing to a mixed crowd. At the time, I had an ensemble with a black drummer and a black guitar player that was going over well with with both white and black audiences. So a friend of the manager who did the booking approached me, told me about the place and suggested I talk to the manager about playing there. I thought we'd be a perfect fit.
So, I go by to check out the venue and to find out when the manger was going to be in. Pretty cool room with good acoustics and cheap very decent food. I don't remember if I was the only white person there, but it was an all black staff and an overwhelmingly black crowd, but the place had a very comfortable and welcoming vibe. So, I go back a couple of days later, clear through the metal detector order a drink and wait for the manger to break free. Eventually he comes over and we start to talk. I start telling him about the band. His first question was "Do you play any Lynard Skynard?" Apparently, what he had in mind was a rock cover band which is not what I do.
MORAL OF THE STORY: Stereotypes work in all directions.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 14, 2018 9:41 AM
Rontana sez: Last time I checked, causing "bruised feelings" wasn't a crime (though it probably will be soon).
It's not a crime, but is definitely litigious. Way back in the 70's, when someone successfully sued (and won) someone else for hurting their feelings, I predicted that this would be the end of rational civilization....end of all those wonderful Italian, Pollock, Jew, etc joke books!
Better watch out and not "offend" anyone. They can now sue you.... ---------- The Iceman
Iceman - - - I spent many years as a columnist for a sizeable number of newspapers and magazines, and was fired more than a few times for expressing the very same opinions I was initially hired to write.
These days I wouldn't dare write the copy I had published in years past. Nothing racist or sexist - just opinions presented with satire and humor - but in this era those same pieces would either get me sued or destroyed via social media.
These days I stick to writing outdoors/human interest stuff for only a couple of magazines. To do otherwise is not worth the hassle (and potentially, the personal and financial liability)
The late Don Rickles would have been stoned if he'd try to do a set on a college campus in the present era (Chris Rock and Seinfeld have said they'll no longer play colleges. Too risky).
"Cultural appropriation is, IMO, just another social justice warrior over the top reverse racism ploy..." Iceman
I think all ideas can be carried to illogical extremes. I think, when you are talking about old record companies taking advantage of black recording artists or minstrel shows or venues that won't hire black artists because they make their audience uncomfortable then it's something that needs to be talked about.
I think attribution is important regardless of race. We used to do a song that we were exposed to through Nirvana, but originally it was a Meat Puppets song. We'd usually mention that when we performed it. It was an easy bit of information to through into our banter (probably even helped our image, giving people the idea that we knew some musical history.) In that case, both bands were white.
We always try to avoid being minstrelly when doing blues stuff. I've even run some lyrics passed friends to see, when I was writing with a different voice, if I was crossing into caricature. It was a pretty innocent line, and I ended up using it, but I wasn't sure so I checked. (It was just using grandmomma rather than grandma because it fit the rhythm better. I think that is more of a regional/socioeconomic thing than a racial thing.) But I've run across lyrics where I think it's a bigger deal. There was one where the line 'high yella' was used, talking about dogs, but it was pretty clear the dogs was an allusion. A white guy (or even a dark skinned black person) could offend someone with that line if they don't understand the context it was used. That's a case where, if I was going to perform that song, I'd explain the context in addition to giving it proper attribution. Or a white guy singing 'Strange Fruit'... there are times when I think certain songs are racial property of sorts.
All that said, like I started out, many ideas are good ideas to start with but can be taken to illogical extremes. It's not just race even. A trust fund kid who has never worked a day in his life singing a song about blisters from working on a factory floor and comparing it to the blisters he got skiing in Aspen? Yeah, we should probably call that out... even if the kid is black.
I think the crux of the problem is that sometimes people try art on as a way of projecting a persona. That's fine, but if you are using it to project a persona in an offensive way, particularly if you are punching down, or if you are doing it in a way that makes light of other people's hardships...
Like I said, I think the author put it pretty well, but I think the woman in the video was taking it to illogical extremes.
It goes to authenticity that one writes in a style that is natural to them; whites writing in idioms that makes sense for Mance Liscomb is clearly insulting to black musicians and black culture in general. It is a not so subtle form of racism: it says "I think you're exotic, not quite human, something wholly "other" than normal. I will take your funny sounds and use them to decorate my cosmology." Absent the absolutist argument that only black musicians have the right to play blues and are the only ones who can have anything authentic expression (its' a powerful argument), the bottom line of the blues is the clear, simple, emotionally honest expression of one's experiences. That would mean that one find their own voice, something they can bring of themselves to the music they desire to perform and make it genuinely personal. There is a difference, a fine one, between having a personal style greatly influenced by black music and singers and one that slavishly tries to impersonate the sound, causing all sorts of suspicious Rich Little-isms. Those influenced by black artists but who have their own style, free of affectation: Butterfield,Mose Allison, Van Morrison, Tom Waits. Those who fail : Jagger, when he sings blues, Peter Wolfe, others galore. ---------- www.ted-burke.com
As a kid I hung on a corner, and IN the alley we sang R&B Doo-WOP, Because of the natural reverb and echo.There were Black & White people who shared this and all music and loved it.My neighbor was a Black Woman who sang in her church, and use to tell me if feel it sing it , or I`ll call the law?...I remember going to the church when they had touring groups performing at that church, so good that the hair on your neck would rize.So in the long run I wound up playing guitar & harp, the word we used when talking about learning the craft was Assimilate, and that's what I`ve been doing my whole life...
Not buying the "cultural appropriation" thing, sorry. If a white, yellow, brown, black or any other color person wants to put on a blues brother suit and dance around they have my blessing. If a black actor wants to do Elizabethan monologues have at it. If an Asian wants to play country folk songs be my guest. Yeah black artists were taken advantage of and so were white artists. Blacks have contributed plenty to western music and so obviously have whites. Blacks have been influenced by white music and many jazz standards covered by black artists were written by white composers. Who gives a damn. Isn't there enough divisiveness in this world already. I don't think Martin Luther would by into the cultural appropriation thing either. Live and let live everyone, enough with the bullshit boundaries. @Mirco I checked out the link you sent and in my opinion what a bunch hateful and opinionated diatribe.
Wolf is listenable and usually effective as vocalist and front man, but he never convinced me that his style was cleverly constructed, contrived. I won't go as far as to say he's guilty of minstrelry, but his his banter where spews hip argot, rope-a-dope rhymes and other offerings of hep-cat impersonation,comes off as cartoonish, stagy, really stereotypical of black performance; whether Cab Calloway or James Brown or an inspired preacher sermonizing from the pulpit of a black church, Wolf's machine gun is appropriation straight out. I had often wished he'd just keep his mouth shut and just sing.Yes , I realize the irony of the last sentence,but I think you see my point even if you might not agree with it.
J.Geils is a band I've enjoyed a great deal over the last few decades, but there are times when Wolf's unreconstructed enthusiasm turns into caricature and stereotype. He reminds me of someone trying to beat his influences at their own game rather than forging something that is really his own.
Something I forgot to mention. Everyone's opinion is different at some level. No one should have the right to impose on someone else what they should like or not like. Some things I didn't like at all when I was younger I have learned to appreciate now and I'm sure that will continue the older I get.
Thanks for your response Ted. J. Geils disbanded decades ago. You might consider listening to some of Peter’s solo stuff. Or checking him out when he next plays in SoCal. He may well be the last of the great frontmen.
At the link in the OP, the writer states all american music is black or native american. Not sure about all but I'm pretty sure the wailing appalachian style as in the Noah Lewis video in the other forum post is from the Virginia and West Virginia mountains. The Noah Lewis harp may be black blues but I'm pretty sure the wailing vocals and basic guitar strum are mountain folk derived, well insulated from slavery.
