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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
new harps time
new harps time
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KentuckyBlues
8 posts
Feb 27, 2014
10:58 PM
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I want to expand my set.
I have a Hammond(a) that has lasted forever and I love the feel, weight, and tone.
I also own a special 20, NOT impressed.
I have on standby (but reedplate needs replacing) a promaster(c), but will get a plate in a diff. Key WHEN I find them :\
so my question, what will I most likely enjoy?
I'm buying my FIRST EVER lee oskar tomorrow, in c, and giving that a go. I hear they last a long time, that's a huge plus for me, and 90% of why I LOVE my Hammond.
a set of Hammonds is at least 300, a set of lee oskars is 199, so I'm hoping I like em.
the marinebands wood comb concerns me, not sure how id clean that, but I'm picking one of those up wed. So well see.
any advice, am I missing something here?
also, should I go ahead and get a Mic, and start learning how to play with one, since that's an end goal?
looking at a legacy lm-200 dynamic harmonica mic that comes with a harp (either a LO, a Ham., or some other choices) for about 60$.
is that a decent mic?
have a small battery tender amp, but are honeytones any good?
alright, thanks guys, my lips hurt from practicing, and I'm probobly going to play little longer :D before work.
take care everyone, glad to be in the community.
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Mirco
123 posts
Feb 28, 2014
12:55 AM
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I've heard good things about the Golden Melody. Jason Ricci is a big fan of them, and I hear they are easier to bend. Since you're trying different kinds, it's worth a try.
For a beginner mic, I would buy either a:
*Bottle of Blues. This can be had cheaply. They're small, durable, and sound great. If you buy it in combo with the cigarette pack sized amp, it costs around $100.
Bottle of Blues
*a Hohner Blues Blaster. I recommend the Blues Blaster as a good practice starting mic. It's decent sounding, but the cool thing is its JT-30 shell. When you get really serious, you can pay someone to put a better element in it and it'll sound golden.
I'm sorry, but I don't know anything about that legacy mic.
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KentuckyBlues
9 posts
Feb 28, 2014
1:11 AM
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I was considering the bottle o blues actually.
haven't heard anything about that mini amp though.
I may just buy a lee oskar and that bottle of blues mic.
the amp i have should be fine for now
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florida-trader
434 posts
Feb 28, 2014
10:41 AM
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KentuckyBlues.
After hanging out on this forum for the past three years I am starting to feel like one of the old timers. That’s because I have seen posts and questions like yours so many times that I can’t count them all. We have all been there. You are new to the harp, new to the forum and you are looking for some guidance. That’s a good thing. I wish I was smart enough to have found a resource like this and to have been able to pick the collective brains of the considerable talent that supports this community. This will be one of those posts that if you look back at your own questions one year from now you will see exactly what I mean. Mark the date on your calendar.
That said here is my two cents. You have had good experience with the Hammond. Most will agree that the Hammond is a solid and quality harp. You are “NOT impressed” with the Special 20. You are treading into some very dangerous territory with that statement. There are a lot of people on this forum for whom the Special 20 is their hands down go to harp. That’s just your inexperience showing – and that’s OK. I would wager that there are a hundred guys on this forum who could spend five minutes tweaking that Special 20 for you and it would play dramatically better. The point is as you further your harmonica education it would be a good idea for you to also start learning about the inner workings of how a harmonica works and what you can do to make it play better. Believe me, it is not rocket science. It is not hard to make just about any quality Out of the Box harmonica play better if you know how. Personally I would put those two skills – learning how to play the harp and learning how to tweak a harp – on an equal footing. You will find that harps that are set up better will open doors for you that you may not know exist if all you play is stock harps. There is sort of a ratcheting effect as you improve each skill.
Lee Oskars have a very faithful following but if you gave me the choice between a Special 20 and a Lee Oskar I would take the Special 20 every time.
About the wood combs and the Marine Band. The Marine Band is without question the most successful harmonica in the history of the world. There are millions upon millions of them in circulation. Just about any issue you will ever have regarding to a Marine Band has been addressed ad infinitum on this forum and any other harmonica forum. It is a given. If you are getting a brand new Marine Band that was manufactured within the past two years you have nothing to worry about. The combs on the new Marine Bands are now completely sealed so you can easily clean them simply by running them under the faucet without fear of warping the wood - which was a significant issue in the first 125 years of its existence. Of greater concern with regard to cleaning the Marine Band is the fact that they are assembled with nails, which means taking them apart and putting them back together is much harder that say a Special 20, Lee Oskar or Hammond – all of which are assembled with screws. But the bottom line is that anyone, such as yourself, who is going through the education and experiment process simply has to try at least one Marine Band. Good choice.
I can’t give you any good advice about mics but I’m sure there will be plenty who will offer their thoughts.
So good luck with your quest. We all hope you find eternal happiness.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Slimharp
225 posts
Feb 28, 2014
11:36 AM
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I play mostly tweaked Sp 20. On the other hand you may try the stock Marine Band, or just for a one time shot you may try a Marine Band Deluxe or a Crossover just to get the feel of a very nice, responsive harp.
A student of mine brought in a Shaker mic, the black one with the volume knob. I was impressed with the tone and volume. I think they are about $70.00.
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Littoral
1044 posts
Feb 28, 2014
11:39 AM
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Tom, really generous of you.
Consider my faith in humanity restored, for the moment :)
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BluesJacketman
86 posts
Feb 28, 2014
11:42 AM
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Don't expect any harp to last you very long as a beginner. But try as many different brands and models of harps as possible. Heres what I would get:
Hohner Marine Band or MB Deluxe or MB Crossover
Seydel 1847 or Session Steel
Any of those are some good durable harps. But as a beginner you will play your harps harder thus wearing them out faster.
And unless you plan on playing acoustic style harp(Sonny Boy, Sonny terry) and don't want the compressed overdriven amplified harp sound I WOULD not buy the legacy mic. I would buy a Blues Blaster, Hohner JT-30, Shure 545 or get a good refurbished bullet mic from reputable seller.
Last Edited by BluesJacketman on Feb 28, 2014 12:05 PM
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groyster1
2553 posts
Feb 28, 2014
11:56 AM
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buying a new harp is pretty much the luck of the draw...I own many sp20s and must say have never had a lemon....at one time I swore off marine band 1896...but now some of the best playing harps I have are pre war marine bands
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DukeBerryman
190 posts
Feb 28, 2014
12:09 PM
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Don't forget about your lips. I like the sound of Golden Melodies and Manjis but both hurt my lips. I like Lee Oskars for the sound, but I also like how they feel. Nice and smooth with a plastic comb. I just run them under the faucet once a month to clean them. No more wood for me! Same reasons why I like Promasters.
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KentuckyBlues
11 posts
Feb 28, 2014
3:19 PM
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Tom, thanks for the post.
as to my special 20 comment. Maybe I got a lemon, but it died in a few days, wheras my Hammond untouched has lasted my full first year, and I've been rough on it learning, I'm sire. Maybe my sp.20 was a dud.. I'll give them another shot.
first the lee oskar, then I'll try the marinebands, and then a sp.20 again, going through the brands anyways because I wana know which set to get.
I have done some tweaking to my promaster, but that lead to its death.. Was adding space on the reeds and idk what happened..
I actually did get the legacy MIC, but have some effects pedals and such for bass and guitar, so I'll try different sounds. Still wana order a bottle o blues next week.
the promaster bit my mustache and beard, not a plus.
I will just have to buy a few of each and see what my lips prefer.
thanks for the responses everyone, I appreciate it.
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Goldbrick
318 posts
Feb 28, 2014
3:54 PM
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The legacy is a nice clean mic. It works well for vocals too -I have one and use some echo on it to fatten it up and it can sound pretty good- kinda more rockabilly than chicago style blues
Works well as a bass drum mic too
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KentuckyBlues
12 posts
Feb 28, 2014
5:40 PM
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Other than echo, what's a good effect on harp. I have a chorus, flange or something, some others..not that good though.
what's a good pedal to give a Chicago blues kinda tone?
I know the pedal doesn't make the sound, but it doesnt hurt either haha
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jbone
1508 posts
Feb 28, 2014
6:39 PM
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I should begin by saying, I have been steady at this harp thing for quite a few years. Over 40. I've tried a lot of harps, mics, amps, etc etc.
Here are my thoughts for what they are worth:
I did not like Lee Oskars, they seemed a bit tight and shrill to me. I favor a few different Suzukis, chief among them the Manji. Also have a Hammond which is a very nice harp. It's in Eb which does see some use. I am also the proud owner of a Suzuki Pure model, rosewood everything except reed plates. Beautiful and a very warm sound, but expensive. And really I need a harp with some raw volume to it.
I think the Sp20 is a pretty durable harp, the Marine Band, many like them, I don't. I used Bushman Delta Frost for a few years but availability was an issue. I play regularly so I need a dependable source and a working set of harps. I favor Suzukis but have yet to try any Seydels.
I also play chromatic and have a Hering 5148 and a Baritono both in C, and a Suzuki SCX 12 hole in G. All very good harps that have not disappointed me! Hering makes several diatonic 10 hole harps as well but none have really impressed me, and it used to be hard to get them from Brazil but this may have improved.
About mics. I would begin with a simple Shure sm57, into a p.a. It can also plug into a tube amp at some point but I've always liked the clean clear unidirectional features of one in a decent p.a. The highs need to be cut and the gain as well or it's a squealing nightmare, but with a channel set for harp, the 57 is a great work horse mic. It can be made to honk if it's cupped tightly. Can also be sung through as well.
For a "cool" mic, a bullet, I have a Shure brown bullet, the 707a, however it has a very hot greasy sounding controlled magnetic element in it and serves very well in a lot of different tube amps. I also have a couple of different crystal element mics, one of which was very inexpensive, an Astatic 332. Small, light, and puts out pretty well. The other also performs well and is in a bullet shell. It's basically an Astatic JT30. My most-used mic these days though, is a Shure 585 ball mic. It gives good response and I can put it in a stand and cup it and do hand effects all night with no strain. It has a low z dynamic cartridge from the 60's.
You may want to read up on different mics and elements to see which you'd like to start with. I never wasted time with a Bottle o blues mic, it always just seemed too cheep. I want some BALLS on my mic. A cm or dynamic fills the bill, while a crystal is great for a bit more swing/jazz kind of playing in say 3rd position.
Amps. Wow. There is so much to say about amps. Some are really great for harp, some work well with some changes, and some are just not built for harp mics at all. My favorite amps have been a Fender Champ, a Fender Princeton tremolo, my current Silvertone 1482, and a replica Bassman I had built when I had more dough. I have played through dozens of amps with lots of mics. My current needs are met by a small- 12-13 watts- amp. I have a phobic response to high volumes on a stage these days, having lost some hearing and some of my voice capacity, and blown up a lot of harps, just trying to mix in with the band. Each of us has our own challenges as time goes on but I have opted for an amplified duo and lower volumes. After all we play small to medium venues so why equip for arena dates? Overkill. Wears me out just lugging it in and setting it up!
Effects? I have a Lone wolf Harp Delay and I'm happy with it.
There's my 1/50th of a buck. Hope it helps!
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robbert
289 posts
Feb 28, 2014
7:28 PM
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@Kentuckyblues: You probably unintentionally widened the gaps too much. It takes very little movement to set a gap. You should only widen the gaps if the reeds are sticking when you play. Check out several vids on Youtube that cover gapping. It's easy to set the gaps, but it is also easy to overdo it. You can expect to have some mistakes on the first harps you work on, but unless a reed needs replacing due to fracturing, you should be able to salvage your Promaster. Of course, it may need to be re-tuned a little, etc.
You should try a number of brands of harp as you go along...it's the only way to discover what you really like. Also, your tastes may change over the years. After playing for a while, you'll be able to play any good quality model, anyway.
Sp. 20s, and Crossovers are my favorite models, but I've played Lee Oskars, Marine Bands, Big Rivers, Session Steels, Favorites(Seydel Blues), Manjis, Bluesharps, Old Stanbys, and I don't know all else. I still have several of these various harps in my working collection, although its only fair to say that I've upgraded a lot of my older harps.
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Harp Study
15 posts
Feb 28, 2014
7:50 PM
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K.B.
I have only been playing for about two years but I can tell you my personal opinion (experience). First I have spent a lot of money searching for the perfect out of the box harmonica and it turns out there isn't one.
I have bought many brands in lots of keys and the truth is that at some point you need to learn some basic tweaking because they all come with a flaw here and there (unless you have the money to buy custom harps; which I dont).
The longer I play the more I realize that the harp brand doesn't make that much of a difference. (i.e. You name a descent harp and someone on this forum can find a great pro playing that harp.)
What matters is what fits or works for you. I found that I love golden melodies, blues masters and seydel sessions but you might find a very different harp or group of harps.
Asking someone what the best harp is would be very similar to asking them what their favorite color is. There is no wrong answer. Unfortunately you have to try them for yourself to find "your" harp.
Happy searching. (Keep in mind all harps have a lemon here and there and the key makes a big difference.)
Last Edited by Harp Study on Feb 28, 2014 8:17 PM
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KentuckyBlues
14 posts
Feb 28, 2014
8:27 PM
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Thanks for all the responses guys.
I'm going to buy a replacement reed set for the special 20, maybe bflat if they have that...
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MP
3101 posts
Mar 01, 2014
10:55 AM
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RockinRonsMusic4Less has SP/20 reed plates. He's the best!
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Affordable Reed Replacement
Marks Harmonica Tune-up
Click user name MP for contact info
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nacoran
7563 posts
Mar 01, 2014
11:33 AM
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I'm a big fan of trying different harps. I think, in addition to specific models, it's good to try the different shapes- the jellybeans like the Golden Melodies, the classic tin sandwiches like the Marine Band, and the long covers like the Hammond. The feel of a harp in your hand is important. (I'm partial to the long covers).
There are 4 or 5 brands that get good reviews- Tombo (Lee Oskar), Seydel, Suzuki, Hohner and to a lesser extent, Hering.
Try a couple different temperaments. For complex musical reasons it's impossible to tune a harp so that the single notes of the scale sound perfect for melodies AND also sound smooth on the chords. At one end, you have harps in Equal Temperament set up to sound great on melodies, like the Golden Melody and the Lee Oskar. At the other end you have the Just Temperament where the chords are smoothed out, but the melody may not sound quite in tune. There are various compromise tunings in between. They all have the same notes in the same holes, but the notes are a couple cents one way or the other. Some people have a strong preference one way or the other. Some don't. Some like to mix and match. Find out which one you are before you buy a whole set.
Warning- I like Lee Oskars, but they are mustache grabbers (although over time, maybe I've figured out how to avoid that. They don't seem to catch me anymore, or maybe they just ripped out the troublemaking hairs so many times they didn't grow back.)
For the price, Sp20s and Lee Oskars, I'd say, are the best value. Pricier harps are better, but for bang for the buck, they seem to be the sweet spot.
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Nate
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KentuckyBlues
20 posts
Mar 04, 2014
1:42 AM
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I've ordered my lo in c, and will soon be ordering a sp.20 in d, a marine band in bflat, and I also was looking at the seydels. Is the steel session one good, what's your preference for that, how are they compared to the others
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bluemoose
946 posts
Mar 04, 2014
4:50 PM
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(never gloat over how long your favourite harp has lasted because you know the 4 draw is listening and will be planning a trip south in the next week. True story, been there, done that.) :(
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MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
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garry
503 posts
Mar 07, 2014
6:23 PM
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@bluemoose: they can smell fear, ya know.
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KentuckyBlues
28 posts
Mar 08, 2014
2:05 AM
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Haha, funny, because after saying this and sitting in on a few jams it does seem a bit more worn out sounding...
I wonder if they can also smell paranoia, because if so I'm in a real ditch
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nacoran
7587 posts
Mar 08, 2014
2:31 PM
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Two of my Seydels have brass reeds, (low tuned) and I like them a lot. It's hard to give a honest comparison to the third one though, because it's been modified. It's a Turboslide (with magnets that change the pitch like a whammy bar) which changes the tone a little. That's a fun harp too, but it's like apples to oranges at that point. I really love the hand feel of the Seydels. Sometimes the Hohners feel like they were designed by someone who never actually held it for very long, at least in comparison. The steel reeds are supposed to last longer, and most people seem to find that is true, but every now and then someone complains they break faster, over and over. I suspect it may have something to do with how the different metals worry and different playing styles. I haven't had any problems with either their steel or their brass reeds, except my double low f's bottom reed sometimes misaligns. They warn that the super lows can have that problem if you don't store them on their back (holes up) because the extra weight on the reeds can tug on them when you leave them lying in other positions, but it's only ever the very lowest reed on the very lowest harp in my case, and just whacking it on my leg unsticks it. Very nice harps.
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Nate
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