AyyFine
1 post
Jan 17, 2015
2:55 PM
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Hello all. Im new around these parts of the web. Im an Industrial Design student at Philadelphia University in PA. Im also a musician and passionate harp player. Its my final year, and for my capstone project i want to design new harmonica parts. Ive been focusing on redesigning the top/bottom cover as well as the comb. Seeing as i have only a semester, i dont even want to go near the reed plates and other internal components
So here are some questions for all you harp players and musicians.
What do you like/dislike about current covers (material, look, feel, function)?
What do you like dislike about current combs (material, look, feel, funktion)?
Would you be interested in the harmonica serving another function/purpose?
Other comments/concerns are welcome.
Thank you for any responses, help or advice you may offer.
- Alexi Fineman
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arzajac
1559 posts
Jan 17, 2015
5:40 PM
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Hi Alexi.
I produce my own combs, so I am interested in this topic! Welcome to the forum!
I had some back-and-forth with a few players about some comb design changes; I posted about it here:Research and development of optimized combs
In short, I made the tines a little thinner so the opening between holes was 40 per cent wider and I created resonance chambers at the bottom on the tines to try to improve the tone.
In both cases, some players thought the change was great, some thought it was bad and most didn't care either way. I'm not convinced a more complex design is indicated.
To back up a little and actually answer your question, I would say the biggest problem with harmonica combs is that they are mass produced and not therefore not flat enough. It's challenging to mass-produce two (three!) solid pieces to be flat enough so that they are airtight when sandwiched together.
Pardon me as I go off topic a bit to say I think if you came up with an easy and inexpensive way to produce flat combs and reed plates, you'd make a lot of money. The biggest challenge would be to make sure the bottom surface of the blow plate is flat after the reeds are put on. Good luck!
...Back to combs. Aside from flat, there is the problem with swelling. Folks love the sound of wood but wood swells and rots. Bamboo is one solution that many player like. There are other materials that are favourable, too. Dymondwood used to be popular despite the offensive scent it emits for about 24 months after being cut. I use a substance very much like Dymondwood ; it's earth-friendly, made out of recycled paper and natural resin. It doesn't swell, sounds great and there is no smell.
Comfort is important. A nice durable finish and rounded or chamfered tines makes it comfortable.
In terms of aesthetics, some folks love whacky colours. I offer five dark colors but about 90 per cent of my customers prefer to save a few bucks and get combs of a random color - so color is not that important to a lot of people.
(continued)
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Jan 17, 2015 5:42 PM
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arzajac
1560 posts
Jan 17, 2015
5:51 PM
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Cover plates are a bigger challenge. I would love to have access to more cover plate options. Specifically, wider clearance so that the bottom-end draw reeds don't hit the cover plate.
Everyone has their preference in terms of tone (vented, non-vented, full-length) and it would be great to have options to mix-and-match. Say, a full-length cover for a Special 20. Or a non-vented cover for a low-key Marine Band.
Best of luck on your capstone project! Keep us informed!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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AyyFine
3 posts
Jan 17, 2015
7:35 PM
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Thanks for the reply arzajac! Very interesting about the manufacturing. i'll definitely check that out. I agree about their not being enough customized cover plates out their, definitely an opportunity there. Ive been doing a series of skethes ranging from in the box and out. One out idea was the harmonica doubling as a slide for slide guitar, upright and lap stlye. I made some computer models and rendering but i cant seem to paste them in here. Have any opinions about this. Critisms welcome.
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florida-trader
609 posts
Jan 18, 2015
9:32 AM
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Alexi – I think it would be safe to say that virtually every harmonica player would welcome any product you could develop that represented a genuine improvement in their beloved instruments. Big business does R&D and Focus Groups in advance of turning out new products in order to maximize the chances of a successful launch. That’s what you are doing on a small scale basis by reaching out to the members of this forum. Good move. Academia has a tendency to talk about projects in a theoretical sense - which is a necessary step of the process. And you will find that there will be no shortage of free advice and “great ideas”. However, the only way you will ever know is if you actually build the product and make it available to the market at price that enables you to make a profit. If they buy it - you’ve got a winner. If they don’t – then it’s back to the drawing board. Do a search in the patent library for harmonica inventions and you will find hundreds of good ideas that never went anywhere. This is not meant to discourage you. Quite the contrary. I’m rooting for you as are a lot of others. It’s just a small dose of reality.
Best of luck to you.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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A440
310 posts
Jan 18, 2015
9:43 AM
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Successful design/innovation focuses on a "Job to be Done" (Clayton Christensen).
One job to be done: create a 10-hole harp that is easier to cup (with a truly airtight seal) on a stick or bullet mic.
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jbone
1862 posts
Jan 18, 2015
10:00 AM
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@ A440- Seems I've seen some plastic sleeve sort of deals which hold a harp or even two and the other end is a hole for a mic. I have to wonder though if some sort of cover plate extension could do the same thing.
How about this, a 10 hole harp with a mini tuneup kit in a compartment on the end of the comb?
Comb with built-in pickup and input jack?
There's some ideas there. I am no inventor so feel free.
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GMaj7
596 posts
Jan 18, 2015
10:06 AM
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I think from a business perspective you should look where there are openings in the market and where you would have a margin. Neither exist as that relates to the harmonica.
In a semester there is simply no way - in my opinion - that you could design and build something that hasn't already been done. Blue Moon, Genesis, Blow Your Brass Off, and Andrew have been at this for years. They all have a Phd in making mistakes and fixing them.
However, there is a need for some other related products. Currently there is only one microphone that hooks to a harmonica. No way to know the margin on that product but given the price $300, one would expect its high. There seems to be high demand for it among chromatic players, as well as rack diatonic musicians.
Strnad built a handy microphone that would attach to a harp - both 10 and 12 hole - but unfortunately with his death, the product died, too.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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jbone
1863 posts
Jan 18, 2015
10:38 AM
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http://www.frontandcentermics.com/g-rig.html
This is sort of the idea. I know there are others but I have not found one today.
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jiceblues
384 posts
Jan 18, 2015
10:42 AM
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My 2 cents : most harps are too small .Not talking of the mouthpiece , but comb and covers .I think the good size is the LO .And , for me , the good shape for covers is the MB .MS BLues Harp covers are good , but the comb is a pity , not flat , not airtight .
Well , a BH , with a bigger and flat comb , rounded corners & rounded tines ? the comb & covers could be stainless steel...
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nacoran
8221 posts
Jan 18, 2015
11:53 AM
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I've played around with a few of the weird toys in the harmonica world- Turbolids, fun combs, etc. (Arzajac, a Turbolid would give you all the clearance you need!)
For sheer aesthetics, the best looking harp I've seen as far as the lines is an old Magnus harmonica. Unfortunately, like most Magnus harps, it plays terribly. I don't know if it's because of the unusual comb or the terrible plastic reeds, but I've always wanted to find out. Basically, the thing that makes the Magnus look so hot is that it has a tapered comb and rivets. Here is a look at a couple of them-
The first thing to determine would be what that does to the reed plates, being angled apart like that. If it didn't screw things up, some sort of update might be in order. If it did, I've considered cutting off the ends of the reed plates and raising the ends of the comb, to achieve the same effect. I've played around with attaching the covers with magnets, but ultimately, if you have more than one harp in your set with magnetic covers they catch each other. Turbolids pop off without tools, (so do the covers on the tiny Hohner Puck) and there is another harp that has reed plates that pop off without tools (spring loaded levers I think) but no harp can be taken apart all the way down without tools. Something that fixed that might be interesting.
It may seem silly, but I figure any idea you can sell one to for each harmonica player might have some legs, and you mentioned other purposes- it seems to me a lot of players might buy a comb with a built in bottle opener! Or a pen light. Or a Swiss Army Knife that looked like a harmonica. I'm not saying any of those ideas are winners, but they might get you thinking outside the box.
Like Andrew says, covers are the hardest thing to get options on. There are stock covers, and now starting to be wooden covers, and I think Hetrick had a design for Corian, and there is the Turbolid. Other than that, it's a wide open field. Maybe the invention isn't a new cover but a way for people to design their own covers? The injection molder to make Turbolid style covers is prohibitively expensive, as are the stamping presses for standard covers.
For inspiration, here are some of the other crazy things being done with harp-
There was this guy who made a glowing harmonica-
I've always wondered if there would be a way to combine that with a pitch sensor.
And there is the company Jamboxx that has made an entirely electronic harmonica that doubles as an accessibility controller for people with mobility issues. Turboharp has designed an optical pickup system for each reed in a harp.
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Nate
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A440
311 posts
Jan 18, 2015
11:56 AM
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@jbone I was thinking more about how to re-shape the harp itself, to make it more cuppable/sealable. I find full length covers better than boxcar covers, but exploring further - can the shape and size be changed more radically? Todays harps are all squared angles. When I look at my left hand, between thumb and index finger, the space for fitting a harp in there has no right angles...
Last Edited by A440 on Jan 18, 2015 11:58 AM
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the_happy_honker
203 posts
Jan 18, 2015
12:26 PM
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A harp that's good to have in your hand in a bar fight. Heavy, doesn't do more damage to your hand than you're doing to his face, know what I mean?
The side vents could be shaped to open beer bottles.
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shakeylee
5 posts
Jan 18, 2015
1:37 PM
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dear ayyfine,although i am nowhere near textile(i'm closer to penn/drexel) i am indeed in philly.
there are some good ideas in this thread. i like the above idea of being able to tell top from bottom quickly.
there are custom combs.how about more custom covers?
if you ever need anything tested or anything,feel free to contact me.
break a leg!!! shakey in philly
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Harmlessonica
13 posts
Jan 18, 2015
2:22 PM
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Another thought occurred to me:
How about a moulded comb to aid beginners get clear single notes? You see some vintage ones on Ebay for this purpose, I think a contemporary designer should revisit the idea. The smart money's on AyyFine.
Additionally, remembering the holes is tricky at first. Maybe covers could be shaped or even dimpled (like braille?) to aid recognition.
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Rontana
28 posts
Jan 18, 2015
2:53 PM
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Personally, I just want a harp that could double as a guitar slide (as in . . . the backside features a rounded tube of brass/pyrex).
Then again . . . a Swiss Army harp would be cool too.
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AyyFine
5 posts
Jan 19, 2015
11:20 AM
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Rontana thats one thing ive been working on! On problem with these CAD models is that the groove would probably interfere with the reeds. I was think also instead of a ring, elastic straps where the groove is. Hope these images show up.
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1467433_10205578398520094_4542415252246284289_n.jpg?oh=3d75e04f646c3058b0a75128649cac82&oe=552CAC13
https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10801725_10205578397680073_7648261948731983387_n.jpg?oh=e12050464600a45cfec170321504b36c&oe=552816E0
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1503269_10205578398440092_8082510150105924713_n.jpg?oh=1eb221323c72c2dfa599e07fc86c92d5&oe=556448A6&__gda__=1428796057_a59e3167d90c6571a4649a8c863dab0f
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nacoran
8222 posts
Jan 19, 2015
12:51 PM
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AyyFine, I think you might be able to take advantage of which way the reeds swing, maybe... you've need more room for the top reeds to swing in the back and the bottom reeds to swing on the front.
Looking at your mockup I'm not sure the utility of having that part on the end swing is worth the extra production hassle. What if it just stuck up as the default? It looks like it would still work to be able to hold it in harp playing position and might be sturdier. Alternately, if it was detachable it could switch for lefties or righties.
Another possible product idea would be a tiny light in one end that would back light the key?
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Nate
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Danny Starwars
10 posts
Jan 19, 2015
12:58 PM
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A guy I knew (here in NZ) Brendan Power once made a new valve design that enabled easy blow bends lower down and draw bends higher up, and he sold the idea to *edit* SUZUKI.
Cleverer bugger than me though.
Last Edited by Danny Starwars on Jan 20, 2015 1:03 AM
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Brendan Power
459 posts
Jan 20, 2015
12:24 AM
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Hi Danny, gidday from England! It's bloody cold here at the moment, I wouldn't mind enjoying some NZ sunshine right now...
Actually it was Suzuki. They put my idea (half-valving) into their Promaster MR350V harmonica, which is still going strong over twenty years later.
They paid me a royalty for the idea for 5 years after release, which helped pay the bills when I first came to the UK.
If you're interested in knowing more about it there are videos on YouTube. Especially check out the playing of PT Gazell, who uses half-valving really well to play jazz on the diatonic. He also came up with an excellent new valve material, Ultrasuede, which is quiet, rugged, and doesn't stick or rattle.
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Danny Starwars
20 posts
Jan 20, 2015
12:32 AM
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Ahh - weird how the apocryphal stories grow in the mind ha!
Jolly good to catch up. One of the highlights of my learning to play the harp was standing in your lounge and using your bullet mic, having never seen one outside of a movie.
One single impromptu lesson, stayed with me all these years.
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Harmlessonica
19 posts
Jan 20, 2015
1:54 AM
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It certainly is cold here in the UK. Most days the only time I can get for practise is whilst waiting for the bus, but these days my harmonica becomes choked with condensation in no time... maybe someone should invent a weatherproof model!
Ultrasuede sounds interesting. My Seydel Favorite LLF has valves on holes 1-3, which look like they're made of felt - I guess it's a similar concept.
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Rontana
29 posts
Jan 20, 2015
5:03 AM
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AyyFine,
Cool Ideas there. I wasn't thinking of rounding the middle-top of the cover, as I assumed the thickness required might affect the sound of the harp. I was thinking more of an extension that ended with a small tube on the very back of the top cover.
Say the back of the top cover extended about 1/2-inch further than normal, with the edge rounded (I'm thinking mostly about a set-up that would allow the player to still get the harp deep his his mouth without having to reposition their hand)
My sticking point on this keeps coming back to the fact that I generally wear the slide on my ring finger or pinkie. I like your ring idea on the end. Perhaps integrating the "Jet Slide" design with a harp has potential.
I've often wondered why the top cover doesn't extend further anyway. I would think it would make a traditional hold a little more comfortable (though this may be an isolated problem particular to those of us who have had carpal problems)
Just some food for thought.
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
Last Edited by Rontana on Jan 20, 2015 5:12 AM
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AyyFine
6 posts
Jan 23, 2015
6:00 AM
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Woah that Jet Slide is funky looking. Definitely something to take into consideration. And when you describe extending the top cover, do you mean extending it from the sides out? or from the back out?
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isaacullah
2923 posts
Jan 23, 2015
9:42 AM
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I second this notion from Nacoran: "I think you might be able to take advantage of which way the reeds swing, maybe... you've need more room for the top reeds to swing in the back and the bottom reeds to swing on the front."
There are a couple of innovations in harp covers out there the sort of do this already. Basically, just turbolids, and the covers of the Thunderbirds and low Manji's (and the much coveted handmade covers by Joe Filisko). I think the issue most folks have with the Turbolids is that they are plastic "snap on". You either love that about them, or really hate it. If something like that could be made from metal, and which screwed on to the harp through the "normal" coverplate holes, it might be cool. I think that the only reason "normal" coverplates are the same on top and bottom is because it's cheaper (you only need one form to stamp that shape). I have no idea if acounting for how the reeds swing will make any difference to the tone, but it might increase playability, and would certainly reduce reed rattle.
IMO, however, the best innovation you could come up with would be a way to cut the slots and holes in reedplates so that the plate doesn't get warped in the process. Probably a laser cutter CNC machine would be needed. Then, spot-weld reeds on like Suzuki, and the reedplate should remain ultra-flat through the whole process. Mounted on a properly lapped comb, and that would be one damn airtight harp!
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nacoran
8229 posts
Jan 23, 2015
10:39 AM
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Isaac, along the lines of a non-plastic Turbolid (I like them myself, real easy on the lips), how about a single piece lid, top and bottom. If it had punched holes in the front, so that there was an edge that slipped snuggly into the tine holes, the whole thing could slip around the comb leaving just the back of the comb showing. It could either snap in place or have screws (either in the normal place or recessed on the end). Kind of like a zeppelin or an airstream trailer end to end.
Another thing I've always wondered about- how about a comb/reed plate combo? If you used the screw method for attaching reeds and made quality metal comb. You drill the reed chambers in from the front with a round bit and then cut tight tolerance reed slots in, predrill holes for the reeds and attach the reeds with screws (use softer screws than the comb material so that over the years of replacing reeds the replaceable screws are what wear out.) The trick would be the tolerances on the reed slots would have to be dead on. (You might still be able to emboss by putting a rod in the reed chamber to push against). It seems a comb/reed plate combo would take care of all the issues involved with air leaks between the comb and reed plate!
Tolerances would be the key though. It would depend entirely on if you could get the tolerances tight enough on the 'reed plate' holes. Unless a manufacturer provided pre-drilled reeds it might involve too much fiddly work for the average tinkerer though. (Of course, if it worked, you could sell it to one of the manufacturers.)
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Nate
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