Martin
572 posts
Dec 30, 2013
9:15 AM
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If any of you have had success in finding an amplifier in the lower price range it would be interesting to know about.
I´m talking about an amplifier that only serves as amplification: I´m using a pedal for the sound and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, but I need an extra power source. 30 W or so.
A few Laneys and such have passed me buy (I´ve been slow in my bidding) for really very little money (less than $100) -- but I´m not sure if they hold up even to such a modest demand?
cheers,
Martin
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Frank
3591 posts
Dec 30, 2013
9:24 AM
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The Centipide Saloon
Tip Your Waiter Please
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Martin
573 posts
Dec 30, 2013
11:32 AM
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Thanks Frank, but the day I start building my own amplifier is the same day I apply for membership in the boy scouts. And I ain´t getting any younger.
No, it will have to be something where you just plug in. I´m prepared to pay a little bit extra for that pleasure.
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Rick Davis
2805 posts
Dec 30, 2013
12:30 PM
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EH 44 Magnum
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Greg Heumann
2534 posts
Dec 30, 2013
1:19 PM
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Martin, is this for your own entertainment? Performing on stage with your own group? Performing at a jam?
What kind of sound are you creating with your pedal? Are you playing clean acoustic? Electronic? Chicago blues?
Your answer definitely impacts the advice I would offer.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Dec 30, 2013 1:22 PM
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dougharps
501 posts
Dec 30, 2013
2:14 PM
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@Rick Davis
I sat in for a few songs with Kilborn Alley again yesterday evening at their birthday party show for their blues/soul mentor Abraham Johnson.
I used my EH 44 Magnum Class D amp with my Lil' Buddy speaker in a small Fender amp cab originally holding a 6" or 8" speaker, with my Shure 585AV mic. I bought the empty cab cheap from a repair guy after someone's little Fender solid state amp had died. I used my own baffle board. This is my small, light weight, and powerful "sit-in" amp rig.
I had a ball, and the sound filled the small to medium sized room. I was heard over 2 guitars using a 60 Watt Peavey amp and a Fender Deluxe, over electric bass, and a small drum kit. I didn't mic the speaker.
It sounds pretty decent, though for a gig I would bring one of my tube amps to get that sound. It is lightweight, small (maybe 12" square), and easily carried in one hand. Kilborn Alley and Abraham Johnson seem to like it just fine! I have an open invitation to sit in with Kilborn any time, except at festivals that don't allow guests to perform.
@Martin
The issues with this approach are that you have you have to put the Lil' Buddy speaker in a cab and install a jack. You also need to buy a speaker cable for connecting the EH 44 Magnum to the speaker.
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Doug S.
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Rick Davis
2808 posts
Dec 30, 2013
2:35 PM
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Doug, I would really really like to hear that... got video?
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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dougharps
502 posts
Dec 30, 2013
3:21 PM
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If anyone shot video or recorded audio, and I find out about it, I will post.
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Doug S.
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nacoran
7446 posts
Dec 30, 2013
3:30 PM
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I think we harp players are trained that we can't play something before we buy it (slobber slobber), but with amps, that's not always the case. Go to a music store or a pawn shop and play through some amps and get an idea of what they sound like and if they are in working order. Do your window shopping there, and then start looking for what you want online (or at pawn shops or second hand places). You can get good deals on ebay, and if you are buying 'cheap' because you figure it's cheap enough to take a chance on it, that's different than buying cheap because that's what you can afford, if that makes any sense. If it's 'what you can afford', unless you know how to do maintenance, it may be cheaper to buy local where you can kick the tires first.
You know what we really need is a database of players playing through different amps. Of course, without standardizing how they are recorded you might not get a good idea of what the room actually sounded like. I actually like my little Park amp. It's not high end, and often the sound doesn't sound good unless I fiddle with the knobs a lot, but I eventually do get it tuned in.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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Martin
574 posts
Dec 30, 2013
4:45 PM
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@Rick Davis & dougharps: This may be a wonderful gadget but, as dougharps indicates, won´t I just push my volume problem a bit ahead of me: I will still need amplification. Or? (See below.)
@Greg Heumann. It is basically for getting my sound level up, in a jam/rehearsal context. The PA I play through in that room is simply inadequate. Crap. Chinese junk w/ almost no bottom at all.
I´m maxing out on volume and still have trouble getting heard -- and what comes through is way too harsh.
I have an RP 150 and it gives me some usable sounds, ranging from Chicago to pretty clean. (Although I´m trying to learn how to improve the box in the clean/warm department.)
The guys I´m playing with are moving around a bit musically, so it´s anything between "How deep is the ocean" (and that´s one tune that does NOT need the "Chicago sound" ...) to "Rainy night in Georgia" to straight ahead blues.
I have two, sometimes three (!) guitars to compete with, as well as drums and bass.
The thing is that with a good PA I´ve found that some of Richard Hunter´s RP patches are quite sufficient for my needs; and I´m not too interested in paying good money for an amplifier to store in a rehearsal room for these occasional jams (I don´t drive, have no car, not even a license -- could be bordering on the inconcieveable for some of you Transatlantics! -- so dragging it back and forth is no option), therefore the cheapo requirement.
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Martin
575 posts
Dec 30, 2013
4:51 PM
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@nacoran: What I´m looking at basically is a Swedish equivalent to E-bay where you can -- if you´re quick enough -- get things at fabulously good prices.
There´s an element of chance there, I know, that´s why I´m sort of trying to find my way around ...
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dougharps
503 posts
Dec 30, 2013
9:25 PM
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@Martin
I am not sure I understand what you are saying about "...won´t I just push my volume problem a bit ahead of me: I will still need amplification."
The EH 44 Magnum is a 44 watt Class D solid state amp. It may look like a pedal, but it is a LOUD amp! But you have to hook it up to a speaker. You could easily carry this amp on a bus or train, or walk with it. The weight is in the 10" speaker; the 44 Magnum amp is light and could fit in your coat pocket including the power supply. I have played it through my larger and heavier Cannabis Rex 12" speaker cab with an analog delay, and it sounds really good, maybe even better than the Lil' Buddy. But that is a lot more to haul to sit in.
A similar solution might be this little amp, though I have not played through one, so I can't vouch for it being good with harp:
ZT Lunchbox amp
But I am not trying to sell either of these amps as your solution. The advice given by nacoran is good advice. You could take your RP and try it out with various amps at a shop to see what seems to be what you want, then shop for a bargain.
It is always risky to buy before you try.
I wish you luck in your search.
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Doug S.
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Martin
576 posts
Dec 31, 2013
4:45 AM
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@dougharps: So this little thing can power a speaker?
Now you´ve got me really interested, esp. since I already own a couple of (decent) speakers that´s just sitting here and taking up space.
I thought it was "just another pedal". Will try to see if it´s found its way to Sweden and a shop here for testing.
The video/sound samples Rick called for would be really interesting.
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Frank
3599 posts
Dec 31, 2013
5:57 AM
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Martin
577 posts
Dec 31, 2013
6:31 AM
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Thanks a lot Frank. My interest in this thing increases even more.
The things they can do these days, taking photographs with telephones and what have you ...
What I don´t understand, however, is what he says about "clean" watts? But I´ll pass that along to my tech guy -- or even (gasp!) try to look it up myself.
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dougharps
505 posts
Dec 31, 2013
9:43 AM
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The sound is pretty clean up to the 12 o'clock setting, then it gradually distorts. It is a pretty smooth distortion. Even clean, the sound is colored by your specific speaker. For example, the Lil' Buddy is darker than the Cannabis Rex. If I play single note chromatic harmonica lines I use the high end boost switch so it cuts. For blues diatonic or chromatic harp chords or octaves, I usually leave it darker. If I use my 585AV mic I can usually turn up to at least 2 o'clock before needing to watch for feedback. The mic you choose to use with any amp will affect the feedback threshold and tone.
I have my little 10" speaker set up to be about 30 degrees off of horizontal, so it disperses the sound off the club ceiling. I place it about 10 feet away to my side. I don't want to beam it at any table up front as it would be really loud if you were right in front of it. You can hear it all over the stage and club.
When I set it up the first time, the members of Kilborn Alley thought it was funny that I would use such a small amp to try to sit in with them. Now they appreciate it. I have had audience members come up afterward and take a picture of the amp.
The EH 44 Magnum can be used only with 8 or 16 ohm speakers, NOT with 4 ohm. You would need a speaker (or combination of speakers) able to handle at least 50 watts in my opinion.
I was given a basic digital audio recorder for Christmas, so if I get it figured out to avoid the recorder from clipping, I will post a sound sample with harp at different settings.
Edited for spelling errors...
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 31, 2013 9:48 AM
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HawkeyeKane
2233 posts
Dec 31, 2013
9:49 AM
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This year, in addition to all the other projects i have lined up for myself, I'm planning to dink around with a few inexpensive keyboard amps to see what sounds good with my Zoo's line out. Behringer and Peavey both have a couple models that have caught my eye. It seems pretty logical to me since they are essentially a compact PA with plenty of clean output wattage. Get the harp tone from the Zoo's output and boost it to an appreciable level onstage, while still sending a line out signal to the PA board.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Dec 31, 2013 9:54 AM
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Frank
3606 posts
Dec 31, 2013
6:36 PM
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Doug, why else would a man of your fine character "edit" for any reason other than spelling errors? :)
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dougharps
506 posts
Dec 31, 2013
11:06 PM
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Frank, are you saying I'm a character???!!!!
OK... I'll own that. 'Course playing harp almost guarantees you are a character.
Happy New Year, everyone!
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Doug S.
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Kingley
3352 posts
Dec 31, 2013
11:24 PM
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Martin- You may not need a new amp. If you can't be heard when in the PA then some questions come to mind.
What type of mic are you using?
Is your mic high or low impedance?
Have you got the RP150 cranked up on the volume?
Is feedback a problem?
Have you tried using a low impedance mic into the PA without any pedal?
If so do you still have problems hearing or being heard?
Is your mic cupping technique correct?
If you can hear when using a vocal mic direct into the PA the the problem is either an impedance mismatch or your settings on the pedal are too extreme to allow you to reach the required volume.
For what it's worth, I play a Lone Wolf Harp Attack pedal into different PA systems a lot using either a bullet mic or a Shure 545. Both mics are set for high impedance and I never have any problems with hearing myself or with feedback. I tried an RP unit years ago and found it to be useless and incapable of getting a good sound at volume without huge feedback issues. The Harp Attack is without a doubt one of the best gear investments I have ever made in all my years of playing harmonica.
If your only doing those jams occasionally, then why not just play using a mic direct into the PA and cup it like James Cotton. I play a lot of jams like that and it's very easy to cut through the band. OK so you don't get an "amped" sound, but it's easy enough to get a good sound playing that way. If I want or need the "amped" sound for a jam then I just use the Harp Attack.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jan 01, 2014 1:22 AM
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Martin
578 posts
Jan 01, 2014
5:58 AM
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@Kingley:
The mic is a vintage Beyer. Maybe, just maybe, it´s been getting a little bit weaker over time, and I´m contemplating a SM57 or 58 as an alternative.
Impedance? For the life of me I can never remember that.
The RP is maxed.
Feedback is no bigger issue.
No, have not tried a low impedance mic -- if this Beyerdynamic isn´t low impedance? -- but I´ve tried going direct, and it sounds horrible, even with an extra EQ pedal. And not particularly loud.
Perhaps one is never the best judge of one´s various techniques, but I think I´ve got the cupping issue under control. (I´ve been playing for quite a while, and can occasionally display some signs of proficiency -- or so I´m told, anyway. Sound samples would have been great, I admit, and I´ll try to provide some in the future.)
The thing is that the PA is a really hopeless thing, the second worst such entity I´ve ever been in contact with, and quite simply I must pass it by.
The Harp Attack has been under consideration for its general value but I doubt that it would help me here.
Also, I don´t mind at all a clean, warm direct PA sound. In fact I rather like it. But what you get here is just a harsh thinness. Exactly what you pay for, as I understand it, and this PA was extremely cheap, and sound horrible even for vocals.
Thanks for the input.
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Kingley
3354 posts
Jan 01, 2014
6:08 AM
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Martin - The Beyer is most likely low impedance. I suspect you're using an XLR to Jack lead to connect it? If so then you have an impedance mismatch. What your pedal wants to see is a high impedance load. You need to either use a high impedance mic or use an low to high impedance converter with the Beyer.
When you use the Beyer direct into a PA use an XLR to XLR lead that will give you a low impedance connection which is what most PA systems will want to see. That should boost your volume a lot and give you far better tonal response.
When you connect the RP150 to the PA try doing it like this: Beyer with XLR to XLR lead into an impedance converter - into the RP150 with a Jack to Jack patch lead into a DI box - then XLR to XLR cable to the PA, That is the correct way to set things up and for all the impedances to match correctly. Doing that you should find that it makes a huge difference.
Most PA systems even crappy ones can be made to sound half decent. You just need to make sure that all the mic leads going into it are XLR to XLR low impedance cables. If any of the mics going into it are using XLR to Jack leads then the impedance is wrong and all the mics will sound like crap.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jan 01, 2014 6:13 AM
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Martin
579 posts
Jan 01, 2014
7:33 AM
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Thanks a lot, Kingley. I will check this out.
The mic (Beyer M 8: http://www.radiomuseum.org/images/radio/beyerdynamic/m80_702234.jpg)
has a really weird contraption at the end of its (short) cable and I can choose XLR or standard ... (whatever that´s called, Canon? We say "tele" here in Sweden).
I recall another post when a "DI box" was mentioned as a possible improvement for my setup and I have just simply forgotten about it, which is bordering on the inexcusable when people are helping you out.
But this needs the attention of my chief technician and I will send your post to him. Even on an ordinary day I have a hard time understanding these things, and with today´s hangover ...
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Kingley
3355 posts
Jan 01, 2014
7:43 AM
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Your more than welcome Martin. Hopefully your technician will understand my post and be able to sort you out.
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Frank
3609 posts
Jan 01, 2014
8:00 AM
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Doug, So you're saying that if a moderator goes back through your original post, NSA STYLE- before you ahhhhh... "edited it"... that they will most likely uncover some unsettling bizarre backroom behavior that would certainly be the bombshell news story of 2014 - please tell Doug - seriously, no games...WHAT DID YOU EDIT OUT OF YOUR 505TH post? Saying it was "only spelling errors" is like saying you only had 2 beers when the cops pulled you over last night :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jan 01, 2014 8:02 AM
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dougharps
507 posts
Jan 01, 2014
8:17 AM
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@Martin
Kingley's suggestions seem right on target. If your mic is low-z you need an inline impedance converter to go to the RP. Most PA systems could accept the signal from the line coming out of the RP, but if the problems persist after you use the converter see if someone has a DI you could try, and use it to go to the XLR input. Try a basic patch on the RP first, maybe just a touch of delay or reverb. You shouldn't need an amp unless the PA is really messed up, and if vocals are working OK, it is either something in your signal chain or the input you are using. It does sound like an impedance mismatch. I would suggest simplifying and do what Kingley suggested, try the mic straight to the PA first, and see if that helps.
Problem solving is one step at a time.
@Frank
I did correct for spelling. OCD??? However, I added, subtracted, and shifted content, too. I did not cut any content that was reflected in your Onion article... Really!
I think it is good for you to start the year with an inquiring mind.
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Doug S.
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Frank
3611 posts
Jan 01, 2014
8:25 AM
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Thanks for clearing that up Doug, and I agree - in this situation... Martin should measure twice and cut once and just before you're about to actually cut, make positively sure that you measured correctly again, just in case you messed up the first time :)
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Rick Davis
2814 posts
Jan 01, 2014
8:50 AM
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Martin, if you leave a speaker cab at your rehearsal space you can carry the little 44 Mag amp/pedal and your RP150 effects pedal. You would have a very nice little harp rig, one loud enough to gig with.
The speaker cab is a regular Epiphone Valve Jr cab, with the stock 12-inch speaker. They are no longer sold new but you can find them on the used market for very little money, and they sound great for blues harp.
Here a cab on eBay.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jan 01, 2014 9:00 AM
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Martin
580 posts
Jan 01, 2014
9:24 AM
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Thank you guys, appreciate the input.
@dougharps: As a hopeless idiot I´m fortunate that I can count two very competent tech guys among my pals -- and one of them, a microphone specialist, has even written in a Swedish gear head journal about DI boxes, so I will take that first part of the problem to him.
@Rick Davis: When my head has cleared up from the New Years Eve party I will start scouring the music stores here in Gothenburg for an opportunity to test that little bugger.
Could be just the ticket for me and a more long term solution to my persistent sound problems.
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