Ozblues66
1 post
Sep 14, 2015
7:26 PM
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Hi guys, first post ever from down under. Might be a bit behind the times in oz, but why did hohner change their sp20. They have lost that trad hohner sound. Not impressed, may as well go back to lee oskers.
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florida-trader
776 posts
Sep 14, 2015
7:48 PM
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Hey Oz - welcome to the forum. I have a quick question for you. If you take off the covers on your new SP20, are the reed plates fastened with M2.0 or M1.6 screws? The M1.6 screws are the same screws Hohner uses on the Marine Bands, Golden Melodys and the MS-Series Harps.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Ozblues66
2 posts
Sep 14, 2015
8:04 PM
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G´day florida, my new sp20 prog. has M2.0 screws, same as all my old sp20s.
Last Edited by Ozblues66 on Sep 14, 2015 8:04 PM
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florida-trader
777 posts
Sep 14, 2015
8:36 PM
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Oz - if the reed plates have the M2.0 screws then they are the same reed plates as your old SP20's. Hohner has continued to use the old SP20 reed plates until they have run out of them. I have built about 100 Special 20's in the past 8 or 9 months. About 80% of them are the new Progressive Special 20 but about half of those still have the old M2.0 reed plates. The new reed plates have the M1.6 screws. Hohner has converted all their screws to M1.6 on the diatonic harps (except the MB1896 which is still nailed).
So the only thing different about your new Progressive Special 20 is the covers. Why do suppose it sounds so different?
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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nacoran
8688 posts
Sep 14, 2015
8:36 PM
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According to Hohner the only difference is the standardized screws and new graphics on the cover, which shouldn't change the sound.
It could be you just got a dud. I haven't got one of the new ones yet, but everything coming out of Hohner I've heard is that they are the same harp. All the stuff that effects the sound- cover shape, reeds/temperament, should be the same. They just wanted to move the categories around for marketing purposes.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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Ozblues66
3 posts
Sep 14, 2015
9:42 PM
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Ok thanks guys. Prob just a dud. Coz not in my head, definitely sounds wrong compared to my other sp20s and marine bands. Never tried retuning harps, just buy new ones. So i'll try again. Thanks again.
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newplayer
4 posts
Sep 15, 2015
3:43 AM
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Hey man. I think you are absolutely correct about the new progressive special 20 sounding different. I feel the same way. I love the classic marine band special 20 but the new model. ..well, let's say that it just sounds different if not unpleasant to my ears.
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newplayer
5 posts
Sep 15, 2015
3:48 AM
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Also, used to play my special 20 right out of the box. But now I need to gap almost every one of them.
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florida-trader
778 posts
Sep 15, 2015
4:18 AM
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I came out with the CNC Milled Blue Moon Special 20 Combs about 9 months ago. Since then I have purchased about 100 Special 20’s - about half of which I ordered as part of the 3-harp or 5-harp Pro-Packs. In virtually every Pro-Pack, even though all the harps had the same Progressive style covers, some of the harps were built with the older plates, which use the M2.0, and some were built with the newer plates, which use the M1.6 screws. I have also purchased 50 or so individual Special 20’s. There were a few New Old Stock mixed in but the majority, especially recently, are the new Progressive Model. Once again, about half of the Progressive Model Special 20’s still have the older plates using the M2.0 screws.
Assuming that Hohner has at least a shred of integrity (which I do), if indeed the Progressive Special 20 is a completely new harp – as in totally redesigned, not just the covers, but the reed plates as well – how could they possibly put old M2.0 reed plates under the hood of a set of Progressive covers and still call it a Progressive Special 20? In addition, Hohner has never made any claim to the affect that they changed the Special 20 reed plates in any way. Why would they? The Special 20 is their most popular diatonic harmonica? I am not a Hohner apologist, but the facts are the facts. The only thing different about the old Special 20 reed plates and the Progressive Special 20 reed plates is the size of the screws which fasten them to the comb. Any difference in the sound is either coincidental or imagined.
And oh, by the way, The Rocket uses the same reed plates as the Progressive. They might get a little more attention at the factory, but the bones are the same. Hohner has a long history of taking a good solid chassis (reed plates and comb) and dressing it up with new covers. They have come out with hundreds of different harps over the years using the Marine Band chassis. The pre-MS Blues Harp was a Marine Band with different covers. The Hoosier Boy was a Marine Band with different covers. Every Anniversary Model, Special Edition, Limited Edition, etc. etc. they came out with over the years had the same chassis as the Marine Band but with different covers. It is brilliant marketing. The Rocket is a Special 20 with a different comb and vented covers with the screw holes toward the front of the harp instead of the middle. It’s like going to buy a new car and choosing between the Camry and the Camry LE (Luxury Edition). Underneath the hood, they are both a Camrys.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 15, 2015 4:20 AM
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SuperBee
2803 posts
Sep 15, 2015
4:21 AM
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Maybe they're winding us up Tom.??
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florida-trader
779 posts
Sep 15, 2015
4:35 AM
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SuperBee - it could be some vast conspiracy. Could be. But somehow I doubt that Hohner would take their most popular harmonica, change the guts, not tell anybody about it, then fool everyone by slipping the last of their huge inventory of M2.0 reed plates into a supposedly new model. And then on top of that, publicly state that nothing has changed other than the covers.
To me, it is more likely that a few people started a rumor on some internet forum or Facebook that has gained some traction. It makes no difference to me whether they changed the reed plates or not. They are what they are. If someone does not like the Progressive Special 20 there are other options. But I'm just letting everyone know what I have found with a pretty fair sized sampling. As one who has built a lot of Special 20's in the recent months, I've seen more than most. In addition, I have had nothing but positive feedback from my customers. If I saw a pattern of some being happy and some not I would be compelled to investigate whether the M2.0 or M1.6 plates are the culprit. But I have not had any reason to worry about this as regardless of which reed plates happen to be in a given harp, everyone is happy.
I do feel slightly motivated to do my part to squash this rumor. As a harp builder, I would rather not have to deal with the potential issue of having a customer specify that they want one set of plates vs. the other. I would rather eliminate that potential headache before it ever begins.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 15, 2015 4:36 AM
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SuperBee
2804 posts
Sep 15, 2015
4:41 AM
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No, I mean the posters in this thread may be winding us up. This story of different-sounding sp20s has been doing the rounds, but there are just as many folk say there is no difference. We know the reason some people get widely gapped sp20s, and marine bands for that matter...but this other 'they're different' tale ... I think it's a wind up. I've not seen anything like the numbers you have, but those I've seen for repairs have been indistinguishable from old stock sp20.
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SuperBee
2805 posts
Sep 15, 2015
4:43 AM
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I repair many hohner harps, and as you know, all the handmades use the same reeds. The only possible change would be tuning, and it hasn't changed.
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Rontana
179 posts
Sep 15, 2015
4:56 AM
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@Tom
I've no doubt they're the same harp (save for the different sized screw holes and graphics) but having never purchased the Progressive version, perhaps you can answer a question.
Can I replace the top/bottom covers on the Progressive with my old SP 20 Marine Brand covers? Are those interchangeable? Are those screws the same size/design. Thing is, I like the look of the older covers; the new ones leave me cold.
I know I could always buy new reed plates, and a bag of M1.6 screws, and put them on my older SP 20, but that gets pricey fast (the reason for the question is I anticipate having to retire a couple of my older harps in the near future)
Thanks for any info
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Marr's Guitars
Cigar Box Guitars and Other Unusual Unstruments
Last Edited by Rontana on Sep 15, 2015 5:00 AM
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florida-trader
781 posts
Sep 15, 2015
5:01 AM
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Rontana - the covers are interchangeable. Same screws. Holes are in the same location. Hohner was selling out their sock of old Special 20 covers a while back for only $5.00 each. It was a good deal. I think they are all gone now though. But there are tons of Special 20's floating around. There is no doubt that many of the parts will be recycled at some point in the future.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Rontana
180 posts
Sep 15, 2015
5:04 AM
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Thanks Tom . . . good to know.
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Marr's Guitars
Cigar Box Guitars and Other Unusual Unstruments
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Ozblues66
4 posts
Sep 15, 2015
6:47 AM
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I didn't join to start rumours, just wanted some feed back about this harp. I do remember the box it came in, and on the back was a chart which put the sp20 prog. in the same category as the golden melody.(good for single note playing),while they class marine bands good for classic blues and chords. And no where on the sp20 progressive are the words Marine band. And it does sound just like my Lee Oskar in the same key. Thought someone might know why.
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florida-trader
783 posts
Sep 15, 2015
7:23 AM
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Hey Oz. We all know that you did not come on to this forum to start rumors. If anything, in my opinion, you are a victim of the rumors that were started by others. Sometimes rumors have a way of creeping into our thoughts and we start finding evidence to support them when in truth there isn't any. It is just the power of suggestion. There's a lot of misinformation being put out there. It is an example of the double edged sword that is the internet. Anybody can post anything.
I think that it is great that you found this forum. We are by no means perfect but I think you will find that the people who frequent this forum are pretty well informed. I frequently see posts on Facebook in which someone asks a basic question that just about anybody on MBH can answer. And that's because of the excellent information available here.
Welcome.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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chromaticblues
1704 posts
Sep 15, 2015
10:00 AM
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@ Florida Tom since you have done so many SP20's have you noticed that they stated gapping there harps higher around the same time this change took place? I have only bought about 6 or so and traded for one and they all were gapped real wide.
Is that part of what makes them progressive or have I just been buying harps made at 3:00 on Friday afternoon (lol)?
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Gnarly
1467 posts
Sep 15, 2015
10:29 AM
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Seems to me I did some repairs on SP20s with the new cover plates and didn't notice any difference in the harp.
Still had a broken 5 draw LOL
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florida-trader
784 posts
Sep 15, 2015
10:31 AM
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Ya know, Kevin. I really don’t know the answer to that question about the gaps. I could pay more attention moving forward and get back to you on that. Strangely enough, I don’t even bother to play the harps OOTB. Maybe every once in a while. Since my business is so centered around my custom combs, virtually every Special 20 I build is disassembled, a custom comb is installed and the gaps are adjusted. Generally speaking, the gaps are wider than I prefer.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Meaux Jeaux
100 posts
Sep 15, 2015
12:46 PM
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Guys,
My thinking on the gaps being wider is due to the "Rocket". The name Rocket seems to imply to me the harmonica is designed to be marketed to the rock player, hence the player is going to hit them harder, so the gaps are opened to prolong the life of the harp.
I too have noticed wide gaps in the Rocket that I purchased, but it took work just like every other Hohner I've worked on, and now plays like a ton.
@Tom, Think........Turquoise!
Meaux
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SuperBee
2806 posts
Sep 15, 2015
1:42 PM
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Yep, they definitely changed the gaps. Steve Baker explained this at some point, also that they changed them again when they realised they'd gone too far. And that it will take a while for those to filter through the supply chain.
As for brass...well, you know, I recently put s brass reed in an otherwise steel harp...I can't hear a difference, so I'm really wondering how much difference there could be between one type of brass alloy and another. Or made I just can't hear that well. I don't believe the reed makes much sound..,sound is made by the air...but maybe someone can educate me about it
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A440
431 posts
Sep 15, 2015
2:03 PM
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They sound and play identical, in my opinion. The only difference is that Hohner seems to be shipping them now with bigger gaps. Once you adjust the gaps, it plays just like the classic version. I have spent many hours going back and forth between my 2012 SP20, and my 2015 SP20 Progressive, both in C. Same harp, just different screws and cover graphics. In a blind test, I cannot tell the difference.
Last Edited by A440 on Sep 15, 2015 2:03 PM
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barbequebob
3025 posts
Sep 16, 2015
10:22 AM
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From what I understand, the Rocket reed plates were gapped larger because they were specifically aimed at players who use a lot of breath force in their playing to help prevent quick blow out, but the higher gaps, when played soft, will make the reed choke or blank out when played that way and it can be also tough for players who use the overblow technique.
Gap setting is going to be very different from player to player based on their style and techniques and playing needs and what's right for one is wrong for the other.
At least the Sp20's still use reed plates held together with screws because when they were originally introduced in 1974, the very same year that the Golden Melody was introduced, they were held together with escutcheon pins (basically thick, brass nails) which were a royal pain in the butt to deal with until they began using screws sometime in the mid 80's.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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1847
2754 posts
Sep 16, 2015
5:34 PM
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the last special 20 i bought did not say hohner on the back. why is that?
the last hohner i bought 2 or 3 tears ago
was a crossover it says hohner on the back why is that?
not even going to fix the typo, two or three tears about says it all lol
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SuperBee
2809 posts
Sep 16, 2015
7:33 PM
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'Defino, Bob. Doesn't seem likely to change the sound though.
I guess you think there is a broader implication?
Put it this way...if I was gonna try building a fake, I'd include the signature. If I was worried that including the signature would get me busted...maybe not.
If you are buying fake harps...maybe find another supplier.
Hohner have very explicitly stated they are still building the harps in the German plant...I'm gonna go buy one right now at LMS. Just deciding which key...maybe an F...or an Eb...maybe an F and a C...
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1847
2755 posts
Sep 16, 2015
8:39 PM
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I recently put s brass reed in an otherwise steel harp...I can't hear a difference, so I'm really wondering how much difference there could be between one type of brass alloy and another.
you make a good point here. perhaps it makes no difference?
at the same time, quite possibly no one on the forum would say that a suzuki sounds the same as a hohner, or a hohner sounds the same as a lee oskar. john q public might say they all sound like a harmonica. but we can hear the difference in timbre.
if it is not the comb or not the alloy making the sound, just the "air" .....what creates character ?
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SuperBee
2810 posts
Sep 16, 2015
8:49 PM
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would you believe a Bb and a Db?
sad to say they both appear to be 2mm, so not the newest of the new...but many of the complaints ive read have featured the 2mm-thread plates, so thats ok...
they both seem to be reasonably tuned...
the Bb plays pretty well at the high end, tongue blocked blow bends all there reliably
the 1 and 2 draw feel airy, and the 2 and 3 draw bends are somewhat harder work than i'm used to. might need some shaping but i expect a quick gap job will have it playing substantially better. i wouldn't necessarily want to play this harp as it is at a gig, but i could do it.
The Db...well much the same really. i'd want to take a look at the gaps but otherwise it seems just like i'd expect a special 20 to be...
oh yeah, they both have M.Hohner written on the draw plate cover.
the only thing i really really don't like is that the stung me for $60 each...never mind; i'll do a little work on them and see if i can resell
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1847
2756 posts
Sep 16, 2015
9:14 PM
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Could it be possible the the special 20 shares the same comb as it’s other counter parts?
Blues band
Fuego Azul
Hohner Hot Metal
Johnson
Piedmont Blues Harmonicas
And others of that ilk?
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SuperBee
2811 posts
Sep 16, 2015
9:14 PM
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i reckon i can definitely pick the acoustic sound of a Seydel 1847 from a marine band...
i thought maybe it was the reed material.
but i repaired the 4 blow of a BigSix with a brass reed taken from a Low Eb...the 6 draw...the Big6 is like holes 3-8 of a standard Seydel diatonic...so you need a 6 slot reed to replace the 4 slot of a BigSix...
the only reed i had was brass...i tried it anyway, though i thought it was likely it would sound and feel different to play. i was very surprised that it blended right in....BronzeWailer may be able to comment though, as it is his harp...i could not pick that the reed was not original, but BW has spent more time with it and may have a different opinion. it could be my tin ear
but assuming i can trust my ear...as i did...i began to wonder why the Seydel has the distinctive sound...and i thought..
the reed plates are 3 thou' thicker than a marine band. the slots are a different dimension. the space under the covers is a different size. the chambers are larger. so that could be enough to make a different wave form? and you know, the LO harps have their own dimensions etc...and then there is tuning...maybe the reed material also plays a part, but its not the whole story, and i think not even the big part of the story.
but even there...see i reckon the crossovers sound different to a standard marine band...and i have this harp Joe built me...a G harp...its basically a marine band but corian comb made by Tom, and Thunderbird covers, and Joe's reedwork and tuning...and ive been using it to play this low end 1st position tune Dave Barrett wrote. i also sometimes play this tune on a harp MP built for me which is a standard Marine Band (dated 2007) with a blue corian comb made by Matthew Smart. this is closer to a standard marine band, but Mark definitely gave it some attention beyond replacing the old swelled comb. These harps do not sound the same. the one Mark built sounds like a sweet smooth horn on the low end, very mellow 1st and second chamber reeds especially. the one Joe built is more brash/raspy sounding, similar to how i find the crossover to sound...Joe has done more work on this harp than has been done on the other, which could make a difference i guess...maybe the tolerances are tighter...what i'm saying is that even where everything seems much the same, there are still differences and i really don't know enough to say what its down to...but i wonder how much difference the fit of reed to slot makes...
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SuperBee
2812 posts
Sep 16, 2015
9:22 PM
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i dunno about the comb Bob...i think the Sp20 comb works pretty good...better than teh big river for instance...and better than the seydel seesion comb...but just mho
could be though...i just dunno...i'll see what i think of this pair after i have a crack at gapping them and see what the reed shape is like...
i mean...Joe and Andrew et al are still building customs based on sp20 and retaining the stock comb i think...but maybe i'm wrong about that...
personally i think a sp20 built on a solid comb can be a superior harp to one on the stck comb, but again, personal preference/prejudice perhaps
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SuperBee
2813 posts
Sep 17, 2015
4:35 AM
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I dismantled these guys. As expected the Bb was gapped wide, especially on the blow reeds. And especially 1 and 2. The reed shape is pretty good though. I'm confident this will play well once I shut those reed gaps. The low octave blow reeds are set so high, I'm gonna lower them by half for starters. Maybe I'll even leave the draw reeds where they are at first, I'm so sure just lowering those draw reeds will have a dramatic effect. Even lowering them by half, they'll still be plenty wide.
The Db is very similar story, but it's the 3 and 5 blow that stand out. Again, the actual entry of reed into slot seems likely ok.
Before I adjust them though, I'm gonna dig out some other old-style sp20s and set them up similar.
I noticed the plates of these new harps aren't set up for use in Rockets; only the single cover plate bolt hole at each end. But...as mentioned above, lots of the complaints I've read have concerned these new cover/old plate prog 20s.
I haven't been able to find it, but I'm sure I read a statement from someone at Hohner...maybe Steve Baker...about the gapping. My recollection is that they said they'd changed the gaps in response to customer feedback, but had changed them back fairly soon after...but of course there are a bunch of wider-gapped harps in the supply chain and will take a while for them to filter through...
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florida-trader
786 posts
Sep 17, 2015
4:54 AM
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There are a number of variables that will affect how harmonicas sound. Here’s an analogy for you. If you gave 10 cooks each a nice juicy steak and a full arsenal of spices and had them cook said steaks, you might very well wind up with 10 steaks that taste very different. It all depends on how they are cooked (rare, medium, well done), which spices are used and how much of each.
Here is a quick list of the variables we deal with when building a harmonica.
Gapping. If the gaps are too wide it takes too much air to get the reeds moving. Too narrow and the reeds will choke when you attempt to play loud. You want to adjust the gaps so the reeds respond to light breath but don’t choke when you get excited. To further complicate the matter, different players have different optimal gaps. An overblow/overdraw player clearly needs his gaps set tighter than one who does not.
Airtightness. Airtight harps are more responsive than harps that aren’t. Is the reed plate warped or bent? Is the comb not flat? Either or both will affect the way the harp sounds.
Reed Shape. The shape of the reed will certainly affect the way it responds to your breath.
Tolerances – the space between the reed and the reed slot. How close are the tolerances? Embossing is a common practice to tighten reduce the space. Too much space = a less responsive harp.
Tuning/Temperament. Every harp has its own unique temperament. Marine Band 1896’s are tuned differently than Crossovers are tuned differently than MS-Series are tuned differently than Golden Melodys. Suzukis are tuned differently than Hohners (although pretty close to Crossovers) and Seydels have their own temperament. Could it be that one harp sounds better to you that another simply because you prefer one temperament over another? Is your harp even in tune regardless of which temperament it is supposed to be tuned to?
And let us not forget the biggest variable – the Player. Every player has their own unique embouchure, attack, size and shape of their oral cavity, do they tongue block or lip purse, etc. etc. Two different players playing the same harp will get a very different sound. Additionally, harp players evolve. I can remember the first time I played a custom harp. I couldn’t play it. I thought it was awful. It was so tight. I put it aside for six months. Then one day I pulled it out and it played wonderfully. What had changed? The harp or me? Clearly it was me. I had evolved and my attack had changed.
Some of these variables are a function of how the harps are built at the factory – Hohner, Seydel or Suzuki. Some are a function of what we do the harps. When we start taking them apart and tinkering with the comb and reed plates we are influencing these variables. If you know what you are doing, you will make the harp play better. If you don’t know what you are doing, there’s a good chance you will make it play worse and you’ll wonder why you didn’t leave well enough alone.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 17, 2015 4:56 AM
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Gnarly
1471 posts
Sep 17, 2015
8:17 AM
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I look at it like the switcheroo on that grocery/cooking show with Guy Fieri--taking ingredients for a meal someone else was planning on cooking!
Tom wrote:
When we start taking them apart and tinkering with the comb and reed plates we are influencing these variables. If you know what you are doing, you will make the harp play better. If you don’t know what you are doing, there’s a good chance you will make it play worse and you’ll wonder why you didn’t leave well enough alone.
Gnarly sez:
Practice tech skills on harmonicas which have been retired--an old Special 20 is a good choice, that's what I was playing and first worked on. First gapping, then more, depending on what appeals to you.
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MP
3310 posts
Sep 18, 2015
3:31 PM
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Howzit Bee! I remember that Corian MB because right after i drilled for screws i was cleaning my work area. i elbowed the beautiful comb, it fell 3' onto a piece of plastic, and broke in four pieces. I called Smart and he sent me another comb to start from square one again. :-)
Anyway, I'd be surprised at any similarity between my build and Spiers. He does every single thing differently than I do and a lot of things he does i do not see. Also, he's been at this forever.
I burnish lightly so my tolerances aren't very tight and don't change the MB tone too much. My gaps are a bit higher, and anything lower than 6 OB will require more control than a Spiers.
My main concern is that the harp responds to very soft or hard breath force. This means instant 1/2 step bends on draw 3 and two 1/2 steps on blow 10.
I like the cooking steaks analogy.
I admit- I can't tell a Marine Band from a Manji or a Lee Oskar or a Seydel if i hear a player at a gig. Even acoustic playing. I think we make too big of a deal over tone when it comes to brand names. Even I do. I only play Hohner. :-)
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I'm out of the Biz for a while till I get over my burnout. You can try HarveyHarp or arzajac, or just look the page nacoran put together under Forum Search.
.
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SuperBee
2820 posts
Sep 18, 2015
6:01 PM
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Hey MP! I knew you'd not forget that blue comb...
Thinking about differences between instruments, which is pretty much what this thread is about...I'm considering all the G harps I have...the one you built, the JS, a crossover I use a lot, another marine band I built up from the stock item, a sp20 or 2...
Each of those has a slightly different character...there are many things can vary on a harp, even between 2 of the same model and key...
So hohner made a change to the sp20....in the most superficial way...and suddenly these stories about how they changed the recipe emerge. I really do think there has always been variation between harps but now when a person buys a sp20 labelled 'progressive' and it is a bit different to the sp20 they had before, they think it's because hohner changed the recipe...
I am gonna go find my old Bb sp20 and see how it plays..,it's actually one I bought off a guy who was complaining about sp20s being no good anymore so he sold his old kit and replaced with another brand...so I'm pretty sure it could use some attention anyway..,
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nacoran
8705 posts
Sep 18, 2015
6:19 PM
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MP, I had a similar experience with a Chris Reynolds comb! It broke my heart. I also had a clear acrylic comb split sitting in a drawer. I think one thing I've learned is that a harp is much sturdier when it's together. Unless you have a padded box to keep spare parts in it's worth screwing something back together, at least loosely, if it's not currently being worked on.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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MP
3311 posts
Sep 18, 2015
7:14 PM
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Nate, Heartbreaking is a good way to put it. Bee had chosen the handsomest blue corian I'd ever seen. I felt sick when it shattered less than a minute after I had painstakingly drilled it for screws by hand. No electricity involved.
Nate, as far as a harp being sturdier when assembled I've found a couple of occasions where assembled corian combed harmonicas crack when dropped. They always crack at the same place, the weakest point- the low end three slot where the screw goes in. There isn't much area right there.
As a result, I own no corian combed harps.
So Nate, it's not just me. So far I count 5 assembled corian harps that broke when dropped.
But back to differences. I've had three [A] Richard Sleigh harps put in front of me and each was slightly different. A friend owned them and asked me to pick the best sounding harp of the three and change two notes to make it a Maj7th. Indeed, one harp was just better than the other two.
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I'm out of the Biz for a while till I get over my burnout. You can try HarveyHarp or arzajac, or just look the page nacoran put together under Forum Search.
.
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SuperBee
2822 posts
Sep 19, 2015
6:22 AM
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I found that 'old' sp20 Bb. I think the Bb is a good key to compare because it probably didn't get a lot of work from the previous owner.
i disassembled it, saw it was clean and no signs of interference. No tell-tale plinking scratches or non-factory tuning marks. And it seems to be reasonably well-tuned.
Comparing the gaps, it looks more closely gapped than the brand new 'Progressive'. I'd adjust a few reeds but it looks like it should play ok.
I put it back together and played it.
Despite the closer gaps, it was actually somewhat 'breathier' to play than the wide gapped Progressive. And definitely not as loud. I took it apart again and inspected the reed action. Almost every reed dives into to slot nose-first. The progressive isn't like that. The reeds in the progressive may be set high, but they enter the slot fairly-well flat.
Aside from that, both these harps are within the range I've found to be normal for Sp20. If I was servicing this older one for a customer, I'm confident I could send them back a harp which performs much better than it currently does. And I'm also confident I will make this new Progressive sp20 play as well as any I've ever had. The older one will take more work as I'll have to reshape the reeds and retune the harp, whereas I really think the new one just needs a few minutes with a toothpick.
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dougharps
1017 posts
Sep 21, 2015
2:06 PM
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I received my first SP20 Progressive today, key of A. I took off the covers and checked it. It was gapped pretty wide, particularly the blow reeds. I spent 5 minutes adjusting gaps, got 4, 5, 6 OBs, all notes played fine, sounded good.
I think they just gap wide for the beginner to avoid complaints of notes not playing. It makes sense, too, because anyone who cares about tighter gaps and overbending should know enough to do some basic adjustment. What they don't need is a bunch of harps being returned by beginners because notes won't play.
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Doug S.
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SuperBee
2824 posts
Sep 21, 2015
2:39 PM
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Ah, I found that post about the gaps.
Steve Baker posted on Harp-L back in April:
>> Hohner has not been bought out and there is no new manufacturer, the instruments are still made in Trossingen, Germany. KHS USA recently bought Hohner Inc. from Hohner in Trossingen, but this has no bearing on harmonica manufacture or quality. The harps are not being made any differently than they have been for the past 15 years.
>>
>> Not everybody plays with the same breath pressure. In response to complaints from some players that reeds tended to stick when played hard, Hohner raised the offsets. It isn't easy to find a "one size fits all" solution here and we found that the new offsets, while preventing reeds from sticking, made the harmonica less responsive for those playing at lower pressure. A compromise solution was introduced into current production late last year, though it may take a while to trickle through the supply chain. Reed offset adjustment is fairly straightforward and many players set up their instruments to suit their playing styles. Detailed information on how to perform this operation can be found here:
>>
>> http://www.playhohner.com/service/hohner-service/service-harmonica/#video_23
>>
>> Steve Baker
>> www.stevebaker.de
>> www.european-music-workshops.com
>> www.harmonica-masters.de
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SuperBee
2825 posts
Sep 21, 2015
2:52 PM
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The wide gaps actually do make my sp20 sound different...because it doesn't start to play until it gets enough air..which means it's loud. It doesn't do quiet. Maybe that's why people say they're 'different'? I dunno.
Down at my LMSs, there is a bunch of old sp20s and a few new ones...I think it's gonna be a crap shoot for quite a while whether a person gets one of these wider gapped harps which Steve referred to...depending on where you buy from.
Not just sp20s are affected by this.
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Gnarly
1475 posts
Sep 21, 2015
3:36 PM
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Steve Baker said, "It isn't easy to find a "one size fits all" solution here"
Amen brother. Let it be said that everyone who wants to play better should learn how to gap.
It will make you play better.
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1847
2767 posts
Sep 21, 2015
4:25 PM
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Steve Baker posted on Harp-L back in April:
>> Hohner has not been bought out and there is no new manufacturer, the instruments are still made in Trossingen, Germany. KHS USA recently bought Hohner Inc. from Hohner in Trossingen, but this has no bearing on harmonica manufacture or quality. The harps are not being made any differently than they have been for the past 15 years.
this is very misleading.
hohner has not been bought out... they were bought out years ago.... approximately 15 years ago.
Trossingen (dpa) - After overcoming a crisis, Hohner, the manufacturer
of musical instruments, wants to stabilise its business permanently.
The number of staff in the group, about 500, and in the joint-stock
company, about 230, will not be reduced any further. Hohner wants to
clearly reduce its loss in the operative business in the year 1998/99
(ending 31 March). Hohner shareholders have gone empty-handed for
years; new majority shareholder with 70 per cent is the Taiwanese
K.H.S. Musical Instruments company. Hohner is the world market leader
in harmonicas and a large manufacturer of accordeons. The Hohner group
expects a slight drop in turnover to between 150 and 152 million
German marks in 1998/99. In 1997/98, the turnover dropped by 5 per
cent to 157.2 million German marks. At the end of this year, the
publishing business with a turnover of 1.5 million German marks will
be sold to the Schott group of Mainz.
so no they have not been bought recently.
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SuperBee
2827 posts
Sep 21, 2015
6:23 PM
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He did say 'not being made any differently than they have been for the past 15 years'
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SuperBee
2828 posts
Sep 21, 2015
6:25 PM
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And the reference he was making was in reply to someone talking about recent sale of Hohner USA having affected the manufactured quality.
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1847
2769 posts
Sep 21, 2015
6:35 PM
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so they were bought out 15 years ago, and something was changed?
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SuperBee
2829 posts
Sep 21, 2015
7:26 PM
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I'm not a doctor of that, but things did change post 98 i think...they stopped using the yellow brass around then didn't they? but also changed the mensur of the reeds? i actually had in mind there was a bigger change in 2004-5...but its kind of OT re the OP which is about Progressive Sp20 and the perception some have that there is some significant difference between the 2014 "Marine Band" Sp20, and the 2015 "Progressive" Sp20..
corporate takeovers and tooling changes 10-15 years ago don't seem so relevant. i think there is consensus that the harps Hohner have produced in the 2000s on are generally much better than those of the mid 80s to late 90s...
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1847
2771 posts
Sep 21, 2015
8:10 PM
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the special 20 is a decent harp
i just like beating up on hohner because i have bought hundreds of crappy marine bands, so it gives me the right.
if you want a harp to sound good it's easy ..... just practice.
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