Ok the title was more less to get peoples attention.
Lately as Im listening to music alot of the Chicago Style amped players really just blend together. It's really hard to differentiate between players. For example when Rice Miller, Horton, Cotton comes on ..... you know it.
So .... Im not picking on Kim Wilson, but just for the sake of argument ... to try and make this point more focused and not just some broad generalization ... and simply because people seem to love Kim .... Im using him as an example.
What would you say sets Kim apart from every other Chicago Amped Player out there? It seems that 90% of what is played is just the same old generic stuff. Pretty standard sounding riffs, fills and rythms.
Maybe Im way of base, IDK. But Im curious to get your take on the subject. ----------
"What would you say sets Kim apart from every other Chicago Amped Player out there? It seems that 90% of what is played is just the same old generic stuff. Pretty standard sounding riffs, fills and rythms."
When you start to become better musician, you also start becoming a better listening. KW does not play the same old stuff, sure, there are some licks, but that is the language of the blues. Search the For Pops album, whit MW son. in there you can hear Kim playing in LW style while he is not playing like LW.
---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
What sets Kim apart? His exemplary tone, his control of the bent notes, his complete mastery of hole 3, his licks, his song choices, his timing, his incredible rhythm playing, his singing, the fact that he very rarely slides into a bent note. Preferring instead to hit them straight on, his choice of musicians to play alongside, his insistence upon not showboating too much, his constant desire to play in the service of the song, his complete control during every note he plays, his constant inventiveness which is refreshing yet always remaining true to the genre, his complete professionalism, his ability to relate to the ordinary person and not seem aloof in any fashion, the fact he is a thoroughly nice stand up guy, the fact that he always makes time for his fans, the fact that he absolutely loves the music and realises just how blessed he is and acknowledges that at every turn. Need I go on?
In recent years, Kim has participated in some more traditionalist recordings, including the soundtrack for "Cadillac Records" in which he was impersonating Little Walter's playing. He's good at that. His work with Jimmy Rogers on "Ludella" definitely borrows heavily from LW.
But that's not all he is or has ever been. His early stuff with the Thunderbirds was very original--a fusion of Chicago style with Texas grooves. Here are two of my favorite cuts from that era:
He swings hard and in his own way, and he's in complete syn with a smoking hot rhythm section.
This one was shared here a few years ago. Good example of the live thing. I don't hear much in the way of Kim's influences here. Not much Little Walter. He's got his own sound. And it is a big, open sound--big octaves, surprising but always-right timing--with very powerful bends, always perfectly in tune. It ain't easy to play like this, much less come up with a style like this:
If you listen to this all the way through, 10 minutes of your time, I think you'll have the answer to your question.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 04, 2016 10:33 AM
For me, it's the little things that he does and his overall phrasing.
One little thing is all his different ornamentations (pops, slaps, scoops, swells, etc) that are more about the attack/release from notes and not so much the notes themselves.
He's also a seriously smooth player; starting and stopping passages at times I don't anticipate, but sounding really fluid when doing so.
I wasn't immediately drawn to Kim's playing, but acquired an appreciation over time as I've matured as a player. I'm making pretty much the same point as Rognozab is.
Longevity? I saw him several years ago in Solana Beach and from my upper level perch I looked down and saw a sea of gray and bald heads in the audience. Oddly, no blue.
This is of course in addition to his previously mentioned talent.
Having booked Kim to a SPAH and working with him in different situations personally, there is a professional side to him that is not apparent from just listening to his music.
He is a total professional who does give 150% as long as he is also treated with respect. I've seen him extend his contracted set for an additional 40 minutes because he was really enjoying himself. He is a solid blue collar type worker who doesn't disappoint.
I've also seen him in a very bad mood, but put it all aside once he was asked for a photo op with a few fans. He is a true entertainer.
You have to see him play live. It's powerful. You also see all the hotshot harp players in town standing there with their jaws on the floor. At the Harmonica Summit in Minneapolis, Bonfiglio talked about how his job was to jump on stage, manipulate everyone's emotions, and then throw them out into the street. I asked him about it after his seminar and his eyes bugged open and he said,"Did you see Kim Wilson last night?!!" There's an interview with him in Kim Field's book where he says something like, "I've had guts fly out of it before". It's kind of like that.
Last Edited by Bluestu18 on Aug 04, 2016 12:54 PM
I read all the comments and it could have stopped after the first one from Rogonzab: "When you start to become better musician, you also start becoming a better listening." That may be a bit of cart before horse but I certainly appreciate it. My constructive suggestion would be to listen to Ludella. Maybe you already have and KW's thing ain't for you. Like I think Popper sounds like a circus ride, but some people dig him. Ok.
Last Edited by Littoral on Aug 04, 2016 12:57 PM
I really liked Popper playing since I first listened to his playing and in next ten years I even started to love his playing more than earlier I started to understand and hear rhythm and dynamics things better. BTW, Popper’s timeing is always too. Earlier I loved Popper less than Howard, now I love Popper more than Howard. So I always wondered why big part of harmonica community doesn't get his style.
So completely opposite things about Kim Wilson. You possible know I am not a big fan of traditional blues style. I never listen to non-harmonica blues it don’t move me (I always love hip-hop, funky stuff, drum’n’bass and multi-stylistic singers-songwriters). And I never listen to acoustic harmonica blues now. However I love to listen to great amplified harmonica tone. Recently I opened Steve Guyger and Gary Smith and I think their tones are perfect. So I never really liked Kim Wilson although I listened to some of his solo albums several time each. For me his tone was way too dark and too muddy and his playing was nothing special and not as great as Little Walter’s playing (I absolutely agree that LW was true genius!). And I was wondered that Kim is actually a star and he is regularly mentioned as best. At SPAH-2013 I was wondered to see players respected by me (much more respected than Kim Wilson at that time) in line to get his autograph. I listened to two songs of his gig at SPAH and I got bored but I started feeling something odd in my understanding. Anyway I was deeply interested why he is so popular and respected. And after getting home I get all his albums just to understand. First of all I was completely shocked by «High Water» album, I relistened to it dosen of times, as it is very close to what I want to hear: new way to use old stuff. It is almost hip-hop music with fat blues harp (great full harmonica tone there too!). Than I start to listened to more recordings, transcribe them and to jam along his solos to understand better what is special about his playing. And finally I get it. First of all I really dig his tone on some recordings I missed before, e.g. 1993 Tigerman. Than I understand that his phrasing is too far from «jazz» sax-like phrasing I used to hear from LW. His phrases is not «sax» melodies, but his phrasing is a unique way to build groove solo. Along with it I understand that human like his male brutal bold-head mucho appearance, possible it does not move me, but generally people love it. So after 10+ years knowing about Kim Wilson I finally start to love his playing, and I think «High Water» is one of the best harmonica albums ever. ---------- My website. My album with Mikhail Bashakov. Seydel endorser. LoneWolf Blues Co endorser. Harmonica teacher. My facebook.
Last Edited by boris_plotnikov on Aug 04, 2016 3:20 PM
Yeah I can see how you might think what kW does is generic. Try playing his stuff sometime. Lotta comments above get to it pretty well. He has studied and learnt and can play all the best of the best. I think he possibly is the best. He can do just about anything any blues harp player ever did, with control, all over the harp. He's pretty versatile. He's got the styles of so many great players in his pocket, that when he plays you might think you've heard it all before. But dig, he is one guy and he does the best of the best and puts it together his own way. Kw is probably the exemplary harmonica player for me. If there was only one, he would do.
Wilson IS the whole package. Like LW before him he's a band leader, songwriter, Great singer, entertainer, excellent sideman, and he's a fantastic harmonica player. Most folks just play harp, Yawn...zzzzzz ---------- Have good day. M.A.P. .
I knew some people were gonna get a lil testy about this one.
I have alot of kims albums. And ludella is really the only one i ever listen to. And i do listen to that one a good bit.
Adam. Those first two songs i liked alot. Maybe ill dig back into his older stuff. And thanks for actually trying to explain what i asked (even if i wasnt very clear), instead of telling me how great a guy he is.
As i said this wasnt specifically about kim. And when i said what sets him apart from other players, i meant players of his caliber, not the guy at your local jam.
I think Boris hit the nail in the head. And Maybe it's just not my thing. I do tend to prefer more acoustic playing. I liked amped aswell, but i think guys like kim are just too muddy sounding. I like it for a break up of the monotony, but other than that .... I lose interest really fast. I know he is a phenominal player. That's not what im questioning.
I just dont dig the sound i guess. Its not the endless playing, because i can listen to ricci drone on for hours and hours. I think it's just that i can't really understand what's being played most of the time. Like with most players i can hear every note and imagine what's being played. I can actually visualuse it moving around on " my mental model" if you will. So perhaps (as Zab and other have pointed out. ) Im just not there yet. Idk.
Boris .... Im off to check out High Water. (Best Album Ever?!? .... We'll see about that. 8^) ... )
@Buzadero - Agreed about the birthday but you forgot me in this description list. I was born on exactly the same day in Windsor, Ontario Canada & Kim was born across the river in Detroit, Michigan. We're twin brothers of different mothers. LOL
In answer to Killa Hertz original question. In my opinion, I believe that Kim's outstanding differentiator is his ability to play his or anybody else's music with 'his' sense of timing. He does this with any other musicians; and still retains his signature tone created by his timing. Neither the amp nor the harp nor the other musicians ever seem to interfere with that distinctive sound character. The true measure is how he is 'always' in the soundstage with sound coming from his harp. No matter who he plays with, he is always driving the groove. He is so easily accompanied by other musicians of excellent calibre, that that has to be his strong suit. If, as a musician, you have played with terrific musicians; you know that they can be overwhelming. Just their presence on a stage is intimidating to another musician because you don't want 'your' skills to let them down. His skills allow everyone on the stage to feel the musical kinship and the opportunity to contribute equal amounts to the end result; the song being played. I understand your critique of a type of music (Chicago blues with it's unique break-up; crunch etc. of the harp sound on a tubed amplifier) but the question you posed was predicated by: For example when Rice Miller, Horton, Cotton comes on ..... you know it. Please let us know HOW? That may help you to define how 'You' know it is Kim Wilson playing & not them. I do hope this is useful.
Last Edited by Owen Evans on Aug 04, 2016 10:15 PM
Alright so maybe I understand the question now. I'll chime in again to check. How does one player in the Chicago style stand out from the rest? Is that what you're asking? How do you tell them apart? With Wilson, he stands out because he is so good. If it's extremely well executed and sophisticated playing in that style there's a good chance it's him. I dunno I can pick Billy Branch within a couple of seconds and I'm pretty good at calling Carey Bell. Wilson not so much, except like I said. If I'm listening and thinking "wow who is this, this is awesome, it's like little Walter but it isn't little Walter" it usually turns out to be Wilson. I'm enjoying Billy Branch's work a lot these days But I think Kingley answered the question pretty well about Wilson hey? And his first position stuff is deadset killer. I think that's pretty distinctive.
When you refer to "the same old generic stuff" are you talking about the harmonica parts played on the classic recordings. Our do you mean recordings by contemporary players? If it's the latter, then you need to realise that for many players alive today their biggest 'modern' influences are Kim Wilson and Rod Pizza. So what you're hearing in many cases is them imitating him. If it's the former however. If you listen to Cotton, the Walters, George Smith, Papa Lightfoot, both Sonny Boys, etc, etc. You'll hear immediately that Wilson is nothing like them. Admittedly their influence shows in his playing of course, but he has taken it to another level.
Owen Evans, you are clearly a blessed and genetically enlightened human.
And, while K-dub may have been born in Motor City and the regional air and water likely started the magic, he spent his formative high-school years as a Santa Barbarian area before migrating to Austin. A little upper Midwest, some California beach, and then Austin weirdness, all after being born under a bad sign may have just been the alchemy.
My first exposure was way back when at the old Ban-Dar in Ventura, Ca right down the road from Santa Barbara on 6January. Magic night with no more than two dozen people in the whole place. Fantastic memories.
---------- ~Buzadero Underwater Janitor, Patriot MBH poster since 11Nov2008
Watching Kim on stage is also another experience in groove. His whole body reflects this by the way he moves - especially during those times when he is not playing/singing. He is always in the present moment. ---------- The Iceman
The one thing that EVERYONE can learn from Kim is the fact that his time is ALWAYS dead on the money, and since his time is always good, everything he does GROOVES, which too often is the exact opposite on how a lot a harp players tend to operate. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
When I grow up, I want to be Kim Wilson. He is the complete package and a total genius. He has always grabbed my attention from day one. Lots of great input from others as to why.
I love what Kim does. Of course, I love blues from the masters - Little and Big Walter, Sonny Boy, etc. - so if all (sic) he were doing was a terrific job of copying those players, that would be wonderful to me. However, as others have pointed out, he does so much more. Plus, also as pointed out, he is a terrific performer, has marvelous tone and timing, is super hard working on stage (sweats through his suit in no time), gives the rest of the band space, and honors the song. As Mike said, I want to be him when I grow up - I'm only 65, so I have plenty of time.
Well said HarpNinja! Wilson is amazing. Musicians' musician.
So: "It's really hard to differentiate between players. For example when Rice Miller, Horton, Cotton comes on..."
I hope you were just generalizing here, Killa_Hertz. You picked three players with very distinct styles!
If you like acoustic harp check out the Big Jack Johnson album with Wilson on harp, The Memphis BBQ Sessions. All acoustic.
EDIT: Ok I think I just realized you wrote that you CAN tell the difference btw Horton and Rice Miller, et al. Just not Wilson and other modern traditional players?I misread that. *whew* Still, I think you need to listen more closely.
Last Edited by tomaxe on Aug 05, 2016 12:05 PM
Rgsccr, I'm 60 and hope for the best given the short amount of time left for this K.W. endeavor. I'd like not to have to change physically or mentally in any way shape or form.
Hah, hah! I beat the Captcha! Yay!!!!
---------- Have good day. M.A.P. .
Last Edited by MP on Aug 05, 2016 2:52 PM
I'm gonna weigh in late, stick my neck out, and partially agree with Killa- while still respecting the man (KW) and his command of the instrument.
In many ways he is the perfect amalgamation of all the electrified blues harp players that came before him - and THE exemplar of what a lot of blues harp players are trying to achieve. Perfection can be heard as a bit boring or generic to some of us however. When Killa says you can tell it's Sonny Boy from note one, - and can't nec. with Kim, I agree. If I didn't know the song, I I might at first think it's Dennis G, Rod Piazza, Rick Estrin or someone else. Maybe that's because I'm not as intimately familiar with all of those dudes as some of you are and are not picking up the subtleties. That could be.
As well for me, I don't hear the depth of soul that comes through from the original players who came up in the cotton fields and killing floors. Yes - I realize this can evolve / devolve into a "can white boys (or girls) can't play the blues" conversation. I think there is a difference between people who 'play the blues' and those who 'are the blues'. There are exceptions to the white and black assumptions here, - but to me they are still exceptions. I certainly am not one of them. I call myself a 'harp player' , not a 'blues harp' player consciously, - though I do play a lot of blues. OF course I poses no where near the mastery of the idiom that Kim Wilson or anyone else I mention above does. ---------- Bone's music videos
Last Edited by bonedog569 on Aug 05, 2016 4:11 PM
"Fraid your ' soul detector " done broke down B-dog" Love it. Thanks for the BBQ session link. That version of Bossman is really good. A nice sampling of his great acoustic playing. And yes ok - it's pretty soulful. Maybe his acoustic playing sounds less generic to my ear? Of course it doesn't hurt that he's partnering with Big Jack Johnson & Pinetop here. I'll be listening to more of this album for sure. Got it up on Spotify as I type.
Humming Blues @1:34 - The most beautiful, melodic and soulful harp work I've heard in a long time. I will be studying those lines and licks. (Then who'll be 'generic' ?)
Going much further with the 'what is soulful' is not likely to be very productive. It's a pretty darn personal and subjective area. I want to read Adam's paper before going there anyway. It's been on my 'B' list. It is nice to be pointed to other great music that other people think is 'the shit' though - like this album. ---------- Bone's music videos
Saw him at Sydney couple of years ago, yeah pretty good entertainer. No complaints, most watchers and so called followers who focus on his harp playing are missing the point, he's a band leader who plays blues harp better than most. Thumbs up Kimbo!!!
Bee that's what i was getting at. Glad someone actually understood what i was saying. I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining it.
Bonedog. Im glad I'm not the only one. I understand that Kim is an excellent player, but his sound is just too muddy for me to actually take in everything that he is doing. And thats why I say it all sounds generic. Especially when they are just comping. There are certain songs or parts of songs by Kim ( or piazza's, etc.) that really wow me, but for the most part it just sounds the same as any of the others. There doesnt seem to be a unique sound that any of them get. And thats what i really like in a player. As someone pointed out, all the players I listed in the OP have Very Unique sounds. Those are the players that really get to me. And maybe it has to do with my skill level, but i really like players like Rice or Horton that can do SO much with so few notes. Even Steve Guyger plays this way. Relatively uncomplicated for the most part, but just Killer Tone and skill. But again speed is not the issue with my lackof comprehension because I get Ricci and can hear what he is playing even though he is fast and dirty. I think it's just the muddyness and the fact that there doesnt seem to be a distinct sound difference between players of this style.
Maybe it boils down to my personal preference in the harp sound that I like. Perhaps the explaination "When you become a better musician, you become a better listener." explains it. Either way, it's lost on me. Maybe if they played a bit cleaner I would get more out of it. Most of the playing I do is acoustic and when I do play amped it is dirty, but nowhere near as muddy. So maybe it's because i don't play that way that i can hear it.
Either way it wasn't about kim specifically, for those of you who still dont get it. But im glad yall got to tell your Kim Wilson story's and let me know what an excellent guy he is. Can't tell you how much that helps me with my issue. ----------
From my observations of growing up learning in the flesh from many of the blues greats, pre cyberspace and mega channel TV, barely having enough money to buy a 45 record, and relying on the limited AM radio for much of music.... One had to really seek out a different sound than was available to the general public. Regional styles/sounds developed due to isolation. Today it all is available by clicking a mouse. I remember having to hitch hike around the country to find a style/sound. This created unique personas with readily identifiable sounds. Today, for me, it is pretty much a generic sounding mish mash of so many unique styles/sounds that most all harp players become unidentifiable to me. I rarely listen to any current music because the old stuff is so much more defined to my soul. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
@Killa Have you listened to this ? KW's solo @1:34 is very very sweet. Without the 'perfect' amplified sound reminding me of all those other players - I'm hearing some greatness here ---------- Bone's music videos
Walter ... I dig that. That's a pretty good explaination of where alot of the unique sound came from. And im right there with you on the old stuff.
I just like the way a harp sounds, that's why i play it. Ya kno? That muddy sound just kinda takes something away from it for me. When playing amplified i prefer it just dirt enough that the TB slaps and pulls really hit. But you can still hear the harp.
Bonedog ... Thats excellent. I see now that Goldbrick had posted a song from the same album. I must have glazed over it before. I'm definatly getting that one. There is just so much more expression you can get out of a harp played acoustically. I would really love to hear more of kim playing this way.
That song actually reminds me of Ronnie Shellist. He does alot of those reverse scoops? I guess you would call it. I'm sure that's were Ronnie got it from, he actually mentioned it in a lesson.
Slaphappy ... perhaps the same thing will happen to me, idk. ----------
Re-Bonedogs post. Some may be wondering, 'What is a Killing Floor'?
It is the floor of a slaughter house.
As an aside and off topic; Amish and Menonites have a dish made from the scrapings of their killing floors. It's called Scrapple and often eaten w/ eggs. That would give me the blues. :-)
---------- Have good day. M.A.P. .
Last Edited by MP on Aug 06, 2016 6:41 PM
Scrapple is amazing- Thats a traditional Philadelphia breakfast food. you fry is so the outside is nice and crisp ( kinda like sausage without the skin)
Back in the day we used to get that with a couple eggs,fried potatoes and coffee at the Horn and Hardarts on Market St, by Reading Terminal for a dollar
