harpnoodler
62 posts
Feb 19, 2014
9:44 AM
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Hi all! I'm working my way through Sandy Weltman's series on the pentatonic scales and this note appears in one of the phrases. I can't hit it on any of my harps. Is it just a matter of technique? (otherwise my blow bends are pretty good: in tune and sustainable)... is there a gapping or other set-up trick, is it just practice? Any thoughts, inspiration, tips or comiseration will be gratefully accepted.
Cheers,
Andrew
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barbequebob
2474 posts
Feb 19, 2014
9:51 AM
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To get any bend, including the 2 bends on 10 blow, it is a matter of refining your playing technique and under NO circumstances should you try to force it to happen by using any sort of heavily increased breath force to do it because it'll never happen that way and it's basically manipulation (in an EXTREMELY subtle way an most players have a tendency to over exaggerate EVERYTHING when they're teaching themselves how to play.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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WinslowYerxa
498 posts
Feb 19, 2014
9:59 AM
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Try getting on a low-pitched harp, the lowest one you have. That can help you by making the high note a bit lower in pitch and therefore easier to isolate.
The higher the note, the narrower and harder to find is the sweet spot for that bend. Think of how the frets on a guitar get closer and closer as you go up the neck. The sweet spot for the one-semitone Hole 10 bend is at something like the 16th fret on a guitar, so you really need to slow down and not zoom past it.
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Winslow
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harpwrench
774 posts
Feb 19, 2014
10:02 AM
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Not being able to hit it on any of your harps kinda points to suspicious technique, but yes poor reed calibration can throw a big monkey wrench into playing them.
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nacoran
7538 posts
Feb 19, 2014
12:14 PM
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Winslow's advice rings true with me. I didn't get any 'high' bends until I tried doing them on my LLF and I did it almost by accident. A few minutes later I was doing them on G, and then F#. It was just a matter of figuring out what I was supposed to be doing with my mouth. (The reverse is true for low bends, I think.)
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Nate
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The Iceman
1467 posts
Feb 19, 2014
12:16 PM
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Winslow's description is very well thought out.
Where the bends "live" on 10 hole exhale is in a very narrow range at the very front of the mouth, so is quite easy to go past them if you aren't sensitized to the subtlety.
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The Iceman
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harpnoodler
63 posts
Feb 19, 2014
12:37 PM
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Thanks for the advice. I'll work on my low F. I can easily get the full step 10 hole bend even on my F#, but the 1/2 step has eluded me even on the LowF. I'll work on subtlety.
Andrew
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harpwrench
775 posts
Feb 19, 2014
1:25 PM
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In order for reeds to sing at all there must be a pressure differential, and for them to bend there must be resonance coupling. If they're gapped too wide and/or the reed plates aren't contacting the comb properly, both are compromised. Part of "breaking in" a harp is the buildup of "stuff" to fill cracks and crevices. You can help yourself out a lot by doing some simple gapping, along with the recommended practicing. If the reeds don't respond on the straight notes with an easy inhale/exhale, tighten the gaps just until they do. Don't over do it or you'll have a sticky harp down the road. If it's a screwed together harp, take a file to the little "volcanoes" that are pushed up around the threads.
Last Edited by harpwrench on Feb 19, 2014 1:30 PM
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harpnoodler
64 posts
Feb 19, 2014
4:48 PM
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Thank you all for the good advice and encouragement (which is what I really needed)! After finding a quiet nook in the house, away from wife kids, MIL and dog --who gives me away with howling accompaniment, I was able to coax a half-step bend out of the Low F after just tweaking the gap a mite higher and working on it for 5 min or so. I also managed to find an old forgotten G harp I had replaced with a Paddy Richter version that bends smoothly through the two halftones!
The Bb I need will take a while longer...
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Chris L
35 posts
Feb 19, 2014
6:11 PM
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GMaj7 (Greg Jones) gave me the following advice about 6 months ago:
"Nudge the draw side reeds into slot a little. The blow bends will come out much cleaner with a tighter draw side gap since both reeds work together in a blow bend on holes 7-10".
While there is no substitute for patiently developing technique, this tweak takes a minute and has made the technique building much simpler for me.
Last Edited by Chris L on Feb 19, 2014 6:12 PM
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harpdude61
1970 posts
Feb 19, 2014
7:35 PM
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I respectfully disagree that "blow bends "live" on 10 hole exhale is in a very narrow range at the very front of the mouth".
If you blow bend from the front of your mouth, that means you are playing "small" and more than likely blow bending by closing the mouth slightly to change the pitch....or you are shrinking your resonator by filling the front of your mouth with more of your tongue. Maybe both. I agree, this is a very tight range.
You will have a much easier time, richer tone, and much better control of pitch if you learn to keep the jaw dropped, open the throat, stay relaxed, and bend from the throat or back of the mouth. Don't let the mouth close. This does change pitch but at the same time thins the tone.
You will also find it much easier to use the blow bends as quick passing notes later on if you learn correctly.
So much easier to control pitch of ANY type, bend or overbend, with as large a resonator as possible. If you close your mouth and move the pitch controller to the front of the mouth, you really are making things tight and tense.
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kudzurunner
4557 posts
Feb 19, 2014
8:42 PM
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I think one key to the 1/2 step 10 blow bend is having a good sense of what melody you're trying to produce. It is indeed a very subtle move; a "splitting hairs" move.
I would start by trying for the fourth/major-third/root melody in the first octave (cross harp), which is 4 blow, 3 draw, 2 draw. Then move it up to the second octave: 7 blow, 7 draw, 6 blow. Then move it up again: 10 blow, 10 blow 1/2 step bend, 9 blow.
That 1/2 step bend is a major third, cross harp. It's much easier to play it if you play it as part of a melody, rather than as a "technique" you're trying to execute. Do whatever it takes to make a pretty melody. And know what the melody sounds like in the lower octaves.
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Rubes
804 posts
Feb 19, 2014
11:52 PM
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Geez Harpnoodler....you're getting advice from some world class harp heads here..how good is that!!!!!!
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Old Man Rubes at Reverbnation
Dads in Space at Reverbnation
Benny and Rubes at Reverbnation
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The Iceman
1468 posts
Feb 20, 2014
8:07 AM
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Willing to revisit throat bending, Harpdude.
As stated above, you suggest bending from the throat but do not get into specifics.
How would you teach throat bending for high end blow bending to a beginning student?
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The Iceman
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harpdude61
1971 posts
Feb 20, 2014
9:08 AM
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Same as draw bending, overblows, and overdraws Iceman. Keep the jaw dropped, everything relaxed, and learn to reshape your throat.
I will admit this. It probably takes my students longer to learn something like the two hole draw bend than it does yours. It takes a while to develop the muscle.
I teach the lip block method.
I have them tilt the harp and keep all facial muscles as relaxed as possible. I start with the visualization that you are sitting up, falling asleep, and as your mouth falls open the harp goes in. Tilted! I use the terms kuh and yah to teach deep throat movement. If they go into kissy shape to use facial muscles I have them stop. I tell them it's cheating. Quick and easy results can lead to bad habits in just about any learning endeavor.
I can't tell you what to do with the throat other than learn to reshape the opening. I tell them to visualize having a round cloth sheet attached around the circumference of the throat opening in several places. Use the throat muscles to keep it pulled tight. Vary the tightness to vary the pitch...blow bends, draw bends, or overbends.
Wish I could expalin it better. My philosiphy is more control is available to the player with a larger resonator, a larger opening to push/pull air thru, and a larger quantity of air available. Simple physics. Combine this with everything being totally relaxed except the working throat/control valve and you have a bending machine.
I developed my techniques based on always hearing from players like BBQ Bob to relax everything and play softly. I also heard the term large resonator, big, and open often on this forum. I also picked up a lot from finding close-up videos of players like Jason. Watching the throat, looking for the mouth to close, etc..etc...
Like I say, mine may be the harder road, but once learned and muscles developed, I am pleased with the results.
I find it takes less effort to play a two draw bent than it does unbent. I can play overblows and overdraws at a whisper and easily hold on pitch or bend up.
As far as blowbends...playing between the three pitches of 10 blow works well. Tone is of the same color and vibrato and whatever dynamics you choose are available. Even on harps as high as E and F.
To be honest my techniques to get what is available on the harp with a great sound, are ahead of my musicality. I'm working hard now to apply what I have developed. It's like having a great golf swing but needing to learn how to play the courses and do whatever, wherever, whenever to mazimize my overall game.
Hope this was clearer than mud. I know my words mean less than these big names because I am a nobody. I do consider myself a professional student and I am not afraid to explore and try stuff outside the box. The harp is amazing. Exploration is exciting. I refuse to believe that every possibility within a diatonic harmonica has already been discovered and developed.
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isaacullah
2639 posts
Feb 20, 2014
9:12 AM
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This thread is full of some really great knowledge and advice. If the "forum archive" were still active, I would put a link to this thread first on the list. I will be ruminating on this data for quite some time. Thank you!
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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The Iceman
1470 posts
Feb 20, 2014
9:41 AM
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Harpdude...
Nobody is a nobody on this list.
Was able to just start getting a blow bend on hole 9 trying the above as you described.
As I said, it warrants further exploration.
Thanks.
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The Iceman
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harpdude61
1972 posts
Feb 20, 2014
11:01 AM
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Thanks Iceman...your methods are credible and respected. I admire the veterans that are open to try anything new, related to the harmonica. We all must realize that the learning never ends.
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Rubes
806 posts
Feb 20, 2014
12:00 PM
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....yes harpdude.....you are one of those 'world class harp heads'!!!!!!!
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Old Man Rubes at Reverbnation
Dads in Space at Reverbnation
Benny and Rubes at Reverbnation
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harpnoodler
65 posts
Feb 20, 2014
12:31 PM
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I'm humbled by the generosity on this forum. You guys are great!
Harpdude, your post is going to take some digesting by me, I think. When I wrote above that I could get the full B10 bend "easily" on the F#, that was not quite true. Unless I've been practicing (I tend to avoid high-end playing on that harp), it takes a couple of minutes for muscle memory to kick in before I can get it reliably, but the way I do it involves tight lip-pursing and bearing down hard, which in every other situation --and also this one, if I read your post right-- is exactly the wrong thing to do. On the G, where I can get the three tones, my embouchure is way more relaxed and there is no need to force the air. In general though, it's easier for me to get the blow bends using the tensed-up pucker face and "shallow" air rather than "deep" air, but if I compare my version of Mitch Kashmar's "Dirty deal" intro, with his, my notes do seem to be missing some "richness" that I associate with playing with a full chest
As Adam put it, on my higher harps it's a technique rather than part of a musical phrase and I appreciate his gentle reminder that the phrase that set this off might work just as well with a substitution.
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tmf714
2426 posts
Feb 20, 2014
1:10 PM
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"but if I compare my version of Mitch Kashmar's "Dirty deal" intro, with his, my notes do seem to be missing some "richness" that I associate with playing with a full chest"
Mostly because Mitch is tongue blocking ALL the high register blow notes -draws and bends as well.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Feb 20, 2014 1:10 PM
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WinslowYerxa
500 posts
Feb 20, 2014
5:11 PM
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Personally I don't notice any difference in tone quality or control whether I bend from the back or the front. Both produce full tone and give good control.
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Winslow
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Chris L
36 posts
Feb 20, 2014
6:42 PM
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For practicing hitting the half tone bend on 10, nothing in my (limited) experience beats the major scale in 1st position (the key of the harp). It is so familiar the bend soon seems almost automatic. Run right up (and down again)from the blow 4 to set the notes in your mind.
Just another student, but it works for me.
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harpdude61
1973 posts
Feb 21, 2014
1:33 AM
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Winslow....I'm sure with practice the front or back method will get the results you desire. I am missing something if you can keep your resonator large while you do it from the front of your mouth. What may be happening is you are keeping your resonator small while attempting it from the back of the throat. That is why they sound the same. Are you tilting the harp up? Even top pros will not get immediate "best results" in an attempt at something new.
My goal is to be able to move quickly, without major embouchure changes, between all notes on the harp. Jason does very quick, yet very clean riffs, using overblows, overdraws, blow bends, draw bends, blow notes, and draw notes. Not sure he could do this if he had to do drastic embouchure changes between each 32nd note. Watch our very own TheoBurke on some of his videos. He plays all the note types and stays very relaxed indeed.
Harpnoodler..if all you are after is a high end Whammer Jammer opening lick, then the clamp down hard, close the jaw pressure method works okay.
I stand by my statement that throat playing will get you every available note on the harp, with a big, rich tone, and enable you to move quickly between all available notes with a minimum of muscle/tension/pressure use. Slight adjustments in the throat can get it all. Buddha knew this. He didn't "clamp down" when he went to the high end of the harp.
Using whatever method you use, can you go between the 4 pitches of three hole draw playing whole notes with deep rich vibrato coming from the throat and below. How about quick tongued 32nd notes on each pitch. Say two counts on each pitch while tonging and moving up and down. How about these two techniques on 10 hole blow bends (3 pitches)? while bending overblows and overdraws up and down?
I picked up a LOT of influence on my methods from watching AND studying the man I consider the most exciting player ever to put harp to lips. Do I need to post the Walter Trout video again with the magic happening all over a high F harp?
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The Iceman
1472 posts
Feb 21, 2014
7:26 AM
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and why not? No one has THE ULTIMATE answer. Keep an open mind. Explore. Be curious.
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The Iceman
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Frank
3881 posts
Feb 22, 2014
4:06 AM
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Winslow will be hanging out with Jason on the upcoming teaching camp that they organized together - maybe they'll talk technique...He also wrote a transcription book on Blues Travelers Cd FOUR, that has some interesting examples of floating around the high end that some players might find interesting :)
The ULTIMATE answer... lies within technical self -AWARENESS, even if partially :)
Last Edited by Frank on Feb 22, 2014 4:12 AM
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