Barley Nectar
265 posts
Feb 01, 2014
8:01 AM
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I sent this letter to Hohner USA marketing. If you agree, send them a letter yourself. Maybe we can get the price down on there products.
Many people who buy your excellent quality harmonicas, typicly keep their harmonicas in a harp case. This eliminates the need for plastic or nylon carrying/pocket cases. In the intrest of product priceing, I would like the pocket case to be optional. This should reduce the price of the harmonica without a case, thus saveing me money. Please consider shipping harps in a eco friendly, recyclable cardboard container, made of recycled material. Thank you...
Here is the link: http://us.playhohner.com/contact-us/
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Slimharp
158 posts
Feb 01, 2014
8:24 AM
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Nectar, great idea. IMHO Hohner would have to design a new package, accquire new materials, and tool up a machine to make it. Hohner is not cutting anybody any slack. Case in point: A student of mine blew out a 4 draw on a new Crossover. We didnt have the receipt. I called Hohner USA - Mark ( reed specialist ) and told him the situ. No free replacement. Had to buy new reed plates ( not just draw ). They cost me $8.00 less than an entire new harp. I love their harps but they are not cutting anybody any slack. Thats how they do business.
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Kingley
3425 posts
Feb 01, 2014
8:29 AM
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Although I understand where you're coming from, many of us still keep our harps in those little boxes. So I'm quite happy for Hohner to provide them with the harp. I suspect that even if they stopped providing the plastic boxes and used recyclable cardboard containers that the prices would actually increase. This is because they would have to find new suppliers, have new moulds made, new printing done, new marketing, etc. All those things would most likely boost the price up. Many people complain about the price of a diatonic harp, but in reality they are still one of the cheapest musical instruments around.
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 01, 2014 8:57 AM
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nacoran
7522 posts
Feb 01, 2014
8:52 AM
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It would be interesting to sit down and crunch the numbers to see what the average cost of playing different instruments is.
The difference between some of their low end harps seems to be what sort of case they come in- I think somewhere between Pocket Pal and BluesBand they switch from cardboard to plastic cases. The harps, other than their stamping, seem to be otherwise identical, but it makes a $2-$5 difference in what they charge.
It may not make a huge difference in cost- I think the plastic cases are just there as a sign of quality. Someone starting out on harp probably doesn't have a gig case yet, so it may create brand loyalty by getting you to try them first (Lee Oskar cases interlock, although I'm not sure I've ever seen someone do much with that).
If they wanted to switch to cardboard, there are several ways they could do it- bill it as an ecologically friendly move, ship cases that the music store could offer for free with purchase, or actually, maybe they could link it to a loyalty program- you know how cigarettes used to market points for bling- what if you buy a harp with a cardboard case and you get a point. You can redeem the points for accessories. You buy enough harps and you get a free carry case! (A good way to make people stick with your brand.)
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Kingley
3426 posts
Feb 01, 2014
9:02 AM
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I be willing to bet that most likely more harmonicas are sold to "non harp players". Many small kids have one at some point and a lot of guitarists have one or two. I doubt they ever think about using a dedicated case for them or tuning, gapping, sealing combs, flat sanding, overblows, bends or any of the other stuff we obsess over. I think we harmonica players live in a bit of a bubble and maintain a slightly skewed view of things.
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Barley Nectar
266 posts
Feb 01, 2014
10:34 AM
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I am referring to the zippered nylon pocket case that the higher end harps come in. MBD, XO, possabily the TB. These cases are sewn together and reinforced. They have a zipper closure and silkscreened logos. These are far more expensive to produce then an injection molded plastic box. They are nice but useless to real players that have several harps. Maybe if I was a duck hunter I could put my duck calls in them. Just seems like I am paying for unnecessary stuff...BN
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Slimharp
159 posts
Feb 01, 2014
10:35 AM
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Ive been playing Hohners since 1964. I have never seen Hohner drop prices for anything ever ( including when they were making crap MB's in the 70's )regardless of case, color, plastic, or popularity. I may have missed something along they way, but I have never seen it. I thought other harps coming on the market may change something. No slurs intended here - have you ever known a German ? One thing they dont do is drop prices.
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Kingley
3427 posts
Feb 01, 2014
10:54 AM
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Interesting what Hohner charge for a replacement case for the following:
Marine Band 1896 case =$13
Marine Band Deluxe case = $17
Crossover case = $26
Thuderbird case = $24
Now as far as I can tell apart from the print on them the Deluxe, Crossover and Thunderbird have the same case. So I don't see how Honer can really justify a difference of $9 between the cases. I guess you're paying for the name.
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MP
3083 posts
Feb 01, 2014
11:55 AM
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So, if you need a case for your Crossover it is better to order a Marine Band Deluxe case. :-)
They are nice cases and provide a lot of protection. I know this is true because I keep a B-rad and a Crossover in them floating loose in a backpack where they take a lot of abuse.
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Barley Nectar
267 posts
Feb 01, 2014
12:00 PM
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$26.00 Unfreekin real. Well this just talked me out of buying another XO. (I am of German desent) I'll bet cardboard boxes are cheeper!
Well, I gota go. I am working on my only car today. A 1988 Volvo 245 w/ 330,000 mls. Who says I'm cheep...LOL
( : ...BN
Write Hohner a letter guys. The sweaky wheel gets the grease...
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Feb 01, 2014 12:02 PM
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Slimharp
162 posts
Feb 02, 2014
7:27 AM
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I rest my case ( no pun intended ). Hohner is not cutting anybody any slack. As stated before, a set of XO reed plates for $8.00 less than the retail price of a complete harp !!!!! When it comes to Hohner make sure your nose is working well cause you will pay through it. Sometimes it's worth it though.
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harp-er
504 posts
Feb 02, 2014
9:25 AM
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"Many people complain about the price of a diatonic harp, but in reality they are still one of the cheapest musical instruments around."
That's only true if you own one or two harps. It quickly becomes not true if you are at all serious and put together an entire set of 12 or 14 better harps, plus "extras", and maintain them, and replace parts, and replace harps, etc.
This idea was validated for me when I by chance met a pro musician in the Albuquerque airport a coupla years ago, a fellow by the stage name of Texas Johnny Boy. He was playing MB Deluxes, and said his harp playing was considerably more expensive than his sax playing, for the reasons mentioned.
Even us non-pros, who are at least serious and own many harps, can, I think, relate with this experience.
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robbert
271 posts
Feb 02, 2014
9:29 AM
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...and then there are chromatics...oh yeah, and mics, and pedals, and amps, it definitely can mount up...
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clyde
342 posts
Feb 02, 2014
2:18 PM
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harp-er
texas johnny boy must play a cheap sax or paid it off years ago. a cheap (good) student alto sax is about $1400.00 and a bari like mine is about four grand(and that's not one a pro would want to use.
upkeep is not cheap either. saxes have to be adjusted at least once a year and a cheap set up (if it's done right) and not by the guy that works in the back at the music store like I used to, was about $400.00 years ago.
prices may vary but not by a lot.
by the way when hohner or anyone else stops putting harps in boxes they will tell you they did it instead of a price increase.....and then they will raise the price in six months
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A440
128 posts
Feb 02, 2014
2:24 PM
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I don't like the plastic boxes. Again, another area where I think Seydel is ahead of the competition. I keep my harps in a case. If I want to take one or two in my pocket, I use the leather sleeve to keep dirt or pocket lint out of the harps. I've never bent or crushed a harmonica in 20 years, so I think the need for a rigid box is over-rated.
While I don't like paying for something I don't use, the environmental aspect bothers me more. I try to avoid buying plastic packaging of any kind.
Last Edited by A440 on Feb 02, 2014 2:28 PM
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clyde
343 posts
Feb 02, 2014
2:26 PM
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a440
think how the cows feel
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A440
129 posts
Feb 02, 2014
2:40 PM
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The cow is already in a hamburger by the time those Seydel sleeves are produced.
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Frank101
1 post
Feb 02, 2014
2:44 PM
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Anybody else remember when Marine Bands DID come in a cardboard case? (Which fell apart soon after purchase.)
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bublnsqueak
19 posts
Feb 02, 2014
8:23 PM
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Won't work I'm afraid.
From Hohners perspective the right price is what the market will stand.
The cost of manufacture is only relevant when counting profit or deciding whether the market price will cover the cost of manufacture.
The only way to bring the price down is for everyone to stop buying or for us to get together and bulk buy. You could try haggling I guess.
P
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Barley Nectar
273 posts
Feb 02, 2014
9:34 PM
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Well, When I walk into a jam, I'm carying about two grand in two hands! Walked into a jam once and the kid at the door said $4.00 please. I responded, I have a lot of money in this gear, I will entertain your audiance for free. I have no intention of paying to entertain. The kid said, well, that's a good point. With a smile, he said, come on in. Good jam too...BN
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Kingley
3429 posts
Feb 02, 2014
11:00 PM
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It just never ceases to amaze me how much harp players moan about the cost of their gear or about lugging it around to gigs. I never hear any other musicians complain about the cost or weight of their gear. Even if you add up the cost of really good gear it's still relatively speaking a drop in the ocean. If you avoid G.A.S. and buy sensibly you could outfit yourself with a Bassman RI, couple of good mics, a delay pedal, leads and a couple of full sets of harps for a couple of thousand dollars. Which when compared to almost any other instrument is a very cheap "in". If that's still too expensive then you can use a delay pedal and Harp Break/Attack into the PA (which is what I do), an SM57 and just carry the harps you really need and not harps in every key (I carry 7 harps). That set up is only a few hundred dollars. An even cheaper set up is playing straight into the vocal mic. Then you only have the cost of harps to worry about. See when you look at it logically, things don't need to cost a lot. After all you make the sound, not your gear. If you're music is good, it'll sound good direct into a PA. If it ain't good then all the gear in the world ain't going to make it sound any better.
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 02, 2014 11:02 PM
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STME58
634 posts
Feb 02, 2014
11:35 PM
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With some experience in the cost of manufacture, I would place the cost of a special 20 as follows;
Case $0.80 Tooling cost $20K 4 tools
Comb $0.30 Tooling cost $15K 1 tool with slide
Reed Plate $0.25 Tooling cost $10K
Reeds $0.03 Tooling Cost $2k per reed
Covers $0.15 Tooling Cost $20K
Screw $0.03
Nut $0.01
Rivet $0.01
Adding this up you get a direct material cost of $2.87.
Before you cry foul, there is $135,000 worth of tooling to get these parts made with. This also doesn't include the labor to put the thing together, the plant overhead, shipping, marketing and a host of other things that go into getting a product to a store where you can buy it. Labor would be particularly hard to estimate on a harmonica because of the skill required to get it set up right.
These are just estimates made from looking at the parts, and knowing a bit about the materials and tooling required to make them. I am assuming they would use processes similar to what I design for, progressive stamping tools, class A injection molding and the like. I am assuming about 300k pieces per month, because that is the volume I typically design for. I have no idea how many harps Hohner actually sells. You can get by with less tooling expense, but the part prices go up.
PS:I like the Hohner pouch cases. Rockin Ron's has them listed for $4.35.
Last Edited by STME58 on Feb 03, 2014 12:03 AM
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STME58
635 posts
Feb 02, 2014
11:57 PM
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The harmonica seems like a cheap instrument to the uninitiated. I would say it is actually a medium priced instrument. As @clyde pointed out, a good set of harps is cheaper to buy and maintain than a good sax. In my experience a trombone is much cheaper to buy and maintain than a set of harps. You can get a good strait tenor new for $2k-$3k and there is really no routine maintenance you can't do yourself.(collision repair is expensive, but fortunately I have not had that happen.)
I bought my tenor trombone for $600 in the mid 70's and could probably sell it now for $1500. What will my harps be worth in 20-30 years? Not much! Who wants a used harp!
A good set of harps including low keys is $1200-$2400 (24 harps $50-$100 each) and in my experience a new set of reed plates at $25-$50 every month or two. Fortunately I can only play so much and my reed plate replacement rate does not go up with the number of harps I own. More harps, less hours per month on each harp. I have never had more than two trombones at a time but the things just don't wear out.
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Kingley
3431 posts
Feb 03, 2014
12:20 AM
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A new set of reed plates every month or two! Damn! You must be blowing the shit out of those harps. If you're going through them at that rate, then less breath force and more technique is required I'd say. Either that or you must be gigging hell of a lot. My average harp lasts best part of a year before it needs a touch up on the tuner. I can't remember the last time I broke a reed or had to change a reed plate. Although I do remember it was sometime back in the 1990's, when I was averaging 100-150 gigs a year.
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 03, 2014 12:25 AM
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STME58
636 posts
Feb 03, 2014
12:43 AM
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When I said a new set of reed plates every month or two I did not mean per harp. My harps typically last a year or two ( unless I am woodsheding something new, like overblows.)With 24 harps each going 2 years between reed plate replacements, that's a set of reed plates a month.
I am learning to replace individual reeds. I am also finding harps last longer as I learn to play better, probably for the reasons you mentioned.
No matter how hard I blow my trombone, nothing breaks! It may not sound good for the same reasons a harp blown to hard doesn't, but nothing breaks. I think a harmonica would survive being dropped better than a trombone would though.
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Slimharp
163 posts
Feb 03, 2014
6:52 AM
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Rigs and costs vary. I know in my lifetime I have seen good players use a P.A. ( with the exception of something like a Jimmy Reed tune )one in two blue moons. One the other end of the spectrum great gear is not going to make you play any better if you are not on your game. It cant hurt.
For me,over time, picking up good gear is also like a hobby. I dont ski, hunt, boat or buy expensive cars anymore. I have a lot of coin invested in my gear.I dont have to. I can get a decent SM 57 and a stock Sp 20 and with a good mix on the PA go out and tear it up, however the variables in that situation are huge. I guess it depends on what you want. The cost of what I have in my case ( harps, 3 mics,2 pedals ) would buy a very very nice custom Strat, Tele, P Bass, Les Paul. Not gonna make me play any better, but if I play well it sure as hell will make me sound better.
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Zadozica
288 posts
Feb 03, 2014
4:03 PM
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In addition, there are fixed cost of production, salary, health benefits, retirement contributions, and corporate taxes that Hohner pays. Those are in addition to their required profit margins.
For those of you who think the cost should be lower, you can always start your own harmonica company and under price Hohner - good luck!
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