HarpNinja
3623 posts
Dec 03, 2013
12:41 PM
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A lot of us, including myself, jumped on this, but it seems to have really died down. I've been rethinking it this week...I haven't looped anything in well over a year...probably pushing two.
Anyone having success playing paid shows?
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Gnarly
806 posts
Dec 03, 2013
12:51 PM
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i have a steady nursing home gig (once a month) and I usually use sequences.
Time before last I used loopers, and was well received.
It's a lot more work to do it all live, but more like "real music".
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HarpNinja
3624 posts
Dec 03, 2013
1:09 PM
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I just can't do the backing track thing. That is pretty unheard of around here, though. I would be more inclined to at least try it if it wasn't so foreign. I also think it is harder to pull of with just harmonica.
I have thought about using prerecorded loops at some point, but the gear end gets overwhelming.
The rage here is acoustic duos and trios. You can gig for money 4-6 times a month withing 20min of my house doing that. The problem is you still need to be able to do a couple of hours.
There are more and more happy hour shows where looping might work around here. Originally, the only thing I could get paid for was minimum of two hours music time. That is a lot with just a harp.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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BigSteveNJ
25 posts
Dec 03, 2013
1:15 PM
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Unfortunately, using loopers, like anything else in live music, is not the exclusive domain of the talented and/or tasteful.
Problem is that the fans who dug live music with loops done well were also subjected to music with loops done poorly.
Looping is just not something that more than a small percentage of musicians can make interesting enough to hold up over lots of songs in lots of shows.
There's also relatively little more that can be done with looping-pedal technology without putting it totally out of the reach of the average working player.
I think it was a neat idea that can help people in the studio, and some few people live, but an idea whose time has really passed.
Honestly, looping never did much for me, because you can't tell that "band" of looped phrases to stop, change key, change time signature, and so on.
I'm much more of a seat-of-the-pants, let's write a head and then jam the hell out of the rest, kind of player.
I can't imagine blues being done really well by one person with a looper. Again, so many nuances that you have to play, and then they become sterile repeats instead of fun ideas and changes.
All, of course, IMHHPO (in my humble harmonica-playing opinion).
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boris_plotnikov
909 posts
Dec 03, 2013
1:30 PM
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I play one or two tunes a gig with loops. I can't sing enough good and my beatbox is far from being good, looping only harmonica with FX is cool for one or two tunes, more is boring. I'm on the way of looping guitar, but still don't have a good guitar (although I dream of it for the last year).
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Excuse my bad English.
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HarpNinja
3625 posts
Dec 03, 2013
1:52 PM
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Steve, yes and no on some of that. You can definitely stop, change keys, etc. depending no the rig - especially if you use a computer based looper.
I think, actually, it fits blues pretty well as you can do some very raw stuff. Son of Dave's Shake a Bone album is a fantastic example.
Otis Taylor and his brand of trance blues would fit looping well too. The issue for me, anyways, is that it would be much cooler done on guitar than harp.
Personally, I am proficient at it, but not great. The stuff I tried to do was limited more by my self confidence and ability than the gear. I only did a handful of looped sets, but like Boris, find it a great thing to throw into a set as a change of pace.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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HarpNinja
3626 posts
Dec 03, 2013
1:54 PM
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Regarding looping in general, I think that playing to backing tracks hasn't peaked yet (I am talking in general, and not harp specific). The single person and duo stuff is the current state of live performance for a lot of people.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Komuso
236 posts
Dec 03, 2013
8:22 PM
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I have a looper but never really got into it.
I prefer creating flexible sound beds and jamming live over the top.
I don't like using backing tracks for live as they are like railroad tracks. Good for learning, but to inflexible for live if you're a jam band style.
I can see the value if you are a lounge act or karaoke singer though, doing what people want to hear and what they know. Don't stray from the formula!
I've developed my own flexible jam system for playing online using Ableton Live's clip view, a launchpad controller with a custom interface driving the Live clip view and VSTi's, and some artificial intelligence on the drums and bass that are also responsive to sound input so you can play with dynamics and control the volume and intensity of backing instruments - something you are locked into with both backing tracks and a looper bed once you create it - unless you rerecord on the fly.
Playing slide and rack harp I can have a flexible jam band type accompaniment of bass/drums/keys/FX, or any combination of them, or drop them out entirely and just play with guitar and harp.
It's evolved over the years, and I'm just about to rework it after updating to NI Komplete 9 (50% off w/ thanksgiving sales, I was hanging on Komplete 6) and I also picked up EZKeys for 70% off recently.
EZKeys has a pretty neat songwriting mode which is great for rapid prototyping ideas.
There's lots of options to construct flexible jamming systems nowdays, but you need to spend some time to know the tools.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Dec 03, 2013 8:31 PM
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Gnarly
807 posts
Dec 03, 2013
9:07 PM
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One of the advantages of playing harp and guitar with looping is being able to end (erase) a loop and start another without what we call "dead air" . . .
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didjcripey
664 posts
Dec 03, 2013
9:53 PM
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I think it depends on the artist.
'An idea whose time has passed'?
Depends....
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Lucky Lester
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nacoran
7391 posts
Dec 03, 2013
11:18 PM
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I heard KT Tunstall on the radio the other day on a pop station (in my brother's minivan). I'm not sure if it was the loop version of Cherry Tree. I think the more things you can build loops with the more versatile it is. If you play guitar, you can already play harp and guitar at the same time, and maybe foot drums, but if you beat box and add vocals you can sound like a full band.
I like playing with other people, but it certainly lets you keep a bigger share of the gig pay.
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Nate
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Komuso
237 posts
Dec 04, 2013
12:25 AM
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I've been thinking about why I don't get off on looping (while I do appreciate the skill) and it's due to a certain sterility inherent in looping.
What I mean by that is that loops will always sound the same on playback.
Sure, you're layering them and playing over the top but the loop repeat is the same. Even if you are remixing by mute/solo they are still the same.
Contrast that with a live rhythm section playing a looping groove and you will hear (not always consciously though) subtle variations in timing, timbre, and volume that make it feel alive, or should I say even more alive than with just the soloist jamming over the groove alive.
To some extent you can get past this with looping by running the loops through an FX chain that auto modulates the output via stepseq/lfo/algo so it doesn't sound like a broken record (using an extreme analogy here). It would be even better if each loops layer could be individually FX'd for max flexibility.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Dec 04, 2013 1:11 AM
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Brendan Power
386 posts
Dec 04, 2013
9:27 PM
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I'm with didjcripey: it depends on how well it's done. I've seen Son of Dave live, and he rocks a club venue all on his own. People dancing all night, loving it. Check out brilliant creative guys like Beardyman (below) - he can rock tens of thousands at big outdoor festivals with just his voice, plus intelligence and talent.
I'm far from that level but recently did a 1.5 hour solo slow with live looping to 300 people in Kayserburg, France for Robert Koch's annual FestiBlues. It went down fantastic. The comments afterwards and merch sales were great; people certainly weren't bored.
I think the key is VARIETY. Yes, if you want to play Blues all night with loops, it will be boring. But if you mix up the musical styles, sounds and types of loops, live looping can definitely work well for a whole night's gig.
And the gear is getting so much better now too - witness Roland's new Boss RC-505 Loop Station. It has 5
synched loops each with its own fader, designed for hand-operation. The possibilities with that thing are endless, it just takes creativity and practice to tap into it.
Certainly there is nothing that can replace the vibe of two or more musicians jamming brilliantly. But just like there are amazing, good, and plain awful duos/trios/bands, the same goes with live loopers.
Beardyman does the business, and he doesn't even have a harmonica!
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Dec 04, 2013 9:29 PM
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Jehosaphat
630 posts
Dec 04, 2013
10:01 PM
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I don't like looping full stop.But then i am an old fart.
But when i look at guys like Beardyman i reckon to master all that gear they must of put in the same amount of hours at it as it would take them to learn an instrument to mastery level.
You have to respect that
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Martin
554 posts
Dec 05, 2013
2:53 AM
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"Is live looping on the wane?"
I must say I hope so. Not meaning to be mean but the fact that the technology is there and readily available has perhaps appealed a bit too widely. Multi sunt vocati, pauci vero electi.
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Baker
350 posts
Dec 05, 2013
3:43 AM
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This is thread reminded me of Dave Ferguson. He doesn't get mentioned much. I've seen him play live and he was amazing. Kept a whole room full of people entertained all night. I think he's from South Africa and I believe he spent some time time in the UK with Son of Dave.
Last Edited by Baker on Dec 05, 2013 3:43 AM
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Martin
555 posts
Dec 05, 2013
4:27 AM
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Fabulous sound, great playing and all that -- but I believe everything I´ve seen with him has been forced into a one-chord thing, even "Love hurts" ...
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Brendan Power
387 posts
Dec 05, 2013
4:51 AM
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It doesn't have to be one-chord at all. Some of my loops are whole song sequences with several chords included. The 12 Bar Blues is an obvious example of that type of thing, but you can also do other chord sequences. Check out 'My Babe' below. It's not trying to be a copy of Little Walter's original at all, but it does include the whole song sequence.
Another way of getting chord changes is to use multi-track loopers, which are proliferating now. One of the best is also the cheapest: the 'Loopy' app available for about $5 on Apple phones and iPads. It is awesome, and can be used in a live situation with the iRig input/output or similar.
The Boss RC 505 is the latest and best pro multi-track looper. With such equipment you can have several parts in different chords or even keys that can be triggered at will. Here is Dub FX demonstrating it:
To answer Komuso's wish, this one CAN have different effects on for different loops
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Dec 05, 2013 4:52 AM
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J-Sin
149 posts
Dec 05, 2013
5:30 AM
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@Brendan: I'm using this opportunity to ask your experience about single pedal loopers, I understand you used one of those before. This is from another thread:
"The only problem (with Jamman Solo or Boss Rc-2) I can think of is the double-press stop function. In my set I often kill the loop to play a solo or a short fill/break, and bring everything back after a while. My question is: if I start playing a solo for example on the last beat before I stop the beat, will the looper record my playing on the short period of time between my two pedal clicks? And when I bring the beat back, can you hear that short recording in the end of the loop? Any extra noises can sound really bad in a loop, so I'm thinking whether these pedals are for me or not."
Things like this can limit your musical possibilities to an extent where your music might sound "sterile" or monotonic, as suggested above. The looper pedals have been a bit archaic in functionality, and maybe that has reflected to the music one can create with them. Now they are starting to be very complicated machines. This widens the range of possibilities but also changes the way audiences and musicians understand music.
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Reed To The Beat!
Last Edited by J-Sin on Dec 05, 2013 5:31 AM
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J-Sin
150 posts
Dec 05, 2013
6:08 AM
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To give my opinion about the OP, I think looping really has come to stay - in some form at least. In my new book about the harmonica, I present looping as one of the most innovative forms of 21st century harmonica music. BUT, in order to stay innovative, we have to transcend traditional blues thinking, let alone harmonica thinking.
Looping brings the performer a step closer to being a DJ artist, and in order to succeed in this field one has to think very differently in terms of musical structures and arrangements than we have used to. I think musicians have spent enough time hypnotized about the sole ability to loop your own sounds and create infinite layers – without considering the fact that your whole thinking has to change with this appliance. And like in many things, I believe "less is more" -approach applies here too.
Yes, you can loop multi-chord multi-time-singature songs with current technology. The question is, do you always have to? Many loopers ritualistically layer the same elements: chords, bass line, beatboxing and melody, to make it sound like a "real song". The buildup of this whole thing creates so much "dead air" the audience is bored before the song even starts.
The loop can be 1 measure long for 6 minutes and tear the roof off. It can only have two drum beats and a bass note. I believe it would do this art form good to think more in terms of techno than 50's Chicago. Listen to Kid Koala's 12-bit Blues album. It's a fantastic new approach to this age-old tradition. Woodshed your beatboxing. Create loops with long pauses. Make it breathe.
I'm not saying I've succeeded in this, and I still enjoy playing with people more than looper gigs. But my manifesto to all of us is, that in order to turn this into creative art we first have to turn our brains around, and find the DJs inside us!
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Reed To The Beat!
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Komuso
240 posts
Dec 05, 2013
6:21 AM
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@Brendon "To answer Komuso's wish, this one CAN have different effects on for different loops"
Now we're talking. It's evolving from a glorified sampler/drum machine to a real instrument. I can see a heavy cognitive load on that interface to be able to work it really intuitively, but I'm sure a few people will be working it.
There are other alternatives too, using combination of hardware control surfaces like maschine or launchpad driving Live sets etc. While not as compact as the Boss, I think ultimately you would get more flexibility with this sort of setup.
I agree with J-Sin about "one has to think very differently in terms of musical structures and arrangements than we have used to."
I also do ambient experimental music using lots of FX ( I call it Bluestronica (tm) because it has one foot firmly planted there;-)
While it's not looping per se and it's generally not beat based it is based around sound beds with instrumental leads layered on top. The sound beds can be created by Reaktor generative instruments running on autopilot or cue triggered by control surface, or (for example) ambient guitar (like video below) combined with harp run through all sorts of stuff (similar to what brendan is doing with the pandora but you can do so much more with software instruments)
So while this thread is about Looping in context of original looping machines I think you can extend the concept of looping way beyond that, both musically and instrumentally.
But that would obviously depend on the gig and audience...if they expect beats ya better do beats!
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Dec 05, 2013 7:17 AM
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HarpNinja
3628 posts
Dec 05, 2013
6:41 AM
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If you have a good looper and take the time to do the math, you can work out whole song progressions. I think, though, it can create a lot of build time. There are ways to address this too, though.
I have Loopy HD, but don't want to use it live. Too much work setting it up. The Boomerang III is damn near perfect - the only issue I had was the inability to preload loops, something I am interested int.
I think it would be cool to do a few songs that have pre recorded parts in order to get into them faster. I spent a lot of time trying to find fast ways to get into songs, but that almost made looping more frustrating.
If you have a looper that lets you do a serial sync in multiples, you're set. For example, you can beat box one bar, hum a 2 bar bass line and then add another 1 bar harp part.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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HarpNinja
3629 posts
Dec 05, 2013
7:16 AM
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The RC 505 does look pretty cool.
Brendan, I've followed your looping YT's. The My Babe vid is great, but it shows some of the frustrations of looping. It was nearly a minute in before the first harp solo.
I think the best approach would be to be able to do multiple loop tracks with serial sync (just like the Boomerang) with the ability to store and recall loops by foot.
Then for performance, you could mix one chord songs with longer songs - some with preloaded tracks and others not - with solo tunes. Son of Dave has some cool YT's where he does a whole song harp boxing with now pedals. You'd also want some good effects to mix things up.
If I could pull this off in a small pedal board, I'd be all over it. I just can't decide if the Boomerang is worth it without the ability to use preloaded tracks.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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HarpNinja
3630 posts
Dec 05, 2013
7:19 AM
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To continue rambling...
A boat load of popular music, including a wealth of blues, have had very simple progressions - often of just a few bars. Check out the contemporary Otis Taylor for an example.
What I hear on pop radio would be easily looped by a competent looper.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Komuso
242 posts
Dec 05, 2013
3:57 PM
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Trance blues a la Junior Kimbrough is no different, but again the grooves he played against were not static but dynamic. The tradition of ostinato or boogie woogie goes back a long way. EDM is just the latest incarnation.
New loopers like the RC 505 (or more complex but flexible laptop/controller combos) are more like instruments in themselves so maybe it's better to approach them that way. But that entails learning them like an instrument to get the best out of them.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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sorin
350 posts
Dec 06, 2013
7:05 AM
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A master of loop pedals
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Free video harp tabs and backing tracks
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HarpNinja
3632 posts
Dec 06, 2013
8:00 AM
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I want a Boss RC 300! I might even have to take on a few new builds to fund one.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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boris_plotnikov
911 posts
Dec 06, 2013
1:59 PM
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I really like RC505 demo!
It have bunch of effects and it's possible to avoid extra FXs to loop!
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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Iggy K.
2 posts
Dec 19, 2013
8:45 AM
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Check out my one man band Harp Explosion. I'm using short prerecorded drum loops and I'm doing overdubs with harmonica and my vocal. Here is one song but you can find more on youtube or bandcamp...
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http://harpexplosion.bandcamp.com/
https://www.facebook.com/greenbulletholder
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isaacullah
2596 posts
Dec 20, 2013
6:51 AM
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I agree with J-Sin. Some of my favorite bands right now make good use of looping and sampling, but use them in a totally new way (Emily Wells, Wild Belle, tUnEyArDs, etc.). They play them as instruments, and don't stick to the dogma of building songs in the traditional way. IMO, It's here to stay.
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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HarpNinja
3651 posts
Dec 20, 2013
9:44 AM
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My OP was directed at harmonica live looping, although I didn't clarify that. Looping and sampling isn't going away for a loooooong time.
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Mike
My Website
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Gnarly
836 posts
Dec 20, 2013
11:12 AM
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I have tried looping harmonica, and it is interesting to me.
As a vocalist and guitarist, it is easier to interest an audience by looping the guitar instead of harp.
One advantage of looping harp is you have a hand free. Brendan does a good job of this.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 20, 2013 11:14 AM
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