harpwrench
849 posts
May 17, 2014
6:46 PM
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FYI I have added the option to rework customer supplied harps to the website. So there's a way to save $$ providing your core is current production and in good condition. Wait time is something I can't help but the other side of the coin is prompt repairs once the harp is in service.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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htownfess
289 posts
May 17, 2014
7:00 PM
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Joe, I was wondering about the flatten-the-comb-and-plates part. Is that absolutely essential overall? Back in the day, the reedwork used to make such a bigger percentage of the difference *compared to a stock harp* that I didn't worry so much about airtight interfaces unless the harmonica had to play at 100% right away. I don't really know how much airtightness matters to make the overall improvement you aim at over a stock Crossover or Rocket or MB Deluxe as they come off the line today.
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harpoon_man
52 posts
May 17, 2014
7:21 PM
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@ Harpwrench: I'm not currently a "working player," although I have been in years past, so I'm speaking as a dedicated hobbyist now: I don't think your prices or products are out of line at all. The different levels and options make it easy for customers to get exactly what they want, so my vote is that your product and pricing structure ain't broke, and I do not see a need to fix it.
Btw, I have been saving dough for a Spiers harp over the past few months and currently have $150 in an envelope in my dresser drawer that I'm saving toward a Stage I Marine Band...will get in touch with you once I scrape together the last $25.
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sydeman
110 posts
May 17, 2014
7:27 PM
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@:I was wondering about the flatten-the-comb-and-plates part.
Would agree with the above. My first customs in 1996 from Richard S. were perfect for my particular situation and style and at 70 bucks a pop with fairly short lead times could not ask for more. Wait times have changed though but that is to be expected.
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jnorem
207 posts
May 17, 2014
8:37 PM
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Bound by contract not to sell reed plates? What an idea, a company that doesn't want to make money.
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Call me J
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harpwrench
850 posts
May 17, 2014
8:56 PM
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Yes flattening the parts is critical preparation to support my reedwork. If the reedplates deflect when assembled then it messes everything else up. But even if all you did was gap and tune, it's a worthwhile endeavor IMO.
J it's more complicated than that, no reason to be snarky. If you'd like a set of reed plates customized, no problem, but I can't sell parts.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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jnorem
209 posts
May 17, 2014
10:43 PM
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Snarky, yes I'll cop to that, please accept my apologies.
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Call me J
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Kingley
3579 posts
May 17, 2014
11:59 PM
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I think part of the problem is that people don't realise the difference between a custom harmonica and an optimised harmonica. Therefore often people will have unrealistic expectations of the instrument when it's an optimised harmonica. Having said that I firmly believe that for well over 95% of players an optimised harmonica is all that's needed.
In my opinion (for what that's worth) if a harmonica has a flat comb, flat reed plates, is well gapped and in tune then it's ok for the most part. I do that to pretty much every harp I get. Sometimes I'll also do very light embossing on them too.
Joe, the stock sealed combs on the 1896 are holding up pretty well. They do sometimes swell a little but not excessively. I prefer the triple sealed MB Deluxe combs. Which are smoother on the mouth and have a quicker action and don't swell at all in my experience.
Joe, I think if you could started a line of harmonicas that had flat combs, flat reed plates, were gapped correctly and in tune. Then you could sell a lot of them and have a pretty quick turnaround time. As always the price point is the main factor. If they could be done for around the $100USD mark then I could see them selling. Personally I think your refined reedwork should be kept for the Stage I, II & III harps you make now. Just to differentiate between custom and optimised. Of course that's just my humble opinion.
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Gipsy
64 posts
May 18, 2014
12:27 AM
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For me it's location. The cost of getting one of Harpwrench's harps here to the UK is prohibitive. Having said that we may get to visit the cousins in Vermont next year so I may order one or two get them delivered locally and bring them back in my carry on. Personally I'd rather own one or two excellent harps rather than a whole set of average harps.
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Stevelegh
966 posts
May 18, 2014
1:16 AM
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Hi Joe,
I'm aware that the Stage 1 does everything a 'Workhorse' model would offer, but I'm thinking more from a cost effective perspective. With the new Hohners, you wouldn't have to worry about flattening combs, screws, coverplates etc, leaving you to do the reed work.
This model would open up the market to people who otherwise couldn't stretch to custom harps and give those how can a choice between a set of custom harps within the paramenters of most people's playing ability rather than one or two customs and the rest of their set being a mix up of harps they've bought as try outs.
I know that given the choice, if I had the option of 12 'Workhorse' harps in a case, or the shambles of Hohners, Suzukis and Seydels, plus Power and Spiers customs I've got in my case, I'd opt for the former and it would probably cost the same money.
Last Edited by Stevelegh on May 18, 2014 3:31 AM
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harpwrench
851 posts
May 18, 2014
7:31 AM
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You can't fix this by rubbing it on sandpaper. You might assume it's flat when you're leaving scratch marks but it's not. Fixing it properly (manually straightening first) adds quite a bit of time to a build. If not fixed then the gaps will change when the covers are screwed down, and also mess up other important details that you can't always gap your way out of. This is just one reason that an "optimized" type strategy will not work for me.
Last Edited by harpwrench on May 27, 2014 8:07 AM
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HarveyHarp
586 posts
May 18, 2014
7:51 AM
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@Kingley and others: As always, I have a problem with the definition of Optimized and Customized. Here are the definitions:
Optimized:
op·ti·mize (pt-mz) KEY
TRANSITIVE VERB:
op·ti·mized, op·ti·miz·ing, op·ti·miz·es
To make as perfect or effective as possible.
Computer Science To increase the computing speed and efficiency of (a program), as by rewriting instructions.
To make the most of.
And, here is the definition of customize:
cus·tom·ize (kst-mz) KEY
TRANSITIVE VERB:
cus·tom·ized, cus·tom·iz·ing, cus·tom·iz·es
To make or alter to individual or personal specifications: customize a van.
So how can anyone here come up with the conclusion that an Optimized Harmonica is not as good as a Customized Harmonica? It should be the other way around. I know its just semantics, and I know where the controversy started, but it is dead wrong in my Opinion.
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HarveyHarp
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tmf714
2537 posts
May 18, 2014
8:17 AM
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I believe this explains the "optimized vs custom" build definition quite well-via MIke Fugazzi's website-
OPTIMIZED HARMONICA vs. CUSTOM HARMONICA
We believe that the term “Custom Harmonica” was first coined by Joe Filisko. However, the concept of “Optimized” was pioneered by Dave Payne. What is the difference?
In theory, a custom harmonica should be full custom head to toe, requiring at least 5-7 hours of work with meticulous attention to tuning, reed setup and often coming with expensive upgrades like custom combs, hardware, etc. These types of custom harps average anywhere from $150 to $350. Wait times can be particularly long because most well-known and competent custom harmonica builders have long waiting lists. This is why the wait times can be so long and frustrating. If a custom harmonica builder does not have a backlog, this is usually not a good sign.
Optimized harmonicas are something in the middle between custom and stock. They have many of the common techniques used like reed setup and embossing, but are much quicker to produce and a little lighter on the pocket book. Why? We might spend 2-3 hours on an optimized harp vs. a custom one taking 3-4 times more. You could call it a “Lite” custom harmonica.
A full custom harmonica should be remarkable, but an optimized harmonica can certainly be impressive if done well. For someone that has never played a custom harp, an optimized harmonica is a good starting point. It will beat the pants off a stock harmonica and bring to life many of the bends and techniques that you might not have though were possible. We make our optimized harmonica line with mostly enhanced stock parts and combs to keep costs low.
The optimized harmonica line was discontinued as of 10/2013.
Last Edited by tmf714 on May 18, 2014 8:17 AM
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harpwrench
852 posts
May 18, 2014
8:18 AM
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When reeds are off center at the rivet, they misbehave. Embossing selectively with a UST to make it look pretty from this angle does not "fix" it, it only makes things worse from the air flow perspectives that actually matter. Ignoring it is one difference between one "optimized" harp (or stock, or custom) being great, and the next one being a POS that causes hard feelings and bad reputations. Folks I do this for a living and can't let some things slide. A $100 harp would be doable if these sort of problems weren't common, but the fact is that they're almost always present and take time and patience to fix.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
Last Edited by harpwrench on May 18, 2014 9:40 AM
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tmf714
2538 posts
May 18, 2014
8:25 AM
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Richard Sleigh is now referring to his harmonicas by two names-"All Purpose" and "Overblow"-
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tmf714
2539 posts
May 18, 2014
8:32 AM
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Joe,
I think the best anyone can do is what I did-I got a Stage 1 SP20 Low F from Rockin Rons for $125.00-a superb deal anyway you look at it-free fast shipping,no wait and a killer harp.
I guess my next question would be can you do this on a monthly basis? And what if you could have a variety i.e.,Marine Band and Golden Melody added to the roster?
I personally think what your doing now is fine-prices are reasonable,and the product is outstanding.
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harpwrench
853 posts
May 18, 2014
9:18 AM
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Ready to go harps is kinda tricky to pull off when you have a wait list. And the only way to not have a queue is to refuse orders. Many customers try one, then want the other keys. Not accepting that order doesn't serve me or the customer very well. It becomes a wait list with no deposit for the next "batch" of finished harps and figuring out who gets them. The guy that does feels good, but the guy that misses out won't and neither will I. Stage I reedwork has advanced/evolved a lot and will smoke the RR era SP20's. I have additional labor invested, plus harps are ten bucks higher out of the box than they were then. So no $125 Stage I's. I can see offering ready to go harps with the 90-95% strategy I mentioned earlier, for around that price, that would still be more advanced than an older Stage I on the "money holes". Then only allowing orders for Stage harps to prevent conflict between that and the wait list. Especially SP20's because most people order MB's.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
Last Edited by harpwrench on May 18, 2014 9:48 AM
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Frank
4290 posts
May 18, 2014
10:07 AM
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I really want to invest in a harp from you and it is a frugal thing on my end not a cheapskate thing that keeps me in limbo...
I don't mind spending money - but when I do, there are a lot of factors that determine where it is spent.
I would be very happy with a 1/2 a stage harp from you...
in other words...A harp your still proud of, but can be created with less blood, sweat and tears on your end.
Bottomline on my end - I may be wrong but "I think" Stage 1 is more harp then I need - so I'm reluctant to get one :)
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1847
1803 posts
May 18, 2014
11:04 AM
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-the reed plate does not look like german craftsmanship
my guess is it was made in china.
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Last Edited by 1847 on May 18, 2014 11:04 AM
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timeistight
1567 posts
May 18, 2014
11:30 AM
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How about "Joe's Hand-picked Hohners": OOTB harps that you've tested and approved but haven't done any further work on. Harps that don't make the cut would get broken down for parts or returned to Hohner as defective if they were really bad.
These harps wouldn't be Spiers customs so you wouldn't be diluting that brand.
Frank, would you pay $100 for a Spiers-selected harp?
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Frank
4291 posts
May 18, 2014
12:02 PM
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Actually money isn't the issue, I became a millionaire by being frugal and I want to keep my millions- not use it on things I really don't need...I need toilet paper - so I buy Boxes of 200 rolls averaging out to less then 30 cents a roll. You got to be careful too, there is frugal and then there is foolish...but just because I can afford Joe's harps, doesn't mean my money is best spent buying them... If a crossover puts a smile on my face, should I get greedy? Sure Joe's stage 1 would put a bigger smile on my face, but again - any smile is priceless - big or small :)
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kudzurunner
4701 posts
May 18, 2014
12:25 PM
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I don't actually spend much money on cars. I really love the Spiers harps that I've got. I used the high G in a recent session that I did for an up-and-coming country artist, where I played a stock Hohner Deluxe key of G and then overdubbed Joe's high G--two harps in the same key, an octave apart--and it's a beautiful instrument, far superior to a stock high G Marine Band.
That was a specialized application, though. The way I play, stock MB's handle pretty much everything I want to do. I'm very picky about my mic and amps, but I'm pretty un-picky about harps, as long as they're Marine Bands. I'm quite alert to the differences BETWEEN MB's of different varieties, but "alert to" isn't the same as "freaked out by." Every now and then I get an almost unplayable MB and I curse, but that doesn't happen very often. I believe I'm more aware than most of the downside to having a too-easy-to-play harp, which is that you don't actually play with any soulfulness. I happen to think that the player is more important than the harp, and that a properly trained player can make the harp do most of what he wants it to do, even if it's not a particularly good harp. Properly trained, in this context, means somebody who has very strong chops. You get those primarily by playing with full power on harps that don't particularly want to cooperate. Once you've brought your chops into full strength, you're sitting in the position of being able to get your sound on any harp.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on May 18, 2014 12:36 PM
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nacoran
7749 posts
May 18, 2014
1:50 PM
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Adam, I suspect with all that running you do you could stick an I-Beam in the reed slot and get it to play!
I've been playing around at 'jogging' (moving my feet like I was running, only just about as slowly as I can.) I've been to the doctors a couple times for adjustments to my asthma medicine so I don't feel wiped out for days afterwards, but if you see a fat guy reeeealy far behind you running reeeeeallly slowly, it might be me (well, except for the whole NY vs. Mississippi thing).
:)
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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Kaining
40 posts
May 18, 2014
2:23 PM
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I ain't so sure about the brute force aproach Adam.
Sure, you'll probably get most harp working like that but it's really messy and you are one buzz away when playing overdraw/double overnotes.
And being in tune isn't the easiest things to do when playing at full strenght. when you are playing fast it's not much of a problem, when you aren't...
I own an high end handmade and customised harp and recently, i have been trying the exact oposite: getting notes with the lowest possible air. Bends, overbends, double overbends...
As a result, i am starting to get some tripple, even quadrupple overbend on some notes. Some need pushing (the 4x), some don't. If i go at it without enough care, i even have some problems getting some single overbend as i play a double.
Most double overbend are usable, after that not so much. But 3 month ago, i couldn't use any double overbend (apart from hole 7) and i had been practicing with way more strenght than i am now for a few years.
As a result, all my regular bends have improved too.
At the moment, i have "lost" power but i am getting more control, like i never had before out of my harps.
And it's also easier for my asthma...
And honnestly, i am begining to think that not forcing at all is the best way to understand how to really control harps, to know exactly, right down to the exact millimeters where your tongue as to be to get every note you need.
Stock harps can't help you practice that way and that may be the main reason to get customs even if you aren't a pro or do not have the skills to use them to the fullest.
They do not impose any kind of limits on the user, so there is no end to the learning curve.
And the last time i checked, every legend agree that the time you stop learning in music is the time you die so...
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the_happy_honker
178 posts
May 19, 2014
4:42 AM
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Joe, have you considered doing something like Hohner's artist setups? That way the emphasis is on what the harp can be expected to do - rather than the work that goes into it.
If I get a harp with only 4 out of 20 check marks on a list of features, I have the feeling I'm getting a barely-above-stock harp. But if I get the same harp called His Bobness, I'm getting a solid harp that has clear single notes and resonant chords.
You get what I'm saying? Stage I, II, and III sounds like good, better, best. If you're going to shell out for a not-off-the-shelf harp, then why pay for just a "good" harp? Better to pay for a harp that is optimized for the style of play.
Sell these optimized genre setups with a one year warrantee against defects - no tweeking for individual tastes, neither are 4 draw tune-ups free.
Some of my pants are jeans - I wear 'em like I bought 'em. Other pants I take to the tailor for fitting. The latter cost three times what my jeans cost and I have to wait 10 days. But they are superbly comfortable and future adjustments cost less.
You should still offer custom harps - harps that are fitted to the individual player - but these should cost more than the optimized harps. People understand that, I think.
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rockmonkeyguitars
84 posts
May 19, 2014
5:21 AM
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Happy honkers post actually makes a lot of sense to me. If you had workhorse, overblow, and Chromatic (or something similar) explaining that the workhorse is optimized for heavy playing that a harp optimized for overblows or for chromatic playing might not be able to handle then you have 3 different harps capable of 3 different jobs rather than what appears to be 3 levels of quality.
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HarpNinja
3876 posts
May 19, 2014
7:59 AM
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Joe,
Great commentary, and I appreciate being able to read it.
I can relate to a lot of what you're saying and I know you know Matt's thoughts on the matter. I never liked doing optimized harps because of the inherent drama associated with someone frequently wanting more for less. I would always argue that the time savings needs to be associated with time and not the mods...do them faster, not doing less.
No matter how clearly you explain the build, people expect it to play like your top work, even though they shouldn't and they won't.
I have a pretty good handle on what I would consider the minimal effort needed to be "optimized" or a light customized harp - geared towards a blues player that plays all ten holes. In practice, it still takes too long to build and to it right.
The level of "best" and "good enough" is always tricky when you rely on reputation and high expectations. I appreciated Joe's growth mindset, and his love of the art of harmonica rather than the business!
Personally, I think flat, gapped, and tuned is the best approach for a workhorse harp. I think embossing is important, but something that you could let go of to some extent...and it would be helpful to start with something easy to work on like a Rocket or SP20 - with no body work (although harps tend to be art projects nowadays).
Give me a Rocket that is setup flat, has gapping, and centered reeds, and I can play just about anything. There are benefits to embossing, even lightly, and/or waxing, but that might be where you'd hit a point of diminishing returns?
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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yonderwall
66 posts
May 19, 2014
8:15 AM
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I completely agree with Mike: "… flat, gapped, and tuned is the best approach for a workhorse harp."
Other than an occasional passing note, I do not overblow, so all I'm looking for in life are these types of "workhorse" harps. Although embossing (even light) can be important… I would skip it altogether.
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Tuckster
1407 posts
May 19, 2014
8:21 AM
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I'm no cutting edge player. What I want from a harp is equal response across all the holes. When I play the 1-4 octave, I want both reeds to respond equally. I'm not much of an overblower,but if you can give me the 6ob without it being too tight,I'm a happy camper!
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harpwrench
855 posts
May 19, 2014
9:03 AM
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It's not good-better-best with my stuff. If you don't OB then Stage I is best. I don't know how I can make things any clearer in my descriptions but you have to read them. Names can be tricky. Stage III does everything, to me that's "all purpose." But apparently it just means you can pop off overblows in passing or if you play harder.
If you take the ditch and bend the frame on your car, do you take it to the shop and have them make sure it turns left okay, because you usually don't turn right on your way to work anyway? Reality is that some builders need to use gapping as a crutch to "customize" a problematic harp to the players style because it won't do everything it's supposed to. Good players can sniff that out within the first five minutes of playing it.
Again I'm not going to offer a real basic setup like some are saying they want. That was originally what the Stage I was and I sold maybe 10 of them.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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Tuckster
1409 posts
May 19, 2014
9:36 AM
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OK Joe. I went to your website and read the descriptions. What I stated about my requirements pretty much makes it a Stage 1.Being an average middle of the bell curve player,I find Crossovers much to my liking.They do everything I need them to do.I have a couple harps from other customisers that cost me around $125 that I am quite happy with. Is spending another $50 going to make me any happier? I'm not trying to minimize the work and effort you put into your harps,just trying to let you see it from my point of view.I'm thinking that by the time you get to the price of a Stage 1,you might as well spend a little more and get a Stage 2. What would you have to charge for a harp with just basic reedwork? For my needs,maybe I'm better off just learning to fish myself?
Last Edited by Tuckster on May 19, 2014 9:39 AM
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HarpNinja
3877 posts
May 19, 2014
10:03 AM
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"It's not good-better-best with my stuff."
Many of us read that and totally understand you...the problem is not everyone is rational or knows what they want.
I guess my point is the trouble of offering less than your (generic plural your) best isn't generally worth it for any number of reasons - and while many probably assume you'd make more profit with volume sales from lowering the price point - you probably wouldn't.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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harpwrench
856 posts
May 19, 2014
10:07 AM
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I tend to let my work speak for itself as far as comparisons. But the current slot work I'm doing feels better than my own work prior to developing it. Which has been about a three year process working out convurging ideas on resonance and airflow. It manifests itself more dramatically in the 2-3-10 holes. This is why I could offer something with less labor, and go back to the normal faster way on holes that aren't as critical.
All I'm after is a feel for the livable price in our current economy that more players can tolerate for a bangin' harp that delivers on my reputation. Not suggestions on how to join a race to the bottom. Then I can work out where to be slightly less picky in order to achieve that. Average players would likely not discern a difference between it and Stage I. It will still be an amazing instrument that I can be proud of, or it won't happen.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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HarpNinja
3878 posts
May 19, 2014
10:10 AM
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Just be careful to not drop so low you create a monster.
Your pricing is very appropriate, IMO, and anything lower than $125 would be unfair to you - assuming it is a harp like you mention above with limited coverplate/comb work.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
Last Edited by HarpNinja on May 19, 2014 10:14 AM
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HarpNinja
3879 posts
May 19, 2014
10:16 AM
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FWIW...I played several of the harps you sold through Ron's, and that was a great deal for people.
With a very limited dog in the fight at this point, I can say I've played harps from tons of customizers, and none but the top of the top put the thought into builds that Joe does. A lot of guys put as much time in on a harp, but time doesn't always equal quality.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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Littoral
1079 posts
May 19, 2014
11:45 AM
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This customer says:
I do need some harps now and I am capable of doing justice to a stage I (as best I can guess because I haven't played one). Adams take may be closer to my position so I'm more likely ready to go with some XO's at best or even trying some 20's because I haven't played one for years. Gap a little and go. I'm sure I'll get my best attempt at William Clarke/Jason Ricci out of them
My issue is that the public, 99.9%, have no idea what the difference is and will hoot and holler at some pure shit noise so it can't make much difference to anyone but me.
I wonder what Buddha would have added to this conversation...
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barbequebob
2560 posts
May 19, 2014
12:09 PM
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It's definitely quite true that work from different customizers can vary quite a lot and I've checked out the work of more than a few and can easily tell the difference. True craftsmanship in anything doesn't come cheap and the best ones will take much more time to get things right and unfortunately, too many people expect ridiculously quick turnaround times and if you want fast, it's very slightly optimized and not really a true custom and so slightly optimized stuff or even the thing that Hohner now does with its Artist setup recently (and Seydel has actually been doing this kind of thing for a least a decade longer) isn't gonna be remotely close to what a real custom is.
The average player still can't wrap their minds around the fact that custom harp is customized to the way the needs of the individual player, wheras OOT is basically setup for the masses and so it's obvious what's made for the masses are always gonna miss the mark for a segment of players out there and that's something that can't be avoided.
Another problem is that many players often don;t have a real clue about their own playing and may just go on price alone and an example of this happened when I got a private message on another forum from a player who had bought a custom from the Filisko guild for the Blues setup, which is NOT set up for overblows at all, but mainly for a traditional blues player and a traditional player will just about NEVER be using overblows and this person complained to me that the harp didn't overblow, so I wrote him back saying that he was assuming all blues players overblow, which is NOT true at all, and that he had to order them to be setup for that and right on the website, it clearly stated that an overblow setup was going to be more money, and he replied he didn't know, but in reality, he just looked at price and didn't fully read what's going on.
Most of the best customizers are always further refining their technique and I can tell you that if you got a chance to play a Filisko/Filisko guild custom from 1994 (which is what I got a chance to try out from Jerry Portnoy) and get one now, the one now will play substantially better than one from that period because not only the stock they're coming from is far better plus their methods have come a long way since that time.
Some of the newest Hohner stock and a few others like Seydel and Suzuki (especially the Manji) play closer to a custom from 1994, but still aren't even in that smae ballpark.
Custom harps can't hide poor playing technique and a player with really good technique is gonna make any harp sound great and someone with bad technique is always gonna make any harp sound god awful and too many players automatically blame the harp rather than be held accountable for bad technique.
I can remember during the 80's before customs ever came around, with MB's back then, one of the things I once did was to take them all apart, open the back of the covers to get more volume (which was to mimic the much wider openings of a pre-WWI MB), retune, regap whenever necessary and actually glue the reed plates to the comb using very carefully placed Elmer's wood carpenter's glue, then placed the plates and nails back together and then get 3 carefully placed C-clamps on them and allow them to fully dry overnight and doing that alone made them play better.
Many plates often came out of the factory warped, combs weren't cut properly if they were wood and with plastic, the injection mold didn't fully dry into it's proper shape, plus burrs on the reeds as well as the reed plates were common place (burrs on the plate can cause one's lips to get cut the crap out of while playing).
There's no way I'd ever become a customizer because just from tinkering with the instrument over the years, I have more than enough understanding the hard work that goes into it and you have to charge more than just minimum wage worth for that.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Shredder
394 posts
May 19, 2014
1:58 PM
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Joe, I have 2 of your harps, stg 1 sp-20 and a stg 2 marine band with the custom comb.
If you would just sell stg 1 reed plates for the SP 20 at around $50 that would be great.
I changed a reed on my S/P 20 and F#c#ed up the reed rivet hole. I tapped it crooked and the reed sounds dull.
Mike
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Harpaholic
449 posts
May 19, 2014
8:04 PM
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IMO, you would be helping the majority of harp players by selling a good quality ootb harp like a
Crossover or Rocket that performs 95-100%,as opposed to 80-90%.
You hand pic every harp, no donors.
That way you can choose harps that require the least amount of work and save the bad ones for your stage harps.
A year ago you sold me 6 or 7 SP 20's workhorse harps retuned and gapped. I am still extremely happy with them.
They perform perfectly for me!
If there's 20 million harp players in the U.S.
what's the average skill level? Beginner, adv. Beginner?
I own your stage I's and II's and I didn't think any less of you as a customizer because no matter how much or how
little work you put in a harp its top knotch. I feel I got more than I paid for.
I mainly only use the customs for stage, but I want good harps for practice because they get used on stage too.
If you were not a customizer or you where the manufacturer, what would you want?
As far as your pricing, you are worthy of charging what the Filisko guild is charging, assuming it's more.
Having played your customs for several years I think your current pricing is a tremendous value!
Just my two cents!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on May 19, 2014 9:06 PM
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jnorem
214 posts
May 19, 2014
8:28 PM
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Does custom work include any work on the comb or the covers?
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Call me J
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Harpaholic
450 posts
May 19, 2014
8:40 PM
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Jnorem, it can be part of customizing. Opening back of cover plates, adding screws or replacing nails with screws.
Flattening and sealing combs or using custom combs like the ones used on my stage II harps. There's probably more?
Last Edited by Harpaholic on May 19, 2014 8:42 PM
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Brad Arvidson
5 posts
May 19, 2014
9:51 PM
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I posted and it got lost :(
Joe, just keep doing things as you are. If someone can't pay @ $170 for your work then their loss.
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jnorem
217 posts
May 19, 2014
10:19 PM
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"If someone can't pay @ $170 for your work then their loss."
Why is it their loss?
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Call me J
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Brad Arvidson
6 posts
May 19, 2014
10:54 PM
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Simple, his harps are worth $170, probably more- he makes a great product.
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Philosofy
550 posts
May 20, 2014
6:37 AM
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Something just occurred to me. Many customizers will make a harp to suit your particular playing style. But I'm not sure what my playing style is. I don't know if I play too hard or not. I don't have the knowledge to properly characterize my playing. Joe, perhaps you might offer a Skype evaluation of a player to recommend what Stage to get, so they know they are getting a truly customized product.
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barbequebob
2564 posts
May 20, 2014
10:19 AM
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@Philosofy -- Your last post explains exactly what I've explained all along that the average player often doesn't have a clue of where they're playing is at and for most players like yourself saying just what you did, I'd hold off getting a custom instrument because until you get a true handle on where you're playing actually is, you're not really ready for them just yet.
For many years, besides the reed work, among the things customizers always did were opening up the back of the cover plates to give the instrument greater volume and projection (and with the MB's, the way the opened them up was to resemble the way they were so wide open back prior to WWII and if you were to put pre-WWII cover plates on a newer MB, they'd definitely would have an uptick in volume and projection), sand the combs perfectly flat, getting rid of saw marks on the comb (which during the 80's to the mid 90's were a GIGANTIC problem and were a major cause of air leaks alone), and fully sealing the combs, and even trying to perfectly level out the plastic combs, even the recessed combs like on a Sp20 as those combs aren't perfect OOTB at all.
Customizing reed plates are OK, but when put together with a very perfectly flat and 100% fully sealed, the instrument is like night and day.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Gnarly
1009 posts
May 20, 2014
2:52 PM
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@Philosofy Great idea!!!
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Philosofy
551 posts
May 20, 2014
4:26 PM
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Joe,
"Customized" implies you are making it custom for the customer. For exactly what he needs. Here's another analogy:
Buying a suit off the rack: Out of the Box Harp
Buying a suit off the rack, and having the sleeves and pants altered: An Optomized harp
Going to a tailor and getting a suit made: A Custom harp.
Now, I can't see getting a good result from a tailor without the tailor making measurements. I'm not saying this is what you should be doing, but this is how I view customized harps. If someone is going to spend $130 on a harp, there is the possibility of him ordering 3 or 4 more from you if he likes it. But on the customer side, he might be afraid of spending $130 on a harp, and feel like he is getting an extra $60 to $90 of performance relative to an OOTB harp.
I think you have a marketing problem: many of your customers aren't sure they they personally will get the value out of your harps. Sure, Jason Ricci needs your product, but do I? If you take some time to evaluate each customer, you can actually make a custom product. The guy who blows hard needs a different harp than a guy that plays soft, or a guy that plays over blows. This is where your expertise pays off. A little time up front assures your customer of the value you deliver.
If fact, I'm pretty sure I'll get one of your harps, but I want to wait until SPAH so someone who knows (either you or Joe F) can tell me what I need.
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robbert
311 posts
May 20, 2014
6:56 PM
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I obtained one of Joe's Stage III harps because I wanted a harp that I could trust to reliably produce obs and yet not choke with moderate force. I also knew that I would have to come up to the level of the harp, as I am not much of an ob player. That's why I invested in one. I wanted at least one. Now I want them all to be like that. Just working with that one harp I believe improved my technique a great deal. Now I can (with mild adjustment) ob to some degree on all kinds of harps that I could not do that with before. If you are so inclined, and ready for it, a really good instrument can allow you to reach for techniques that were almost impossible before. But I did not start looking for more responsive than stock(Sp. 20s) instruments until I had been working at the harp for well over ten years.
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Frank
4312 posts
May 20, 2014
7:08 PM
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How'd you get your Wow to stick Joe - I have tried twice and the spam monster gobbled both mine up... I'm trying to respond to Robbert with ...Wow...and I mean it :)
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