robbert
312 posts
May 20, 2014
7:56 PM
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Not to say you have to wait ten years...I had an aim with getting such a good quality instrument. I knew what I was looking for, and that I would benefit from that level of instrument, but it took me over ten years of practicing, playing, gigging to reach that point.
I believe any player, who has some level of breath control, will benefit from a properly set-up instrument as outlined by BBQ Bob and others. As mentioned by Frank, I now find a Xover to be good ottb...but they aren't consistent. They are pretty good, but you still have to adjust them, tinker with them, and if your skills are like mine,that's a lot of damn tinkering.
In terms of time, and quality, and joy of playing, one professionally (customized/optimized)adjusted instrument is easily worth several ootb instruments.
Once again though, it depends on how hard you play.
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harpwrench
860 posts
May 21, 2014
8:15 AM
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Most players want the same thing:) Bends that feel like I've installed frets on the reeds, response to both light and aggressive playing (not one or the other), an even feel and timbre, hole-to-hole and harp-to-harp. Like I asked before, what's so special about a certain style that requires deviation from that. OB/OD players can occasionally be challenging, but even then the appropriate Stage II or III covers 99% of my customers with no special accomodation.
Nevertheless on my contact page I plainly request information about how you play. I also provide a phone number and email and am happy to communicate when someone is left with questions after taking the time to read the site.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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yonderwall
67 posts
May 21, 2014
7:36 PM
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Hi Joe. I don't know if this helps or not. I see you say "I was just wondering how something with slightly less resolution would go over" [compared to current Stage I] and "All I'm after is a feel for the livable price in our current economy that more players can tolerate for a bangin' harp that delivers on my reputation."
Given the above, my answer would be $135. ($140? - perhaps). It's interesting. I can see myself eventually getting sucked into the $175 Stage I lifestyle, but not diving in at that price. Hope that helps.
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harpwrench
861 posts
May 22, 2014
8:34 AM
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What started this was the increase in Hohner harp prices. I raised mine too, about 6 weeks ago, since I already ate the last one. Just wanted to bring my $$ per hour back in line. Orders literally stopped like you flipped off a light switch. After a lot of stressing over it, I've decided it's better to accept 5 bucks an hour less than build harps that are anything less than my best work. So I put my pricing generally back to where it was, with some tweaking on comb options for MB's. I can't cut pricing as much as some would need me to in order to buy in to the idea. For those all I can say is that I do offer very prompt and courteous repairs, and you're guaranteed not to have to buy multiple harps to get a great one. Sometimes custom harmonicas actually work out to be cheaper in the long run when you do the math. I do plan to have some ready to go Stage I SP20's in the future, and will mention it on the for sale page when that happens. Thanks for the input.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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Slimharp
333 posts
May 22, 2014
9:09 AM
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I have been playing harp since 1967. Joe's harps are the best I have ever played. You get what you pay for in this case.
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nacoran
7759 posts
May 22, 2014
12:59 PM
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If it's the Hohner price increase, maybe you could break that out in the price? You could say:
Marine Band $XX
Labor $XX
Total $XX
That might make people less queasy about a price hike. Of course, maybe you can't contractually say what you are paying wholesale?
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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harpwrench
862 posts
May 22, 2014
2:53 PM
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It's basicslly as easy as that for hobbyists, but not when it's the sole means of income. I don't have a 100k a year job like another customizer to pay for my house, lights and propane. In other words the costs of doing legitimate business are a lot deeper than just the parts, and constantly rise with inflation as well. If I had done my homework a lot better I might still be working for the man. But yeah I'm not allowed to say anyway. Take the price of a custom SP20 and subtract the street price, that's my theoretical labor charge. Actual time spent varies greatly depending on the severity of problems I address as noted earlier.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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HarpNinja
3880 posts
May 23, 2014
8:19 AM
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I don't make near 100k, but as someone who loves harmonica (and tinkering) and works full time, I at least understand a little bit of Joe's point (but agree with it 100%).
People don't really realize what it takes to run a small business like Joe is ("small" is misleading). It is way easier to be a hobbyist - and I know that first hand. The only real con is time...it is hard to juggle a full-time job with a part-time one and have energy for R&D and learning new things.
It has been said before, but the profit made by a customizer like Joe isn't what it should be in an ideal world and the market dictates that. You're on call 24/7 and trying to make everyone happy, and on and on. I know people choose these things, and no one is forcing someone to go on the road, or customize, or whatever, but my point is - it ain't easy!
I've posted this sort of math before, but let's assume someone is trying to live off half the number Joe referenced, say $50,000:
$150 custom harp
-$50 overhead (which is way to low in most cases)
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$100 profit
$50,000/100=500
You'd have to build and sell 500 harps a year to make $50,000 a year (before taxes, etc.).
If you work 365 days a year, that is more than a harp a day (assume 6-8hrs a harp in work time, although that has to be spread out over time...can't really build a full harp in a day).
If you work a more regular schedule of say 260 days a year, that is 2 harps a day on average!
That doesn't take into consideration any other costs such as tools, web site fees, or anything...just straight cost of harp and shipping.
INSANE!
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
Last Edited by HarpNinja on May 23, 2014 8:19 AM
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HarpNinja
3881 posts
May 23, 2014
8:31 AM
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I also understand if you build to order you can track cash out in real time, but you also have the issue of balancing deadlines whether you take a deposit or not. You also endanger everyone booking and collecting money too far out in the event something falls through (ex. Chris Michalek).
Joe - not that my opinion should matter to you, but take a few bucks less to keep orders coming is a better choice than reducing the quality of the harmonicas. Life is too short, and you do have bankable talents elsewhere. If you end up having to build less harps for some reason, it is the world's loss, and not yours.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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Moon Cat
398 posts
May 23, 2014
10:00 AM
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A few months ago I found this rare Hohner Jubilee Harmonica on ebay in mint. It was made for one year in 1982 to commerate Hohner's 125th year anniversary. Although I am a well known and grateful Suzuki endorsee and fan, I couldn't pass up on bidding on a harmonica I had never seen before! I also knew I would be unable to place it on a shelf like a collector, it had to be played, so I had it shipped from England directly to the great Joe Spiers for complete customization! I fancy myself an OK customizer but would't dare touch this beauty or many others like it in the past, they go straight to Joe. What I wasn't prepared for was how humbled I would be by Joe's amazing work YET AGAIN! I now cannot stand my own customization skills after seeing and hearing whats possible. It has been four years since I sold all my old precious Joe Spiers harmonicas on ebay for dope and today I feel truly blessed to be sober and have another opportunity yet again to own one of these amazing instruments. No Joe Spiers harmonica will ever leave me for any amount of money! I didn't think it possible, but Joe's work has improved immensely in the last four years. Overblows and overdraws all the way up are effortless and pop in and out with precision and speed that is as fast as I can play them. Every half step bend is like a fret on a guitar neck (locks in) and falls into place perfectly, intune with no effort. The chords are rich and lush, there is quite simply not one other man on planet Earth making harmonicas of this quality. There is no reason in the world, if you have the money, that anyone should not order a custom harmonica from Joe Spiers. Joe is a thoughtful, attentive, caring, genius and we harmonica players are so so lucky to be alive at the same time as him and have access to his work! Go to Joe's site today and order a mess of harps before he gets too backed up again! Pictures of that harp are on my face book, I'm paying 325.00 for the harp and haven't given it a second thought, I'm poor can't tour and in ruff shape financially but that little piece of gold is worth EVERY penny and then some. We can never pay Joe what he's worth, but God bless him for even asking how he can help on this subject!!!. http://spiersharmonicas.com/ sincerely- Jason Ricci
Last Edited by Moon Cat on May 23, 2014 10:13 AM
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groyster1
2605 posts
May 23, 2014
10:34 AM
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a very deserving tribute....nothing but very satisfied customers....my stage 1 sp20 is awesome
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nacoran
7768 posts
May 23, 2014
11:46 AM
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I know they are hard to come by, but another way to get a premium is with those rarer eBay harps- the pre-wars, and such.
I'm not a businessman, but every now and then I hear a piece of business advice and it sticks in my brain. One thing I heard was advice for a small store. Keep adding products and see what sticks, as long as they are all quality. Dannecker has custom covers. Blue Moon has painted covers and great colored combs. Arzajak had environmentally sound combs that are more durable than corian. Turboharp sells glow in the dark key labels, magnetic slides, sonic cleaners, Turbolids... Some of those things cost more than just the standard model, and some of them are things you can do in shop and some are things you might have to outsource. There are shops for related products that will drop ship for you if you put a widget on your site. You never stock the item, but you take the order and get a cut. As long as you do a little research to make sure they are a good partner it's a way to make a little extra cash based on the fact that people come to your site for harmonica related stuff. What volume would Hohner need to stamp some covers with your logo? I don't know. Quality t-shirts with your logo are advertising and if you outsource it you never touch that portion of the business, and it builds the brand, and leaves you with time for what you actually enjoy.
At least that's the sales pitch. CVS pharmacy sells medication, but they also sell candy bars. (They recently decided not to sell cigarettes because they thought it conflicted with their core business of making people healthy. There will be a fight if they come for my candy bars!!!) lol.
I had a family member who used to run a small business. He would ship foodstuffs to prisoners. Most people in prison have to pay 2-3x retail for stuff at the commissary, so even with shipping he was able to undercut those prices and make a profit. He could have made a killing if he'd decided to sell cigarettes, but he refused. (Eventually he decided it wasn't worth the trouble- the guards owned the commissaries and would rough up his packages, but that's another story). The point is, he didn't want his brand associated with cigarettes and he kept control of his brand, but he was always expanding his catalog to include things within his brand to make more money, because, for the most part, selling things wasn't the work. (He didn't use drop shipping, the internet hadn't taken off at that point). For him, the work was the buying and shipping. For you, the work could be maintaining the brand with quality harps and finding a few other items that could bring in more markup.
(Sadly, I don't think they let prisoners have harmonicas anymore.)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Frank
4336 posts
May 23, 2014
12:16 PM
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Hey, Jason's praise and endorsement of Joe's work is certainly a great advertisement, reassuring anyone who comes to Joe for harmonicas is going to be treated to the best of the best service and product.
But the reason I made a purchase today from Joe is because he got the big YES from Joe Filisko- stamping his efforts as worthy to be associated with his name.
I needed to try one of Mr. Spiers harps before I die...
You don't have to pay the whole fee upfront...
Pay half and the rest when the harp is done.
So I only had to cough up $81.50 and since there is a wait time of months I have plenty of time to save for the other half.
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Harpaholic
451 posts
May 24, 2014
8:30 AM
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Joe, do you have any plans to add additional harps to your current lineup?
I really like the over sized holes of the Rocket comb and would definitely order a couple of Stage I Rockets if they where available.
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Ugly Bones Ryan
69 posts
May 24, 2014
3:07 PM
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Joe honestly I want to pay for reed work more than anything else. I don't need rounded edges on my combs or opened cover plates, some of that stuff I can do myself. What I need so desperately are my overblows to be solid (which is available on your stage 2 harps). Now granted, the extra work for extra price isn't stopping me from saving up for one of your beautiful harps but I want reedwork more than anything else. However, allowing customers to send in their own harps and allowing them to use stock combs instead of your black composites was a great idea, superb.
Sincerely,
Ugly Bones Ryan
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harpwrench
949 posts
Dec 23, 2014
7:30 AM
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I decided to try something that may work for some of the players out there who've had concerns over deposits, or feel they cost a little too much.
Edit: Cancelled the "workhorse" idea due to lack of interest.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
Last Edited by harpwrench on Feb 01, 2015 12:59 PM
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jiceblues
364 posts
Dec 23, 2014
8:32 AM
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Don't miss the point that a harp prepared by a good tech lasts a VERY long time , because you can play it effortless , just like a breeze .
It is louder and the tone is much better , it is a dream .I have a two years old JOE SPIERS SP20 stage one in A .
Still plays like a dream and i use it a lot .
If one day a reed brakes or goes flat , i send it to a tech , the service is affordable .
I won't order another from JOE because of the shipping cost (i'm french) , but i wanted to try one custom harp and i'm not disapointed .From now on , i send my harps to a french harp tech for repair &tweaking , and it's worth the price .All my working harps are good , i can count on them .
And , talking of prices , do you know the cost of playin' sax ? (just one) : price of instrument , repair , adjust , it's a fortune .
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FreeWilly
443 posts
Dec 23, 2014
8:51 AM
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I understand that it's a business. I understand that better harps in general might be accomplished by getting almost perfect harps to more players.
Still I feel that it would be nice if true craftsman could focus on top notch work all the time. And focus on teaching others. Money/characters sometimes make this difficult, but still. Just my gut-response to the question of the OP (which I missed).
To nuance that: On the other hand I think it is great when someone like Joe Spiers is not saying: I'm the best and should only do top work, but does what he has to do to be able to make a living customizing harps. I hope it works out!
Same thing with top players using sub-par harps btw.
If I hit the lottery new years eve I'll definitely get my order in line for a good custom harp! Either with Joe or with someone on this continent.
Merry Christmas everyone!
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JustFuya
669 posts
Dec 23, 2014
11:40 AM
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I like the idea of a middleman that delivers what Hohner can't ... a guaranteed properly tuned and gapped OOTB harp from a craftsman with whom it's a pleasure to do business. You are not getting a harp of lesser quality. You are getting a top notch harp that exceeds the needs of many, if not most, harp players. Optimization for OBs & ODs is an accessory that not everyone requires.
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Kingley
3786 posts
Dec 23, 2014
12:03 PM
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The workhorse setup sounds like a really great idea Joe. I've no doubt it'll be a big success and you'll be kept busy building them.
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barbequebob
2798 posts
Dec 23, 2014
1:21 PM
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Joe, what you're offering is essentially a much less expensive introduction towards a custom harp for someone who hasn't got/doesn't want to spend the money for a fully customized instrument. The only quesstion here is that are you planning to use the original stock tunings or tune them any way the customer wishes. This to me looks more like a substantial upgrade to the Hohner artist set up that Hohner currently offers.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Destin
91 posts
Dec 24, 2014
4:47 PM
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I'm gonna go with what justfuya said. If u could do $100 harps I would buy them all day starting ASAP, and to be honest I wouldn't even need holes 1-10. Really just 4,5 and six OB and a lot of work on the 7 over draw and I would be good to go.
If anyone can make this happen email me at onsetmusic@gmail.com and let's do it.
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walterharp
1569 posts
Dec 24, 2014
8:47 PM
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fwiw, i have several of joe's harps, stage II and stage III. and some from other customizers as well as some years of weak attempts by myself. his harps totally kick ass. nothing else is really close, they keep on going and deliver under demanding gig conditions in addition to more controlled practice sessions. the fact is that joe has priced his time out, and his time is way more valuable than most other customizers. yes, you can get one for $100 from somebody else, but you get what you pay for.. if you blow out reeds regularly, then his harps are not for you, if you have progressed to the point where reeds go less frequently and you can tell the difference between a good out of the box harp and a truly exceptional one out of the box, then you would be happy with one of joe's harps.. they are as good or better than that 1 in 10 out of the box upper price level harps.. every time, every one you get from him. so if you have the scratch, give it a try.
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Ugly Bones Ryan
128 posts
Dec 25, 2014
10:41 AM
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Often my problem with customs is a I don't need new hardware or a new comb. I just want reedwork done like overblows, better bends, etc. So you could probably bring the prices down by just doing reedwork on some.
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harpwrench
951 posts
Dec 25, 2014
7:43 PM
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Destin there's a seller on eBay from Russia that can hook you up. Ryan I do offer reedwork only. Bob the tuning options are same as the rest. 19-limit JI default if customer doesn't specify. Edit- thanks walterharp-
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
Last Edited by harpwrench on Dec 25, 2014 7:44 PM
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PropMan
31 posts
Dec 25, 2014
8:11 PM
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After years of playing out of the box Hohners (Marine Bands mostly but some Special 20s and lately Crossovers and one T-Bird), I decided to treat myself to a couple of Joe's Stage one marine bands. I don't overblow except the 6OB once in a while in a couple of pat licks, so the stage ones sounded perfect for me. I play 2nd position blues 90% of the time and tongue block everything except some licks with a lot of blow bends.
You know when you get one of those 1 in 25 Marine Bands that's just kicks ass right out of the box? Well, Joe's Stage One Marine Band is like that only about TWICE as good. Effortless spot on bends - it's crazy how good these harps play. It's taking a while to get totally used to the T-Bird cover plates- they feel so darn thick- but I'm starting to actually dig them.
I just ordered two more and as time and cash permits I'll probably end up with a mess of them. I don't really deserve harps this good. I'm not much of a player and I need all the help I can get and Joe's harps help A LOT.
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A440
277 posts
Dec 26, 2014
12:21 AM
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i have toyed with the idea of springing for a custom harp from joe spiers or richard sleigh. i would be fine with a 3-6 month turnaround time. it's just difficult to justify spending that kind of money, as my budget is tight. and i fear it would be hard to buy just one, once i experienced a custom harp...
Last Edited by A440 on Dec 26, 2014 12:23 AM
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Kingley
3787 posts
Dec 26, 2014
9:07 AM
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Having played a few lower level custom harps owned by friends and having customised my own harps for a number of years now. I know some of what's involved in making a harp play the way you want it too. I must say that I have nothing but admiration and respect for the work that people like Joe do. They are true craftsmen and I have learnt a lot from them over the years. If I had the money I certainly wouldn't hesitate to get a set of Joe Spiers harps. They are without a doubt worth every single penny.
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Barley Nectar
588 posts
Dec 26, 2014
11:29 AM
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Here is what bugs me about "Custom". My guess is they wear out as fast as stock harps. So, if it is a common key, the harp is done in a couple of yrs...)<:
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hvyj
2616 posts
Dec 26, 2014
12:39 PM
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Not true. I've got a set of custom GM's from Joe and after 3 years of hard use there was one reed replacement on my very heavily used C harp which, after the repair, (together with the other 12 harps in the set)is still going strong.
The way I look at it is that my performing set of harps is my instrument. What does a quality guitar or sax cost? You get what you pay for and I certainly feel like I'm getting my money's worth.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 26, 2014 12:43 PM
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Gnarly
1192 posts
Dec 26, 2014
7:25 PM
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Every harmonica will break, if you do the wrong thing to it (usually one of two things, playing too hard or sending the reed notes it can't play). A custom harp should play just as well as it did before you broke it, after you replace the reed.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 26, 2014 10:34 PM
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florida-trader
581 posts
Dec 26, 2014
7:28 PM
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When I first started hanging out on harmonica related websites about 6 years ago Marine Bands were selling for about $22.00 each if memory serves me correctly. I also remember a lot of complaints about poor quality. At $22.00 each, for the average guy, they were probably still regarded as not worth fixing as opposed to buying a new harp. Hohner began raising prices every 6 months or so and Marine Bands today retail for about $40.00. But the quality has also gotten lots better. Add a custom comb and/or some reed work – whether you do it yourself or you pay someone like Joe to do it - and you’re starting to get into some money. They can no longer be considered “throw-away” items. If you have $150 - $200 tied up in a harp it would behoove you to look at it as a long-term investment. This is a harp that you’re going to be playing for a long long time. Reeds fatigue and break but they can be fixed for under $20.00. Covers get crushed but there is no shortage of Marine Band (or other models) covers floating around. There are plenty of techs who will service your treasures for a very reasonable price and if you are at all handy there is an abundance of information available on YouTube on how to maintain your harps.
What Joe is offering here is another way to help players get into better instruments. Better harps open musical doors for you that you might not discover for years (or maybe never) playing OOTB harps. You don’t have to play them as hard because they are way more responsive making it less likely that you will blow out reeds. And at the risk of being redundant, if you invest some do-re-mi in them you will probably take better care of them because they are – well – more valuable. In the long run, it is entirely possible that you will save money by investing in quality instruments and taking care of them. It changes your entire mentality. Just my 2 cents.
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Goldbrick
807 posts
Dec 26, 2014
10:27 PM
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What would be nice is for a manufacturer to build a consistently playable out of the box harp. I am sure for a couple of bucks more they could sell a " blueprinted " harp
Harps are unique instruments that you dont get to try before you buy. You shouldnt have to send it off for 6 months before you can use it
Its great that there are guys that can hot rod them if thats what you want but it shouldnt be a requirement to make the thing play
I wonder if Little walter, Big Walter , Sonny Boy etc. ever even took the coverplates off a harp-or just tossed the ones they couldnt make play?
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SuperBee
2300 posts
Dec 26, 2014
10:52 PM
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I reckon they took the cover plates off.
When something goes wrong, it's natural to try and fix it. To fix it you have to understand how it works and what's wrong with it. Pretty hard to do that with the covers on. Those guys were playing harps since they were little kids. They'd be experts in getting them to work better, clearing blockages, fixing gaps. I reckon.
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sonny3
231 posts
Dec 27, 2014
4:32 AM
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I think Jimmy Reed said he ran his harps under water when they got junked up.I also remember Adam tossing a harp out of his car in one of his vids.
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Kingley
3788 posts
Dec 27, 2014
6:15 AM
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"What would be nice is for a manufacturer to build a consistently playable out of the box harp."
They do. The Hohner Marine Band, Marine Band Deluxe, Crossover, Golden Melody, Suzuki Manji and the Seydel 1847 are all consistently good out of the box and play more than adequately for the average player. Most of those stock harps I've listed these days also have the six overblow right out of the box without any adjustment needed. If you want to play musical styles that require a lot of overblows/overdraws, then you'll need to either gap the harps yourself or buy custom harps. The quality of stock harps is something that people keep going on about and it's something of an urban myth that all stock harps are lousy. Nowadays most mid priced harps from the main manufacturers play better than they have ever done out of the box. This is more true of Hohner in particular. Most people that think they play badly out of the box have gotten used to playing "adjusted' harps. They have been somewhat spoilt by them and they haven't developed the strength of techniques required to play a harmonica that is straight out of the box.
"I wonder if Little walter, Big Walter , Sonny Boy etc. ever even took the coverplates off a harp-or just tossed the ones they couldnt make play?"
I'd suspect they did. In fact I can recall seeing a picture somewhere of Rice Miller with a toothpick (or something similar) inside a harp as he sits at a table. Those cats would have almost certainly been aware of gapping reeds. Chromatic players had been been doing this stuff for years at that point, so it's a natural conclusion to presume that the old blues guys probably picked up some of this knowledge along the way too
Last Edited by Kingley on Dec 27, 2014 6:18 AM
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indigo
29 posts
Dec 27, 2014
7:10 PM
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water trick...i must be old 'cos i used to do that.Harp would last a few months and i'd bin it and buy another one.
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