@Killa: I understand what you are saying about the muddy sound...at the same time, to get wrapped around the axle about muddy sound is to miss the point about what makes Kim's playing special.
Kim Wilson is a GENIUS when it comes to rhythm and using rhythm in interesting and unexpected ways. I don't throw the "genius" word around much, but I really think it's appropriate in describing his creativity with rhythm. Most of the licks he plays are just standard licks...licks that many of us might even find boring, BUT he varies the rhythm to play those licks in ways that none of us would think of.
He also plays with the beat a lot. Listen for him to add urgency by playing just ahead of the beat or make a phrase sound big and pronounced by playing just behind the beat.
Also relative to the chord structure, he will sometimes jump to the V chord early (as much as probably 5 beats early), which creates the feeling that he's using the brute force of his will to drag the band along, following his lead.
Interesting. I 'don't get' the muddy sound reference at all. I do understand something by the term 'muddy sound', but it's not something I consider generic to using a bullet mic. dennis gruenling has a whole bunch of terms he uses to describe the tonal quality of mics he sells. Fat, warm, raspy, dirty, hot, thick, round, raunchy are the words he uses to describe the muddy sound of a bullet mic
It's that amped sound that attracted me to the harp. I've learnt to quite like the acoustic sound, and found out early on that in order to make a good amped sound, you need a good acoustic input. Better than that though is the 'Driven Acoustic' as Winslow calls it.
But first and foremost, it's that electric, amped sound that does it. It's a different instrument to me. If it's muddy, give me muddy every time.
I don't think the basic, unadorned sound of the harp is very satisfactory. You can say that's subjective but if everything thought it was then we wouldn't learn all these techniques for altering the sound.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Aug 08, 2016 5:11 AM
MP ... say what you will about me, But Lets Leave Scrapple Out of This! 8^)
I love Scrapple. I was surprised when i found out years ago that scrapple was only in my Tri state area. I feel bad for yall, your missing out. I get mine straight from the Amish. Soooo good. I don't care what's in it. Lol
Anyhow, yes that big jack album is fantastic. Thanks alot for bringing that one up.
Harpoon .... Thats very helpful. Perhaps (as brought up before) I just don't know what to listen for. But i don't think that's entirely true because I can hear everything your taking about in this acoustic jack Johnson album. Aswell as in Ludella when he's not playing so fast. But i think it's the combination of fast and muddy that loses me.
Mtg. I dont think all amped sounds are created equal. Some play similar, but slightly more clean, etc. It's not just the mic either, as you know, it's the amp, pedals, etc. And i like alerting the sound and playing with different pedals and such, but its just that really heavy dustorted "muddy" sound that makes all the players who use it sound the same to me. I prefer to be able to hear a little clearer what the harp is doing. And unlike you i was attracted to harp from listening to guys like sonny boy 2, and Horton. Amped harp like Jr. Wells is what i first listened to. And he had his own amped sound.
Idk, maybe it's just not for me. Or maybe next year I'll be spouting how great the muddy sound is. Who knows. But i did really enjoy hearing some of your opinions. ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Aug 08, 2016 5:37 AM
There's another thing I think but I'm having a hard time expressing it concisely, which may mean it's not true. But I was thinking about the role of the instrument. Oftentimes the harp is a part of the background, supporting the singer. Sometimes it's in keeping with the role for the harp to blend in, not to stand out. To sound like the harp, generic, not like the person playing it. Just like the guitars playing jimmy reed shuffle, you just need it to sound right. Like the bass, the drums, the keys, the horns...who cares who is playing those instruments, the spot is on the singer and the song. Sometimes. Other times, yeah sure the harp is a star turn and it's cool for it to stand out. I'm just firing up with a new band where I'm encouraged to play a lot, but it's not about solos. It's all about the songs and the groove. Sure there are solos and I sing so sometimes it's me and the harp in the spot but at least half the time I'm part of the wallpaper. I want my sound to fit in.
I can't remember his name but there was a harp player who died within the last couple of years whose passing received some attention here on MBH and who appears to have been the inspiration for KW's sound. I get the muddy observation, but KW is an absolute master of the aesthetics of that type of tone. He plays and solos with swag and has an original sound--listen to DOWN AT ANTONE'S. Who else plays like that? And his control of the instrument, intonation of bent notes, etc. is totally masterful. The cat is at the top of the food chain for what he does. Not necessarily a sound that's a personal favorite of mine, but he's so good at it, his objective mastery has to be acknowledged as well as his musicianship--drive, groove, all of that. Credit where credit is due.
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 08, 2016 8:34 AM
@SuperBee: this is a little OT, but yes, a lot of times playing the harp as just another one of the instruments in the band works beautifully. Most bands with harp are too harmonica centric for my taste--too much harmonica too much of the time. In this vein, I notice a lot of harp players who go to jams obsess about getting the band to play the tunes they want to do the way they want to do them. Nothing wrong with that, I guess, but perhaps more useful as a catylist for musical development is learning to fit harp effectively to whatever (within reason) the band is playng. My usual requirement is just tell me what key it's in. None of which has anything to do with Kim Wilson. I just wanted to endorse the validity of what you were saying. Solos work in either context assuming the player is a strong enough soloist and has adequate feel for when to stretch it out and when to keep it short and sweet .
Last Edited by hvyj on Aug 08, 2016 9:18 AM
Hvyj .... " Not necessarily a sound that's a personal favorite of mine, but he's so good at it, his objective mastery has to be acknowledged as well as his musicianship--drive, groove, all of that. Credit where credit is due."
I like that. Kindof ties it all together. I like that im not alone in feeling that this muddy sound is not the Holy Grail of what a harp player should be. Or what every harp player should sound like.
"Most bands with harp are too harmonica centric for my taste--too much harmonica too much of the time. "
I agree with this aswell. To some extent. Again Ill refer to Ronnie Shellist. If you listen to the Til Then Album, (most of the songs) he plays a little intro, a solo somewhere in the middle, then an ending lick. I think this is very tasteful. He really makes the most out of the notes he plays aswell.
But I can really hear and feel Kim now that I have this acoustic album. Im getting a new appreciation for him. I always new he was a good player. Again this thread wasn't really about him, but really about my inability to hear through the muddy sound. Hopefully someday i can get out of it what yall do, but for now it all just sounds the same.
I thought his work on the Little Walter movie was an excellent reproduction of that style. Personally I would rather listen to Butterfield. I saw him doing a radio show once and wasn't that impressed with his acoustic tone. His chromatic playing to me is very basic and seems to be in third position. I can appreciate the style of the blues in that way but it's still limited as far as the instrument. I'm sure most people disagree with me and will let me know as much LOL. ----------
@Killa_Hertz: The muddy distortion thing works for the most part only for certain styles of blues and to sound like that your equipment has to be set up specifically for that, all of which is ok as far as it goes. But it's limiting. If you play other styles of music with other musicians it doesn't fit. It's sorta like tongue pulls and slaps. Useful for second position blues but if you are playing say, Little Wing or Hesitation Blues in fifth position or Equinox or Afro Blue in fourth position neither the distortion thing nor tongue slaps are likely to work very well. To be candid, that's a problem I have with so much of the instructional material out there--it's style specific and position specific. Again, that's ok as far as it goes, but it's very narrow IMHO. I mean if that's the focus of a player's interest, great. But it does not equip you to function in a realistic range of musical contexts.
""Personally, I would rather listen to Butterfield." Me, too."
That's something...I'm not a fan of Butterfield's playing - this is something I confessed in the "Players You Don't Get" thread (or a thread with a similar title). But I'm a huge fan of Kim's playing. I wonder if there is some inverse correlation between liking Kim and liking Butter?
I've been revisiting Butterfield and I think I discovered why I rarely listened to him. On the albums I heard he is drowned out by a noisy band and the recording is sub par. This time around I'm focusing on his playing and tuning out the noise.
I just saw Jason Ricci this past weekend. I think he has the ability to utilize the amp, pedals and mic (a Shure 57) and create an overdriven sound, a sweet organ like sound, a heavy metal sound, etc. but the notes are quite clear and not muddy. He also had an acoustic piece that was so mellow and clear that it almost brought tears to my eyes and I got shivers (tough to do on a 90ยบ day). The man is a master of tone.
@hvyi: fair point about 'realistic range of musical contexts"
but its hardly surprising that people on this site would favour the overdriven blues sound; it is after all 'Modern Blues Harmonica', not 'Realistic range of musical contexts Harmonica' ---------- Lucky Lester
Joe_L has a valid point here also. Once you closely study a player's style and technique (Chicago amped players or clean amped or acoustic) and learn a bunch of his/her solos or instrumentals note-for-note, you will be able to recognize the player almost immediately - you will have no trouble differentiating. The differences may be subtle, but once you understand the subtleties and unique aspects of the player, they are easy to identify.
I liked Butterfield at first but once I started heavily listening to LW and BW I didn't really dig him that much anymore.
personally I'd rather listen to Kim. Butterfield's got some classic stuff and he broke some new ground but I always come back to the traditional stuff and find that that is what seems to nourish me.
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Though I've listened to his records for years, I finally witnessed in person Kim Wilson and the Fabulous Thunderbirds last night at the Blue Ocean Music Hall in Salisbury Massachusetts. Really a stupendous blues show. They wound up the audience slowly from the first song through the finale. Thunderous harp.
Tremendous band, especially Kevin Anker on piano and Hammond Organ. His magical, varied, and inventive fills were amazing, maybe even overtaking his masterful solos.
Like mentioned above in this thread, I was one of those harp players standing in the audience with my jaw on the floor. That's when my head wasn't held in my hands in glorious enjoyment.
Got to see the T-Birds a few years ago. Was lucky enough to chat with Kim for a while before the show and sat about ten feet in front of his amp for the whole gig. Learnt so much that night about playing harmonica, performance, band leading and much, much more. His talent live is truly amazing. He's worked hard at his craft and his dedication and love of the music, really shines through.
Here is another way of thinking about this. You're a harp player. Try doing what he does for as long as he's been doing it, then you'll know what makes him special.
..............what makes him so special? Quite frankly, probably nothing more or less than any other professional touring player. Bottom-line, if you like his (or any other players music) you listen to it. If you don't like his playing, you simply don't. As for me, I dig his music. On the other hand, if all his recordings disappeared off the face of Gods green earth tomorrow, I wouldn't even remember his name after a week. There are other artists that I would be miserable if that hypothetical scenario existed.
I like performance sports cars. Kim Wilson is like the Nissan GT-R of harp players. Very overrated and way too many "fan boys"
....my 1/2 cent ;)
Last Edited by CarlA on Aug 12, 2016 4:41 PM
I agree that if you study a player and learn their material note for note you definatly gain a much higher respect and understanding of them. And can spot their little subtleties.
I do like kim, but again this is more about the style of playing. The heavy distorted muddy sound. Again there are various stages and levels of distorted amped playing, but i was specifically talking about this style.
I was thinking about this yesterday and was curious how this thread would have went had i used Rod Piazzas name.
I really do like Piazza though. Some of the stuff he plays is a little "stiff white guy" but that's true with alot of players in my opinion.
I really love the Complete Blue Horizon Sessions of Bacon Fat w/ GHS. And the Harp Burn Album is pretty excellent.
I have noticed recently when comparing amped players more closely that players like Bob Corritore (not to put him down, just an observation) dont really stack up to the skills of Wilson or Piazza. ----------
I consider Kim Wilson to be the greatest living harmonica player in this realm of blues we are discussing here. For me it's all about the feel, the tone and his understanding of the harmonica tradition. I guess it's about context. When the Fabulous Thunderbirds' music appeared in the early 80's it certainly blew my mind, it was so authentic and fresh. They were the gold standard at that time. Today Mooncat is the foremost example of younger players who are mind-blowing with their technique and creativity. He is an amazing and unique player. Perhaps it's just apples and oranges. But for me Kim's consistency and excellence over such a long time count for a lot. Don't get me wrong, there are so many great blues players out there from Jason and Carlos, and the more traditional players like Rod Piazza and Sugar Blue and Portnoy. I love them all! But there is a good reason they had Kim play the Little Walter parts in the Cadillac Records movie. He has the feel and the gravitas. And he has continued to carry that tradition to this day. So I for one salute him, I love his playing!
I have seen the T-Birds in concert 4-5 times iin Tahoe in the early 90's when Duke and The Kid were in the band. I think that's when they were at their best after Jimmy.
Kim is a great 1st and 3rd position player as well as acoustic Delta style. Amazing tone when he plays in those styles. Problem is he is not very versitile or creative. Majority of what he's played was composed by someone else.
He is not in the same league as Rod and Charlie when it comes to creativity. No modern day harp player has created more intro's, hooks, instrumentals, and solo's than Rod and Charlie.
The truth hurts!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Jun 11, 2017 12:55 PM
I feel it goes beyond Kim's playing. It's the whole package...He is a blue collar blues guy, putting in a solid full day of work and expecting to get a full day's pay. If he likes the situation, he will even put in a full day of work and throw in an extra hour or two without wanting more money. I've seen him do this at shows, even ones that I produced myself.
I've seen him grumpy and complaining about being in Florida again(apparently he hates FL), but when fans come up to ask for autograph or picture op, he instantly puts the grump on hold, smiles a wide smile and welcomes them with open arms. A total pro.
Also, in the complete package is his body movements and groove momentum, which moves him on stage even when he isn't playing or singing at all. He is totally in the moment and seems to be genuine. ---------- The Iceman
"Majority of what he's played was composed by someone else." Really? This was singer/harmonica player Kim Wilson's first studio album in six years, Lookin' For Trouble is his second release for M.C. Records. His label debut, the 2001 live recording, Smokin' Joint, was nominated for a Grammy Award as Best Traditional Blues Album and also picked up four W.C. Handy Blues Award nominations.Kim Wilson is best known as a founding member of the influential American roots band The Fabulous Thunderbirds, a group he continues to lead for both recording and touring. Lookin' For Trouble features nine songs either written or co-written by Wilson, including two versions of the title song, one done as a blues shuffle and the second as a rock 'n' roll tune. In addition, Kim puts his unique stamp on five cover tracks: the Willie Dixon classic, Love My Baby, Dave Bartholomew's Hook Line and Sinker, Jimmy Rogers' Money Marble and Chalk, Snooky Pryor's Tried To Ruin Me and L.C. McKinley's Down With It. Throughout the CD, he displays a mastery of blues styles, ranging from Chicago and West Coast sounds to Memphis and New Orleans-infused blues.
