MindTheGap
373 posts
Mar 23, 2014
11:45 PM
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Trying to decode a sound. At the start of both of these demos, Hophead75 and Ronnie Shellist play riffs that include a very percussive beat, and I've heard others do this to. I try with a tongue-block slap/pull thing, but get a softer crunchy chord instead of the sharp percussive 'tuck'. I've slowed the vids down a lot, and they stay percussive even then. What are they doing? Is it a particular tongue articulation? Or is it the mic/amp combo reacting in a particular way?
---------- mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 23, 2014 11:47 PM
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slackwater
34 posts
Mar 24, 2014
12:38 AM
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Have you tried puckering, and using your diaphragm? Or for even more "hit" do that and start with your tongue up against your palate just behind your teeth and pull it down out of the way at the same time as you pull down your diaphragm. I don't usually analyse what I do like this, but I just did with that, and that's how I do it. These guys might do it differently. Meanwhile, a name just came up again in the tag for the above video that's had me wondering for a few days: Would I name a "made for harp" amp after a guitar player? I don't think so.
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slackwater
35 posts
Mar 24, 2014
12:44 AM
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...and the blow notes, same thing, just a variation on the theme.
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SuperBee
1804 posts
Mar 24, 2014
1:12 AM
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Just sounds like slaps and pulls to me
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MindTheGap
375 posts
Mar 24, 2014
1:31 AM
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slackwater - thanks, giving that a try.
SuperBee - that's what I thought, but as I say I get a softer kind of pulse going on. A nice sound, actually IMO, but not that sharp percussive sound on the vids. I wondered it was a particular mic/amp response to slaps/pulls or if they were doing something extra acoustically. ---------- mtg
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MindTheGap
376 posts
Mar 24, 2014
2:10 AM
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...the closest I get is a TB pull combined with a 'tuh' from middle bit of tongue behind the teeth. ---------- mtg
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SuperBee
1806 posts
Mar 24, 2014
3:03 AM
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Yep, I think it's definitely accentuated by the amp. I haven't tried those particular pieces...and I don't really want to plug an amp in just now, but I had a listen to my one video...and I think I can hear this sound in there at various times. Oh but there's a guy with bongos...never mind... Now I'm checking it out.. I think it's actually a combination of the slap / pull with an additional articulation maybe as slack water describes but I think I'm doing it from the glottis, a bit like throat vibrato but closing it right down. I'm not doing it amplified. I think the amp is adding an emphasis too , in the clips you've posted. Yeah, actually not sure. I'd have to record myself and check it out to see if I can do it as in the clips. I think I can I think I can
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MindTheGap
377 posts
Mar 24, 2014
4:05 AM
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Glottis eh? If you do record it I'd be very grateful. It seems to me like one of the must-have sounds. Especially for showing off your amped kit (e.g. on ebay) :-) Seriously though, it's great sound I think for comping too. ---------- mtg
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Barley Nectar
329 posts
Mar 24, 2014
6:12 AM
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I have been impressed by this sound also. Don't know how to do it. My tongue blocking skills are lacking as a life long single note player. I get the impression that the tongue it involved??? BN
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isaacullah
2695 posts
Mar 24, 2014
9:10 AM
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It's slaps and pulls with some diaphram-based emphasis. The amplification of these things makes them sound even more percussive than when played acoustic.
You can do this either tongue blocked or lip blocked. Here's a video I made on how to do it with a lip block:
EDIT: Just watched this over two-year-old video, and I must say that my technique has improved drastically from that time. It's slightly embarrassing to watch this now! :) ----------   YouTube! Soundcloud!
Last Edited by isaacullah on Mar 24, 2014 9:12 AM
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MindTheGap
378 posts
Mar 24, 2014
9:33 AM
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Isaac thank you so much for posting this. I don't want to be picky, but I still can't get that particular sound. Here is a short clip similar to the first notes of the HopHead75 demo, where I'm TBing the percussive bit. It just doesn't have that edge...(excuse the playing in general, I'm hanging on by my fingernails).
I guess I need to hear someone do it through the mic, then do the same thing acoustic so I can work out what your supposed to be feeding into the mic. Maybe a good subject for a Skype lesson with RS.
EDIT: Just to say, I've managed to work out how a lot of sounds are made, through lots of listening/trying/recording/comparing, but I can't get this one.
---------- mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 24, 2014 9:41 AM
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timeistight
1517 posts
Mar 24, 2014
9:54 AM
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It's the precise coordination of the tongue slap with the breath articulation that gives that pop. Also, notice particularly in Shellist's clip, how much softer the pull is than the slap. That contrast adds to the tightly controlled dynamics of his playing.
I think you're on the right track, but this isn't something you can learn quickly. Keep practicing.
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MindTheGap
379 posts
Mar 24, 2014
9:58 AM
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Take 2. Different mic, same old me, but really trying to spit out (or rather in) those pulses.
timeistight - I see what you mean, some parts are quite gentle, some quite harsh. Happy to practice for as long as required - just don't want to be practicing the wrong thing = d'oh.
Just listening to RS again, so the pulls are percussive but gentle and the main notes are stronger. Blimey.
--- mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 24, 2014 10:09 AM
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mlefree
153 posts
Mar 24, 2014
10:46 AM
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This is my last tongue blocking frontier. I've been working on TB for nearly a decade. Got some of the easier techniques quickly (simple slap'pull, octaves, etc.). Then some of the more difficult were harder to come by (bending, tongue switching, etc.). The last, most stubbornly elusive one for me is this very technique, and I don't even know what to call it. For the sake of this discussion, I'll call it the percussive slap/pull.
My teacher, Grant Dermody, tried in vain to help me do this over the course of several lessons. Here's how he describes it, very similarly to timeistight's.
It is the coordination of three distinct sounds played in rapid succession so as to be elusive to the ear: 1) the open shord with tongue away from harp; 2) the slapped target note played cleanly; and 3) a glottal-stop attack at that same target note.
So I can describe it but I just can't sound like Nic Clark.
Thanks,
Michelle
----------
 SilverWingLeather.com email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
Last Edited by mlefree on Mar 24, 2014 10:53 AM
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isaacullah
2697 posts
Mar 24, 2014
11:23 AM
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MTG: IT sounds like you are well on the way to getting it (to my ear). Your mic/amp combo isn't as crunchy as Ronnie or Nic's, but what you are doing is definitely the basic idea!
PS, I like your tone better in the second clip. ----------   YouTube! Soundcloud!
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MindTheGap
380 posts
Mar 24, 2014
1:13 PM
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Michelle - Thanks. Ah ha! Well, naming the beast is a step towards conquering it: 'percussive slap/pull' it is.
Isaac - thanks for these comments, and the helpful video. So I'm thinking that this is an advanced technique and I shouldn't be too vexed about not being able to do it - yet.
oxharp has given me some very useful insight - and some homework to do to strengthen the power of slaps and pulls, via Lester Butler's 'Automatic'. Also and interesting idea of creating a strong, explosive draw by creating a vacuum with the windpipe closed, when you open it you get a sharp attack. Like an exaggerated inward 'Tuh'.
---------- MTG
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SuperBee
1811 posts
Mar 24, 2014
4:10 PM
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I went to bed, and I see in the meantime the question is fairly-well addressed. Oh well, I made some recording anyway. It's probably redundant but I'll post this evening if I can make time.
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MindTheGap
381 posts
Mar 25, 2014
12:00 AM
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Superbee - That's time zones for you :) Please do post your recording. These are some useful discussions for sure but I don't think the question is solved.
I may not be able to make that sound (yet!) but I've picked up a useful technique and thing to practice. Oxharp made me realise that there are soft TB slaps/pulls where you keep the air going and pulse your tongue, then there are more percussive ones where you stop/start the air as well to give a powerful percussive effect - which will take some strengthening practice. And there are shades in between.
Here's my attempt at the percussive one. All variety is good IMO. As usual, I found the best noise when playing the harp gently, but it comes out of the amp sounding quite strident.
---------- MTG
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 25, 2014 12:12 AM
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MindTheGap
382 posts
Mar 25, 2014
12:20 AM
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So, Lester Butler, Automatic. This isn't the same particular sound as my OP, but has the percussive TB thing.
---------- MTG
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SuperBee
1813 posts
Mar 25, 2014
1:03 AM
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i gotta work out how to embed 'em properly and which is which... one is amped and one not... just recorded on a zoom H1...just noticed the 'lo-cut' is ON...not sure if thats had an impact on the recordings... anyway no great shakes but fwiw, just a random riff i heard somewhere...
What You Want To Call The Link Here
What You Want To Call The Link Here
no thats not really right...i'll have to change them to mp3s and try again later...i think you can download them, but theres not much to be learned except that i'm not much chop at this after all. anyway it sounds a bit different in the room but they say the camera doesnt lie...
Last Edited by SuperBee on Mar 25, 2014 1:16 AM
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MindTheGap
383 posts
Mar 25, 2014
1:42 AM
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That's brilliant, thank you! It's not the exact same sound as in the OP - well, it's a different riff, higher up the harp - but does have that percussive feature. More like the Lester Butler Automatic vibe actually. It's great hearing acoustic vs amplified, that's just what I was talking about. It's nigh on impossible to decode when you just hear amped (for me), because there are so many variables.
My initial thoughts then on comparing the two is that the acoustic technique is as described by everyone above, and the mic/amp are taking that and responding in a particular way. And I guess that different mic/amps will respond differently. I know that's a truism but what I mean is that I'm most interested in getting the acoustic technique right rather than slavishly replicating someone's *exact* sound. If that makes sense?
I'm going to try copying bits of your riff and compare. Thanks again.
---------- MTG
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 25, 2014 1:52 AM
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MindTheGap
384 posts
Mar 25, 2014
1:46 AM
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Re embedding clips - I used to use SoundCloud but that got a bit weird with the social-networking thing. Acquiring strange likers and followers and all that. Well, at least they liked it - even if they didn't really exist :-)
I took a leaf out of Frank's book (another leaf, I'll have to buy him a new book) and use 'Box', which is more no-nonsense and has an easy embedding option.
But the dropbox download worked fine.
---------- MTG
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 25, 2014 1:53 AM
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MindTheGap
385 posts
Mar 25, 2014
3:15 AM
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...Just one thing (my Columbo Close)...
...are you doing the percussive stop with glottis or soft-palate and tongue. I think it's the 2nd. Called a 'Velar Consonant' apparently, thank you internet. I think the glottal stop is too soft for this.
---------- mtg
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SuperBee
1814 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:32 AM
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Hm, I don't really know. Seemed glottal to me last night. Seemed to be the same place as my vibrato comes from, but could just be perception. I'll have to check again. That amp btw, is an epiphone valve junior...well, kind of...I rebuilt it with a hand wired board and 6v6 tube. Mic is a 520sl Ah yes, the box...might have to give it a whirl. Dropbox works well for photos, but it's not so good for sound clips lately.
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MindTheGap
386 posts
Mar 25, 2014
5:04 AM
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OK, I'm asking rather than telling :-) Currently I can only do this with the 'velar consonant' - certainly for an explosive start to the note. Everyone else mentioned glottal stop though.
I forgot to say how attractive that amped sound is - in particular that crackly-tearing edge you have on the low notes. Do you get that with all types of mics? Would you get it with an unmodded amp?
---------- mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 25, 2014 5:10 AM
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SuperBee
1815 posts
Mar 25, 2014
2:04 PM
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That amp does have a distinctive character I think. I built it with the intention of giving to my daughter for a practice amp when she was going to get a strat, and it does sound good with single coils. A bit dark for humbuckers. When she changed her mind about the strat, I kept the amp. Tried retubing it for less gain, but decided I like it best this way. I do really keep it around for guitar players to use. So perhaps it's preamp distortion? I have another of these epiphones modded for harp. There is a YouTube clip which may be more typical of my sound. Same mic, different amp
http://youtu.be/y6p1drLRHAM
That amp is an epiphone head (the same as was sold in Europe as Harley-Benton GA5H) with an 'alnicomagnet' blues harp mod kit, plugged into a pair of 8" weber vintage series speakers. It's cranked fairly hard and also miked through PA and then recorded by someone sitting off to the side with an iPhone. Which probably means more amp less PA sound...but also iPhone recording so who knows really.. I have another of these amps still in stock form. It sounds less good.
But...I think the mic contributes a lot to the sound. That one is a very early 520SL. Sound is complicated when you start to analyse it. Mic sensitivity, breath force, amp character at various volume settings, room size and surfaces...lots of variables, but the biggest is probably the human brain. I suspect the player adjusts subconsciously to make the sound match their expectation...
Sorry, that's a tangent...it's time to go to work and I haven't settled the glottis question..
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MindTheGap
387 posts
Mar 26, 2014
12:48 AM
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I remember reading about your amp for your daughter. Whatever causes it - mic, preamp or particular settings, that 'tearing' sound does seem to be a good sound. One to get.
Wow that's a great version of Easy. Here you are embedded...
I'm supposed be learning Easy for study purposes, but I keep getting diverted by other interesting things. So I'll have a bit of that if you don't mind! And is that tongue-switching you are doing there at around 1m? That's something I've definitely put in the box marked 'for later...'.
None of this is relevant to the OP :) but I think you've addressed my other Angry Wasp question. As here you are getting the 'small-amp' sound but big and full.
Next time you play, please could you switch off the amp mic half way through so we can hear an A/B comparison :-)
---------- MTG
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 26, 2014 12:50 AM
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MindTheGap
388 posts
Mar 26, 2014
12:58 AM
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...I know from my practice already with Easy that a lot of the interest comes from careful use of double stops to make the overdriven amp do it's particular thing. E.g. 2D with a hint of 3D on the first note. I've been able to replicate that with my kit, to my satisfaction. But I still can't quite get the OP thing though. The mystery continues.
In passing, the YT vid sheds some light on your 'Superbee' handle. And glad to see you have some decent shoes on - can't tell from the vid if they are bona fide Blues Shoes though. :)
---------- MTG
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 26, 2014 1:33 AM
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harpoon_man
46 posts
Mar 26, 2014
4:41 AM
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MTG: I might be able to help here b/c I am Hophead75. If I recall, the VHT was pure stock when I made that clip, and in any event, I never did any mods to that amp besides putting in a 5751 preamp tube and a new JJ 6V6 power tube.
I can tell you're getting closer to the sound in your latest clips that you posted. When I do it, I'm not intentionally doing anything in particular with the slaps/pulls...more just trying to work in as much "slop" as possible so that the chord sounds wrap around the individual notes and it all sounds fat. Oh, and resonance is very important, along with pushing the air through each note with good breath support.
I'll try to think more about it today and will let you know if more techniques occur to me.
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SuperBee
1824 posts
Mar 26, 2014
4:55 AM
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Docs probably. The handle came first...it doesnt mean much really...then i signed up for an anonymous facebook account and chose the gender-misleading name...which for a while i thought of using more widely. i liked the Johnny Cash song it reminded me of. all whimsy i'm afraid.
i dont think i tongue switch for that particular 1 draw, but i do it for some licks which bounce between 1 draw, 4 draw, 1 blow, 4 blow...mainly i'm blocking to the left though, puckering the 1 draw.
very glad i learned easy...it is easy really, but it has a lot to teach about dynamic and texture and several neat turnarounds. the one in chorus 3 is particularly handy i think. and the ending is cool. and you get to develop the vibrato in a fun way. i'm afraid mine is nowhere near as supple and fast and every other appropriate superlative you can think of for Horton's playing...but so far as it goes, this is the song which i have most to thank...Jimi Lee for really teaching me the essential basic technique, but this song for strengthening it. you'll do better in quick fashion, i have no doubt.
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MindTheGap
393 posts
Mar 26, 2014
5:17 AM
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Superbee - I think Docs should certainly count as Blues Shoes. A very fashionable, smart, shiny shoe these days. Myself, I can't help remembering skinheads running about in 14-hole monkey boots in South London :-) They don't make a lot of that heritage on the website.
Re 'Sue', yes that put me in mind of Johnny Cash when I saw it in the comments.
Re Easy, yes oxharp suggested I learn it for that very reason. It's all about the details apparently, so it will be a long while! Actually I was glad to hear the slower vibrato, it sounds good and I certainly can't do the very fast vib/trem of the original.
---------- mtg
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MindTheGap
394 posts
Mar 26, 2014
5:31 AM
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Hi harpoon_man/Hophead75. Thank you for commenting. I wonder then if it's actually just the slap/pull catching that 'tearing edge' that I hear in your and SuperBee's amped sound. It's a particular low-note thing - i.e. the Lester Butler Automatic sound is very percussive, but different. That would square with Superbee's acoustic vs amped examples of the same riff above. Maybe it's a case of playing just on the brink of where that happens?
Compare with this clip of Mikael Fall which I think is qualitatively different also. Lovely distorted sound, with grit throughout, but different. Yours has the 'tearing sound' on the slaps/pulls and the notes in between are smoother. Same with SuperBee and Ronnie's.
Any light you can shed very gratefully received. Thanks for the positive comment, but I don't think I'm close yet.
---------- mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 26, 2014 5:42 AM
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harpoon_man
47 posts
Mar 26, 2014
5:50 AM
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MTG: after listening to the various clips by the different players, one thing I noticed that I do often after playing the 2 draw is to do a quick bounce back to the 2 blow, sometimes as a blow chord centered on the 2 blow. I think that's something I picked up from Kim Wilson a long time ago and incorporated into my playing. Also, Mikael Fall is playing some Kim Wilson licks from the tune "Don't Bite the Hand that Feeds You", which is a great tune for sure. Cheers!
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MindTheGap
397 posts
Mar 26, 2014
12:25 PM
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Thanks I'll have a go with that and see what I can do. Yes it's a great song I agree!
What I need now is someone to do what you et al are doing, but with an SM57 and a LW Harp Break, which is what I have! Otherwise I'll always be thinking, it's the mic or the amp... ---------- MTG
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rogonzab
527 posts
Mar 27, 2014
7:28 AM
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I start whit TB a few month ago, and that sounds has always run away from me.
I first belive that it was only slaps, and I played like this:
Now I know that how it can be done, so I am going straight to the woodshed!
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MindTheGap
398 posts
Mar 27, 2014
7:50 AM
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rogonzab - are you saying this is The Sound (as it has come to be known), or that you are off the woodshed to work out how to make The Sound? :-)
BTW thank you for the nice little move at 52s to 54s. I am the riff-thief!
---------- MTG
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rogonzab
528 posts
Mar 27, 2014
8:13 AM
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MindTheGap, yes, I am saying that this is the way that I was "doing it", I belived that THE SOUND was a perfect slap, and that mine where beginer slaps. Now I know that is not just the slap, there is an extra ingredient in the mix and I am going to woodshed that ingredient.
This is a great thread!
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MindTheGap
399 posts
Mar 27, 2014
8:35 AM
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rogonzab - Ah, I get you. I can hear some of that brittle tearing sound in there, so I think you will have it. I look forward to hearing the result shortly. And your microphone is...?
All I can get it is a punchy sound. FYI you are now immortalised in my book of riffs.
---------- mtg
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rogonzab
529 posts
Mar 27, 2014
9:59 AM
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MindTheGap,
The rig is this: ---------------------------- Amp: Crate V5 5w Tube amp, 1x12AX7 1xEL84, 10" speaker Mic: Universal 312 w/ Shure CM 99B86 Behringer EQ700 Harmonica: MB in A
Settings: Volume in 3/10, 4/10 and 5/10 Tone always on 0/10 The amp is 100% stock ------------------------------
Yes, and overdrive amp make that sound more prominent. I was trying the close glotis thing, and is hard to sync everything, but it does give you a more percusive sound.
I will make a recording in the next week, maybe we can all do that, so we can exchange experiences. It does not have to be a lonley road.
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MindTheGap
400 posts
Mar 29, 2014
11:30 PM
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I think I've solved this one. I believe it's the effect of the speaker being driven hard.
Previously I had been using my amp with the attenuator in play. It does still break up, so is superficially similar, but with the attenuator off there is that extra quality to the sound: that brittle edge to the note. Shouldn't be a surprise really that the speaker adds something (everyone said so) but I always wondered exactly what that effect was. To my ears, it's either there or not there, even though the sounds above vary in all sorts of other ways.
I wonder if it's the inductance, or the actual physical effect of the cone, but that's for another day. If you take a line out from the speaker-side of the OT, do you keep The Sound or lose it? I might fit line-out just to see.
I'm not saying this sounds exactly the same as The Sound, but I can start to hear the 'brittle-tearing' thing. I just did one recording, not in ideal conditions as I had to use the 'cushion attenuators' and was also a bit fed up with the test riff at this point.
Plus I also found just one setting on a modelling amp that had a version of The Sound. But this wasn't the Champ setting or anything like that, but an emulation of a Big Muff Pi, but with the gain right down. So a bit odd.
Anyway, as usual I've learnt some extra new things by the way during this thread: percussive slaps/pulls, discovered Lester Butler (another great to investigate), another version of Easy to learn from, and all those nice riffs in harpoon_man's VHT demo and rogonzab's Crate demo. Thank you one and all.
EDIT: This might explain another thing I'd noticed. When I play my Harp Break through pretty much any old guitar amp, it sounds interesting. But when I try to record it straight in the PC it sounds insipid, more like the smooth distortion of a fuzzbox.
---------- mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 30, 2014 3:16 AM
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harpoon_man
49 posts
Mar 30, 2014
2:52 PM
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MTG: Nice work, I can tell you're getting it, and I'm surprised how much of a difference the speaker makes. (I have never played with an attenuator or modeling amp though, so that's something I have never tried.)
One additional tip: in my clip, I'm using 100% tongue blocking, which I think allows for a more percussive rip to the tone.
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Mirco
150 posts
Mar 31, 2014
5:38 PM
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@MTG: You're getting there. This level of technique is beyond my current ability, but I can empathize...
It just takes time and practice, man. But if you're like me, you're probably getting so frustrated because you want the technique NOW. I think a Skype with Ronnie would be beneficial, definitely.
As Joe L told me in another post, enjoy the ride. Have fun with it. Ronnie said that if practice is supposed to be work, then he's never practiced a day in his life. (I think I wrote most of this response for myself more than for you.)
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MindTheGap
407 posts
Mar 31, 2014
11:49 PM
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Thanks Mirco. Well, it's the frustration that keeps us moving on eh? If had known, before I started, that harmonica technique had so much complexity then I might never had picked it up in the first place. On the other hand, if it was as simple as I had thought (just learn to bend the notes, right?), I probably wouldn't still be playing it :-)
On this one, I do now have a definite answer, until someone proves otherwise, which is the effect of the speaker. I don't always find a definitive answer but always seem to uncover a load of other things along the way. I guess that fits the bill of Enjoying the Journey.
---------- mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Apr 01, 2014 1:51 AM
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MindTheGap
408 posts
Mar 31, 2014
11:55 PM
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harpoon_man - re TB, yes I thought that was the case. I am too on this. I can get a similar effect LP with Adam's 'opening the embouchure' the technique but the pulse chord does sounds different. With TB there is a definite Low Note feel to it.
---------- mtg
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