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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Do Diatonic Players Need "Relative Minor"??
Do Diatonic Players Need "Relative Minor"??
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Michael Rubin
835 posts
Dec 11, 2013
10:39 AM
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I want to make it clear my method is not for someone who wants to play on the level of Howard or Carlos. My method would be a great starting place and after 4 years they may be able to start music school and understand what the teacher says the first day.
My method is about enabling the player to figure out what key a song is in, determine if it is a major, minor or blues song and choose the right harp, position and notes to sound good. It should enable any player to jam in any situation without sounding like a wanker. My method is FOR BEGINNERS. And, I truly believe is one of the fastest ways to achieve the goals harpdude's hypothetical student iswanting to reach.
Last Edited by Michael Rubin on Dec 11, 2013 10:40 AM
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dougharps
488 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:56 AM
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I posted above info on "my position" in order to respond to the original post and to clarify my own approach to grabbing the "low hanging fruit" of using modes related to positions to play songs in minor keys without needing to use more advanced bending and overblow techniques.
The original post was about relative minor and beginning students who might be confused. I wanted to point out that you don't need to force abstract concepts of theory if that isn't what the student is seeking.
I am an advocate of learning by doing, and developing your ear and building an intuitive knowledge of where notes are on the harp. I believe that theory is very useful and needed to progress as a player, but you can come at it in different ways. I have seen the glazed look slide over students' eyes if I throw out too much theory at once for them to handle.
I do want to clarify that I consider Michael Rubin to be one of the most knowledgeable instructors/players out there. I believe that his instructional approach will help the serious beginning harmonica student learn to play well, with their playing being well informed by theory.
In the past I have attended seminars at SPAH in which Michael demonstrated the scope of his knowledge and ability. However, I didn't learn harmonica from him, having taken the long slow road of learning by doing (@STME58 - I fell off the bike a lot!), then coming back to learn theory later.
I would expect that learning theory and playing simultaneously from Michael would have been a much shorter road to playing well, and I encourage beginners to consider Michael as a teacher. Just a review of his youtube lessons will demonstrate his knowledge. The description he posted above of how he approaches lessons for beginners seems solid to me.
Michael, nothing I posted was intended to imply any doubt about your harmonica knowledge and ability, or to question your approach to instruction. I hope I did not offend in any way.
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Doug S.
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mr_so&so
772 posts
Dec 11, 2013
12:20 PM
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I am grateful that this sort of discussion can exist to this depth on this forum. I know that theory helps my playing, but I also subscribe to the idea of "just enough so as not to get in the way of playing music".
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Michael Rubin
836 posts
Dec 11, 2013
12:30 PM
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Dougharps, thanks for the kind words. You said nothing to bug me. Harpdude's the one who got my dander up, and even he's cool with me.
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nacoran
7410 posts
Dec 11, 2013
12:36 PM
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Harpdude, the thing about the relative minor is it's relatively (badumpum) easy to explain. Like I said, on a forum you sort of have to use a shotgun approach rather than tailoring to what each person knows.
I still think a little piano is the gold standard of learning theory. The amount you need to be able to count out the different keys is tiny. For blues playing, the relative minor is just a tool to explain the patterns for me (but my theory is no where near what Michael's is- I've really got to get back to the Meat & Potatoes (I've actually been going through a bit of a musical funk lately).
If I had a student, I would (and did when I had a student!) ask them what they wanted to learn, try to tailor it to them and what they already know, but after I tell them 'work on hitting clean single notes', 'work on hitting the hole you mean to hit' and 'learn to know where you are on the harp by hearing intervals' there is a certain amount of practice that they have to put in, and I'm not sure them sitting there in front of me practicing is going to be the most productive use of either of our time. If they are motivated, I can pick a track, tell them the key and tell them to try to play along with it and report back.
When I first picked up harmonica (well, I'd picked out Twinkle Twinkle Little Star years before on a tremolo by remembering what the intervals looked like in sheet music, but that was all) I told myself I wasn't going to try to play anything or 'learn' (formally) anything for 6 months. I was just going to make noise and learn intervals. I had some theory from other musical endeavours years before, but I just focused on learning where the notes were. I wasn't ready to apply theory to anything, but I don't think I was ready for lessons either. Make noise for a while and learn the intervals. Learn what strings of notes fit together and sound good (for me that meant a lot of 1st position). When it's time to start studying though, I think a mix of theory and practice is important. At least that's the mix I found useful, but like I said, everyone learns differently.
One of my best friends was studying to be a teacher, after a roundabout route to college. He'd never enjoyed school much, except for a couple teachers who had really challenged him and called him out on his scholastic laziness, told him to be creative, rode him, and treated him like a smart guy who was coasting instead of a dumb guy. (He is a smart guy.) Sometimes though he'd start to see everything as a nail. He was a hammer.
Me, in school, I liked the creative teachers fine, but the teachers who rode me? I'd just tune them out. The teachers who wouldn't explain why something worked? I'd tune them out.
I know other people who learn best learning things by rote.
In private lessons, a teacher can try to pick up on how each student learns best.
One message I see on this forum that does bug me sometimes it the 'everyone looks down on a harmonica player because we aren't 'real' musicians.' There is no such thing. There are guys who don't know theory who can play, and guys who know theory who can't, and guys who don't know theory and can't play, and guys who can do both. I think a really useful skill is being able to tell what sounds good. If you can tell what sounds good, even if you can't make those sounds, you are way ahead. That takes listening skills, but a teacher can tell you what to listen to, but again, I don't think it's a great use of either of your time if he sits there and makes you listen to it. (He may be able to help you hear things, but if you haven't gotten familiar with your instrument saying 'thats a double stop' won't help.
For me, I need to know why. That's me. If a teacher doesn't tell me why, I tune them out. Other people are just 'how'. The trick is spotting who needs what. On a website the best we can do is say, 'Pick and chose'.
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boris_plotnikov
914 posts
Dec 11, 2013
1:44 PM
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I think harmonica players don't need positions but need understanding of notes and scales, including relative minor (and understanding that relative minor is almost the same as aeolinian scale). It's just my opinion. Music is possible without theory, especially for geniuses with perfect pitch, playing in one style or playing some avant-garde or electronic is ok without theory but I think that for most guys theory is very useful and make them to understand music better.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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The Iceman
1323 posts
Dec 11, 2013
3:00 PM
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Boris...
Relative minor is the same as Aeolian.
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The Iceman
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timeistight
1446 posts
Dec 11, 2013
4:07 PM
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Not necessarily. Relative keys are major and minor keys that share the same key signature. The minor keys can use any minor scale; key signature doesn't change between natural minor (aka Aeolian), harmonic minor and melodic minor.
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STME58
609 posts
Dec 11, 2013
4:19 PM
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Some people seem to be using the term relative as if it is another form of scale. What makes understanding relative keys useful is knowing that they share the same notes. Minor is confusing because there are 3 minors as @timeistight said, natural, harmonic and melodic. There is not another scale with a different half/whole step pattern called relative minor.
A very simple and useful fact for even a beginning harp player is that C Major and A (natural)minor share exactly the same notes. There are 11 other such useful major/minor relationships. There are other relative modes but major and minor are the most common.
I find it a very helpful exercise to sit at a keyboard and pick out melodies on the white keys and experiment with getting A to sound like home (minor) then getting C to sound like home (major). You can do this in any key but just staying on the white keys is easy even for someone with no knowledge of key signatures.
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Michael Rubin
837 posts
Dec 11, 2013
4:39 PM
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STME58 I also find the dorian scale is good for minor as are the blues scale and the minor pentatonic
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harpdude61
1924 posts
Dec 11, 2013
5:20 PM
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timeistight and STME58....Thank you! That is what I have been trying to say all along! The term "relative" can be confusing to someone that is just being exposed to the circle of 5ths chart. Why only share one mode?
Michael..my Carlos/Howard comment was meant as a compliment to your teaching expertise.
I am insulted that you called my student "hypothetical". A 20 year old young lady won a local talent contest, so I asked her to sing a couple with my band. She did great and the instant we took a break her grandmother's brother came to me with his story and asked for help. You are calling me a story fabricator, sir?
I prefer to teach (and play) more by feel rather than using my knowledge to decide what I should teach. A regimen of theory facts for each student is just too brittle. All are different.
I don't teach note names and I will tell you why. After a student becomes comfortable with 2nd position, it is much easier for the student to grasp your explanations of the scales in 1st or 3rd position when you use the term flat 5th or major 7th, instead of F# on a C key or D on a Eb key. The student only has to get it down one time instead of 12 (one for each key). He should be able to speak this language to any band that is halfway decent.
I find students would rather play for me than sit while I'm at the blackboard with a wooden stick. They want me to hear what they came up with to that jam track, or practice my call/answer drill where I play it and they try to find it and play it back.
We'll watch together the James Cotton slow blues video and figure out what he is doing.
I guess each teacher is as different as each player. I don't call myself a music teacher...just a harmonica teacher. Priorities for my students are good solid technique for sounding the harmonica,just enough theory knowledge to play what THEY want to play, a good time that makes them want more, and we jam our asses off. I'm pleased! Would you like to interview my "real" students Michael? They have the best time.
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Michael Rubin
838 posts
Dec 11, 2013
6:04 PM
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Harpdude, I meant no offense by the word hypothetical. I simply was saying that you were describing a method you would use with many students. I got the feeling from your comments your were talking about your overall teaching style rather than one particular student. My apologies.
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Michael Rubin
839 posts
Dec 11, 2013
6:35 PM
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Harpdude, thinking further I can certainly see how you would read hypothetical the way that you did. I assure you, I had and have no doubts that you have real students, it was a poor choice of words and completely unintentional.
I also have the students jam every class and we also take solos and decipher them.
Last Edited by Michael Rubin on Dec 11, 2013 6:37 PM
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STME58
611 posts
Dec 12, 2013
1:10 AM
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Dorian is one of my favorite modes. I did not bring it up so as not to add more confusion but now that its out in this discussion....
I like the monastic feel you can get with it. It is the mode of the Gregorian Chant. On the white keys it is D Dorian, which makes it the relative Dorain of both C Major and A minor, although I have never heard anyone speak of a relative Dorian (or relative Phrigian, Lydian etc. There is one for every note in the scale). When playing around on the white keys of the keyboard, lead into D with a C (leading tone in D Dorian) frequently as you improvise a melody and you will start to hear that monastic feel.
Last Edited by STME58 on Dec 12, 2013 1:12 AM
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STME58
612 posts
Dec 12, 2013
1:23 AM
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@harpdude61,
When I took music theory in college decades ago, we used scale degrees rather than note names. It is the relationship between the notes, not the key you are in that is critical. The harmonica actually makes this more obvious.
Because it was college and you have to be sophisticated, rather than calling the scale degrees 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7 it was I, II, III, IV, V, VI and VII or tonic, supertonic, mediant, subdominant, dominant, submediant and leading tone. I don't know how leading tone got in there, it sounds an awful lot like plain english!
I did not play harp in college, if I had, I think the theory would have come easier. I think you are sneaking theory on you students without them knowing it. This reminds me of teaching a kid to ride a bike at the point where they can do it as long as they think you are still holding them up. Don't let your students know they are learning theory or they will immediately crash!
Last Edited by STME58 on Dec 12, 2013 1:26 AM
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harpdude61
1925 posts
Dec 12, 2013
2:59 AM
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Michael, STME58...you guys rock...maybe I am teaching more theory than I know.
Students do love the answer/call exercise. Keep it where they will be mostly successful. They get into it.
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nacoran
7413 posts
Dec 12, 2013
7:46 AM
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Answer/call exercises? Hey now, don't make me lock this thread! We will have no temporal paradoxes here!
:)
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Nate
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scojo
443 posts
Dec 13, 2013
12:38 PM
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"I play a lot of 3rd position, but I just have never related it to my 12th position play in any way."
Harpdude, one thing that helps illuminate it is when you have a song that moves from, say, C minor in the verse to Eb major in the chorus. You can use a Bb harmonica for the whole thing (3rd position on verse, 12th position on chorus). This is a vivid, less theoretical illustration of the connection between the two positions. (You can also use an Ab harmonica for the whole thing... 5th position on verse, 2nd position on chorus.)
I have a song on my next record that does this.
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