I wanted to compare the recorded tone on some of my OOTB Harps and have come to the conclusion that the tonal differences are not as pronounced as I would have thought. They sure feel different to play and of course playing live gives you a different aural perspective than listening to a recording. Furthermore, how and what it is recorded on can make a significant difference. I have done a little work on all the harps i.e gapping and light embossing so they are not strictly OOTB.
Anyway I thought I’d post these short sound samples for comparison and see if the differences are more obvious to you and whether you prefer one tone over another.
In the interests of comparing like with like, I have recorded one sample of 4 harps in Bb with the same riff and then the same exercise with 4 harps in C
Sample 1. Four harps in Bb
Harps played in the following order:-
1.Suzuki Promaster 2.Hohner Special 20 3.Suzuki Manji 4.Hohner Marine Band
Sample 2. Four Harps in C
Harps played in the following order:-
1.Hohner Golden Melody 2.Hohner Marine Band 3.Suzuki Harpmaster 4.Suzuki Promaster
EDIT TO ADD RECENT YOUTUBE VIDEO CONTAINING BOTH SAMPLES WITH PHOTOS OF THE HARPS BEING PLAYED.
yes-recorded there is little differece and even less noticible difference when played with a band.
I do some overdub electric guitar work on some recording sessions for other folks and even tho I use what I think is the right guitar for the type of music I am playing--i noticed I forget what I used when people ask me about it later ( so i keep notes)
You hear differences with a harp in your mouth quite differntly than what is recorded ( or projected to the audience)
Big thing is, the instrument in tune=people hear that for sure
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Feb 10, 2016 11:24 AM
Very cool idea, GreyOwl. While admittedly not huge, I definitely DID hear differences between all of them. I am a Special 20 guy, but in these clips, the Suzuki Promaster really stood out to me as having the fullest, most well-rounded tone. I liked it the best, followed by my old standby, the Spec 20. The rest were somewhere belowish those two, but mostly not by much. The Manji, however, sounded the thinnest of them all to my ears, and I didn't care for the tone much.
That all said, I found the differences between the Hohner models were not as pronounced as those between the Suzuki models, and the most pronounced differences were between Hohner and Suzuki.
What I learn from this is that there isn't a HUGE range of differences in the recorded tone, but there is certainly enough of a difference for me to feel that brand/model of harmonica is and should be an important part of your tone, especially if you play acoustically. What I wonder now is if I conducted this experiment (or any other player) with the same harmonicas, would the tonal differences remain, or be different? What I mean by that is that perhaps my playing style resonates more with a particular brand/model of harp, translating to that fuller tone that I personally prefer?
Thanks for your observations Isaac (and your thumbs up on the other thread btw). I also felt the Manji especially at the start of the clip didn’t do justice to the harp. What I would say is if I were to do this again sometime I wouldn’t play each harp successively but rather record the riffs individually on each harp having warmed up on each harp first then patch them together at the end. I say this because it was quite tricky changing from one harp to the other in sequence and struggling to get the playing feel straight off the bat. (and they are quite different as you know).
I think you have a good point about who’s playing them. Embouchure shape and playing comfort and style with each harp must come into it.
I thought the Marine band did have it’s distinctive sound but was a little less bright than I thought it might be.
I can’t even settle on my favourite harp. It seems to change from week to week. Just when I’ve written off the Golden Melody say, I pick it up one day and it sounds great. Also sometimes I want a really bright and brassy sound like the Manji (I played mine today and it sounded great) but at the moment I’m looking for a really mellow sound and my special 20’s and my harpmasters are closest to that sound.
The Suzuki Harpmaster is probably my favourite all round harp at present with it’s creamy slightly raspy tone, great playing comfort with recessed reed plates on plastic combs with rounded corners and cheap too. I haven’t bought a bad one yet.
Lastly the harps I used were of different ages not all bright and shiny OOTB.
This is just brilliant thank you. I listened several times, on a variety of headphones and speakers. I'm going to bookmark this thread for reference.
Off topic, but can I ask what type of vibrato you used in the C sample? I thought that sounded especially good.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 10, 2016 1:16 PM
I felt like the second sounded best both times. I think it's because you went from ET to Comprimise. I tried listening to them in a different order by skipping around. It made a difference. But i still found #2 the best both times. I didn't look at which models were which until after. Trying to give it the most honest opinion. But i think i could kinda tell anyways. I play almost all of these harps. The sounds are all preference anyways, but i figured ide give my 3 cents. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Thanks MindTheGap I'm pleased that was useful. I'm using throat vibrato on the C sample.
Thanks Killa. That was a good way to do it blind as sometimes our preference will influence our judgement but you seem to have found your favoured harp on tone alone.
I'll give a second listen with headphones later when I have a bit more time, but my initial response is I think maybe it's time to try me a Promaster. The GM would be my second choice out of this list for sound, but I don't like their feel on my lips (although perhaps I should spend more time cleaning them up). My set now is a mix of harps, but I have more L.O.s than any one other harp, followed by Sp20s.
Nate. The Promaster is a decent Harp. The plus points are it feels really good in the hands with a nice heft due to the aluminium comb and the solid full length covers. The tone is good, nice and bright but not full on like the Manji. I bought the valved version first but ended up removing all but the bottom 3 valves as the others were sticking occasionally and I couldn't get to grips with the blow valved bend technique. The valve on hole 1 is handy as you can blow bend down to B on a C harp which you cant do on a standard C harp.
My unvalved Promaster in Bb had a stiffish 3 draw which made bends a little bit more challenging and I was unable to fix it completely but is not bad now. What I had more of a problem with was the slight metallic tingle on the tongue (maybe the anodising got scratched)when tongue blocking.
With your Lee Oskars & Sp20's you seem to be leaning more towards the plastic combs like I am at present. I can highly recommend the Suzuki Harpmaster which is cheaper than the Promaster has a plastic comb with nice rounded corners and it has a nice creamy, crackly tone. I have played mine a lot and have it gapped tight for OB's so it may not have sounded quite as punchy as some of the others.
I've owned all those harps and the tone in your samples are spot on. The Manji is obvious the brightest and to me the purest.For chords I always like the Hohners and not just because of the tuning. I would not say the Manji was thin. It is more horn like to me. The promaster was less bright then the Manji for sure.
Play with a backing track through an amp would be interesting.
528hemi
Last Edited by 528hemi on Feb 11, 2016 1:33 PM
That's a very cool head to head comparison, Grey Owl. Very nice playing, too. It was enjoyable listening as well as it was informing.
It pretty much confirms the results of the two SPAH blind comparisons. Bigger difference to the player than to the listener.
I also think Promasters are great harps. I have a full set that I've half-valved. PT style valves work a lot better than the stock Suzuki ones. But I can't play 'em tongue blocked, which really hampers my blues playing style. I get a strong and unpleasant Galvanic reaction between the (poorly) anodized comb and the reed plates. For whatever reason I do not get that kind of reaction from, for example, Seydel anodized aluminum combs.
Some of the examples showed a more articulate attack than others. I wonder if you might comment on that, Owl?
But the thing that stood out strongest for my ears was the delicious chords that emanated from the Marine Band. I don't know what Hohner does. Maybe it's their brass alloy composition. Maybe its their tuning scheme. I don't think its their combs because that's been ruled out to my satisfaction by the SPAH experiments. But there is nothing that sounds so sweet to my ears as those chords on a Marine Band harmonica.
Neither Suzuki or Seydel has managed to duplicate it. Even my beloved Special 20s, which use identical reeds, cannot produce such mellifluous chords.
I don't think even Hohner knows, and I think they strive for it, or all their harmonicas would sound like the venerable Marine Band.
Thanks again, Grey Owl.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Feb 12, 2016 4:46 AM
I’m with you regarding the Promasters. As soon as I lay my tongue on the harp I get the Galvanic tingle which is irritating. The relatively hard metal tines on the comb are not conducive to TB which I’m starting to use more now. So I don’t think I’ll be buying any more of the these harps, which is a shame because I like the tone a lot and the heft of the well built harp which does feel good in the hands.
The difference in articulation in attack could be due to me playing the harps consecutively. It’s surprising how different they feel from going straight from one harp to another and having to adjust on the fly.
If you like Sp20’s I would recommend trying the Suzuki Harpmaster (if you haven’t already.) It’s very similar in playing style to the Sp20 but with a slightly better tone to my ears. They’ve also rounded the corners off at the ends of the comb which is more comfortable. I have 4 of them and they’ve all been good (perhaps I was lucky) but like all harps, as you say they will benefit from some gapping to suit your needs. They are a pretty reasonable price BTW.
Goldbrick I have one Hammond and I also don't get my tongue electrocuted! In fact it was a very good harp OOTB and OB's were all there. It does have a darker, warmer tone than the Promaster and is a decent harp. If I went for a metal comb again I would go for the Hammonds. I haven't played it for a while and have just taken out of the box for a spell. Very Nice!
This doesn't really add anything, in fact the compression on youtube probably makes the difference in tone a little harder to hear but I have added pretty photos ;)
I think often that the difference in tone is more discernible whilst playing ie it's what we hear. I have favourite harps for playing different styles ie same keys but to my ear a better fit.
As an example I have 6 D harps. At the top ie best sounding & beautiful harp is my Seydel 1847 Beta custom. At the other end is my Lee Oskar which is loud (sounds loud to me) and I use it playing bluegrass with other musicians ie it enables me to better hear myself and cut through.The Lee Oskar seems oblivious to abuse. But if I play a fast tune like Whiskey Before Breakfast my preference is to use a Golden Melody ie the mouth feel enables me to move comfortably quickly & accurately between notes.
So for me one set of one brand and one model of harps doesn't fill the bill. But I have given up searching for the holy grail of harps and am starting to understand that it's really up to me. ---------- HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
ME.HarpDoc. Yes. I hadn't thought of that. They could well be the culprit. Any rich folk got all gold fillings and are immune?
I hadn't realised the variety of metal contained in a filling.
'Most people recognize dental amalgams as silver fillings. Dental amalgam is a mixture of mercury, silver, tin and copper. Mercury, which makes up about 50 percent of the compound, is used to bind the metals together and to provide a strong, hard, durable filling.
Aussie.
Yes I know what you mean. I think the Holy Grail of Harps probably doesn't exist. I like all the harps I've bought in recent years in one way or another. If I play Blues I like a different tuning than if I play melodies. On some occasions I like a bright loud harp and other times I like a soft mellow sound. Playing comfort is not so much of a variable as I prefer recessed plates in plastic combs. My metal harps feel good to hold and and have nice tone but comb comfort and galvanic reaction are the down side. My Seydels are good if not feeling a bit larger in the mouth and the hole spacing is wider but I could probably get used to this if I played them exclusively.
I have at least one of all the harps tested.I have to agree with michelle about marine band 1896.I have many that are pre war,some custom mbs and some new old stock.Im convinced its the just intonation that makes them such a great tone and much richer sound.I realize ET tuned harps like golden melody serve a good purpose but for playing second or third position marine band is king
Bingo. ME.HarpDoc! I have a mouth full of silver amalgam fillings. Never even thought of that.
Intrestingly enough, As I said, I have a Seydel harp with an Aluminum comb and I don't detect any Galvanic reaction. Tom's Blue Moon anodize Aluminum combs are reportedly not plagued by the problem I have with my Suzuki Promasters.
Thanks,
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
