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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Your Search for (Amplified) Tone
Your Search for (Amplified) Tone
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MindTheGap
162 posts
Jan 11, 2014
4:28 AM
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Question to the experienced players...
There are so many different amplified sounds/tones from I hear on studio and live recordings. So many to pick from, and I'm sure they need a combination of acoustic technique and equipment. And I read about the lengths people go to get their kit right (amp mods, mics etc).
Players often have a their identifiable, signature sound.
So, how did you come by your signature sound(s), how long did it take, and at what point did you decide that it was right? Did you want to sound the same as someone else, or unique? Did you decide you liked it, or did someone tell you? Did it just work out of the box?
I'm looking to understand your journey rather than the technicals here.
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Rick Davis
2847 posts
Jan 11, 2014
6:30 AM
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It's a journey. Every time I hear a player say he has found his tone and his perfect rig (including me) I smile and say to myself, "Don't bet on it."
Here's the deal: When you are a new player you don't even really know what you are listening for, and you don't know if what you are hearing comes from the amp or the mic or the player. So you try things (technique and hardware) and generally move toward a better understanding of how it all works.
It never ends, really. I'm at a phase now where I use zero pedals or effects, just a mic, cable, and a good tube amp. Just a few years ago I used a pedal board with a bunch of effects. I own several amps and they are all different but at various times each one is my "favorite."
But I can give you advice that I know works. No matter what level you are you need a really good 5-watt tube amp for practice. You will use it your entire playing career. If you aspire toward an amped Chicago blues sound you need the gear to work with.
Some people will insist that you need to have good command of your acoustic tone before getting any amp or mic. That is nonsense. It is perfectly fine to start working with an amp as soon as you feel ready. Getting good amped tone is not just a matter of switching on an amp; there are skills you need to develop that are way different than acoustic playing. You can work on amped and acoustic tone at the same time.
The biggest mistake you can make is to rush out and buy a bunch of gear that someone recommended. Don't do it. Go to jams and try different gear, if you can. Talk to players whose sound you like. Start small. Your signature sound will develop. You'll get there.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jan 11, 2014 6:35 AM
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Frank
3676 posts
Jan 11, 2014
8:12 AM
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Learning from the Masters is “THE WAY” to unlock “mandatory” ways to approach harmonica playing. Serious students do this in order to gain a more ((thorough understanding)) of phrasing ideals, technique execution, dynamic capabilities and a number of other important details that a Masters expertise has hidden within their playing repertoire. The Masters point the way to treasure trove of “MUCH ELIGHTENMENT” !!!
An identifiable style will begin to emerge as the student/player begins to trust themselves as a musician to use musical notes in a personal way as their heart, soul, spirit, mind and body moves him or her... and they trust their uniqueness and originality to say something pertinent, personal and powerful.
So, the lessons learnt from the Masters are for the purpose of giving [your “own” note choices] and improvisations the ability to sound as Professional as possible.
I ‘m a hobbyist, and many people take their chosen hobby seriously – I’m one of them, and have been for the past 17 years…This begins my 18th year, if my calculations are correct?
For the first 3 to 5 years I would blissfully practice and play for 5 or more hours a day…the next 5 years, a joyful 2 hours a day was a natural average, and for the last 7 years I'd have serious fun for 1 to 2 hours a day...
My experience is after around 8 years of studying the Masters along side the study of “improvisation” scales, chords, harmony etc… I began to really notice the development of a line of thinking music that I favored and a way of expressing that music as I felt moved to do.
And each year after that up until now- I have always kept a record of my emerging style through recordings and have listened to those closely to see where my phrasing is heading and how it’s developing. And you do start to hear a preference for how you approach making music, that approach will be refined and tweaked with each passing year.
I have recently began in the last couple of years to become comfortable with my style in a way that it feels right and I’m confident that I can build off of it and progress in a positive direction.
Though I am an advocate for taking the time necessary to gain the ability to perform a Masters work as passionately as they have…I am also a proponent that this discipline is needed not to sound the same as they do when you improvise, but as an “EDUCATION” for the purpose of having a {musical foundation} that is built on Rock and not on sand.
The foundation the Masters have laid out for the student is full of vitamins, minerals, and all kinds of healthy ingredients. To ignore their food is to be sustained on a self imposed diet of white sugar and white bread – causing any originality or uniqueness you may possess to be more then likely anemic.
Last Edited by Frank on Jan 11, 2014 8:29 AM
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harpwrench
750 posts
Jan 11, 2014
8:24 AM
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Talking sound, not style...You're actually born with your signature sound, sorta like your voice. The journey starts with maturing your playing to eliminate stuff that sounds bad. The gear's job is to put your sound out there without messing it up, and color it to taste depending on how you feel or what's appropriate for the music. It can be a tangled web and this is just my shoot from the hip opinion/reply. But the good players usually sound like themselves pretty much whatever they play through and can be recognized by ear as who they are just by listening to one note.
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Greg Heumann
2555 posts
Jan 11, 2014
8:29 AM
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My "journey" in a nutshell
- Started out knowing nothing, bought a lot of wrong gear
- Got frustrated and bought the right gear
- #2 helped a lot and got me my first gigs, but also demonstrated how important technique was
- My technique/tone has been improving since then, year after year after year. I'm happy with where I am now, but I don't expect that process to stop.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Jan 11, 2014 8:30 AM
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timeistight
1480 posts
Jan 11, 2014
9:21 AM
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"Talking sound, not style...You're actually born with your signature sound, sorta like your voice."
I agree with harpwrench: you don't choose your voice; you just work with it to improve it and present it in its best light.
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dougharps
511 posts
Jan 11, 2014
10:08 AM
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I think that if we are talking about "tone," I can agree that each of us has physical limitations that can define the limits of what "tone" we can develop. But this principle applies to sports and intellectual pursuits as well. There is a wide range of what each of us can achieve through developing our abilities within those physical limitations. And we can stretch the boundaries through continued effort and learning.
Diaphragmatic breathing, developing resonance, embouchure, mic cupping, etc. all affect tone, acoustic or amplified. We can build ability in these areas, and this will change our tone.
Each piece of gear has sonic boundaries on what can be achieved using it. We learn to adjust each combination of mic/amp/speaker to sound the way we most like for a given sound.
Then there are stylistic impacts. Our personal note choices interact with all of the above. If we are drawn to fast lines, that kind of playing will sound different than if we are drawn to using fewer longer notes played with nuances. Sparseness of playing with long spaces will make each note carry more impact. A sonic texture of fast lines will have a different impact. And the individual notes will sound different... even with the same musician playing the music.
And then there is the issue of the confidence with which we play our music. Do we play it like we mean it? Do we commit to the music we make, or are we tentative?
Last year I played with many good students and instructors at Harmonica Collective, and while there were commonalities, most players had their own sound, some more developed and distinct than others.
One player had an extraordinary hornlike sound that he attributed to using turbo harp covers. I think that much of the sound was how he played, not the covers. But his sound stood out in the crowd as unique.
I agree with above comments that support the idea that our personal "sound" is an ongoing evolving process of learning to be ourselves musically. It can develop from learning from the "Masters", it can come from musical exploration, it can come from just doing it a lot over time, and all of the above.
Eventually, if we continue our efforts, we develop and learn what we like to play and how we like it to sound. But it is not a static achievement, it is an ongoing evolution. When I listen to a 35 year old recording of my playing I hear commonalities in the sound then and now, but I recognize clearly that I sound much better now than then.
If I listen to certain players a lot, my performances tend to be shaped by what I have been listening to.
I have worked on playing harp quite a bit in recent years, and will continue the rest of my days. It is a great journey.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 11, 2014 1:20 PM
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MindTheGap
165 posts
Jan 11, 2014
10:37 AM
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Wow, lots of good opinions here, thanks you. Where to start? The advice as ever is very welcome, although I'm really interested in hearing your stories. e.g. Rick starting with effects, then going simple - that means something.
Greg - with hindsight, could you have bypassed step 1? Or is buying the 'wrong' gear a necessary part of the journey, coz it's a personal thing? It's been impressed on me from this forum that you can't 'buy a harp sound' like you can to an extent with a guitar. So did you have to go through that step?
Re 'your signature sound idea' - it's quite common for people to dislike the sound of their own spoken voice when they hear it recorded. The harp being what it is I can fully believe that your given sound is personal but can be shaped and developed as dougharps says, as a singer can alter their voice. When you heard you own playing, did you like it right away (or hate it) or is that the driver for change?
Frank, thanks for this. That's very interesting. Focusing for a moment on tone over style, when you were studying the masters were you pitching to recreate someone's sound(s) or was your sound an emergent thing too? Did you try to imitate a sound, found you couldn't but found your thing along the way? Or could you successfully duplicate the sounds from records using choice of technique/kit, and brewed your own from there?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 11, 2014 10:38 AM
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LSC
572 posts
Jan 11, 2014
11:05 AM
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Like most I started out trying to imitate the guys on the records but it was acoustically. Just learning songs and phrases.
One memorable and life changing moment when I was in my late teens was jamming with some guys from James Cotton's band in the dressing room of the old Kaleidoscope in Hollywood. Cotton walked in and listened for a bit then told me, "I can hear who you're listening to and that's fine but don't try and be them. Be you."
So from then on I would nick phrases and such as we all do but I never tried to imitate. I already had a love of big bands like Glenn Miller, and the Dorseys and rock and roll sax players. So trying to sound like a horn seeped into my playing. More the phrases then the actual sound as such. At one point I got a chance to play with a Trad jazz band, sort of Dixieland in the US, but they were into New Orleans funk and the like as well. The were all much older and vastly experienced guys. Except for soloing I literally tried to play as part of the horn section. All this happened before I ever played through an amp.
When I did decide to go the amp route it was a learning process as to what worked and what didn't. There were lots of mistakes, mostly wrong amps. For whatever reason there wasn't much available to learn from as to gear and that. Nothing like the info that is out there today. Besides I was gigging a lot and touring and wasn't exposed to much outside my own little world. And I always was compromising with amps that I could use for both harp and guitar.
When I did decide to really go for a dedicated harp amp I went through all sorts of tube PAs and combos. Each one another lesson. Learning what didn't work, what worked and what worked but I wanted better. I'm really good at flipping gear and was constantly trading either sideways or up.
When I decided to go for a purpose built boutique harp amp it was difficult because nothing was available to try. I discovered Sonny Jr and mostly from a piece that Greg wrote about his experience I contacted Gary, had a great conversation with him and bought a Super Cruncher. The SC was a total revelation. Later Gary offered me a deal I couldn't refuse and I sold the SC and bought an Avenger. My search for an amp that allowed me to hear what I wanted to hear was over.
In this journey I also discovered through trial and error which mic was best for me. I first had a 545 because it was free. Then a Shure 520D which was given to me. But then I discovered the vintage 520s which was another revelation. I actually got to try one against a JT30 one night and knew which one I wanted.
Having learned strictly by trial and error there are a lot of technique things I got back to front and haven't been able to change. Cupping technique for one. The idea of a smaller lighter mic with the vintage element I had been using was very attractive so I wheeled and dealed some surplus mics and bought one of Greg's wood bodied customs. Love it. Love it. Love it. And the smaller size really helped with getting the cupping better.
I'm now at a place where search for gear is over. I can get the sound I want but the effort to improve as a player hasn't stopped. There are a lot of guys who are better players than I am but I can hold my own with most because I play like myself. As a result I think I bring something unique to the party. I have an intensity but I'm very aware of when not to play. I'd rather play too little than too much so when I do come in the impact is greater. Just the other night Grammy nominated Birdleg came to me and said, "Thanks for knowing when not to play. Drives me crazy all these guys blowing all the time."
Long winded of me as usual but I'm reminded of a Walter Horton interview when he was asked about Little Walter. "I taught him everything he knows. But I don't want to sound like Little Walter. Let him sound like THIS Walter."
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LSC
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LSC
Last Edited by LSC on Jan 11, 2014 11:12 AM
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Frank
3677 posts
Jan 11, 2014
12:48 PM
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@ mindthegap
I don’t think of it as re-creating someone else’s sound…I am thinking about figuring out where my technical skills are lacking and how to strengthen them in order to sound as Professional as the Master I’m studying.
The Masters have what we as students want… and that is to sound awesome.
So any imitation is merely a means to an end…the end being, learning the required skills needed to produce professional sounding original music…
That said, once you have attained certain abilities and qualities to convincingly play a Masters songs, then - if you did your homework carefully and mindfully – what you learned from them will give your musical imagination the courage to be bold with your own improvisations and confident with how you play your instrument.
Seeing live Great Players goes a long way for gettin sound ingrained in the bones too.
Rick Estrin states in his teaching video - "I'm paraphrasing here"...that a lot of players have nothing worth hearing because they tried to develope a style void of direction from true Greats of the instrument :)
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The Centipide Saloon
Tip Your Waiter Please
Last Edited by Frank on Jan 11, 2014 12:57 PM
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MP
3046 posts
Jan 11, 2014
12:50 PM
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I once came extremely close to the perfect amplified tone. A Brush crystal in an Astatic Biscuit and a 2/12 Kalamazoo(both courtesy of mic builder/tube amp designer MojoKane.
The Brush crystal came out of an EV 920. A working crystal from an EV 920 is a seriously good find.
playing for 41 years could be seen as a positive contribution.
---------Affordable Reed Replacement
Marks Harmonica Tune-up
Click user name MP for contact info
Last Edited by MP on Jan 12, 2014 5:20 PM
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dougharps
512 posts
Jan 11, 2014
1:33 PM
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@MindTheGap
Greg said he bought a lot of the wrong gear starting out. So did I and so did many others. But you can learn from using the wrong gear. It is good to try out other rigs.
I like Rick's suggestion about trying stuff out. You can learn if you try, but you don't have to buy!
Adjusting different setups to sound the best you can teaches you about gear and about the sound you want. You can sound good through the wrong gear, but not as good...
I went through a time in which I was using effects a lot: mainly reverb, delay, chorus. I occasionally will use a slight touch of delay now, but usually play without effects. If I am playing chromatic in the PA I like a touch of reverb. Usually, if playing amplified with a tube amp, I just use the amp.
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Doug S.
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Rarko
87 posts
Jan 11, 2014
1:45 PM
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@MindTheGap
just listen these guys, they have a lot of experience. Search this forum, you will find a lot of htreads with tones of great informations about amp, mics, technique's...
Before I bought every harp model I have, my amp, mics... I read about it here. And I am very happy with my gear! so if you do the same, I dont think that you will be at Gregs step 1.
and one more thing, listen Rick and get that little practice amp, just play and practice (if you want to ask: which one? just search this forum, a lot of threads about it) :)
Last Edited by Rarko on Jan 11, 2014 2:01 PM
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SuperBee
1614 posts
Jan 11, 2014
2:00 PM
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Talking about gear, journey etc...
Yesterday I was playing on the street, big folk festival in the town...I'm playing with a guy with a strat, mainly Chicago kinda stuff...I've got a mouse amp and a sm58, a LW delay set to just give one repeat a fraction after the note...just enough to fatten it a little...
Anyway, after one conversation where a guy came up to tell me he liked the sound (he called it clean and simple), I thought about how it had come about that I was using the sm58..the first mic I ever bought for the harp, and which had not impressed me at all way back then.
I was unhappy generally with what I was getting from the amp (EDIT: the amp I was using way back...a 30 watt EL34 job, 12" combo) but as a complete newby to amplified playing, I had no idea, just trying things I'd read about. Somewhere I found out about old mics...guys in shops kept trying to sell me 520DX mics, but I was too tight to shell out the $ they asked. I bought an old EV 605 which had been fitted with a 99B86 element, and suddenly I was getting a sound more like I'd had in mind.
So here I was, 8 years later, playing through a solid state amp with that no good SM58 and getting compliments on the sound...and personally happy with it, which was most important...how come?
Because along the way I've learned a bit more about the sound I'm trying for, and how to produce it...and buying that EV mic was like the second step on that path..I didn't have the ultimate sound when I plugged it in, but it was more what I was looking for and now I was starting to learn to listen to the difference...
I kept hunting...I have a sm57...a couple JT30s...a small shell shure, a 520sl, numerous small amps, a 410, a Princeton reverb...all those things helped me understand a little more about what sound I liked, what I don't like...
Really, it's about listening I think, and learning to listen. It's easy to say and talk about, but for me it was hard to do without some reference point. Each piece of gear provides some nuance you can notice...something element you can say is attributable to the gear...after a while, you subtract what is due to gear and the remainder is you...then you're starting to head towards being able to make the sound you want despite the tools you have
Maybe...that's how it seems to me.
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JellyShakersFacebookPage
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Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 11, 2014 2:02 PM
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nacoran
7489 posts
Jan 11, 2014
4:49 PM
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Play, record, listen. Repeat. Actually, I got my sound with some help from my bass player. When I first got my amp I didn't know what gain was- (I mean, I knew it turned up the sensitivity of the input, but I didn't know how that was going to affect tone.) He showed me the basics, and I dialed it in from there, and it's still a work in progress.
I'll also record something in Audacity and then just add effects. That gives me an idea of what I want. If someone has a pedal, I ask to play through it. I got a good trumpet sound out of my guitar playing friend's guitar multi pedal, and something Cotton-ish (to the extent I can play Cotton-ish) from another one of his pedals.
For technique, you need to be able to get a good airtight cup. That's huge for amplified tone.
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Nate
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Barley Nectar
238 posts
Jan 11, 2014
4:51 PM
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You want the story. I was born 6/28/55...............LOL
I never really paid any attention to the great players. Norton who? My brother gave me a harp when I left for basic training. After that, carried one around for 20 yrs. Finally, I bought an amp at a friends suggestion, Fender Deluxe Reverb. An old buddy gave me a Shure 707A. WOW, this was a whole new world. Next another buddy gave me a dead 52 Gibsonette. After a year of study, I fixed it! This hooked me on amp repair and mic construction. I now have a bunch of stuff that was either home built or restored. Funny thing is, I like almost all of it. This stuff is a box of tools. I don't guess I have a favorite tone that I strive for. I just let the amp be itself and play to it's strong points. Pic the right tool for the job and play. I have been told many times that my sound is non-typicle. I feel this is due to my lack of emulation of the greats. I just play what is in my head. I feel that I have a signature style, not a signature sound.
I still like the BF Fender sound though. It is a Journey, and FUN...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Jan 11, 2014 4:53 PM
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Greg Heumann
2556 posts
Jan 11, 2014
5:51 PM
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"Greg - with hindsight, could you have bypassed step 1? Or is buying the 'wrong' gear a necessary part of the journey, coz it's a personal thing? It's been impressed on me from this forum that you can't 'buy a harp sound' like you can to an extent with a guitar. So did you have to go through that step?"
I could absolutely have bypassed step 1. Back then there were no internet harp forums so it was a lot harder to learn what worked. But today - if you're willing to take the advice of someone who honestly and truly knows where good tone comes from (hint - if they can't do out themselves, you should be suspect) - then take their advice and you can bypass the "lousy gear" syndrome. That focuses ALL of the advances on you!
As for "Play, record, listen. Repeat." - I agree insofar as developing your acoustic tone. I disagree when it comes to recording for good recorded tone vs good live tone. "In the studio, little amps sound big and big amps sound small" - i.e. What sounds good on stage and what sounds good in the studio are two different things for sure.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Jan 11, 2014 5:54 PM
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walterharp
1276 posts
Jan 11, 2014
7:40 PM
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nahh, can't skip the crap gear thing if you are driven to play amplified harp. so excited to get that electric sound but not quite sure you will really pick up harp.. why drop $500 plus on gear? Cheap mic and amp.. sounds awesome but then you realize so much more :-)
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Kingley
3378 posts
Jan 12, 2014
1:31 AM
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I don't think I have a "signature" sound. I do however sound like me. The road I took? I spent some money on some Solid State amps before I knew that generally speaking valve amps were better for harmonica. I then tried and owned loads of amps and mics. I realised after a while that I sounded more or less the same through them all. It was then that I made the connection that my acoustic tone and technique was the biggest single factor in getting a good sound. I also learnt about how different cupping techniques affect the sound. These days I don't worry about gear a lot and concentrate more on what I'm playing and how I'm playing it. As a result of that I'm happy to play through a vocal mic into a PA, a valve amp or a Lone Wolf pedal direct into the PA. I sound pretty much the same playing through any of those. The amp or pedal option gives me some more distortion/overdrive and a slightly deeper tonal colour.
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Frank
3684 posts
Jan 12, 2014
8:49 AM
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Here is an improve I did a couple days ago...I used Little Walters "mean old world" BT that Sho Blues made...
So you can also use the Bt for practicing singing the song with too.
I over play and am to busy in spots, the song isn't cohesive and I don't build the solos correctly...
So I'll use that practice session to take notes and try to make it more logically appealing with better phrasing ideals next time, damn and I forgot to smile :)
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Barley Nectar
240 posts
Jan 12, 2014
9:38 AM
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Ya, I overplay when alone also. No one to pi$$ off so who cares. I like the slow shake you use in this, Cool...BN
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Rick Davis
2849 posts
Jan 12, 2014
11:22 AM
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MindTheGap, I didn't start out using pedals and effects. When I first started imn 1973 (and for the next several years) I played only acoustically. When I played with bands I stepped up to a vocal mic on a stand.
I got a lot more interested in amped tone when I moved to Michigan in 1979. I bought an Ampeg B15-N full stack, and that was the first of many tube amps. I didn't start using any pedals at all until around 2005.
At various times I tried and owned lots of FX pedals but started tapering off them a few years ago, and for the last year I have been pedal free, not even delay.
I'm not sure I'd call my sound "Signature" because that might imply a level of skill I do not have. Nic Clark has a signature sound. So does Ronnie Shellist. I think when people hear me play they recognize the style and tone and they know it is me. But nothing like my friends Nic and Ronnie.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jan 12, 2014 11:23 AM
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5F6H
1732 posts
Jan 12, 2014
11:42 AM
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When I started playing, I wanted the amp (whether it be tube/SS/PA whatever) to give me something I was missing...as I got better & more used to hearing myself, the more I just wanted the amp to make what I was doing loud enough, just with a little warmth & envelope.
Some amps have a very distinctive tone, a lot don't though & don't have to dictate the way a player sounds....that inevitably comes from you whether you aim for it, or whether it's a happy accident. Trying to copy players you like can be a very useful learning tool, people may identify some of your influences, but your playing should develop a "quality/style/voice..." and when it sounds good in its own right, it will be less relevant than whether you sound just like so&so, or not.
Whatever gets the job done & makes you happy when you play is "right" (you'll play better when you like what you're hearing)...but that may develop, change & grow as you do?
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
Last Edited by 5F6H on Jan 12, 2014 11:43 AM
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6SN7
408 posts
Jan 12, 2014
2:46 PM
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Whatevah its worth….I saw the great Ronnie Earl the other night. Just awesome. He used a Strat plugged directly into 2 super reverbs. That's it, no pedals.
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