Philosofy
815 posts
Apr 22, 2017
4:26 PM
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The Easttop thread inspired me to pull out my set of Easttop harps, and I tried playing Whammer Jammer with my A harp. But the 1 draw rattles, and so does the ten hole full step bend. I'm not an expert harp tech, but I got out the tools I bought from Oldwailer and took a look. The one draw plinked ok, and seemed to be centered in the slot. I ran a shim up and down the sides of the reed, and got a little resistance on one side. I kept running the shim up and down the side of the reed until it seemed that the resistance was gone, but I'm still getting a reed rattle. Its definitely not hitting the cover, since the covers were off.
The ten blow mystifies me. Both reeds plink ok, and the blow and draw seem to play fine, but I get a rattle on the blow bend. They seem to be gapped about the same as the 9 hole reeds.
Andrew, Greg, or other experienced harp techs: care to comment on the causes?
Thanks!
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arzajac
1826 posts
Apr 22, 2017
4:39 PM
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Can you post a sound clip? What happens with the covers off? What happens when you bend the 1 draw down as you hear the rattle? Covers off and obstructing the 1 draw, can you play the overblow 1 hard enough to make the rattle?
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
Last Edited by arzajac on Apr 22, 2017 4:39 PM
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Philosofy
816 posts
Apr 22, 2017
5:06 PM
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The rattle disappears on the draw bend. I'm not an overblower and my tools are put away, but when I open it up I'll let you know what happens.
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SuperBee
4637 posts
Apr 23, 2017
11:11 PM
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'Rattle' is a term which I suppose might mean different things to different people.
I'm not familiar with them but I think I've read these harps are spot-welded. Is that correct?
If the reed is not hitting the covers, then I'd be looking at the idea of it hitting the side of the slot as it passes through. Sometimes a reed will twist a little on its way through a slot and make a slight contact. This is more likely with a thick reed like a 1 slot where the free end is relatively heavy and deep. It's worth having a look at.
Look down onto the reed from squarely above and watch as you move it into the slot.
Also watch from the free end and see if both sides enter the slot at the same time, or if there is a twist.
There could be a little burr. I know you've run a shim along both sides of the slot but burrs can be tricky. Sometimes you have to look from just the right angle to spot what's happening.
Observation is gonna be important in identifying what's going on.
Consider magnification and appropriate light. Too much light can flare and make it hard to see fine detail.
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chromaticblues
1770 posts
Apr 26, 2017
7:50 AM
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Philosofy to add to what SuperBee said, his 2nd paragraph about looking into the slot at a 90 degree angle is great advice. I would suggest doing so with a light source behind the reed plate with the reeds facing the light. You can just hold it up to a lamp a couple feet away and gentle push the reed into the slot from the middle of the reed. If it's hitting you should see it doing that. The real problem is that it's spot welded! Ok if you still can't find it take a bright colored magic marker and put a .005 shim under the reed. Mark the length of both sides of the reed. Play it until it makes the sound then look at the sides of the reed with a magnifying glass. Walla!
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MP
3435 posts
Apr 26, 2017
5:41 PM
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Great advice! That was totally funny chromaticblues! Spot welding is a great idea if you know how to fix broken reeds/can afford the Suzuki tools... etc.
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Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time.
Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark
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Last Edited by MP on Apr 26, 2017 5:48 PM
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Philosofy
817 posts
Apr 26, 2017
8:34 PM
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The reed is riveted. A friend who's a pretty good customizer took a quick look at it Sunday on his break, and thinks I need to center the reed. I've looked at it with a light source behind it, but never thought to move the reed in and out while observing it. I'll try that next.
Thanks guys!
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Slimharp
436 posts
Apr 27, 2017
9:49 AM
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Sometimes, especially on draw 1, if the blow reed gap is set real tight, it will cause the draw reed to really flex out. Try opening the the gap on the blow 1 and see if that helps.
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dougharps
1414 posts
Apr 27, 2017
10:48 AM
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My EastTop Low F will rattle on draw 1 if I attack it too hard. I have also had this occur on my older model Delta Frosts (Harpmaster?) on A and G harps draw 1, and on a G Crossover. If I attack really hard my Seydel 1847 Low F draw 1 will also rattle, to a lesser extent than the EastTop Low F. I used to be a hard player and still occasionally get carried away and attack too hard.
If I use a more moderate attack with less air, and I don't try to draw bend it the note down hard and fast to the floor, then the note plays just fine. It seems to be an issue with lower keyed harps with weighted pads on the low draw reeds not handling hard attacks with lots of air.
As to your 10 hole blow bend, I have never had such an issue on a high reed. Occasionally I have had 10 hole reeds that needed tweaking to blow bend properly.
Go ahead and check/adjust reed alignment, but I think it is an issue of using too hard an attack causing torsional forces to distort the reed shape as it moves in the slot. I think it is the nature of the reed to respond like this when subjected to too much airflow, too fast and hard.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Apr 27, 2017 10:53 AM
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Philosofy
818 posts
Apr 27, 2017
11:27 AM
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Doug, it happens when I play very, very softly.
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Slimharp
438 posts
Apr 27, 2017
12:18 PM
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Philosofy, It's one of 4 things. 1. You have a burr in the reed slot ( which usually keeps the reed from fully playing ) 2. The reed is out of alignment and the reed tip is hitting the top of the slot,3. the reed rivet ( or weld ) is loose 4. the blow reed gap is too tight causing the draw reed to super flex way to far causing a rattle(blow and draw reeds per hole work in tandem to each other ) You may want to open up the blow reed gap a tad and see if that helps. I encounter that on A's - G's and low tuned harps - mostly on draw 1. It could be that the reed is hitting the cover plate but that is more of a clicking sound.
Last Edited by Slimharp on Apr 27, 2017 12:20 PM
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SuperBee
4645 posts
Apr 27, 2017
2:06 PM
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Or the reed has a twist. Not quite the same as out of alignment. A reed with a twist might appear to be well aligned when at rest.
I've seen this especially on weighted reeds like the low-tuned Seydel but also on harps as high as A.
However if your harp-builder mate thinks it's misaligned no doubt he is correct.
Since they are riveted it should be nbd to line it up.
The 10 reed could be a different deal and to me sounds likely it is more like a reed which might be getting a twist going under pressure. Maybe it's just my current bug, I'm working on a bunch of reedplates for a (seydel-endorsed) player who works the high end enough that his most common failures are 9 and 10 slot reeds. So I'm paying lots of attention to his high end reeds. They definitely perform better when they aren't twisted.
Some of these reedplates I'm repairing have been previously worked on in Europe by a guy who has used blutac in a similar way to how sleigh et al use wax or nail varnish at the rivet end to eliminate buzzing. He has put the putty in from the slot side. I'd not seen that before but if it works, why not? Probably will last longer than wax
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dougharps
1415 posts
Apr 27, 2017
4:38 PM
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@Philosofy
If "it happens when I play very, very softly" even after flossing with shim material and holding it up to a light and seeing no issues, then it truly is a mystery! Playing softly rules out my thoughts on this.
Maybe the rivet is too loose or the alignment is just a little close and needs adjustment, as suggested by Slimharp.
Please let us know if you figure it out.
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Doug S.
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MP
3438 posts
Apr 27, 2017
5:37 PM
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Remove reed plate. Give the rivet a tap w/ a hammer and a nail set. Then shim it again to check alignment and see what happens. Sometimes reeds get a loose. Worth a shot?
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Reasonably priced Reed Replacement and tech support on Hand Made Series Hohner Diatonic Harmonicas.
'Making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time.
Click MP for more info. Aloha Mark
.
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ROBERT TEMPLE II
77 posts
Aug 21, 2019
3:49 PM
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I recently bought a Kongsheng Mars that has a problem that sounds a lot like the o.p.'s here. Hole four, right out of the box, very first gentle blow and I heard a rattle/gurgle. I hope someone here may add to the list of potential fixes for the rattle/gurgling. some great ideas already here, thanks very much, y'all.
Last Edited by ROBERT TEMPLE II on Sep 01, 2019 9:34 PM
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SuperBee
6129 posts
Aug 21, 2019
4:25 PM
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If it tests fine but the problem re-emerges when assembled, to me that points to a non-flat reedplate or comb, so when you bolt it together the relationship of reed to slot is different than when you take it apart to inspect it.
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nacoran
10164 posts
Aug 23, 2019
7:03 AM
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You know what might be really useful (Andrew, maybe you could do it since you do videos regularly anyway, but any customizer could do it)... take a harp and break it in different ways and make a recording of the sounds you get from it. It could be a good diagnostic tool for people. Reed rattle from reeds hitting covers, buzz from a bur or mild alignment problems, a dead reed, leaky sounds,... combined with some tips on how to fix them. I talked a friend through fixing a misaligned reed in five minutes but that required getting him to stop panicking (it was a brand new harmonica), carefully describe the sound it was making and then talk him through the repair. I can hear the difference between a burr and a rattle, but I'd have a hard time describing the difference to a new player.
More basic than hotrodding your harmonica... stuff to restore basic functions. I can fix those problems but I'm not sure I could break a harmonica carefully enough to get them. I do have a LLF that rattles its 1 draw sometimes. Occasionally the 1 reed will go out of alignment too (or it used to, I fixed the rivet) and the reed wouldn't sound unless I played a blow note first- although a reed not sounding is much easier to describe than a buzz!
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Nate
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groyster1
3424 posts
Aug 29, 2019
7:52 AM
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I have 2 custom marine bands built by sugar cain,one in Ab and the other in G,the covers are elevated in lower register to correct against reed rattle
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