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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > BGT: Small Amp, Angry Wasp?
BGT: Small Amp, Angry Wasp?
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MindTheGap
349 posts
Mar 18, 2014
6:10 AM
I play through small amps - the 5W, 8" speaker thing, or a Harp Break into a guitar amp or a small modelling amp.

When I record in a low volume situation I can get a range of sounds I like, with the some of those subtleties of amped-cupped technique, and some warmer tones. And I'm pretty self-critical. Close micing or ambient are different, but both are ok.

When I record in a louder setting (just with ambient mic), I can be heard well enough through the general mix but the subtleties and warmth disappear and I'm left with something more like an angry wasp sound.

Usual questions: likely to be equipment or technique?

Real effect or artifact of recording techniques?

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MTG
JonV
13 posts
Mar 18, 2014
8:33 AM
I generally prefer amps on the larger side of what I can get away with in the situation for this reason.

I find they breath more and have more dynamic range to work with.
didjcripey
727 posts
Mar 18, 2014
2:13 PM
Yeah, the loud volume thing is a pain. Setups that sound fantastic in your woodshed or studio can be useless at a loud gig.
I suspect its mostly equipment more than technique, and both a real effect and recording artefact; subtleties are bound to disappear in the wall of sound.
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Lucky Lester
SuperBee
1771 posts
Mar 18, 2014
2:26 PM
Are you turning up the volume in those situations? Or playing louder to be heard? Either one will rob you of dynamics and make your sound one dimensional.
MindTheGap
350 posts
Mar 18, 2014
2:28 PM
Thanks. Actually I don't feel quite so bad about it, if it is the kit. I think I'm going to try putting the same sound through a great big clean guitar amp and see what that effect that has. Not trying to outgun the guitars with a high volume, but to see what effect a bigger setup has. Maybe I'm just discovering for myself why people like bassmans and such with a big speaker area. I thought it was essentially a volume issue, but it's looking slightly different to that.
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MTG

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 18, 2014 2:30 PM
Barley Nectar
326 posts
Mar 18, 2014
7:24 PM
You call it wasp like, I call it Kazoo tone. Either way, it is the sound of a small amp pushed beyond it's limit. Nothing but distortion that is monotone, unpleasing and totally lacking in dynamics. In a live situation you need POWER! I find that 20 watts is minimum with one 12" speaker. The pro players are not messing around with dinky amps, they are using 40W+ in a live setting. I have several good local harp players here that are friends of mine. These are their amps. Mesa Boogie SOB, 50 watts, Fender 30 with a 2x10 extension cab, 30 watts, Fender Bassman 50, 50 watts, with a 2x12 cab. I personally am an amp nut, seldom drop below 20W and two of my favorites are Fender Bandmaster 45W into a 2x10 cab, Fender 75 1x12 combo among others. These amps will give you clean or dirt. Play them on the edge of distortion and you have your choice depending on your attack. No need to mic or line out. YOU are in control. I played with a crazy, tattooed bastard that used a 58 LP gold top and a Twin, he could not bairy my Fender 75! Tone, volume and dynamics is what a big amp will give you...BN
SuperBee
1773 posts
Mar 18, 2014
8:02 PM
^ that's pretty much how I see it.
Jehosaphat
717 posts
Mar 18, 2014
8:53 PM
Its taken me 30 years to learn that Barley is right.

@super hows the L/W reverb going?
Oxharp
595 posts
Mar 18, 2014
10:49 PM
Hi Guy,
To put this question beyond doubt you need to try a bigger Amp in the same situation.
I used my Marble max at the Jams for quite a while and recorded myself. I was never satisfied with the sound I got although my playing and technique was good enough.
I am happy for you to borrow my Amps and gear for a week or two to experiment if you like.
Russ
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Oxharp
MindTheGap
351 posts
Mar 19, 2014
1:36 AM
OK, sounds like this is a well-trodden path, that's good. Am I playing (blowing/drawing) louder? - probably, unconsciously.

The guitarists I play with aren't tattooed bastards (slightly crazy, naturally, in a good way) but they are right when they say they get a better sound with their optimum amp volume. I'm not into playing loud - I can describe what I'm after with the phrase 'Speak softly but carry a big stick'. When I used to play guitar my favourite tone was playing gently, fingerstyle, but with a powerful amp, to get that stroking-purring-strings sound. The feeling of a big power being held in check.

Russ - Thank you that's a generous offer - much appreciated. You know I'm only really happy when I've got the lab coat and safety specs on. It's how I'm wired. Not the best look on stage though. I reckon I'd just need one session of A/B comparison. I'll email.


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MTG
SuperBee
1776 posts
Mar 19, 2014
2:51 AM
J'phat, I haven't been using it much. I have had it connected at practice, but I'm mainly using the big DeVille (for just the reason which is the point of the OP) and the on-board reverb is great on that. I thought I'd use the pedal with my smaller amps but just haven't been doing those low volume gigs. Still, I'll hold on to it. The effect itself is great. I'm sure I'll be using an amp with no 'verb again at some point.
1847
1607 posts
Mar 19, 2014
7:07 PM


i posted this before only got a few hits
does this sound like an angry wasp nest?
this is in a very large room with the biggest drum set i have ever seen..... 2 guitars bass and keyboard harp part about 3 minutes in, when i say large room, well there are 2 stages
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
1847
1608 posts
Mar 19, 2014
7:25 PM
that is a fender champ, it is perched on top of my vintage bassman
the bass man is turned off, you want loud. ok by me
i got loud. just turn up the bassman..... it just depends ... is everybody listening
you have to play quiet to do that
if you want to just hear yourself turn up.
if it is your gig and your band you have a little more control
if it is a loud jam, it is not your gig it is not your band.
if you are lucky you can get the band to co-operate for a song or two, then the volume will come up,every time.

be honest is the harp not loud enough on this track?
this is at a jam session
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
1847
1609 posts
Mar 19, 2014
7:40 PM
[url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/95553243@N03/13279554623/][img]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7133/13279554623_d36e0fb3ac.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/95553243@N03/13279554623/]600_157013942.jpeg boscoes sept 2012[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/people/95553243@N03/]propblast[/url], on Flickr

in this room both amps are needed
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
SuperBee
1779 posts
Mar 19, 2014
8:49 PM
1847, is there any harp on that cut? Or just the kazoo?
Seriously, that is not loud...but anyway..
I've heRd loud champs...the HG2 is reputedly very loud ... in the context of the OP, what is MTG to do? His 5 watt amp makes him sound like an insect swarm. You would say ? Use a champ? Play better?
1847
1610 posts
Mar 19, 2014
9:54 PM
that was in a 200 seat venue, my amp was right against the world biggest drum set
just ask lee michaels. ha ha
yes i could have been louder, my amp was sitting on top of my bassman, just a flick of the switch, but you can hear it quite well
i would have liked to be louder, the harp players in the audience ,perhaps also, but not the other audience members.
it seemed to me to be the right volume for that song anyway.

the hg 2 is 7 watts i would imagine a bit louder it is very cool indeed.if he can afford one i would highly suggest getting one.
he does not say what his 5 watt amp is so not sure if what he has is feasible. i have an 5 watt hughes kettner,it has somewhat of a bee swarm to it, i kinda like it at times.
it's good to have both a small amp and a larger amp

small amp, large amp final answer.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
MindTheGap
359 posts
Mar 20, 2014
1:31 AM
1847 - Thanks this is very helpful to hear what a Champ sounds like in a live mix. Mostly I've heard them demonstrated solo, which is a different experience.

On the basis of this I've revised my opinion. I can compare with my own recordings. Allowing for differences in playing ability (!) and the nature of the rest of the band, it's not so bad as I thought.

Your band are playing nice and sparsely, whereas mine are inclined towards blues-rock, plus there are more of them so it's a wall of sound. I would prefer if we played more sparingly, and I'm working on that.

I'm going to try your suggesting of small amp, large amp and see what that sounds like. Small amp to give the tone, large amp to give the volume?

Here's your photo, embedded.


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MTG

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 20, 2014 1:32 AM
MindTheGap
360 posts
Mar 20, 2014
2:00 AM
Let's try embedding a clip...release the wasps...

We were playing in an old English Church, of all places, so not the optimum acoustics. I wanted my guitarist/singer to play from the pulpit, but it was not to be.

edit: superbee, the 5W amp is that Joyo that I keep going on and on about. It's loud enough in the sense that you can hear it, but my concern is around *what* you can hear through the mix.

Edit, clips are gone.

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MTG

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 11, 2014 3:22 AM
MindTheGap
454 posts
Jun 11, 2014
3:21 AM
Problem solved, at least to my satisfaction, which is what matters eh.

I switched to using a Harp Break into a keyboard amp. Actually this was part of the campaign to reduce everyone's volume, so I got hold of a keyboard amp with multiple independent inputs, so using it as a mini-PA with central control of volume.

What it isn't is some authentic vintage sound. But now I can actually hear the tone variations, cupping effects and articulations I spend so much time practising. Rather than a uniform-fuzz, competing-for-volume sound. Personally, I can only make the good sounds when I play fairly gently and turn the amp up.

Also, because the amp is some distance away, no feedback problems.

This is a compromise. I expect a lovely right-sized harp amp and vintage mic would sound better. But I'm spending my money on lessons rather than equipment. And if you heard me I'm sure you'd agree that's where it's best spent.

This is in a rehearsal situation BTW.

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mtg


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