Has anyone here partially vented the covers for a bluesmaster? I have a bluesmaster in C that I very infrequently use anymore as the tone is a bit clean and sweet for my taste. Would venting the covers open the sound up a bit? Or would it make no real difference?
I have a ? Why is the current generation of harp players so anal and whiney about their harmonica's?
I just bought a used Hohner Hot Metal for $4 at the flea market, its now my go to harp, should I flat sand the reedplates, install powdercoated 1847 cover plates and a custom comb?
Is it because our heads have been filled with so much crap from online forums and website's or is it just part of the pussification of America?
Instead of worrying about what your harps look like, how about practicing more so we don't have so many advanced beginner/intermediate harp players in bands with advanced/pro musicians, and the local jams wouldn't be filled with so many bad players.
Think about it, the bar is set very low now for harp players. If your advanced beginner/intermediate level your now good enough to join a band. That's not the case with any other instrument, and was not the case in the past.
There I said it!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Aug 01, 2015 4:26 PM
Hi, Ian...i dont know much about suzuki harps, but i put some sp20 covers on a promaster at someone's suggestion (shakeylee?) Of course, they arent vented, i just like them better for shape. I dont know of any long covers with vents...but vents do make a difference to the acoustic sound i think. Whether it translates to amplified sound i dont really know but instinctively i think there is bunch of other stuff going on that might be more significant. The real issue with your clean sweet sounding bluesmaster is likely something other than non-vented covers though. What key, what are you comparing it to? What are you playing on it?
Harpaholic, have you ever heard guitar players talking about how to adjust their instruments? I sure have. They talk about the action and the pickups and the strings and put all sorts of stickers on them. I've got some harps that play amazing and some that play like crap and some that play great one day and sound like crap the next but then you whack em just right and they are perfect again. I've got harps that I'd call sweet and harps that I'd call cranky sounding. I've tinkered some with the insides of some of my harps and made some of them sound great and screwed others up. I once had a Piedmont that was my go to harp in D, and some other unstamped promotional harp in G with covers so thin that every time I set it down it got a new dent, but man it played great.
Some things I do to my harps seem to make them sound or play better. Why wouldn't you want to know the variables? As for having a lot of beginner/intermediate harp players, well, most of us pass through that stage at some point. I think the fact that there are so many out there is good news for harmonica. It means people are learning.
Now, as for vents in particular, I'm not sold on them. My favorite harps of all are pre-MS Blues Bands, which as I understand it, are just MBs with unvented covers. My general impression is that vents change the tone for the player more than for the listener, but I haven't examined it enough to rule out the luck of the draw on my harps. I suspect you would get more bang for your buck retuning it. I think most of the Suzukis are ET, aren't they? That might account for the sweeter tone, particularly on melodies. You might also squeeze some crankiness out of it by catching a little of the corner of the next note over.
If you've got the right tools I can't see much harm in trying venting the covers though, especially it's not a harp you use a lot. If it works, you've found out something new. If not, you probably just have a unique harp that sounds pretty much like it before. Unless you put out your eye in the process you haven't lost much and you've advanced science a little. :)
nacoran writes,"Harpaholic, have you ever heard guitar players talking about how to adjust their instruments?" How about golfers, bicyclists, sharpshooters, auto racers, tennis players, or any other human endeavor that uses equipment. It is just human nature to look for a shortcut in the equipment. Some people are worse than others. When I used to slalom race sports cars we had a term "Porshe Driver" for someone way more car than their skill level justified. It was fun to see a beautiful high dollar car get beat by a well tuned but ugly MG because the MG had a driver who knew what they were doing!
Harpaholic writes, "Is it because our heads have been filled with so much crap from online forums and website's or is it just part of the pussification of America?" An interesting way to answer this question would be to look at archives of enthusiasts magazines for various endeavors such as those I mentioned above and see if you can get back to a time when there was less focus on equipment and adjustment and more on basic hard work to improve skill. I know when I was racing bicycles in the 80's there was a lot of talk about double butted spokes and lightweight components, even though these things would add up to a few seconds advantage in a long race and most of the people doing the talking were loosing by minutes!
I think most of us know that a top player playing a blues band will sound better than we will on the best custom, but it's fun to dream!
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 01, 2015 8:33 PM
Harpaholic: I just enjoy talking about harmonicas (as much as I enjoy playing them). Of course I should practice more; so should you.
As for the OT: You could try side vents, but most likely the difference you hear is in the tuning temperament. The blues masters are well put together harps, but they are equal temperament and I myself prefer something a little closer to just intonation. You could try doing some slight tuning adjustments to get some other temperament. My guess is you'll be very surprised at how much that changes your mind on that particular harp.
Many knowledgeable people feel that the vents in covers matter most to the player, not the listener. That's because they allow a fraction of the sound produced inside the covers to escape in the direction of the player instead of allowing all of it to be projected toward the audience.
I personally dislike vented covers because they are near impossible to cup fully. I mean ~fully~, so that you can almost completely mute its sound. Paul Davies-style cupping.
I'm in agreement with the equal temperament diagnosis. Buy a harp with compromised tuning like a Marine Band or Special 20 and compare its sound to your Bluesmaster. Equal-tuned harps are great for fiddle tunes and situations when you must be in tune with other (equal-tuned) instruments like string instruments. But chords played on an equal-tunes harp sound not "sweet" but distinctly "sour" to my ear. I can tell when a chord is played on an equal-tuned harp a mile away.
Most any decent diatonic harmonica (read $30 and up) would be fine to learn to play. I agree with Harpaholic. Stop obsessing about the instrument and just play the derned thang! All the time. 8^)
Michelle
---------- SilverWingLeather.com email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
Last Edited by mlefree on Aug 02, 2015 9:11 AM
I don't necessarily agree with the delivery, but put me down as someone who completely agrees with what Harpaholic says! It is too easy to get mired down in minutia that doesn't really improve our creative expression of music. We seem to be way too concerned about these matters as harmonica players.
On the subject of vented covers, they serve a purpose that 99% of the harmonica population is unaware. In some cases, a reed on the far end of a harp - usually the high side - will speak (Vibrate) when a player is actually at the other end of the harp! This is because air travels that direction and propels the reed.
Vented covers eliminate this occurrence because the air escapes out the side.
Aside from that, there is no benefit to vented/non-vented covers. Your bone conductive hearing - the hearing that happens through the skull bones in your head will always trump air conductive hearing as it happens faster and the delivery is straight to the inner-ear. I can't imagine vents giving a player any extra monitoring benefits. On that, I could be wrong, though. ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
i definitely take the opposite approach :)i will try different parts on different harps,till the last breath! and ,yes,i will obsess about harmonicas.i am a gearhead.
let's look at the original post: ian has a harmonica he wants to change. he is not happy with it stock,and he wants to tweak it......just like we do with any other instrument.
i don't understand what is so wrong about wanting some harmonicas to be different than others.
i like vented covers on low keys for acoustic work.most of my income is no mics,no amps.
BTW,i have never come across an equal temperment bluesmaster . ---------- www.shakeylee.com
I think I understood what "clean and sweet" means, that his Harpmaster in C is perhaps better suited for country playing rather than a harsher, dirtier blues sound. I am assuming Ian wants a sound closer to Little Walter and Magic Dick rather than, say, Charlie McCoy or Todd Parrot. Part of practicing, practicing, practicing, our constant, persistent and inescapable go-to advice to beginning and intermediate players here, is finding the right instrument for the sound one wants to achieve. I do like Harpmasters , they are inexpensive , play well (generally) and are long lasting, but they do sound a little thin for the kind of attack I prefer. They are not my go-to harp. These days I fancy Crossovers , LOs, Session Steel Power Draws and the ever trusty SP20.
I didn't him complaining , but rather stating a preference and then asking a legitimate question."...the current generation of harp players..." is an incredible number of people of none of us have met nor talked to. I'd be hesitant to generalize. In any case, I of the opinion that this forum was a place designed to help harp players of all levels to talk about all things harmonica. ---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Aug 02, 2015 11:50 AM
Hi guys. Just logged back on. Kinda surprised about harpaholics response, I'm going to put that down to too much caffeine and not enough sleep, or something like that .... And he may be worried about the pussification of the US , but he need not... As I'm in the UK.
To the rest, Thanks for your feedback, as it really was just a question rather than a whinge.
I'll back up my question with some reasoning, perhaps that will help.
I have about a dozen harps, of those I prefer the sound of the vented harps (with the exception of the sp20s which I like as is). I have 2 bluesmasters, one in A which I sometimes use and one in C which I never touch anymore... Hence it's free for tinkering... Or it will just get dusty or sold.
The sweet sound I reference is just the difference to my ear compared with say the sp20 or the manji, I don't think it's a tuning thing though as I have an old LO and I wouldn't call that sweet despite also being the same tuning (I think I'm right there?) . The others sound either grittier or more 'open' , less constrained both in chords and single note playing . So I thought... what if I opened the corners of the covers to get a bit more feedback and maybe loose some of the Base? Or maybe not... Hence the question....
@shakeylee don't really want to buy another harp to swap plates, I wasn't wanting to invest that much in to it. But thanks for the idea. I checked out the site, Thanks for taking the time to post the image.
@tedburke. You kinda nailed it by the way.
Finally... I spend far more time practicing than I do worrying about harp modifications so to anyone looking sleep over this apparrent wave of inferior musicians... Panic not.
So... To vent or not to vent? I'm thinking just give it a go... At the end of the day, this isn't me trying to find a perfect sound or magically improve my playing... Its just me messing around with a harp I don't use.
Last Edited by Ian on Aug 02, 2015 4:59 PM
ian,you don't have to buy a whole new harp for covers.
covers are about five bucks at harp depot.
rockin ron's has sp20 covers for about six.sp20 covers fit proharps,to fit blues masters,you just elongate the hole a bit if needed to get them up to the edge of the recessed comb.
all that said,you could just dremel or file a slot in the existing covers.
if you live near philly,i'd do it for you. ---------- www.shakeylee.com
BTW,you could also drill holes in the comb and reedplates and attach manji covers,to see if the sound is more to your liking ---------- www.shakeylee.com
@shakeylee, Thanks again for you guidance on this. But I live in the UK and I think covers on their own are harder to come by here, at least I have never seen them for sale I think I'll risk a bit of dremel action. Next time I'm in the US I'll be heading straight to the stores you guys mention all the time and stocking up. Mainly because it's so cheap over with you!! All harp related purchases here are at least 25% more expensive here.
ok ian. if you live in southern england ,like portsmouth,southampton or swanage,i can get a set to you.i am friends with some musicians there.
if you live in the midlands,i could too,but it would take longer. feel free to PM me or FB me,so i don't blow this thread up too much. ---------- www.shakeylee.com
Last Edited by shakeylee on Aug 02, 2015 3:23 PM
I have used a Dremel with a cutoff wheel to vent some SP20's. That was about 20 minutes of my life which I will never get back. I noticed no difference in tone. Maybe I should have just practiced for 20 minutes.
Don't get me started on tuning, drilling, sanding, tapping, burnishing.., who's got time to practice?
i'd say that working on harps probably led me to practice more, and more meaningfully. put me more in touch with the instrument i think ive read Jason Ricci say something similiar.
all the fellers who do good work on harps seem to be pretty good players...
i've repaired about a hundred harps this year, replacing reeds, shaping reeds, adjusting gaps and tuning mainly, but also a bit of sanding drilling and tapping...not to mention screwing...
I thought just Manjis were Compromise tuning.I only have a harpmaster and it sounds et but not positive.Any harp named Bluesmaster should not be tuned equal imo.
@harpaholic, I seriously think you need to re read my question. You really have got the wrong idea as to what I want to do and why. I have one harp in my collection that I don't use anymore, I was just wondering what would happen to the sound if I vented the covers, or did anything else to it for that matter. If I do it or don't, this has absolutely nothing to do with looks, style or practicing.
Here's an informative article by Kinya Pollard entitled, "Venting Hohner Special 20 Cover Plates."
He likes to vent his '20s because as he says, "Harmonicas fitted with vented cover plates, such as the Hohner Marine Band, enable the player to experience greater resonance and richness from their instrument." I'll leave y'all to figure out just what that means.
If you decide to do it, here are the details by an expert:
Thanks Michelle. I've done one side ( venting) which wasn't easy due to the small gap between the screws and the edge... Its a small vent but it's tidy. I have also opened up the back a bit too with some rubber edged needle nose pliers, I didn't do the best job of that bit but it's not a beauty contest I suppose. The sound from a players point of view is definitely different now. Louder, more open and a little dirtier... Ill do the other side later this week.
Edited: Ian, its not directed towards you. I don't understand why anyone would spend all that time and effort on a $19 harp, but that's my problem. Maybe that's one of the reasons 95% of harp players are beginner's? If not then why? I, that means me would use that time more productively, and I would encourage others to do the same. I guess I'm old school!
Now I'm done!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Aug 03, 2015 6:15 PM
Ian, its not directed towards you. I just don't understand all the time and effort wasted on a $19 harp. I would use that time more productively, and I encourage others to do the same. That's all I'm going to say.
you mean something that actually makes a difference? say perhaps tuning?
after all if you really want to play and sound better spend your time getting your harmonica in tune.
if you are going to waste your time putting a silly ass side vent on a harp. there are much more productive ways to waste your time.
You never know what you might learn when you tinker with things. It is generally a good idea to start tinkering on cheap stuff so you are not out so much when you screw it up. Even when you ruin something by tinkering with it, the knowledge you gained is yours to keep. That is unless you learn something like, crawling under a car supported by only cinder blocks can get you killed, first hand. Well you may get to keep that knowledge, no one really knows!
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 03, 2015 6:12 PM
By the way, don't worry I'm not offended.... Its like i said before, this is not an exercise In perfecting a harp or hoping it will make me better, it's just curiosity. And, as a result of my curiosity, I have amended a harp which I havnt used for months, to the point where I think I may use it more now. Plus it was kinda fun messing about with it.
And trust me, I find far less productive ways to waste my time on a daily basis!
Unless you're working with them, or unless their actions somehow affect you personally, why should anyone give a flip about someone else's productivity/time management/efficiency?
Seems like a good time to re-read the lyrics of "Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do" ---------- Marr's Guitars
Over a decade's experience designing, building & playing Cigar Box Guitars
Last Edited by Rontana on Aug 04, 2015 4:47 AM
Billie Holiday T'aint nobody's business if I do3:00YouTube ยท 60,000+ views See more songs by Billie Holiday Lyrics
There ain't nothing I can do Or nothing I can say That folks don't criticize me But I'm going to do Just as I want to anyway And don't care just what people say If I should take a notion To jump into the ocean Ain't nobody's business if I do If I go to church on Sunday Then cabaret all day Monday
I'll tell you what started my rant. Weekly blues only jam last week harp player name Dave from Sacramento shows up with five years experience. He had a case full of custom harps, at least twenty. A beautiful Greg Heumann wood mic. They call him up. He mainly wailed on the 4 and 5 draw with an occasional 3 draw and not musically. It was the most painful performance I've ever heard. Thankfully they only let him play one song. I've seen similar scenarios in the past.
Maybe it's just me, but I see a lot wrong with that picture. Personally I don't care what anyone else does or doesn't do. I just think if one of the reasons we are here is to help others are we sending the wrong message?
"Maybe it's just me, but I see a lot wrong with that picture."
It's the harmonica equivalent of the "Porsche Driver" I mentioned before(no offence intended to anyone who has a Porsche and can actually drive it well). You will find them in any endeavor that requires equipment. There will always be beginners with enough cash to buy the best and there will be a few who will. These beginners will always have circles run around them by skilled folks with much inferior equipment. And it will always seem unfair that these poor performers get the top notch equipment, while the skilled performer has to make due with much less. To add insult to injury, the poor performer with the top notch equipment frequently has no idea how bad they are, even if there is a time or a score that proves it!
I would advocate testing to make sure no one has equipment better than their skill warrants, but I wouldn't want to have to go down several notches in the quality of harps in my kit!
Last Edited by STME58 on Aug 04, 2015 4:49 PM
I completely agree with the last two posts. Its interesting to see the course this thread took though, as its obviously a source of frustration.... as somehow my question about modifying an unused harp stoked the fire in some and somehow gave birth to a pretty long conversation. In my job I see students with all the gear and no idea all of the time. Its frustrating, especially as I see other students who have natural ability struggling to get by with very little or inferior kit. I'm the first to say focus on training before kit, it's in my opening theory session during courses. However.... I still enjoy kit, and always have done. When my sponsors send me new kit that is apparently 30% more efficient I'm all over it! Even if I know that it probably won't make me perform 30% better, maybe it will make me feel like I can... So maybe I will? We almost need a new thread for this discussion! (or maybe we should just let the thread die ;) )
Last Edited by Ian on Aug 04, 2015 5:18 PM
Glad to see everyone getting along. I also completely agree with the last several post. Harpaholic has brought up a few good point regarding equipment vs skill. I think part of comes down to the fact that skill takes real work and time while new equipment just takes money and some relatively new players may mistake good gear as being the reason a good player sounds good. It might help but the real reason they sound good is because they practiced well and put in the time.
Ian, I think the way to make that Bluesmaster a bit more interesting sounding, would be to re-tune it in a compromise direction. I agree with those who point to the OOTB ET tuning as the main reason it sounds so unexciting.
You could also drill some side vents, or change to vented covers, but I don't think it will noticeably change the sound heard by the audience. I did an experiment recording myself playing a SP20 and a Rocket, both in key of G. When I played them they sounded different to my ears. But on the recording the tonal difference was very tiny - almost non-existant.
As for the rest of the above discussion - it seems like a good dinner table or bar topic for SPAH. I think Ian asked a fair question.
Last Edited by A440 on Aug 05, 2015 9:55 AM
I agree with A440 that Ian asked a fair question, and I think that intertwined in the tread he got some reasonable answers. I think the two topics in this tread both match the title, but with two different meanings of the word "vented" :-)
"Maybe that's one of the reasons 95% of harp players are beginner's? If not then why?"
Actually, you could say that about any instrument (that most people who play them are beginners). It's because learning an instrument to any real level of skill is actually not easy at all, and, more importantly, it takes quite a bit of time and effort. Most people like the idea of playing an instrument, but when push comes to shove, they don't like it enough to really put the time and effort into it. I know tons of people with a really nice piano (or keyboard) in their homes, but I can count on one hand the number of them that can really play the thing. Ditto for guitars. Ditto for harmonicas. If you can't walk the walk, then you talk the talk. Which, with musical instruments, means you buy fancy ones. That's not what's going on with the OP, but it's certainly going on in general. But here's the kicker: with out all of these "posers", there simply wouldn't be enough business to keep guys like Greg Huemann, Joe Spiers, etc., etc., in business. Or, at least, there wouldn't be enough business to keep more than one of them in the biz... So, despite being annoying during jams and on YouTube, those guys with way more kit than talent do serve a purpose: they fuel the economy for quality options that better players benefit from... Just my 2 cents... ----------
