arzajac
1374 posts
May 24, 2014
11:56 AM
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Would anyone be interested in Marine Band combs made with wide holes like the Rocket?
Image from http://www.jakeknowsharmonica.com/rocket
I know lots of folks who prefer Seydel hole spacing while others hate it.
The Rocket seems to be a happy medium between Hohner and Seydel hole space with the Rocket reeds being spaced apart the same as other models but with bigger channels in the comb which makes them easier to reach. I can make MB combs like that if there is interest.
Please express any input you may have on the issue. Thanks!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on May 24, 2014 12:16 PM
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Thievin' Heathen
313 posts
May 25, 2014
6:56 AM
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It is my understanding that the chambers are tapered. Have you considered incorporating that into you comb line?
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arzajac
1376 posts
May 25, 2014
8:00 AM
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Theivin - The Rocket chambers are straight - the tines are thinner which makes the holes wider. I would think tapered would make for better air compression and flow. I made a tapered design and cut some combs last night.
The holes are a little over 40 per cent wider than stock Marine Band. Tongue blocking is comfortable and you can really feel the difference in hole size.
It may not be for everyone. I am not used to it and it makes me play a little sloppy. But I am curious to know how someone who is a die-harp Seydel player would find it.
I am not considering modifying my design across the board but adding this as another option. I am curious if that would be a good thing or a bad thing. Choice is great but sometimes too many options is confusing.
That's a big reason why I'm asking. I value the input.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on May 25, 2014 8:02 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
316 posts
May 25, 2014
8:22 AM
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I was at a Hohner promo last week and they claimed a new chamber design that I could have sworn was tapered. I don't doubt you have a Rocket in your possession and know within .001" what the dimensions are, so where I wonder is the contradiction coming from. I probably misunderstood.
No problem, the rocket is not the direction my Hohner purchases will be going regardless. The Crossover, Thunderbird, and 365 would be my preferences. Getting some of your combs is also on my wish list.
I think there may be an opening in the market for tuning caps. Hint Hint.
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arzajac
1377 posts
May 25, 2014
8:28 AM
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"the rocket is not the direction my Hohner purchases will be going regardless. "
Yes, exactly. I was thinking this could offer Marine Band-type harps like the 1896, Crossover and Deluxe extra-wide holes for those who want it without having to switch harps.
That's another photo from the same source as my first post. Top is a Rocket comb and bottom is SP20.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on May 25, 2014 8:28 AM
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Harpaholic
452 posts
May 25, 2014
1:42 PM
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A great idea! I have at least 8-10 harps, Crossovers SP 20's and MB's that I would love to put Rocket type combs on as long as they where just like a Rocket comb (not tapered).
Last Edited by Harpaholic on May 26, 2014 2:38 PM
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jnorem
233 posts
May 25, 2014
2:17 PM
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Do Rocket combs fit SP20 reed plates?
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Call me J
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Gipsy
68 posts
May 26, 2014
4:34 AM
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I mainly play Gm's all but 2 built on your combs. The other 2 are built on aluminium combs from Tom at Blue Moon harmonicas. They've got a slightly tapered design for the comb tines. I don't really find them any easier or difficult to play compared to non tapered designs. However I've got a couple of MB's which I'm thinking of getting new combs for. I'd be very keen to try the tapered design.
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arzajac
1385 posts
May 28, 2014
5:45 PM
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What I'd like to do is offer a special to those who are willing to try these out. I'd like some solid feedback from players who have actually compared the wider openings with the standard size holes before I start selling combs with them.
If you would like to test one, here's what I am offering:
Order one Marine Band comb. Enter the coupon code "TESTER" upon checkout and get a rebate. Pick the cheapest shipping option and the total will come out to $12.00
For $12 I will send you two combs. One standard design and one exactly the same but with wide openings. I will ask everyone who participates to do an A - B comparison between both combs and provide me with feedback.
If you like them, that's great, but if you hate them, please give me the details. I'm investing my time and resources into this and I need to get the brutal honest truth.
If enough people like them, I will add the "wide hole space" option to some of my combs.
I'll keep the coupon code up and running for a couple of days.
Thanks!
Andrew
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on May 28, 2014 5:46 PM
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Gipsy
69 posts
May 28, 2014
11:41 PM
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Hi Andrew, just wondering if this offer will apply in the UK. I've got a couple of MB's in C that would be ideal for back to back testing.
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arzajac
1387 posts
May 29, 2014
4:25 AM
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Yes, of course!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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isaacullah
2765 posts
May 29, 2014
6:39 AM
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Andrew, will these combs also fit a Special 20? If so, you can count me in as a beta tester... I've got a couple of Seydel Solist Pro's, which have the wider hole spacing. At first it was "weird" for me, since I was almost exclusively playing Marine Bands before I bought the Solist Pro's, but eventually I got used to it. Now I can switch back and forth with no issue. What I'm really interested these days is a souped up Special 20. I've grown out of the brassy sound of marine bands (and their vented covers), and really enjoy the compressed and focused sound of a Special 20. If your tapered combs can *increase* that quality in a Spec 20, then I will be very happy!
PS: To me, the Rocket is a step in the wrong direction. It's a plastic combed marine band now (so some folks are quite happy), but what *I* wanted was a Special 20 "deluxe".
PPS: As a beta-tester, should you want me to, I could try these combs out on Marine Bands in many keys/tunings (G through D), Special 20 in several keys (from Low D through High Eb), Seydel Solist Pro (Low C and Bb minor), Suzuki Harpmaster/Bushman Delta Frost (B Easy Third and Bb Dorian), and Lee Oskar (D Minor, and Bb harmonic minor). I would also offer to test on a Huang silvertone deluxe, but who cares about that? :)
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Last Edited by isaacullah on May 29, 2014 6:40 AM
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1847
1831 posts
May 29, 2014
7:40 AM
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i have never seen a rocket.
a special twenty is a marine band with a plastic comb
so how is that different from the rocket?
is it longer like a ms series harp?
is it just that the holes are beveled?
can someone explain, i am easily confused.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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HarpNinja
3885 posts
May 29, 2014
7:46 AM
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There have been several threads describing the Rocket.
First of all, the only thing in common between the MB and SP20 are the reeds and tuning. The design of the covers, comb, reed plates, and screws are all different.
The Rocket has the same reeds and tuning as the SP20, but the covers, comb, reed plates, and screws are also different.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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isaacullah
2766 posts
May 29, 2014
7:48 AM
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@1847: The Rocket has vented coverplates, which has more to do with the "sound" of a MB than most anything else. Although the Spec 20 is supposed to share the same reed materials and profiles and the same tuning as an MB, the non-vented covers of the Spec 20 radically alter the tone (to my ears much more focused, compressed, and darker) than an MB. Adding side vents to a Spec 20 makes it sound much more like a standard Marine Band. That's fine for folks who want that sound, but is not good for folks who actually prefer the tone of a Spec 20 (like me).
I think it remains to be seen what the effect of the wider slot spacing in the Rocket does. I suspect that any effect of those wider slots is completely masked by the addition of the side vents, which have a fairly radical effect on the tone.
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1847
1832 posts
May 29, 2014
8:18 AM
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a seydel harmonica has wider spacing because it is longer
much like a ms series harp
if i am not mistaken 100 centimeters
what is the measurement on the rocket?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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HarpNinja
3886 posts
May 29, 2014
8:31 AM
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The wider spacing creates a wider resonance chamber. Sjoeberg combs worked with that concept and I've seen combs from other customizers that have done the same thing.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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arzajac
1388 posts
May 29, 2014
8:43 AM
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Isaac - Your enthusiasm is exactly what I am looking for! However, at this point, I need to start with comparing apples with apples; I need to keep this test to Marine Band combs - I already have put in the time to cut a batch and there is only so much time I can devote to this right now.
1847 - The reeds on Seydel harps are spaced farther apart than on MB-type or MS-type harps. The end pieces (to the left of the 1 hole and to the right of the ten hole) are shorter on a Seydel than on MS harps.
The Rocket has wider holes because the dividers (tines) between each hole is thinner. Really thin tines can provide less of a seal and more of a compressible space which can potentially lead to a lesser-powered less-responsive harp. In making my combs with wider mouths, I am tapering the entrance so that the rest of the tine is thick at the base (to provide more surface for air tightness and less compressible volume)
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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arzajac
1389 posts
May 29, 2014
8:52 AM
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Mike - Sjoeberg combs had:
1- Wide hole openings (tapered)
2- Thick tines (lots of surface area and small compressible space at the tips of the reeds.
3- Air chambers at the base of the reed (at the front for the blow reeds and at the back for draw reeds). This does increase compressible space but it does change the resonance characteristics.
I'm taking this one step at a time. Make a change, evaluate. Rinse, repeat...
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on May 29, 2014 8:53 AM
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1847
1833 posts
May 29, 2014
9:04 AM
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what reed plate is being used on the rocket
will a crossover plate fit?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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isaacullah
2767 posts
May 29, 2014
11:26 AM
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No worries, Andrew. If/when you get to the point you want to branch out to various models/brands, give me a shout! :) I'll look forward to the results from the Marine Band tests!
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1847
1834 posts
May 29, 2014
12:32 PM
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i like the idea of a beveled comb
the harrison harmonica is like that.
i would be disappointed if i bought a custom harmonica and that wasn't done.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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isaacullah
2769 posts
May 29, 2014
12:53 PM
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Andrew: just out of curiosity, have you experimented with the slot-width of your combs in general? What I mean is, have you tried various spacings between the tines of the combs? And if so, what is the effect on tone/playability? Your comments about the "compressible" airspace in the chambers got me thinking... All else being equal, I would hypothesize that: less space in the chambers equals + same volume of air being blown/drawn = more compression/faster reed response for the same breath force. Does that logic hold out in actualistic experiments?
I know that one reason NOT to make the tine spacing smaller for aftermarket combs is that the sandwich design makes it much harder to get things lined up right (especially if you only have crappy hand tools) when reassembling the harp, but theoretically, one could make the tine-spacing as narrow as the slot spacing, right? (one would have to compensate for the reed pad at one end, though) I wonder if doing so would have some of the effects of embossing? Just a thought...
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Last Edited by isaacullah on May 29, 2014 12:54 PM
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1847
1839 posts
May 29, 2014
11:09 PM
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some of the older seydels had thicker tines
same spacing smaller holes
some appear to be beveled.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Fishlips
25 posts
May 29, 2014
11:47 PM
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I'm in! Just placed my order and am looking forward to comparing the two combs. I have long suspected that comb material has a negligible effect on tone, but it makes sense that chamber volume, and the degree to which the cover plates are open, will be significant factors.
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HarpNinja
3887 posts
May 30, 2014
5:37 AM
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I am very familiar with Sjoeberg combs. The air chambers at the base of the reed are actually there to allow room for rivets or screws when replacing reeds. The compression ridges were added to create a larger space for for air flow and resonance.
I think there is still a Kinya Pollard article somewhere online that would describe all that too.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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arzajac
1390 posts
May 30, 2014
1:05 PM
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I have reached my quota - thanks! I have turned off the coupon code.
Isaac: I make the slot spaces just wide enough to accommodate valves - no more. That's my practical limit. But it would be possible to make them even thinner to further reduce the volume.
The other way to make the compressible volume smaller is to use a thinner comb. I offer both thinner and thicker combs. But some players find that a significant change in thickness affects embouchure so it's a matter of taste.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on May 30, 2014 1:07 PM
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arzajac
1391 posts
May 30, 2014
1:05 PM
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Double post!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on May 30, 2014 1:06 PM
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Gipsy
72 posts
Jun 07, 2014
1:48 AM
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Combs arrived safely this morning. I'll get them mounted later today and let you know how it goes.
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MP
3227 posts
Jun 07, 2014
11:48 AM
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Andrew,
in your second post the picture of the harp on top of another appears to have all screws and nuts securing the reeds on the top reed plate. I'd assume the bottom too. Does it? Did you build that harp?
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Last Edited by MP on Jun 07, 2014 11:49 AM
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arzajac
1397 posts
Jun 07, 2014
2:51 PM
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Hi Mark.
That's a custom harp that I will be shipping in early July. I swapped out the red wine comb for the photo to offer a visual comparison.
I took off all the blow reeds to make the blow plate airtight. I do that for custom harps, but not my advanced service/Optimized harps (Well... sometimes for advanced service.)
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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Gipsy
73 posts
Jun 11, 2014
4:25 AM
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Hi Andrew. I've had a good old play around with the 2 combs. I've even swopped over the reed plates to eliminate some variation. In all honesty I cant detect any significant differences between the 2 except for when playing an ultra slow glissando, when there is a smoother change from one chamber to the next while using the chamfered tiined comb. In normal playing it's totally unnoticeable.
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sonny3
184 posts
Jun 12, 2014
1:15 PM
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Arzajac, thanks they are both wonderful Combs.You are a true artist.I play marine bands exclusively and I had no problem adapting to the wider hole type.I put them on a pair of marine bands that had been converted from nails to screws.Both played great after switching Combs.I would go for either one again.thanks
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arzajac
1402 posts
Jun 16, 2014
9:00 AM
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Thanks everyone - I am still collecting the feedback and will report back the results once the data is in.
In the meantime, I am already working on the next step. I am tweaking a design to improve tone without sacrificing response.
I feel the consensus is that thinner combs offer better response because there is a smaller compressible volume between your lips and the reeds. But thicker combs offer a larger resonance chamber and some prefer the tone of a thicker comb. Here is not-too-thick comb with enlarged resonance chamber.
Thanks for your interest and stay tuned....
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Jun 16, 2014 9:02 AM
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