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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Do Diatonic Players Need "Relative Minor"??
Do Diatonic Players Need "Relative Minor"??
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harpdude61
1916 posts
Dec 09, 2013
12:59 PM
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To me, the "term" the relative minor is not needed for most diatonic players at any level. It just adds confusion, especially for new players. I really don't know why you need it.
Learning the various modes that relate easiest to each position is tough enough. Sure, any musical knowledge is great, but for someone trying to learn the circle of 5ths, it's just another letter to learn that takes time away from more valuable lessons.
Sure you can play any scale in any position. For simplicity I teach players how to find the position on the circle of 5ths chart. Then teach where the minor notes are in the scale.
The relative minor is great for piano players that play one chromatic instrument and can see the relation. The relative minor seems of less value to a diatonic position player that switches harps.
I play 5 positions, know the name of the scale, and where the flat notes are. Some positions, I can play 2 or 3 or 4 scales since I OB/OD. Just don't see the need to know the relative minor.
If you know the band key, what scale/mode you want, and the position you want to play in...what is the point of knowing the relative minor?
If the band is in a A minor, I might choose to use a C harp in 4th position. Okay, thats the relative minor, but it only relates with 4th position. I'm just as much or more likely to use 2nd, 3rd, or 5th. See my point?
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Dec 11, 2013 4:39 PM
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tmf714
2235 posts
Dec 09, 2013
1:23 PM
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timeistight
1442 posts
Dec 09, 2013
1:49 PM
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2nd position is the relative minor to 11th position major; 3rd position is the relative minor to 12th position major; 5th position is the relative minor to 2nd position major. I find this information useful in all sorts of ways.
To each his own. If you don't find the relative minor concept useful, then leave it alone. However, I don't think blanket statements about it's usefulness to others.
To quote the Iceman, "you don't need this theory knowledge to play, but it certainly will help you in the long run be a better musician."
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The Iceman
1317 posts
Dec 09, 2013
2:38 PM
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Relative minor can also be considered Aolean Mode.
There are many songs written in this particular mode - St. James Infirmary and Summertime are two that come to mind.
It's also called 4th position on harmonica.
So, it can be very useful to harmonica players in their quest to play more than just regular blues changes.
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The Iceman
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Jim Rumbaugh
943 posts
Dec 09, 2013
3:05 PM
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Perhaps if we re-wrote your topic:
Do Diatonic Players Need "to know 4th position"
I would say the answer is yes.
knowing when to use 4th position is about knowing relative minors.
I say it's just as simple/confusing as learning cross harp.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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nacoran
7405 posts
Dec 09, 2013
3:26 PM
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I think the relative minor is very useful conceptually. You are right that it adds something else to remember and that it's more useful for piano players. That said, I think it's important for everyone to be at least familiar with the piano keyboard layout, even if they have to stop and count it out. There is a reason music theory is usually taught on the piano. (If I wasn't in a hurry earlier I probably should have counted out the major and minor half and whole step patterns in my post on the other thread.)
It may depend on what sort of learner you are, but I find if I can visually picture something I can commit it to memory much more quickly than strings of flats and sharps. It is really hard to visualize things on the harp since our notes aren't sequential all the way up the harp like they are on the piano (we have gaps).
If you memorize the piano layout (really, if you just learn to recognize where the C is so you can count the rest) then, as long as you know that C major is all white keys and A minor is all white keys, you can figure out all the other major and minor keys, but I think more importantly, it shows you that all the modes are just repeating patterns, templates that you can drop anywhere on the keyboard and count it out. Once you've got the concept you can probably put the details aside until a little later in music theory, but when I've told people major and minor keys were just a pattern on the chromatic scale they've usually looked at me blankly. When they've counted out a couple examples on a keyboard, suddenly there is an ah-ha moment.
It's also very useful for figuring out the sharps and flats in a key, which is a great shortcut for explaining things to guitar players.
That said, maybe a better Circle of Fifths for harp players would list the scales more important to us. Is there a position chart laid out like a Circle of Fifths? Even one with 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th would be pretty useful. I could draw one by hand, but doing it on a computer with the art software I have would be a pain.
In the future, I'll try to use 3rd or 5th in my examples. (I do have a Circle of Fifths that is stripped down without the key signatures in it. I should have posted that. It is less of an information overload.)
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Nate
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nacoran
7406 posts
Dec 09, 2013
3:33 PM
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(I just tried to make one, and mine looks terrible! I'm lousy at computer drawing, especially when you need straight lines!)
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Nate
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tmf714
2238 posts
Dec 09, 2013
3:43 PM
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harpdude61
1917 posts
Dec 09, 2013
3:44 PM
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Thank you Iceman! Exactly my point. If you are going to put the 4th position on the chart why not put what relation positions 2 thru 12 are. It is just another mode. To be honest I see less 4th position play posted by players on this forum than I do 1st, 2nd,3rd, 5th, and 12th!
I agree. 4th position should be learned and I know what songs it's good for
I use 4th and teach 4th, but I would rather the student understand what the steps and 1/2 steps of the scale are, rather than "this is this scale, just starting on a hole that's like this scale". Then if they advance to the level of playing something besides Aolean mode in 4th position, it is much easier to grasp.
I guess it is a shortcut/cheating in a way for learning 4th position, but is the student really getting where the flatted notes are.
It could go on forever...why not say "if you can put 6 ob in, then this is related to that.
I play a lot of 3rd position, but I just have never related it to my 12th position play in any way.
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nacoran
7407 posts
Dec 09, 2013
5:54 PM
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Tmf714, I keep thinking if this wasn't the age of the iPhone app I'd market something like that out of one of those old videogame code wheels. You'd have a wheel for 'key the song was in' and 'harp' and it would tell you what position you were playing in.
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Nate
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STME58
605 posts
Dec 09, 2013
6:15 PM
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@ nacroran
I'll bet something like this flight computer could be modified to your purpose. If you are going to use a tube amp and a vintage mic, you need to be using a circular slide rule, not a phone app!
Last Edited by STME58 on Dec 09, 2013 6:19 PM
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BigBlindRay
206 posts
Dec 09, 2013
6:46 PM
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Hi MBHers
Relative minor is important to learn as you can use the relative minor over a major key and vice versa - opens up different melodic ideas.
But I also think that for anyone playing a musical instrument who wants to be..say...a musician... That learning the language of music might just be an important thing.
In regards to the whole circle of 5th, 4ths chart. Writing all different charts and keeping them on you or giving them to students I feel is an absolutely redundant exercise. You should just study scale and chord theory.
if you do that - you have no need to use a chart - you commit everything to memory. And its not that hard to do.
Remember. A short cut is the longest distance between two points.
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1847
1376 posts
Dec 09, 2013
7:17 PM
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Relative minor is important to learn as you can use the relative minor over a major key and vice versa -
?????????????????
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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BigBlindRay
207 posts
Dec 09, 2013
7:32 PM
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Hey 1847
You can use A relative minor over C Major. As it is the relative minor - it uses the same notes as C Major.
Or you can use C Major over A relative minor for the above same reasons.
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harpdude61
1919 posts
Dec 09, 2013
7:35 PM
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Look guys, I agree with Ray that learning the musical language is important.
All I'm saying is, you have a new harmonica student, that has ZERO music experience, trying to grasp the idea of cross harp, and you lay this relative minor stuff on him. He thinks it is something he must understand to be able to play harmonica, when all he really wants to do is pick up the correct harp for 2nd position blues.
If you have a student that totally grasps the concepts of 1st,2nd, and 3rd position, plays pretty good, and knows the difference between a 1/2 step/whole step, and understands why various scales sound different, then fine...throw it at him. It is too advanced for someone just trying to understand positions.
I'm betting most of you guys that chimed in probably play other instruments and had some formal musical training. We tend to let ourselves think that since we know it, others must know it to if they want to be successful.
My guess is MANY of the legends of blues harmonica, thought that a relative minor was their kid sister. Really, how many of the old guys played beyond 1st, 2nd, or 3rd position?
IMHO, the whole circle of 5ths chart is confusing to a musical beginner. Especially middle-aged guys that just want to learn to jam. I don't use it for newbies. I teach that 2nd position is 3 1/2 steps up from the band key and that 3rd position is a full step down from the band key. They get along fine without out. When they are ready, I will unveil the circle.
Many people choose to play harmonica because they have no music knowledge and want instant gratification. They want to jam and have fun as quickly as possible.
I say teach them what they need to get rolling in the blues. You will know when it is time grasshopper.
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1847
1377 posts
Dec 09, 2013
8:07 PM
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well thanks for clarifying that.
i thought you meant something else entirely
my mistake.
My guess is MANY of the legends of blues harmonica, thought that a relative minor was their kid sister.
that was the best retort ever. i needed a laugh thank you.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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nacoran
7408 posts
Dec 09, 2013
8:47 PM
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Harpdude61, that's one of the weaknesses of the forum format- people are at different levels, so it's hard sometimes to tailor your advice to any specific person unless they tell you exactly were they are at, and people come at it from so many different starting backgrounds.
For what it's worth, Circle of Fifths and relative minors are something I learned about in Music Theory 101 (after taking 'Intro to Music Theory', so really it could have been 102, second semester stuff, along with the different modes and all that. That said, it completely baffled me at the time. One of the things I've learned about things that baffle me is that the sooner I'm exposed to them, even if I don't get them at the time, the easier time I have with them in the long run... assuming of course, that I don't give up in frustration (Curse you CAD drawing!).
That's why I like getting the Circle of Fifths and at least the idea of scales as patterns of notes within the chromatic scale out there, (major and relative minor are the easiest way I know how to explain that). I do try to qualify it though- being able to think of it as a system is useful, even if you don't know the details of that system. If you don't know what an alphabet is and I tell you 'it's a system of symbols that represent sounds and you use them to represent words' you may not be ready to take on the whole alphabet, but I think, if a couple days later (or weeks, or months or years) when I show you a letter you'll have a better framework for putting that in context.
I was in a hurry this morning when I posted the Circle from Wikipedia. It's pretty close to the one I learned on, but maybe it wasn't as overwhelming to me because I had a background reading sheet music, so seeing those key signatures (which aren't necessary for understanding the beginning concept) wasn't to overwhelming for me, but I could see how it could be, and on other occasions I have posted a version where I deleted that part specifically because of that.
It would be interesting to hear some of the beginners weighing in with what they think, and what, if any, other musical background they have. When we share posts like these we are obviously trying to help, and if we aren't, we aren't accomplishing what we set out to do. I know I was very frustrated in band lessons as a kid because the teacher wouldn't let me play ahead in the workbook. He'd actually yell at me if I played something new 'too well'. I ended up quitting band. When I was working on the theory end of it, I wanted the teacher to go over it again and again, and to explain why it worked, because when I could see why something worked I was much more likely to remember it.
But there are all types of learners... hands on, book, lecture, etc. etc.
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Nate
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harpdude61
1920 posts
Dec 09, 2013
9:03 PM
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Good post nac....
I agree that knowledge is valuable, but blues harmonica is so much different than what you need to know to be in an orchestra or large band. Let me put it this way....you wanna play like Howard Levy? cram down that theory....you wanna play like Sonny Terry? learn enough to get going and jam your ass off!..
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Gnarly
813 posts
Dec 09, 2013
9:55 PM
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If it sounds good, it is good. However;
Is ignorance of the law a defense?
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STME58
606 posts
Dec 09, 2013
11:04 PM
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", but blues harmonica is so much different than what you need to know to be in an orchestra or large band."
I would contend that to play in a large band or orchestra you don't need much theory, just play the notes written for you on the page. If you are going to improvise, you need to understand music. Music theory as in the circle of fifths, modes, chord structure etc. is just a way to organize this info. It really is a short cut (but not much of one). You can learn the hard way, by trial and error like so many of the great players have done, or you can take a slight short cut and use some of the methods developed over the centuries by studying what works. Either way, it takes a tremendous amount of effort and dedication to get to the point of making great music. One path is not better than another. Each person needs to find a path that works for them. You can get bogged down in either the theory or the empirical trial path and a dose of the other may get you past the sticking point.
A suggestion I got from and instructor I am currently working under is to spend time musically doing what you enjoy but make sure to save at least 5-10 minutes of time to work on something you are having difficulty with.
I took theory years ago but did not use it much playing in bands, orchestra's and brass quintets. Now that I am trying out blues harmonica and improvising, I am finding that theory I learned starting to make sense and become usable.
Last Edited by STME58 on Dec 09, 2013 11:08 PM
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MindTheGap
90 posts
Dec 10, 2013
1:13 AM
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nacoran - A beginner's view...
I agree with a lot of the sentiments here, although they appear conflicting. For a beginner wanting to jam, learning the circle-of-fifths isn't the most important thing to begin with. But re nacoran's point: knowing that the circle exists as a system that all musicians use, and you might use it to explain what is going on, and use more bits of it as you progress seems like a good idea too.
I do know some theory, so I'm in a position to know what parts of theory were most useful to begin with. For me it was working out how the scale degrees map to the holes in whatever position you are playing, and what the scale degrees mean musically. If I hard started with no theory, that's the thing I would have wanted to learn. Chord tones, leading notes that kind of thing.
Now I've started venturing into other positions and for that definitely knowing the circle is useful. In particular relative minors. I have been told that this isn't your typical blues harp though.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 10, 2013 1:52 AM
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hannes
8 posts
Dec 10, 2013
1:29 AM
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This chart gives you useful information about majors and relative minors as applied to position playing that you can immediately apply, without "theory overload".
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MindTheGap
91 posts
Dec 10, 2013
1:44 AM
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hannes - I came across arzajac's charts here too, and I really like them. The response I got from here when I said how useful it was to have 5th position as a minor key having learnt 2nd position, was that 'you don't really need it for blues'. I have my own view about that, but I do accept there is an orthodoxy about position playing, and there are valid reasons for that.
One of the questions in this thread is whether beginners should be taught relative minors, and I have to agree that out of all the things you need to learn being with, that's probably not it! Lesson two maybe.
If we were playing jazz, that would be a different story.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 10, 2013 1:51 AM
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harpdude61
1921 posts
Dec 10, 2013
2:56 AM
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gnarly...a defense against what?
Sure theory is great..not saying it's not. Just saying why bombard a newbie with relative minors when he is still struggling with what harp to use for 2nd or 3rd position?
The need to understand relative minor seems more important for a totally chromatic instrument like a trumpet or piano. We switch harps guys!
I'm sure if we want to learn to play the same melody in 12 positions on a single harp it is useful.
Like I say, even the greats of recent history rarely went beyond 1,2,3 positions. Many of them could not tell you what the note is when they wail on the 5 draw in 2nd position, much less the relative minor!
Think Cotton has a Circle of 5ths chart with the relative minors taped to his harp case?
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hannes
9 posts
Dec 10, 2013
2:59 AM
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MindTheGap - you are certainly right. Having already played various kinds of music before I recently started learning the blues I was familiar with 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th position before even learning 2nd. But from a blues point of view I definitely agree with you that the relative minor is not necessary at the beginning. But I don't agree with the opening statement of this thread that it is not necessary "for most diatonic players at any level".
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arzajac
1218 posts
Dec 10, 2013
3:58 AM
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It is what it is - it's neither good nor bad. If it doesn't suit what you teach or how you teach, then don't use it.
That being said, the usefulness of the relationship between relative major and relative minor is just not there when you start off with the blues scale. It's obvious when you deal with the major scale or the pentatonic scale. They share the same notes so it's a freebie! Not so with the blues scale - it just makes things harder.
But where does that lead? Where can you go? Second position major is not that compelling. Neither is third position major scale. If you cut it down and only use the pentatonic scales, you can improvise over a wide range of music while accessing positions that are not hard to master.
But if you are strictly playing/learning/teaching blues, then these scales won't get the job done.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Dec 10, 2013 3:58 AM
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MindTheGap
93 posts
Dec 10, 2013
5:10 AM
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hannes - Yes, if playing other styles as you do I would have thought that learning circle-of-fifths/relative minors would be helpful from the start.
harpdude61 - I agree with you actually, although I'd question 'the greats rarely went beyond 1,2,3' thing. Only because of that Charlie Musselwhite interview where he says that they were used in performance, although rarely recorded. Firstly, this is a genuine question by me rather than a statement! Secondly, it wouldn't be a reason to teach relative minors to beginners.
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harpdude61
1922 posts
Dec 10, 2013
5:44 AM
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Gap...say the greats did use 4th and 5th, I bet most never put together "relative minor".
My first line may have been a little stout...sorry.
Still, you could learn to play 5 or 6 different modes or scales in all 12 positions and never hear of relative minor....if you can play chromatically.
Think of it this way...the major scale has a relative minor, 4th position, Aolean Mode....
the major scale has a relative minor, 2nd position, Myxolidian Mode.....
the major scale has a relative minor, 3rd position Dorian mode
the major scale has a relative minor, 5th position Phrygian mode
If the major key is C, then none of the scales above have a sharp or flat. All white keys! Why not make a circle of 5ths that shows all related modes instead of one.
I wouldn't introduce a student to THE "relative minor" until he was ready to try 4th position at the earliest. I learned 4th just fine before I ever heard of relative minor.
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Gnarly
814 posts
Dec 10, 2013
5:45 AM
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HarpDude wrote in response to my statement
gnarly...a defense against what?
My reply . . .
Breaking the law . . . .
There are no minor key signatures--
If it sounds good, it is good--
All theory springs from striving to understand why that is.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 10, 2013 6:18 AM
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Michael Rubin
833 posts
Dec 10, 2013
5:51 AM
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Theory is FOR beginners. Playing with feeling is for advanced players.
OK< I am way overgeneralizing. But I think beginners can handle theory just fine.
Last Edited by Michael Rubin on Dec 10, 2013 5:52 AM
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Zadozica
285 posts
Dec 10, 2013
6:00 AM
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Azul Para Amparo, a great Charlie Musslewhite song played on a C harp in 4th position in Am. I am learning this song now.
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MindTheGap
94 posts
Dec 10, 2013
6:10 AM
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harpdude61 - re the greats, yes I see what you mean. I guess they hadn't seen arzajac's diagrams :-)
Re your point about modes, it's certainly true that learning the harp has made me revisit modes in way that I never did beginning a chromatic instrument. The ancient Greeks would have been great at the diatonic harmonica.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 10, 2013 6:11 AM
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MindTheGap
95 posts
Dec 10, 2013
6:14 AM
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Michael - that is a good question for the Beginners Thread, how much theory are we learning and how helpful it.
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Michael Rubin
834 posts
Dec 10, 2013
9:15 AM
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Now I have a little more time. First I wish to discuss the idea that relative minor or even the aeolian mode is 4th position. It is not.
The aeolian mode is a scale whose root note is the 6th note in a major scale and shares the same notes as that major scale.
Relative minor is a synonym for aeolian mode.
4th position means playing your harmonica in a key whose root note is 3 clockwise movements from the name of your harmonica on the circle of fifths.
The aeolian scale is possibly the easiest way to play in fourth position but you can play any scale in fourth position.
You can play the aeolian scale in any position.
Personally as a teacher I use theory both as a way to learn how music works, but also give the student more time to practice the physical techniques they are working on. If I teach you to pucker a single note, it generally takes 2 weeks to get to the level where the student is ready to bend. Therefore the lesson in between single notes and bending can be used to learn the names of the notes on the keyboard, providing the dual purpose of giving the student more practice time and learning about how to choose good sounding notes.
Then, as far as the original question goes, I normally teach the notes on a keyboard first, then half steps and whole steps, then have the student use half steps and whole steps to write out all 12 major scales.
Then we learn about the circle of fifths as a way to remember the names of the notes in the 12 major scales and find I IV and V chords and understand how to choose a harp for a song's key based on positions.
Then we learn where the 1st, 2nd and 3rd position major scales are on the harp, play the scales and jam.
Then we learn about modes. The purpose of modes for my lessons is mostly about the mixolydian scale, so the student can begin to think about altering major scales to create new feelings, such as flatting the seventh for a bluesy feeling.
But, since we are talking modes, I will discuss the aeolian mode and explain it is the most common way to play minor. I will explain the natural minor and relative minor are synonyms for the aeolian scale. I will say it is called the relative minor because A minor is RELATED to C major, so if someone says play in the key of A minor, they could use the notes from the C major scale.
I will play an A minor rhythm while they play on their C harp without bending and say, see how sad that sounds? You're in 4th position! And that's it for a long while.
When we return to learn about minors I explain how to think about aeolian as a major scale with a flatted 3, 6th and 7th note. I also teach other minor scales, aeolian is not the only way to play minor.
So to answer the original question, I spend very little time thinking about the math of the relative minor. I do not spend time explaining to my students if you go up three half steps from your minor key's root you get the name of the major scale that is related to it, except in passing. Basically I agree with the original post that thinking of aeolian as a mode of a major scale is nowhere near as easy as flatting the 3rd, 6th and 7th note of the major scale that has the same root as your key.
I also only touch on 4th and fifth position for a minute for the first year. Blues harp is mostly about 1st, 2nd and 3rd position. Learn the blues and use it as a template to learn other styles of music and positions.
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nacoran
7409 posts
Dec 10, 2013
10:26 AM
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Mr. Rubin's point about the relation of the major and minor scales, I think, is what I am trying to impart (I think- my brain is scrambled right now. I drank too much caffeine yesterday and paid for it with only 2 hours of sleep. I have a vague recollection of getting into a political argument somewhere on the web at 5 am and the rest is a blur! lol.)
I've also noticed, when I go into posts about the Circle of Fifths that I get nervous about how long the post is ever since they put the character limit in. I can't prove it since the longer posts got deleted when they switch over, but I think I took a little more care explaining that I wasn't demanding people memorize all the modes before they are allowed to kiss the blessed holes, so again, if I've overwhelmed anyone, I apologize. :) Soooo sleepy.
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Nate
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dougharps
486 posts
Dec 10, 2013
10:33 AM
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I agree with harpdude61 that for a beginner a lot of talk about theory could be confusing. I think it is best to get people familiar with the instrument and playing music, then gradually introduce theory as you add different songs in different modes. You don't need to know the words "relative minor" to pick out the melody of "Summertime" on a C harp in Am.
When I was first learning in the '70s I had not heard of modes. I could only afford 2 or 3 harps. It didn't stop me from learning songs and making music.
When trying to play songs I knew I stumbled into what I later learned were 1st through 4th positions. I think I occasionally used some 5th on a C harp without knowing what it was ("Under My Thumb"). I think I may have also played some 12th position on occasion at jams without knowing!
My point (and personal opinion) is that wherever you focus your efforts there is always a tradeoff. Learning by picking out songs by ear is good training and will help you learn to improvise on simple 1-4-5 chord songs. When you learn songs in different modes, it will build your overall skill in navigating the entire harp.
Learning theory and scales can speed your intellectual understanding of the structure of music and be useful in the future, particularly in playing more complex forms of music that go beyond 1-4-5 chords, and playing positions beyond the modes that are easily accessible in that position.
Given that people have different learning styles, I don't think there is any one way that is best for everyone in learning harp. The musical goals of the student should set the direction of early instruction. New players need successes to encourage them to continue.
But at the early stages, I still think it is best to keep it simple and just learn to make music!
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Doug S.
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groyster1
2483 posts
Dec 10, 2013
11:19 AM
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I keep it simple....the circle of 5ths diagram helps me do just that....don't go jam without it
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STME58
607 posts
Dec 10, 2013
11:53 AM
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There are some analogies with riding a bicycle that I think apply here.
I could hand a non-rider a bike, tell them to figure it out, just watch me. Then get on my bike and ride away, leaving them to figure it out. I could also explain how the bike works in detail including the equations of motion and not let them on the bike until they had it all down. Neither of these is a good plan but the first one is more likely to work. A hybrid of the two, with explanations at a level the rider can understand and is ready for (stay off the front brake! Pick up the inside pedal on the turn), along with a bit of extra support will probably get the new rider up and going with fewer scrapes and bruises.
A person cannot ride a bike without understanding the principles at some level. Every rider knows that to initiate a turn, you must first push the handlebars in the opposite direction of the way you want to go. Few riders know this at a conscious level, but all riders know to do it, even the ones who insist it is not true!
Music is the same way. If you are not operating according to principles you are going to fall flat. You don’t have to be able to describe or understand the principles to use them though. Just mess around with music long enough and you are going to start getting the principles ingrained into you. Fortunately, taking a spill musically hurts less than taking a spill on a bike (well not always).
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Frank
3461 posts
Dec 10, 2013
1:07 PM
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Walter knew the notes needed to play Masterful Blues...
How do you hang around the musicians he did and not discuss the theory side of music? :)
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undertheradar
54 posts
Dec 10, 2013
1:10 PM
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The question in my mind should be what note to play on the change of a minor chord? So in a standard 4 chord country song, (3 beats to a chord) of G, D, Am, C. I should play C over the Am? That C sounds way too happy.
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tmf714
2241 posts
Dec 10, 2013
5:52 PM
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1847
1380 posts
Dec 10, 2013
6:31 PM
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the more you cry little girl
the more you're gonna drive me away
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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JInx
680 posts
Dec 10, 2013
10:47 PM
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relative minor is one of the hallmarks of modern music….an illustration of harmony and purity. it's such a satisfying concept, why anyone would ignore it is beyond me
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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harpdude61
1923 posts
Dec 11, 2013
6:18 AM
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I think Jinx and some others are missing my point here. Sure you should learn 4th position if you want. Why highlight it on a circle chart if you are not doing the same for other positions?
Some teachers teach like you would a high school or college course. Take the student thru the steps so they understand "why" it is what is. Every student gets the same workbook.
I ask what the students goals are with harmonica and go from there.
I gave my fist lesson yesterday to a high energy 70 year old man. He had tried to learn some things on his own. He understood I,IV,V, what the root note meant, and what an octave was. His tone was weak and airy and he clenched the harp in his mouth with a vise-like pucker. He actually thought he was bending a draw note, when all he was doing was moving his tongue and reshaping his mouth to give a different color to the same pitch.
Anyway, he gave me some song samples that he would like to be able to play along with. My goal above all else is to help him get relaxed and get a good sound out of the harp. He learned quickly.
He understands that 2nd position is the draw chord (V) of the harp and thats all he needs to know for now. I may show him a circle of 5ths if he decides he wants to go into positions beyond first and second. I won't show him a 5ths chart with the Aolean Mode added to it to confuse him.
My goal is to get him to his goal as fast as possible. Hey, I work for him! If his goals change as he progresses, mine will too.
Why would you teach private lessons any other way?
If he says he wants to be like Howard or Carlos someday, I may just send him to Mr. Rubin. If he says he wants to jam with his buds playing the blues and learn a few licks he has heard in some blues standards that is the way we will go.
A student that wants to do Sonny Terry does not need me wasting his time and frustrating him with modes, postions, charts, and note names. He has the correct harp, knows he is wailing on the flat 5, and having a ball. Now I feel good!
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Dec 11, 2013 6:20 AM
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undertheradar
55 posts
Dec 11, 2013
8:09 AM
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SuperBee, Thats what I know. C is too happy. On a guitar the Am is a combonation of 3 notes. What harmonica note works over the Am to get the same affect?? Its not C (although the misleading chart says C is relative major to Am. All that chart means is the scale of notes is the same, just started at a different interval. So I ask again, on a standard 10 diatonic harp, what one note do you play on the harmonica over an Am chord on guitar?
Last Edited by undertheradar on Dec 11, 2013 8:13 AM
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Gnarly
815 posts
Dec 11, 2013
8:25 AM
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The notes that agree are A, C and E. If you don't like them, try the G--any note is fine, as long as you resolve it to one of the above four notes.
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tmf714
2242 posts
Dec 11, 2013
8:44 AM
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@undertheradar-the chart is correct-
Here's Charlie playing Azul Para Amparo =the guitar is in Am-Charlie is playing in 4th position using a C harp-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Dec 11, 2013 8:45 AM
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timeistight
1445 posts
Dec 11, 2013
9:27 AM
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"On a guitar the Am is a combonation of 3 notes. What harmonica note works over the Am to get the same affect?"
An A minor triad is A, C and E whether it's on a guitar, piano, harmonica or any other instrument or combination of instruments. To get the same effect, you need all three notes. On a G harp, that's draw 5, 6 and 7. Or you can play one or two of the notes and rely on other instruments to fill in the missing tones.
Does that answer your question, or am I misunderstanding you?
Last Edited by timeistight on Dec 11, 2013 9:28 AM
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dougharps
487 posts
Dec 11, 2013
9:45 AM
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@harpdude61
I really respect that you adjust your teaching to the goals of the student. If the goals change later, you can alter your instruction. Your example about the 70 year old is a good one!
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Regarding positions and modes (such as relative minor or Aeolian)here is my "position";>)
Michael Rubin and others who know theory well often correctly clarify that the position is not the same as the mode, such as 3rd position is not Dorian mode and 4th position is not Aeolian mode. This is true.
They note many different scales that can be played in each position with the common element being the tonal center/1st note of the scale set by the position, such as 3rd position starting on the 2nd note of the original scale, and 4th position starting on the 6th note of the original major scale. In the key of C, 3rd position starts on D, 4th position starts on A.
Michael and the others are correct, but it sometimes confuses people because they can HEAR the modes related to the positions. Modes ARE related to positions, but positions are not limited to the related modes.
POS NOTE(starting) MODE(related)
1st = 1 Ionian
2nd = 5 Mixolydian
3rd = 2 Dorian
4th = 6 Aeolian
5th = 3 Phrygian
6th = 7
7th = 5b/4#
8th = 2b/1#
9th = 6b/5#
10th = 3b/2#
11th = 7b/6#
12th = 4 Lydian
If you DON'T ALTER the original major(Ionian)1st position scale notes, and you start playing those notes on a different numbered note (degree) of that scale, you will be playing a different mode of the original scale.
So, for example, if you have the notes of a C major scale (1st position, Ionian mode), and you play only those notes starting in 4th position on the 6th note of the C scale("A"), then you are playing in Am, the Aeolian mode of the C scale, the "Relative Minor" of C. If you play using only the white keys on a piano and start on the "A", you will hear the Aeolian "relative minor" scale. This is a mode of the C scale.
If you start that same C Ionian major scale on the 2nd note, "D", which is the starting note for 3rd position and you use only the notes of the "C" scale without adding or changing those notes, then you are playing the Dorian minor mode of the C scale.
So when you play in any position on a diatonic harmonica, and you restrict yourself to only the available major notes of the original scale, then you are playing in a mode of that scale. The related mode begins on the same note indicated by position. That mode is one of the many scales you can play in that position starting on that note.
Each scale has modes (Aeolian mode of the F major (Ionian) scale is D minor; the relative minor of F; Dorian mode is G Dorian) These modes correspond to 4th and 3rd position on the circle of fifths. You can find these related modes the same way you find positions on the circle of fifths.
Playing a mode requires that in the related position you restrict yourself to the notes of the original scale. When you start adding notes by bending and overblowing outside that scale, you are playing other scales in that position, not just playing the mode.
This is why people speak of 3rd, 4th, and 5th being minor positions. It is not truly accurate to state it that way, since position only defines the first note of the scale.
HOWEVER, you can take advantage of the modes that are easily available. Choosing a position starting note and related mode that will make it easier to play minor songs makes sense. It makes minor songs more accessible to players that haven't mastered bending and overblowing.
I hope this explanation doesn't confuse the issue even more.
WIKI MODES
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Doug S.
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STME58
608 posts
Dec 11, 2013
9:51 AM
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@undertheradar’s question got me thinking. At the risk of proving @harpdude61’s point about how theory can confuse beginners and also at the risk of demonstrating that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I will present my musings. The up side is I will probably learn something from the corrections of the more knowledgeable.
I wrote out the chords given in the table below. These make the most sense in G major. It is going to be tough to get this to sound sad. The relative minor of G is E (both share the same key signature of one sharp F#) but there is no E chord so it is going to be hard to make E feel like home. An interesting side note on this chart is how many notes are shared between the chords.
Chord Notes G major E minor
G G B D I III
D D F# A V VII
Am A C E II IV
C C E G IV VI
There is an Am chord. A is the relative minor of C so if we ditch the F# from the key of G we get the following table. We have a 1 and a 4 in A minor so we could probably make A feel like home and get the song sounding sad. We also have a 1,4 and 5 in C major so it would be very easy to slip into C major. That is the interesting thing about a key and its relative minor, you can move back and forth easily on a diatonic instrument.
Chord Notes A Minor C Major
G G B D VII V
Dm D F A iv ii
Am A C E i vi
C C E G III I
If we were to put this in G minor we would flat the 3rd 5th and 7th of the G scale and end up with a key signature of 2 flats (Bb and Eb). Now we have the 1, 4 and 5 and this is going to be pretty stable in G minor. I wonder if these were the intended chords for a country tune in G minor rather than the chorde @ undertheradar listed. We also get the Am diminished 5th chord which will keep things from sounding too happy. Any harp you can get G,A,Bb,C,D,Eb,F on can be used to play notes in these chords. An F harp in third(lower the Es to Eb), Bb harp in 4th (all the notes are there), Eb harp in 5th (raise the Abs to A) are among the choices.
Chord Notes G Minor
Gm G Bb D i
Dm D F A v
Amdim5 A C Eb ii
Cm C Eb G iv
While this might be useful if I were sitting down and writing out parts, it is certainly confusing and unnecessary to a beginner. I think the most important thing to convey to a beginner about the major scales and their relative minor is that the same set of notes can be major or minor depending on which note you make “home”. If someone points out that the above is riddled with errors that just further proves the point. Perhaps this type of thing should be left to trained professionals. I am a trained and licensed professional (just not in music! :-)).
Dang! my tables got scrambled into gobbledygook by the format change from edit to post. I'll try getting rid of the tabs....Nope, that didn't work. Before someone else says it, perhaps they were gobbledygook to start with!.
Here is a link to the word document if you want to see it unscrambled
Chord Analysis
Last Edited by STME58 on Dec 11, 2013 10:32 AM
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