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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
two new forums here?: please weigh in
two new forums here?: please weigh in
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kudzurunner
5229 posts
Jan 08, 2015
11:28 AM
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I'd like people to weigh in on the following idea--two ideas, actually, resulting from the suggestions-for-this-website thread.
The idea is this: create two new dedicated forums, each with a brand-new homepage: one oriented towards beginners, one oriented towards those with stuff for sale.
I'm of two minds. It's no trouble to do this, nor does it cost me any money. I could do it all in a 30 minutes, I think. And I've had suggestions, both in the thread and via email, suggesting good reasons why such forums are needed.
The downside is less tangible. One thing I like about the MBH forum is the turnover and energy that comes from many different orientations towards the instrument all competing for shelf-space. Other blues forums with more instrumentality have sub-forums. This one doesn't have that capacity. I would need to create actual separate forums--although one registration would get you into all three, as it currently gets you into the Blues Jams forum and Blues Talk forum. But neither of those forums has much action.
My own feeling is that this is worth putting into action, on an experimental basis. I think we should try it for three months, then take stock and see what we think.
I suspect that having three forums (the Dirty-South Blues Harp forum, the Beginner's forum, and the Sell Stuff Here forum) will decrease traffic a bit on the main forum, but will also give participants in those other two new forums a sudden sense of becoming more visible to each other as sub-communities of this community. For that reason alone, I think this is worth doing.
But I'd like some feedback. Please weigh in. Please offer reasons for and against, if you care to. If you've seen other forums try this expansionist move, share your sense of how they worked out.
One more thing: If and when I do create two new forums, I will NOT make them visible in the index. Instead, I'll link them with big fat links from the main forum homepage.
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rogonzab
641 posts
Jan 08, 2015
11:36 AM
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I dont see the point for a Beginners forum. What thread started by a begginer do not get responses? I dont think that they get lost in the home page of the forum, is rare that a topic gets no replys, and some times a beginner question start a interesting conversation about something, and that conversation can get lost in a forum whit 20 threads on how to bend the -4.
The for sale page is maybe a good idea.
That is my 2cents.
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Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
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Kingley
3802 posts
Jan 08, 2015
11:39 AM
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I certainly agree that it could decrease traffic on the main forum.
With regards to the "For Sale" and "For Barter" threads. Maybe another idea might not be to host them on another separate forum, but to instead have a time limit of say one month on items. After that they get removed/deleted from the thread. That would keep the page cleaner and easier to scroll through. Also maybe stopping the main (pro/semi pro) vendors from posting their wares on it and instead give them a separate forum on which to do that might help.
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indigo
37 posts
Jan 08, 2015
12:47 PM
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We had a permanent 'beginners' thread start a few months as suggested by member "mind the Gap"
After a couple of weeks it just seemed to wither away.
Agree with kingley re the For Sale forum.
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robbert
357 posts
Jan 08, 2015
2:09 PM
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I find the current format to be working well. I like seeing all the traffic at one location, and can easily track all the threads, and respond to those which call to me. This way, I know I'm not missing something of interest.
However, it's often good to experiment...
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dougharps
802 posts
Jan 08, 2015
2:16 PM
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I remember when I first started reading harp-l, the first forum of which I became aware. I read a whole lot of information that was beyond my level, but gradually began to understand.
If you dilute the forum too much there will be too much to read, and many won't go to each forum. I think we all benefit, including beginners, from it all being in one place. Crowd sourcing information really works! You get many perspectives in one location. If someone gives questionable info you can count on it being noted and countered.
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Doug S.
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A440
287 posts
Jan 08, 2015
2:32 PM
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For beginners, the value of the forum is the access to experienced players, to get questions answered, and to learn by reading/absorbing the discussions on more advanced topics. So I think it would be a disservice to beginners to send them to a separate room.
Last Edited by A440 on Jan 08, 2015 2:38 PM
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Littoral
1188 posts
Jan 08, 2015
3:28 PM
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A440 "...it would be a disservice to beginners to send them to a separate room."
Go to your room. :) Yea, non-beginners wouldn't often visit the beginners forum.
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Rontana
16 posts
Jan 08, 2015
4:07 PM
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Perhaps the single thing I like most about this forum (and what makes it different from others) is the way beginners are treated. As one myself, the support and advice really helps me push through and keep going when I can't figure something out. I started a thread just the other day on a problem I was having, and there must have been 15 or 20 responses.
That blew me away . . . the courtesy and willingness to help was way beyond refreshing.
The other idea, a dedicated "for sale" page, sounds great. The idea of a time limit, as suggested earlier, is also very good.
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
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root
31 posts
Jan 08, 2015
4:31 PM
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I really like the idea of a "for sale" page,as I'm going to try and unload some surplus stuff to finance my trip to the Spah convention this August. I'd rather offer it to folks who know what I'm talking about than put it up on Ebay.
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J_Bark
36 posts
Jan 08, 2015
5:15 PM
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As another of the forums beginners I completely agree that we, and our threads, are welcomed, treated with respect, given the occasional reality check,and we receive extremely valuable help from the more experienced members.
I also do not think that the forum is swamped by beginner topics, so I say no need for a change.
Lastly, as noted by A440 I learn a lot by reading all of the threads that interest me.
Cheers,
Jerry
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walterharp
1575 posts
Jan 08, 2015
5:30 PM
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seems to be working now....
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jbone
1851 posts
Jan 08, 2015
8:39 PM
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I'd say a sale/barter dedicated place would be good but I kind of like the variety of all roads leading to the same spot re q&a, commentary, video links, introductions, etc.
So many joints get changed for whatever reason, it's sometimes unsettling. I don't even go to some places any more because they improved so much I got lost.
In the last year I had to kind of dig for barter, sale, and want to buy threads, so it would be cool if those were in one place.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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SuperBee
2314 posts
Jan 08, 2015
10:41 PM
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you can change but what is the perceived benefit? i can see some possible practical reasons to separate out wtb/wts into a sticky thread, but i don't understand the beginner issue. its true the beginner thread petered out but that was probably as much to do with how clumsy it was...lke the current wts thread...but then we had the idea to mark things as BGR or some such...and it didnt really seem to catch on....maybe because there isnt much need for it. or maybe people just forgot. or stopped thinking they were beginners. and theres a point; if there is a 'beginner' thread, does that mean we have to work out who is a beginner? it seems too contrived to be beneficial imho
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MindTheGap
470 posts
Jan 08, 2015
10:43 PM
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Rontana, J_Bark - History shows that the temper of this forum waxes and wanes over time. Some say it follows the phases of the moon, some the solar cycle. Currently it is in a quiet phase, and I noticed you have experienced a warm welcome to your questions. But it's not always been like that. If you had arrived during a stormy period you might not have felt so much like posting.
indigo - It's not quite like that re the beginners thread withered away. What happened was that we had a thread bubbling along nicely with a handful of beginners, then had a wider and positive discussion about its future (separate forum, separate threads, or integrated) and the consensus was to integrate back into the main forum - for the good reasons repeated in this current thread. And then it withered away.
A440. Re For beginners, the value of the forum is the access to experienced players, to get questions answered, and to learn by reading/absorbing the discussions on more advanced topics.
Is it? Well, you've hit the nail on the head here. The centre of gravity of the forum is currently around the more experienced player (and a handful of pros, teachers and customisers), many of who are happy to give their advice to beginners. And there is much merit in that. What is is not is a place for beginners to get together and chinwag about their own experiences, struggles, findings, likes and disklikes. It could be, but it isn't. Given that this website one of the main places beginners will be attracted to, that is a starkly missing piece. Learning an instrument - or learning anything - is not only a meekly passive 'read and learn from your elders and betters' experience, it should also an active thing. Well, that's what I think.
The simple fact is that not many beginners are active contributors. You can assume that many beginners read the forum as a natural result of Adam's site being aimed at beginners and learners. Then you can conclude that's fine, everyone is getting what they want. Or you might think, 'what's wrong with is picture?' and try some experiments.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 08, 2015 10:43 PM
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MindTheGap
471 posts
Jan 08, 2015
10:55 PM
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Superbee - Why did it peter out? I don't know. That's how it goes with experiments on the web, things tend to catch fire or wither for all kinds of unfathomable reasons. The trick isn't to over-analyse the failures, but try lots of things. Like Edison's approach when he was inventing. The drive behind developing the phonograph was as a dictaphone, but it caught on elsewhere.
But the tone of the original beginner's thread was generally chatty. The tone of beginners questions in the main thread is generally to ask/receive specific advice.
That's the analysis - but here's the simple question: this website is read in 190 countries (I'm told), it is perhaps the most prominent source of free and paid for harp learning material on the web. Where are the beginners?
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SuperBee
2316 posts
Jan 08, 2015
11:55 PM
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in that context, i'd ask 'where is everybody?'
but sure, why not? it can only be good or fail. whats to lose?
i was probably a beginner when i found the site and the forum. but i didn't post anything for a couple of years. i'm trying to remember why. i think it was just that chatting on a forum didn't seem very relevant. i remember taking a look and it all seemed quite confusing, but maybe if there'd been a 'beginners thread' or such i may've been more inclined to chat.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 09, 2015 12:44 AM
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A440
290 posts
Jan 09, 2015
12:45 AM
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Frankly, I think this is an excellent forum as it is today. There is no other forum that competes in any serious way, so people are not fleeing elsewhere. The adage is: "If it's not broken, don't try to fix it". Many of us are old enough to remember "New Coke" in the 1980s...
Last Edited by A440 on Jan 09, 2015 12:46 AM
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MindTheGap
472 posts
Jan 09, 2015
1:01 AM
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A440 - I agree it's an excellent forum and I enjoy reading it often. But there aren't any beginners swapping view on it. There are plenty of experienced players swapping views, and I can understand that from your point of view, it does what you want.
I don't think the old engineer's adage is applicable either to any activities on the web (which has been nothing but a wild conveyor belt of new ideas since it started) or to harmonicas, where constant innovation seems to be the only constant, both in equipment and technique.
If Adam starts a beginner-oriented forum, and it withers, a person might be tempted to say: ah-ha I was right, beginners don't want to interact they just want to listen to more experienced players chatting and answering specific questions. But that may not be the correct conclusion.
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MindTheGap
473 posts
Jan 09, 2015
1:09 AM
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Superbee - Re you point about forums, I remember during the original discussion of the beginners thread, it was said that some of the now-experienced contributors remembered when they were green and valued chatting with their peers. And that they had all moved on together.
I think it's pretty conventional stuff to suggest that when learning anything, a dialogue between peers is valuable and normal. I mean in addition to receiving wisdom handed down from teachers or other experienced people.
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SuperBee
2318 posts
Jan 09, 2015
2:56 AM
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yes, some said that..i dont know how many that applied too...there definitely was a clique evident when i started piping up...i think i discovered the forum in 2009 and i just didn't get it. but i think that phenomenon you cited was a natural result of the birth of the forum as an offshoot of adam's you tube (and tradebit) lesson series, which was in current production at the time, so topics were arising from the release of new videos...the forum had a topical driver, rather than the current general 'shared love'...
if you see how the blues harmonica dot com forum works, much of the discussion such as there is, is focussed on David's lessons or how to use the site...there is just a little bit of chat ocassionally...
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jbone
1852 posts
Jan 09, 2015
3:17 AM
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I see plenty of early-on players ask questions here and get a wide range of answers. I've stated more than once that it's a feature I like about this joint, even an old coot can learn stuff just reading the interchanges between fresh new players and those who have had time and education on a topic.
I'd say one big room with a lot of tables is working. Aside from easy access to sale/trade/wtb threads.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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MindTheGap
474 posts
Jan 09, 2015
3:41 AM
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superbee - I don't know how many it applied to either, but all we have to go on is what people have said.
For reference, here is the original discussion about the beginners thread
jbone - Currently, I agree that a handful of beginners are asking questions and on the whole getting a nice welcome and useful answers, but it's not always been the case and as I said in my first post, MBH has gone through some febrile periods. Maybe it's all plain sailing from now on, and I hope so.
That said, it's not all about Q/A. Many things with harmonica, performance, and the history of music don't have precise answers. It is healthy to have dialogue.
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Rontana
17 posts
Jan 09, 2015
4:52 AM
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I’ve been a luthier for about a decade (one of my vices/habits) and am a member of a number of different guitar/mando/dulcimer.CBG forums. Here’s the options I’ve seen . . . re: beginner threads/input/demotion.
1: Beginners not welcome. Everyone is invited to join . . . but a beginner question is often answered with some sort of reference to “why are you bothering experts with your petty concerns; find a teacher.” The result is that beginners either leave, or simply lurk. You end up with pros only, which is okay if that’s what the site owner intends, but it’s a little too elitist/snobby/rude for my tastes. I usually vacate those premises.
2: The site sets up a knowledge base categorized by previous threads of beginner questions. I get this. I generally try and answer beginners (at some point the experts answered me) but I admit it does get old providing the same response to “how do I wire a piezo, basic fretting questions, string-gauge queries, nut-slotting, scale length conundrums, and the ever-present "are Martins better than Nationals" . . and on, and on and on.
There’s a home distillery site that does this. They have a deep archive (with search function) of previous beginner questions. They state, plainly and bluntly at the top of the forum, that beginner input is welcomed . . . but only if you first check the knowledge base. Failure to do that will usually get a surly answer of “check the beginner FAQ before asking us.”
3: The third category has too many beginners. This is true of the primary CGB (cigar box guitar) site, but it makes sense for them as the site is primarily commercially driven by a parts supplier who seeks/relies upon the cash of newbie’s. Most posts are VERY basic, or of the mutual admiration variety (hey . . . listen to my first attempt at “Dark was the Night” on my fretless, 3-string CBG). Too boring for me – I either quit this site or just don’t visit it anymore. It's the exact opposite of option #1.
I find option #2 to be a good compromise. It’s nice having one big forum where beginners/pros interact, but I fully get that too many basic questions from beginners can irk the hell out of the experts. The trick is to make beginners fell involved, and welcomed, without making them feel demoted and shuttled off to the back room that nobody ever visits (because beginners can rarely answer the question of another beginner . . . or more likely . . . they answer it with incorrect info.
That said, unless this form is getting stampeded by questions from folks with basic beginner concerns, I woudn't see much reason to alter it. Change can be good (sometimes), but change just for change's sake doesn't serve a lot of purpose.
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
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MindTheGap
475 posts
Jan 09, 2015
5:30 AM
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Rontana - These are good observations, and I've experienced similar things on other forums. However, MBH is not organised technically around subject groups, sub-headings, easy searching, Q/A etc. Adam has stated that he's not wanting to change the technology.
MBH has more the flavour more of an on-going conversation, and there are many topics that are deeper and more interesting than simple Q/A. I like it exactly for that reason and read it often. But the conversation is largely between more experienced players. Yes, it could between anyone at any level, but it isn't.
It's a mistake to assume that beginners don't know anything and can't help each other along. Often they (we) are closer to the point of discovery and there is value in sharing the process of learning rather than just being shown the distant endpoint. They are often are taking lessons so can pass on guidance.
I think Nate's wiki idea - which would be fantastic - would fit your Knowledge Base thing for those looking for specific answers to questions. But that's not the same as a group of people moving forward and learning together.
Not all musicians (at any level) just want find out facts. They might want to chew the cud about something they like, share a eureka moment, express their joy at finding some piece of music, express their frustration without expecting to receive quick fixes. This is the human stuff. For instance when you solve your TB problem, I'd like to hear about it and how you did it - complete the story rather just a question plus multiple answers.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 09, 2015 5:31 AM
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Cotton
33 posts
Jan 09, 2015
5:32 AM
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I have to agree with most of the comments above. As a fairly new player (2 years) I believe I gain a lot by just reading about new to me concepts. On moving the "For Sale" thread --I would keep it where it is. On another web site I frequent (Motorcycle Riding) they moved the "For Sale" to another page. Had a large easy to see link. Much of the buying dropped off. The only people that went there were the people Looking for something. A lot of items that are sold are impulse, you just happen across a good deal, not really looking. We would loose that if the for sale is on another page or forum.
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florida-trader
592 posts
Jan 09, 2015
8:03 AM
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Let me begin by saying that I have personally benefited from being an active member of this forum over the past three years as much or more than anyone. I have improved my technique. I have learned about how to better blend with other musicians. I’ve learned about amps. I’ve learned about mics. I’ve learned about effect pedals. I’ve learned about issues dealing with studios, club owners, GUS and the list goes on and on. This forum has helped me so much that I was recently invited to join a Christian rock band and am having the time of my life. In ways, I am the poster child of what this forum is all about. In addition, I happen to have a business that offers products and services to the harmonica community and I have been blessed by the support of many of the members of this forum. So from a purely selfish point of view I am inclined to say , “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”
That said, I have frequent conversations with my harmonica merchandising brethren and it seems that everyone is re-evaluating their business model and is tweaking it to make it better. Evidently Adam, you are in this same mode, which is a good thing. You don’t want to become stagnant. So I understand your motivation for looking in this direction.
Moving on. I think that it would be logistically difficult to separate the “For Sale” side of things on this forum from the “Beginner’s Page” or from the “General Conversation”. So many of the solutions to the problems or questions posed involve someone offering their services. Whether it is reed replacement or customization or a custom comb or advice about mic elements. Many of the experts in these areas are guys who are actually in that business. In my mind it would be difficult for us to participate in a conversation without offering a solution and very often the solution involves some sort of transaction. I’m struggling with exactly how to make that point. I think that those of us who offer harmonica related products and services on this forum do a good job of being active contributing members so that we are not trying to sell something to you every time we post a comment. That would be a huge turn-off. But it is an integral part of who we are and to try to separate that would difficult – plus I’m not sure that’s what people would want. Would we want Steve Baker or Brendan Power to be more or less anonymous posters on this forum leave the credibility that is attached to their world class reputations at the door? Perhaps not the best analogy but we are who we are and it would be very difficult to fully participate in a forum with half your personality tied behind your back. I dunno – just rambling a bit here fishing for the right words…………………
We do have an annual For Sale thread which most guys know how to use. And if a new member comes on to this forum and their first post is something for sale, that is useful information – assuming that we are somewhat of a family that seeks to support one another.
I do agree with what others have said about a separate Beginner’s Page. If you or I are not beginners, would we be inclined to frequent that page? In a manner of speaking you would be removing the so-called beginners from the very environment that has the expertise built in to it that is capable of answering the questions. And where do you draw the line? What is a beginner question and what is an advanced question? Who’s going to take the time to supervise which question should be asked on which forum? It seems you are adding an ambiguous variable that would confuse the issue and perhaps discourage participation. It would probably be a lot more work than a participative forum but what about a FAQ page for beginners? Guys like Pat Missin have great content that is not interactive but is often cited as a reference source.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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WinslowYerxa
753 posts
Jan 09, 2015
8:35 AM
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I've always believed that the one-room schoolhouse format has great value. You can absorb or at least become aware of information and concepts that prepare you for future development. And more advanced players will be aware of beginners' concerns, and will be available to help them in the course of their other activities, without having to take the trouble to go off their usual course to interact with beginners.
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Winslow
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 09, 2015 2:24 PM
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MindTheGap
476 posts
Jan 09, 2015
8:40 AM
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What I find difficult to understand about these comments is the fear that any trying any change is bound to fail, and not just fail, but fail with dire consequences. Or that any changes will have to be heavily policed with an added burden on the moderators. Or that there would be confusion about who was a beginner or who could post where. The same arguments were put last time, and proved not to be problems. Actually what happened was that out of the small group of beginners, at least one moved abroad and out of contact, the others started happily posting in the main forum and the thing withered away. No dire consequences.
Thing is I can understand both sides of the argument, what I can't grasp is the certainty that anyone knows what will/won't work out before trying it.
Is MBH the best it can be? Given all choices, would you choose this format and structure?
I'll also point out the hopefully obvious thing that the people writing here are a self-selecting sample. If Adam wants to reach a wider audience then ought to have to have everyone's support in trying things that are not limited to the wishes of the current users.
Since we are talking adages, I'll throw in Henry Ford's 'If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses'.
However, looks like the consensus is firmly pointing towards keeping the status quo. Well, whatever happens, personally I'll keep on reading it, it's great!
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Kingley
3804 posts
Jan 09, 2015
8:45 AM
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I do think that the one room forum is a good idea for the reasons stated by people above. After thinking about it, I also understand and agree with Tom's point on the separation of vendor and posts. I do however think that the removing of items from the For Sale and For Barter threads after a set time period or when the item(s) is/are sold or bartered is simply one of common sense, purely from a good housekeeping point of view if nothing else.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jan 09, 2015 8:46 AM
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MindTheGap
477 posts
Jan 09, 2015
8:48 AM
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Winslow - I agree with that. MBH has got it by happy accident of the technology, as most other forums I interact with have a lot more structure. It's normally built into the software so people use it - probably without even considering putting everything into one big pot. And it's true that there is downside to having things separated into different areas.
I have to mention again though that there aren't actually many beginners posting their concerns vs the large number of hits (readers) I believe it gets. I don't have access to the stats, so I'm only going by observation.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 09, 2015 8:49 AM
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SuperBee
2319 posts
Jan 09, 2015
11:55 AM
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There aren't many posters of any type, compared to the large number of hits the site gets.
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BronzeWailer
1569 posts
Jan 09, 2015
12:34 PM
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I like the MBH as it is: an interesting attic full of new stuff and also dusty treasures. I don't know that the cut-off for "beginner" is. I am happy to revisit any topic because I might not have understood properly the first time I came across it, for whatever reason. I think SuperBee is right; many more people read threads than comment on them. I know because if I post a vid I will get maybe 4-5 comments but dozens of more hits than usual on YT.
That said, if it is relatively easy and doesn't cost too much to create a beginner's forum, it might be a worthwhile experiment.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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kudzurunner
5233 posts
Jan 09, 2015
12:49 PM
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Thanks for your great posts, everybody.
I haven't counted up the Yeas and Nays, but my gut sense is that quite a few people (although by no means all) think that a "Stuff for Sale" forum would be worth trying, while far fewer seem inclined to vouch for a beginner's forum.
The problem here, of course, is what social scientists call "selection bias." It may be that some perceived lack of openness and friendliness to beginners on this forum has driven some of them away and/or led them to be leery of voicing their opinions here. It would be a self-fulfilling prophecy indeed if this thread got responses mostly from non-beginners who said, "Nah, I wouldn't create a beginner's forum." That would hardly be fair, would it?
I'm inclined to start by creating a For-Sale forum in the near future, which may have the effect of clearing slightly more space in the regular forum for beginners.
I'm also inclined, frankly, to trust that selection bias is at least partially in effect in the postings so far, and to think seriously of creating a beginner's forum at some point in the future, after seeing what effect a For Sale forum has on the main forum.
In other words, I'm inclined to change one thing at a time and see what happens.
Those are just my thoughts for now. I'll reread this entire thread this evening. (I may even create a For Sale forum this evening. Depends on whether the Martini is particularly frosty......)
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jan 09, 2015 12:51 PM
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Pistolcat
752 posts
Jan 09, 2015
1:38 PM
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A very nice debate going here. MTG - I am glad to see your posts. I've been missing them for a while. I have been lurking a lot myself lately... A lot of MBH's attraction to me has been the busyness of the front page. Threads and posts seemed to grow every minute. Sometimes threads quickly went to the second page but when a lot of new threads sprouted a lot of posts happened in the threads were the discussion was already going.
I feel as if the busyness has abated som, part of it as a result of Frank's suspension but it started before it, I think. Or maybe it's just me?
Anyhow, I would hate to see the beginners go to a seperate forum.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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florida-trader
593 posts
Jan 09, 2015
2:20 PM
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Adam - point well made with regard to the message it would send if we collectively vetoed the Beginners Page.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Billfish89
16 posts
Jan 09, 2015
2:38 PM
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thanks Adam - good question!
Weighing in a little late, (but it's still early here on the West coast)
I see some advantages to a beginner's page. I would use it if there was a separate page for Beginners.
However, If push came to shove, I'd keep the beginner site as part of the main page. The advice and input I heard from this forum has helped me quite a bit! I'd rather risk asking a redundant question once or twice than risk missing out on great advice from experienced members.
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Frank101
53 posts
Jan 09, 2015
3:20 PM
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I look in on a couple of music boards that have a "Beginners" forum.
What I see is that non-beginners don't post there much, and ALSO that beginners often ignore it and post on the main forum anyway.
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Shaganappi
133 posts
Jan 09, 2015
3:33 PM
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MBH is a great site in many ways just the way it is but really old stuff will not easily be accessible other than searches eventually. A wiki now as opposed to doing same 10 years later would be better imo and could be a fantastic resource for beginners and advanced players alike. So then a separate forum would not be necessary ...
This could shift the problem of linking info to a more central spot onto the shoulders of many as opposed to a select few. Even if the Wiki simply stated the links to relevant posts and gave a brief summary could work.
But as said, this route could be a bigger endeavour than I know about. I don't know how hard it would be.
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nacoran
8212 posts
Jan 09, 2015
4:29 PM
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Kingly, I kind of like the old posts in the for sales thread. It's a wallet safe way of satisfying G.A.S. You get to see pretty toys without having to spend on it.
I think it may also have some archival value. If I decide to sell an amp I can look through the old posts and see what similar amps are selling for.
That said, I can understand that it gets crowded. On a separate forum the newest stuff would be posted first which would seem to be the best of both worlds.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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shadoe42
311 posts
Jan 09, 2015
4:56 PM
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I like the idea of a beginners forum for what was mentioned earlier. A place for people starting out to discuss their experiences and discoveries. But I would not want the existence of that forum to cause the "welcome" here to lessen.
I also agree that right now this forum is in a nice downturn of the "BS" that I have seen over the years. I tend to just lurk mostly because of some of the vitriol that gets tossed here I see as very unneeded. As evidenced by my post count vs registered date haha.
And my fear is if there was a beginner forum suddenly it would be..don't post here you have a place go be with your own kind.
Nor would I like to see non beginners not allowed into said forum. One of the things I saw with the beginners thread was it was unclear if someone more advanced could post. In fact at least at the start the intent was that they not, which also limits.
A for sale forum is a grand idea cause man I hate trying to keep up with that thread haha.
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Dr. Rev. Mr. Cheeks Miller
My Electronic Music World
Last Edited by shadoe42 on Jan 09, 2015 4:56 PM
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MindTheGap
478 posts
Jan 10, 2015
1:08 AM
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Pistolcat - Thank you for the positive words there.
Frank101 - Good observations. But (to repeat) it's clear that the current arrangement hasn't resulted in many beginners posting on MBH. So the worst that can happen is that the beginners who currently don't post in the main forum don't post in the beginner's forum either.
It may be that beginners don't want to post much and (as had been said) their needs are met by reading the chat of the experienced players. I don't actually know and neither does anyone else - it's all conjecture and won't be resolved by discussion. There's only one way to tell, and that's to try something different for a bit.
Tom (florida-trader) I think it's great that you have had such a positive experience and now have a place to advertise your services, and I like reading about them and all the other small outfits that provide goods and services. I interpreted the For Sale forum as something to replace unwieldy for-sale thread rather than a mechanism to banish anything commercial from the main forum.
A440 - I agree that having a clear objective is best. Since florida-trader has helpfully sharpened the debate by stating his wishes in terms of his interests, I'll state mine. I want to be able to have a easy, good natured dialogue with other learners, which doesn't always have to be a direct question or delivering some gem of information - new to me but that the experienced players have heard already.
The technical toolset is limited - that's the deal on the table. It's either keep things as they are or try a beginner's forum. There may be other ways to change things that don't involve a technical change. For instance, Adam recently asked beginners specifically what their current problems are and what they would like to see in a new paid-for lesson. That got folks writing.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 10, 2015 1:14 AM
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Harmlessonica
9 posts
Jan 18, 2015
2:57 AM
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Hey all,
I appreciate this thread might have run its course, but just thought I'd chime in with my own experience and thoughts (coming from, I presume, the kind of member this site is hoping to attract more of).
First off, my thanks to Adam and everyone here for making this site what it is today.
A little background... My initial learning a few months back was through books, then YouTube lessons. When I got to the stage where I felt I needed to get advice using an online forum, I tried searching for a suitable site to call 'home'.
What I found was that there were some sites with beginner questions with hardly any replies; others (tacked onto a teaching site) where the site owner would reply to a question with "Yes, the answer to your question is covered in lesson #101 - available to paid members only"; and others with the whole gamut of Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced sub-forums, which can cause confusion as to where to post. I do consider myself a beginner, but not a 'raw' beginner as they say. In those sites, a user might be inclined to cross-post over different forums which would be annoying for all and counter-productive.
That's why this place intrigued me, I like the simplicity of a single forum and it certainly gets the traffic people hope for when posting threads. Conversely, since signing up here, I feel I've even been able to contribute to threads which might not be considered suitable for a 'Beginners Forum'. So had there been a separate forum, I would have stayed there and not ventured to those threads.
I first came across this site a couple of months ago, and - with there being no search facility - went through page after page of threads to glean any useful information. I didn't sign up and post straight away - the following points illustrate why.
There are certainly some technical reasons why this site is less welcoming for beginners than it could be - but as I understand, that's not about to change.
There are also, in my opinion, some practical and aesthetic reasons why this site is less user-friendly than it could be - but then I'm a graphic designer by trade, so I guess that's to be expected.
However, I reckon there are some fairly simple steps that could be taken which would have encouraged me to post sooner and might increase posts from other beginners.
For starters, whilst we can't have sticky posts, it should be fairly easy to have a few regular hyperlinks just above the forum threads, linking to useful threads, etc. The Wiki idea someone mentioned would also be great to have there at some point in the future.
In my opinion, the main - and simplest - thing to change though, would be the introductory text above the forum.
For one thing, it's way too long. Many visitors will see a huge block of text and not even bother reading it. There's a wonderful 'Beginners Welcome!...' statement that I completely missed the first time I came to the site. This paragraph should be used at the end of the section, maybe even separated and stylised to stand out more. It should perhaps also be expanded to show that this forum can be helpful to anyone, regardless of the style of music you want to play (this site has an emphasis on becoming a 'Serious Blues Player', but many players starting out just want to play simple melodies).
Secondly, the text which on other sites is a single line disclaimer (board rules, etiquette etc) is almost a half page here - using big bold or underlined text. I do appreciate the good intentions, but I think this has the effect of scaring away newcomers - it seems to imply that this forum is a hotbed of redneck thugs, just waiting to ambush the next stranger unfortunate enough to take the wrong turn into town.
"Please don't be evil." said the man who made a deal with Satan. Heyoooo! :)
I understand that there have been contentious posters in the past, but that's the case with all internet forums. Having more warning text won't stop them, but it might potentially dissuade newcomers from posting. So paring that text down, and ending on a lighter, welcoming note for beginners will definitely improve matters.
Just some of my humble opinions, hope they prove useful.
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MindTheGap
494 posts
Jan 18, 2015
3:58 AM
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Harmlessonica - Good, sensible ideas. The fact that you have had a such a positive experience, and you are writing these things indicates how much things have improved! Hope it continues.
Actually, I don't know for sure that Adam is trying to attract more beginners.
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kudzurunner
5251 posts
Jan 18, 2015
4:52 AM
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Harmlessonica: I'll be happy to consider a drastically revised and much shorter introductory paragraph. I'm also quite sure that at this point, after seven years and despite my literary and editorial talents, I don't have the heart or perspective to know quite how to achieve what you'd like to see there. So I'll make you a deal: please draft the statement that YOU'D like to see and post it in this thread. I'll take a look. If I think it'll work, I'll swap it in and take the current statement out. (Ideally it will retain key elements of the current statement--no religions talk; no nationalist, sexist, or racist talk, etc.)
Mind the Gap: I'm not specifically trying to attract more beginners, but more players in general are always nice; makes for a more open and vigorous conversation. (I'm not seeking to draw anything like a tight circle around the "club". I'm particularly happy to have new voices, new perspectives.)
I do remember quite clearly, however, that this forum BEGAN at the request of a beginner who said "Adam, we'd like to have some place to discuss your YouTube videos--those of us who watch and learn from them." It's probably not apparent, these many years later, that that's how this forum started. It's become something different over the years.
In any case: Mind the Gap, I'm also open at this point to starting a new Beginner's forum--at long as you'll allow me to make you a moderator/administrator (I can give you a second handle, such as Moderator 4 or Mod Who Speaks Softly, whatever you want) with the specific assignment of patrolling that new forum and keeping the peace. If you'd like to do this, please email me off-line and we'll move ahead.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jan 18, 2015 4:53 AM
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atty1chgo
1214 posts
Jan 18, 2015
5:00 AM
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Very late, but I'll comment.
The climate for beginners on the MBH Forum is friendly. There are generally no ogres lurking to discourage comment or posting by beginners. Beginners are safe to wander around, read and absorb the experience and knowledge. That being said, it's a good idea. We should not worry about the inevitable falling off of interest, because in order to have a vigorous beginner's forum, just like to maintain a Ponzi scheme (the only analogy I could think of at 6:57 a.m.), new blood is always needed. Hopefully there are always enough beginners to sustain the interest. Once the beginner's participation trickles down, the forum may atrophy on its own. But the human experience is always about new roads to travel, so I vote Yes.
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Frank101
60 posts
Jan 18, 2015
9:02 AM
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Plenty of beginner/newbie posts are on the forum right now and getting helpful/friendly responses, isolating those posts in a separate forum would be a step backward.
Last Edited by Frank101 on Jan 18, 2015 9:03 AM
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Harmlessonica
14 posts
Jan 18, 2015
2:41 PM
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Hmm... at this point I have to say I'm a little confused as to the goal behind the notion (and now the stated intention) of creating a new forum for beginners (whether it's the goal to attract more/keep them out of the main forum/get rid of that Harmlessonica guy), but I'm happy to support you as best I can. :)
Below is my version of the intro text. I've tried to keep the flavour of the original text, whilst still condensing it grammatically.
I've also changed the registration paragraph in line with my experience (I didn't receive more than one email).
Additionally, the word 'HERE' should link directly to the contact page (sorry I'm not good at hand coding).
Finally, I've omitted the nice 'Beginners welcome!' sentiment as it appears this will not be valid after the new forum is created...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
This forum is a place for the free exchange of thoughts, tips, and useful insights about any and all topics related to blues harmonica--including the harmonica and the blues in general.
Please register if you'd like to be a member - but be aware that since we hand approve each application, you won't be able to log in until you receive an email confirming approval. If you don't hear from us after 48 hours, contact membership HERE.
A quick word about board etiquette: please assume that your fellow board members are well-intentioned and treat them with civility. In this spirit, please refrain from flaming, insulting, or using profanity towards your fellow board members, or from starting threads that seek to encourage that sort of behavior.
Any posted material which constitutes defamation, harassment, or abuse is strictly prohibited. Material that is sexually or otherwise obscene, racist, or otherwise discriminatory is not permitted. Additionally, threads which allude to religion are prohibited and will be deleted.
This forum has a one-warning rule for those who violate this creed. Such members will be suspended or banished at the discretion of the moderators and myself.
All of us share a love for blues harmonica. We come here in that spirit. We strive, no matter how passionately and forcefully we disagree, to remain civil.
As Big Walter once said, Have a good time!
--Adam Gussow (aka, "kudzurunner")
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Fil
16 posts
Jan 18, 2015
5:08 PM
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As a beginner, or early intermediate (?), I'd opt for no new Beginners' Forum. I've posted a couple of beginner questions here that have been addressed timely by more advanced players. I wouldn't expect the pros and advanced guys here to monitor a Beginners' Forum looking for opportunities to answer those questions, tho some surely would. It would be redundant, I'd still come to the original Forum. I don't sense that beginners here slow things down or get in the way or are resented at all. It's been a challenge at times for me to keep up with 'advanced' discussions that occasionally take place, but it's stimulated me to research and dig deeper into the harp world, technically, musically, and historically, learning a lot and gaining inspiration along the way.
fil
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indigo
39 posts
Jan 18, 2015
5:28 PM
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for all the reasons given above i don't see the need/reason,personally,for a beginners forum.compared to past years the daily forum traffic is pretty quiet nowadays(same as on harp -l)
I've never seen a beginner getting any disrespect and i also see answers sometimes(though i am no way a beginner)that help me too.
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