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Gkastraveckas
17 posts
Feb 03, 2014
4:08 PM
Thanks, I have that book and several more but I don't really read the explanations more focus on the tabs.I really should actually read them but that stuff confuses me to no end.
There are done warm ups I've seen that don't actually involve any melody or sound good, they focus more on hole switching and draw/blow abd accurate bending. I've never tried them but I did the same thing when learning guitar like 15 years ago. What it did for me then was broke me from the habit of playing memorized patterns that always sound good and git me into more dexterity. Opened up new doors to stuff you wouldn't think to pay too.
Taza
4 posts
Feb 03, 2014
8:19 PM
Hey all-
(I'd posted this in the general forum before realized there was a beginner's only thread...)

I've been trying to nail down this wailing/falling bend but I can't seem to get it right, and am having trouble researching how cause I don't know what to call it. Jim Fitting uses it a lot in Session Americana- here's an example at 0:44:



Am I right that it's a 3draw 1/2 step bend, letting the note unbend, and then dropping down to a whole step bend before moving to the 2 draw?

Thanks!

Last Edited by Taza on Feb 03, 2014 8:30 PM
nacoran
7525 posts
Feb 03, 2014
11:07 PM
Okay, I'm going to break the rules since there was some wrong info in another thread. Taza, just to make it clear, beginners don't have to post in the beginner's thread. The beginners thread is a place beginners can get their bearings, but you can jump into the deep end if you want. The beginners thread is supposed to be a place where beginners can be supportive of each other.

Welcome to the forum.

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Nate
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Taza
5 posts
Feb 04, 2014
12:10 AM
Thanks, Nate.

I've spent the last 2hrs reading through this thread and should've done so before posting as I now realize it's not really a Q&A thing. Sorry about that- wasn't trying to steer this discussion in a different direction. Just an all around amateur forum user(now I know what "thread" means). :)

I'm really happy to come across this! I've been playing on and off for 2yrs and I'm not really sure of my level. I had a bittersweet beginning: was lucky enough to live in an area with a lot of great harp teachers, so started out taking lessons, but I got spoiled and now that I'm living in the middle of nowhere with no harp teachers, I'm having trouble making progress. Also I have serious performance anxiety. Even private lessons would throw me into panic sometimes. My eventual goal is to perform in public or at least with others, so seeing GK's video was inspiring.

I've found the book The Perfect Wrong Note by William Westney really helpful for performance anxiety (though I need to spend more time with it). It's written by a pianist, but I think it translates. Especially for anyone who's always learned to play music in a classic, structured way and is trying to make the leap to something as crazy as improvised harp.
MindTheGap
211 posts
Feb 04, 2014
12:38 AM
Hi Taza. The scarcity of local harp teachers is a common experience, and one of the motives for starting this thread. There are some great self-learning materials (that's why I'm on this website at all) but also a little support, encouragement and feedback can go a long way. To repeat and expand what Nate and Winslow said - if you want expert opinion or precise advice then the main forum is probably a better place to ask it, although according to the rules you can post here and invite the experts to comment. In fact, we haven't done much of that. If you want to post your thoughts, experiences, ideas, progress, encouragement to others etc. here - rather than just having to ask straight questions - that is very welcome.

I bet that performance anxiety is going to be an issue for lots of beginners - if you could write a bit about what you've found in The Perfect Wrong Note that would be interesting.
Taza
7 posts
Feb 04, 2014
2:36 AM
Gladly, MindTheGap:

I have a classical piano background which is why I might’ve gotten so much out of this book (but I managed to get through 12+ years of piano learning hardly anything about theory- which would’ve at least helped me with harp! argh). I’ve always been a perfectionist so I’ve done well in structured settings, like piano lessons, where it’s very cut and dry and the teacher is the clear authority.

I never realized my general performance anxiety might be so rooted in my piano past until my first private harmonica lesson. It was with a teacher who I’d admired for years and I couldn’t believe I’d scored private lessons with this dude. The first thing he said to me when I arrived was “Play me something.”… I was in total shock. I had no idea how to react to that! I’d never had a piano teacher say “Play me something.” Maybe they’d put sheet music in front of me and I’d stumble through a sight-reading, but never would a piano teacher ask me to improvise, or to even remember something I liked to play. The horrible thing was I’d taken group lessons and I DID know some licks, but I was in such shock I just rumbled off a few messy chords, and I guess a few single notes cause his less than enthusiastic response was “Ok good, you can play single notes.” Ughhhh.

Anyway, that kind of set the course for the rest of the lessons. It’s one thing to have stage fright but to even be too scared to perform during lessons, or to even focus on what the teacher’s saying? It was just too much. I googled “performance anxiety and music” and found The Perfect Wrong Note.

I think the most important thing that I got out of that book was just understanding how enmeshed my anxiety was with my perfectionism and how the structured lessons had made them both way worse. But I think even if you don’t consider yourself a perfectionist or haven’t had that structured past, those ideals are SO ingrained in American society in general that they’re going to plague a lot of beginning harp players. Some tactics for getting over performance anxiety:

*Put emotion into playing from the very start. (With piano, I was always taught to master the technique and THEN add emotion, which made music detached instead of expressive.) This is hard to do with harp, but I think it’s an interesting tactic. Yes you need a little knowledge of what you’re doing as far as movement on the harp, but when you’re first learning a lick, see if you can’t try to attack it emotionally instead of technically. Attack it hard and fast before going slow, switch the rhythm to suit how you feel about the notes. This puts the focus back on expression, and as important as technique is, it’s always the harp player who’s playing her soul out vs. the technically perfect player who’s going to catch your eye. It also just helps with confidence to remember the audience (maybe minus one crochety harp critic) is paying attention to expression.

*He talks a lot about “juicy mistakes.” There’s this fear that when we make mistakes they’re ingrained into our muscle memory, which makes us not give them their due credit. When you practice, don’t immediately stop and correct a mistake: make a mental note of WHY you missed it (overshot the note?) and go back to that difficult spot afterwards and work on it. (That’s a big one for me: now I’m at least confident that a wrong note won’t stop me dead in my tracks and I can move on.)

*Also, sometimes you just need to make some physical changes to make you feel more comfortable. One teacher or venue does not feel comfortable, but maybe another will be.

AH I didn’t mean to type a memoir/book review! That was a lot of description for things most of you probably know already. For the most part, I think it’s just one of those books- like most self-help books- where it’s the process of reading and relating to someone else’s story that’s the most healing.

Last Edited by Taza on Feb 04, 2014 2:39 AM
Gkastraveckas
19 posts
Feb 04, 2014
6:17 AM
Taza- I believe I misspoke on your thread when I said you HAVE to post here. It was more of a suggestion, I didn't mean to misrepresent anything.
Apologies
MindTheGap
215 posts
Feb 04, 2014
2:03 PM
Taza - Thanks for that! Re your experiences with the teacher, I'm not surprised. You are putting yourself on the spot, in front of someone you are paying to be critical, and you have something to prove. Definitely a recipe for performance nerves. Add to that someone you admire and well...

Re the book, that's new info to me. I do like the idea of 'adding emotion from the start', that chimes with something I'm working on now i.e. playing simple things with oomph, adding complexity later. It's all pointing in the same direction.

I'd like to find out what the 'juicy mistakes' idea is all about - I will need to get hold of the book rather than ask you type out any more. What I do know about mistakes (in any kind of performance and not just music) is that they matter much more to the performer than to the audience - a huge amount more in fact. I think in the hyper-critical atmosphere of a piano competition that's not quite the same, but in any normal performance it is. Keeping going is definitely the thing to do.
Mirco
90 posts
Feb 04, 2014
3:37 PM
Welcome, Taza. I'm glad that you found someone on the main forum that could answer your question-- seems like it's a 3, 3", and then a 2+. I wouldn't have been able to figure that out.

You mentioned that you don't have any local harp teachers. That shouldn't be an obstacle to your learning. Take a look at Adam's link to "harmonica teachers" on his main page. He has a list of teachers all across the US, and some are willing to do Skype lessons. I always recommend to everyone that they check out David Barrett's bluesharmonica.com for a really comprehensive study plan that will take you to a pretty advanced level. It's $17 a month for membership, but he has so many videos on the site. I also did a couple of Skype lessons with Michael Rubin, too. He knows his stuff.

Ultimately, if you want to get good, you need someone to monitor your progress and point you in the right directions.
Mirco
91 posts
Feb 04, 2014
3:55 PM
By the way, when someone asks you to play them something, what do you play? I'm interested in what other harp players use as their go to. I'm always wondering what to do in that situation.

I suppose it depends on the audience. If it's a teacher, such as in Taza's story, maybe something technically difficult, so the teacher can see your abilities. If it's a non-blues audience, I find that they tire quickly of bluesy riffs and they want more melody. For a blues audience, I have a couple of bluesy instrumentals I might tend towards.

What do you play when someone finds out you play harmonica?
Taza
9 posts
Feb 05, 2014
12:20 AM
Mind: Yeah, it's frustrating to be so hard on yourself when audiences are actually so forgiving! they either don't notice a mistake or skip over it cause they want to see a good show.
I listened to something you posted on the main forum (cadenza?) and think you've got the "oomph"/emotion with simplicity down solid. Emotion can't just be the fill, it has to be the base... I need to work harder at feeling each note.

Mirco: You're right about there being so many resources. I've been jumping around Adam's videos but wasn't ambitious enough to start from the beginning. A month ago, I found Annie Raines' YouTube lesson series (there are about 15 free vids, the rest you get from her site) and I found those lessons really helpful: a lot of it I knew how to do on paper, but within the videos she adds a lot of quick tips I hadn't heard of before, especially re breathing and specific phonetics that sound good with certain notes.
The thing is next week I'm moving to Africa for peace corps for 2 years- probably not many harp players there either, and likely no Internet! Any suggestions on THE lesson book to buy to get me through 2 yrs? (Actually, do David Barrett or Adam or any other teachers you guys know of mail old school DVD lessons? Maybe I could order a set quickly.)
MindTheGap
217 posts
Feb 05, 2014
12:53 AM
Mirco - Re what to play when asked, that's a really good point! I spend most time working on comping and specific parts for specific songs and they are not good for a quick 'play us some harp'.

In the UK fortunately there is an answer to this question: Charlie McCoy's Stone Fox Chase - the theme to the much loved music programme The Old Grey Whistle Test. Everyone knows it. More recently I've added a couple of rounds from Frank's harp boogie, which is wonderful. And then a scale run like that cadenza thing. What I've found is that many people - non-musicians but music-lovers - actually have trouble noticing that it's a harmonica even in songs they've been listening to for years e.g. When the Levee Breaks, Long Train Running, so they've not really heard this stuff. I think I was in the same position.
MindTheGap
218 posts
Feb 05, 2014
1:00 AM
Taza - ah, so you've just started posting and now we are going to lose you! If it were me I would stock up with Winslow's book and David Barrett's set.

Plus, you can buy all of Adams youtube videos as a download pack - the ones that are free to view I mean. I've done this and refer to them often, partly as a technical thing - it makes it more robust to stop/start/rewind and also so I have them for keeps. It's quite a body of work. This is the ultimate try-before-you-buy!
Taza
11 posts
Feb 05, 2014
11:38 PM
Thanks, Mind! I do have Winslow's book and Barrett's Improvising Blues Harmonica (I don't feel quite ready for Barrett's book yet, but I think low confidence makes it even more necessary to jump into improvisation). I will pack those. I realized that Annie Raines has an instant download lesson series, so I made a hasty decision and purchased it... I'll let you know how it goes!
BTW can I ask how long you've been playing? also, do you use TB? (sorry if it's been mentioned elsewhere in the thread)

Mirco: That's a great question, and one I should have a quick answer to after that experience! But it is tough, especially if you're asked to play by a stranger who's musical taste you have little knowledge of. I think my go-to is Sittin' on Top of the World. It's a simple, pretty melody which can be played as is or made more bluesy with some slight adjustments, and (in my experience) works well for both audiences. I have a Little Walter song that I personally love but yeah, when played for a non-blues audience they don't really know what to make of it...I blame it on the audience when it's probably me just ripping the song to shreds. :)
p.s. Neil Young's Helpless for folk fans, even though it's straight harp.

Argh, I really wish I would've started posting in this forum months ago... this is such a great community.
MindTheGap
223 posts
Feb 06, 2014
10:20 AM
Taza - I had a look at the Annie Raines site, that course does look very good. There are only short clips free to view, but that visual approach looks helpful. And it looks structured. The David Barrett books are great, particularly as references (Exploring 1st, 2nd, 3rd Pos) but don't have huge amounts of material in them. His exercise recordings are so perfect and the amped tone in particular so good that I find it a bit off-putting sometimes! I like hearing Adam playing in the front seat of his car, getting his collar felt by the law etc.

It will be my 2nd birthday this spring. I remember buying my first harp + instruction book from a shop in Oxford, and going to the park to try to bend a note. It can't be that hard, now can it??? :-)

Yes I both LP and TB, if you read above I recently found how to draw bend TB, so I'm enjoying that. I can't blow bend TB yet. BTW if you are thinking about asking about TB on the main forum, I'd suggest you have a search for some of the discussions first. You have been warned! :-)

Sittin' on top of the World, yes that's a good tune.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 06, 2014 10:21 AM
Mirco
92 posts
Feb 06, 2014
3:45 PM
If you have the Winslow book and Barrett's book, and you are still looking for something else, I might look at Jon Gindick's books. He explains some beginning theory in a really easy to understand way, and he encourages playing simply with feeling.

Please let us know how the Annie Raines stuff works out. I have tons of books and materials that I'm working through, but it's never a bad idea to know of some others.

My go to song would be "Rock Around the Clock". I downloaded Adam's lesson on it. It's catchy and easy, and everyone knows it.
Taza
15 posts
Feb 07, 2014
7:15 AM
Thanks, Mirco: Annie Raines actually mentions in one of the lessons that she started playing after reading Gindick's "Harmonica for the Musically Hopeless", so I'm intrigued. :)

Mind: ha, thanks for the tip about TB questions- I will do my research before asking in the main forum. i'd been asking questions in the harmonica reddit for awhile with few responses, so finally got up the nerve to post here.
Ah, the first bend! I was taking group lessons when I learned how to bend- was definitely the last person in the class to catch on (I blame it on asthma, ha), and probably only actually learned cause I also had Winslow's books/diagrams. Group classes were interesting but kind of tough to reteach beginners how to breathe.
MindTheGap
227 posts
Feb 07, 2014
7:40 AM
Taza - Yes indeed, the first bend! A life event to be savoured and remembered. I have to say mine wasn't in the park in Oxford, but, hmmm, 'some time later' while watching Ronnie Shellist. Thank you Ronnie. I have found that there are lot of things with the harp where the explanations only make sense *after* you have worked out what to do - you know, 'make the k sound like in the middle of Popocatepetl.'

Re your 'catching the note' question, I hear that move a lot. Also on the 2 draw, dip it down and roll off to 1D. That might be easier to get to begin with? These days I might TB the 4, 4' and then switch to LB the 3D. Then you don't have move the harp at all.
Taza
20 posts
Feb 08, 2014
4:11 PM
Mind- so true. I can't even tell you how many times I practiced saying Kay, Kah, Ku at different speeds and volumes to get my 3 hole bends! It's surprising how detached we can become from our own mouths and speech patterns. Hmm, I wonder if learning harp will be conducive to learning my new language? (in this case, it's one of those African languages with glottal clicks which is supposedly nearly impossible for English-speakers to mimic, but for harp players?….) :)
Thanks also for that suggestion… I just gave it a shot and it sounds much better than my rolls off the 4 draw. I'll keep practicing for awhile with this. Yeah, I wasn't sure if catching notes is one of those things that people tend to do more with TB. Is LB the same as lip pursing?

Last Edited by Taza on Feb 08, 2014 4:12 PM
MindTheGap
239 posts
Feb 08, 2014
11:39 PM
Taza - Re click-language, that's interesting. Where exactly are you going? Yes, you might found with you new conscious knowledge of making unusual sounds you can get on better with it. I read that we are born with ability to differentiate all the sounds made in all languages but after just a few months of listening to whatever will be your mother-tongue, we lose it and can only properly hear the subset of sounds from that language. You must report back - and a perfect opportunity to post a sound sample!

Ah, pursing and lip-blocking. There you go asking questions about embouchure :-) I do suggest you pour yourself a stiff drink and have a search through the archives. Also try searching for 'Tilting the Harp'.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 08, 2014 11:40 PM
Mirco
94 posts
Feb 09, 2014
9:46 AM
LB ("lip blocking") is essentially the same thing as lip pursing. Different people use different terminology for it. Semantics.

The idea is that, when you think you are lip pursing, your bottom lip is actually blocking the outside holes. So some people prefer to call it lip blocking, or LB. If they refer to it as lip pursing, it might mislead people who don't know what they're doing. It's not, as Adam says, "old maid lips". It's the correct way to achieve a deep embouchure and hit single notes, but without using your tongue.

JP Allen describes it in greater detail:
http://www.harmonica.com/single-notes-harmonica-4947.html
Taza
22 posts
Feb 10, 2014
8:38 AM
Hey Mirco, thanks for explaining that and for the link. Lip pursing definitely sounds like something that needs to be strained to be produced.

Mind (feels strange to call you MTG now, I'll start next post): the Tilting the Harp discussion was one of my first entryways into MBH! I saw JP Allen admonishing students to tilt the harp (45deg I think?) and was so appalled that I'd been learning for awhile and neither of my teachers had told me about this. I'd been holding it straight or even a little downward for so long. I searched and found the MBH debates and felt validated. :) The tilt helping embrochure makes sense, but not sure it works that well for me, although I'm still trying it out.
I'm going to Ethiopia! (In Philly for our big predeparture conference now and leaving tomorrow for Africa.) The first 2 months I'll be surrounded by other volunteers and living with a host family, so I either need to stop practicing or become way more confident about my playing... maybe confident enough to post a sample. :)
Argh, I hate the idea of losing the language abilities as a baby/it being my parent's will if I will be bilingual... I want to make that choice! (such an American)
I hope to have Internet/MBH forum access in Ethiopia for at least the first 2 months, so I'll post once things settle down a bit... I'm addicted to this thing!
Billfish89
2 posts
Feb 10, 2014
10:25 AM
Hi, my 2nd post so I'll try to drop into the context here:

Mirco: Re: what songs do you play for others?

- it depends on the audience. My Mom & others like "train" chord rhythms.
- Simple 1st position - Dvorak's "Largo" from David McKelvey's "Instant Harmonica" (Hal Leonard). It's 3/4 waltz time. you can play it pretty much in any position on the harp.
- yes, play "Oh Susanna," on more keys than C, like Bb or G.
- J. Geils/Magic Dick's "Floyd's Hotel", thanks to Adam's beginner lesson! - C harp.
- Lee Oskar's riff in "Low Rider",(C harp) "pazzmanmusic" & others have videos; good 2Draw bend practice at the end.

Harpcat -Re: playing for others:

I am rather shy about it myself. I think I need to work on the playing with emotion part as mentioned earlier. Family are supportive as long as I'm playing a tune and not "woodshedding". They like flute and clarinet, which is generally easier on their ears.
So, my typical audience is our dog and cat.
Dog is cool with anything I do, except 5 draw (C harp) and higher. he has howled a few times (which is rare) but stopped when I stopped playing those pitches.
Cat complains no matter what I play. I think it sounds like a rival cat to him!

Great Beginners thread by the way! The discussion on gapping and bending in Dec.9-10, Adam's video gussow.016, and Jason R's bending video are a big help.

I just finished up Adam's Beginners Deluxe package. Now working with the very cool backing tracks. Kinda in a holding pattern. perhaps I'll check out books? Gindick's or Dave Barrett's. Don't know yet..

Cheers, Bill

Last Edited by Billfish89 on Feb 21, 2014 1:16 PM
LumberjackShark
28 posts
Feb 10, 2014
2:03 PM
I love this thread....

Mirco: RE: Songs I play?
This is a great question, and one I struggle with. I also work a lot on comping, parts of songs and riffs. I find I only know very few real songs. Rock Around the Clock, and now Amazing Grace. This is such an issue with me because I really like all types of music, and am not just a Blues person.

I also warm up with scales and a few exercises I learned early from Adam. I'm getting the personal lessons now, which helps all around. But, I still have problems figuring out just how/what to practice. Anyone else have this?

BTW, I live in Sabine Pass, Texas (very southeast corner of the state, 60 miles up the beach from Galveston)
Mirco
95 posts
Feb 10, 2014
3:35 PM
Billfish: My recommendation is to go right to Adam's Advanced Beginner. The Gindick books are also good, and they're really written in a very accessible way. Barrett's stuff can be a little denser, so wait on that, unless you have some music theory in your background.

Lumberjack Shark: I really have no issues with knowing what to play. Generally, this is the way it will go (if I have an hour block to play):
5 minutes: warmup, playing something really easy for me (but still aiming for a perfect playthrough)
10-15 minutes: technique practice. Right now, this is the first position scale and hitting the right bends. It might be something like slaps or pulls, or octaves...
25-30 minutes: study song. I am taking lessons through Dave Barrett's site, and I always have a song I'm working on. But you could substitute an Adam Gussow song from this site.
10-15 minutes: improvising. Put on a jam track and work with licks pulled from songs, or licks I've written.
MindTheGap
249 posts
Feb 11, 2014
1:31 AM
Hi Billfish. We have a cat, but he's a real cool cat and shows no response to harp playing. I take this as tacit approval. I suggest you take your cat's response as active approval :-) Train rhythms are great, classic and unique harmonica sound.

Taza - Ethiopia! Well, you are about to enjoy one of the many special features of the harmonica: portability! And I guess you can just about squeeze the Fender Bassman in the overhead storage. I hope your host family demand that you play for them when you get there. You never know, you might walk in and find they have a stack of Muddy Waters records - these things do happen.

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MTG

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 11, 2014 1:32 AM
MindTheGap
250 posts
Feb 11, 2014
1:49 AM
LumberjackShark - How are those lessons going? Re practice I'm still chopping and changing. Sounds like Mirco has a good disciplined approach and that's got to be good.

Currently, I'm taking Skype lessons with the teacher I went to see in person last year. I'm experimenting with how to make that work best. So I'm working on a current thing (e.g. like my rhythm/pulse/groove at the minute) and playing the hell out of specific studies. I record them and put them on Soundcloud, then we go through them live in the lesson. He critiques them and demonstrates how to improve this or that. We've now got to a understanding where he is comfortable saying: 'that's not good, you need to do this...' rather than 'yes that's quite nice, have you considered...' :-)

My current thinking is it would be good to have a 'rudiments' study (see the Traverse 2 thread) like drummers have - you could start it with whatever level you have now and add in as you learn techniques. Then play it round and round with variations etc.

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MTG
SteamrollinStan
117 posts
Feb 11, 2014
3:51 AM
NEW JAM COMMENCED FOR learners and xperts, 'harmonica boogie.com' hope to hear some newbies there, if ya game!!
LumberjackShark
29 posts
Feb 11, 2014
9:30 AM
MindTheGap: The lessons are going well. I've just gotten back to this sight after being away for too long.... I've only done two so far (he is in Houston, so a bit of a distance [90 miles], since I work two wknds a month), but am about to do my third. He has me working on my vibrato, gave me some Blues players to listen to and a couple of songs to master (Amazing Grace being one.)

Mirco: Thanks.

I don't know about any of you, but I find myself working on playing parts of songs that aren't Blues songs (mostly for me, '70's songs and Honky Tonk Country). I try to work out the parts myself, since finding tabs for specific parts of a song are hard to come by. It is a struggle. Anyone else doing this?

Also, I want to find more riffs I can work on. Anyone out there got any suggestions? Might be good for everyone.

BTW, I really appreciate this thread. I find myself going to it first. Also really like and admire you guys posting your playing. I hope to do it soon myself.
LumberjackShark
30 posts
Feb 11, 2014
9:42 AM
SmokeJS just posted on another thread about this book:
Steve Cohen book/cd 100 Authentic Blues Harmonica Licks
Mirco
97 posts
Feb 11, 2014
4:11 PM
Lumberjack Shark: My riffs, thus far, are coming from two Jon Gindick books and from my studies with David Barrett. Don't worry TOO MUCH about learning a quantity of riffs. Worry, at first, about learning them well. If you can add one a week, and have it ready to go in your improvising, that will quickly ad up.

I am all for playing non-blues songs and riffs. I think too many of us stick to playing the same songs. Adam put it like this: if Little Walter were alive today, would he be playing the same stuff? Maybe we should be playing something that moves the instrument into uncharted territory, something that would make Little Walter say, "Hey, that's interesting."

Speaking of the pets, my dog howls along as I play. At first, I thought it might be hurting his ears. But, if it was hurting him, he would run away. I think I'm connecting with him on some deep animal level. He thinks I'm the alpha wolf communicating with him.
Billfish89
5 posts
Feb 12, 2014
1:30 PM
Mirco - Thanks for the tip on Adam's Advanced Beginner pkg. I plan to do this in 2014. I've seen some of Jon Gindick's videos they might work for me too.
MTG - The train rhythms are fun, but challenging... Adam's free lesson and Jason Ricci's YT video are great resources. Generally speaking, chord rhythms make the music for me and I'll spend more time there.
Shark - Try Ultimate Guitar or Chordie for guitar chords of songs to sort out on harmonica. It's a start anyway.
It appears the dog and cat are fine with the low-end of the harmonica (as long as they got their food 1st!)
MindTheGap
256 posts
Feb 13, 2014
2:01 AM
For reference, for future beginners who come across this thread, and with his approval, here is Frank's essay on...

[Beginners] Musical Training Wheels EXPOSED

I invite Frank to join any discussion on this topic!

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MTG

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 13, 2014 2:04 AM
Mirco
101 posts
Feb 15, 2014
8:22 PM
How do I know when it's time to replace my harmonica? The first good harmonica I ever bought-- a SP20 in C-- is not responding as well as it has in the past. The 6+ takes more effort now.

This harp is about 1.5 years old, and I play probably an hour a day (but I use other keys, too).

Do harmonicas "go bad"?
MindTheGap
266 posts
Feb 16, 2014
12:24 AM
Mirco - this is definitely one to throw out to the experts.

From all I've read, they do go bad: metal fatigue makes the reeds go unresponsive, flat or simply break off.

I've not had that happen yet, but I play gently. From what I know about metallurgy, for some metals there is a stress limit below which metal fatigue will never set in - i.e. the thing will last forever! For other metals e.g. aluminium alloys, there is no limit and even the tiniest repetitive stress, applied enough times, will cause it to fail. I don't know about the alloys used in reeds.

Again, from what I read, it's the lower reeds that fail more often e.g. the 4-draw. But I defer to the experts here. Just to say that my only personal experience of this is a friend the other week had a harp that he was convinced had failed in this way. Then he took it apart and found the reed intact but unplayable, gave it a clean and a ping, and it worked again. So we don't know what it was.

BTW did you read the outcome of the discussion about this beginner's thread? The idea is to start new threads starting with 'BGT', so they can go in the main forum and be commented on by all.

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MTG
SmokeJS
225 posts
Feb 16, 2014
4:54 AM
Seems I also missed the message to start threads with BGT. A good idea. Remind me what BGT stands for? Also, given it's likely many members of the forum won't have paid much attention to this beginner thread how will they know the meaning nd intent of BGT?

Last Edited by SmokeJS on Feb 16, 2014 4:55 AM
MindTheGap
269 posts
Feb 16, 2014
7:35 AM
Smoke, yes indeed. I'll write something when I get a mo later on. To be clear, there is no rule, anyone can post where they like. Just a helpful guideline.

BGT = BeGinner's Thread. BGT doesn't get any hits if you search for it currently, so it will be a handy way to group things for free. Just like you can do with OT: at the moment.
john_blues
1 post
Feb 20, 2014
8:44 AM
Hi fellow blues harp beginners,

I'm pretty new to the blues harmonica, having played my Special 20 for only 2,5 months.
Most of the time I use Gussow's free and premium lessons to learn how to play harmonica, accompanied by Winslow Yerxa's "Blues Harmonica for Dummies".

The only subject I needed some more help on, which might not surprise you, is (draw) bending. While a lot of lessons focus on this technique, it caused me a lot of effort to get the 4 draw bend going. Right now my 4 draw bend is sounding about right, but I'm still working on the other holes.

There is one essential question which keeps bugging me:
How much should the sucking power increase to achieve and control a drawbend, compared to a regular draw note?

Some say there should be no difference at al, draw bends should be done only by changing embouchure. Others (including Adam Gussow I think, in one of the premium lessons) mention that you might need more drawing power for a good bend.

In my first attempts to bend, I noticed some kind of bend when sucking really hard and changing my embouchure just a little bit (on the 1 draw).
Later I found out it's possible to bend the 4 draw with much less power, but it's still taking more power than a normal draw.

How do I recognize if I'm using to much force (and I might damage my harp) or if it's just a natural increase, essential for bending?

Thanks in advance!

Last Edited by john_blues on Feb 20, 2014 8:45 AM
MindTheGap
288 posts
Feb 20, 2014
9:19 AM
Welcome John Blues.

You've come at a good time, I see you found the beginners thread! What we are trying right now is for beginners to post in the main forum, starting the topic with 'BGT' to flag you are a beginner, so experienced players can join in and tailor their advice accordingly. So if you repeat this post there, you will get the best advice.

e.g. BGT: How much power needed for a bend?

This is a really great topic though for learners, and everyone will go through this. Allow me to give my 2 cents worth, as someone who has been through the bending learning curve recently.

When I started learning to draw bend, it needed a lot of force. But as I got better, it needed less and less until it's basically the same as an unbent note. However, there is a feel to it, what Adam calls the 'bending energy' - and I agree that is what it feels like. It feels like you are reaching in and grabbing the reed so there is a kind of springiness or resistance to it. It varies from hole to hole, and harp key to harp key.

Now I know it's hard to explain, but with all things harp, I've found that the explanation only makes sense *after* you can do it. But at least you can recognise when you got there!

So, I learnt to draw bend with a lip-block embouchure a couple of years ago. Just recently, I've been doing it tongue-blocked, and you know what - I went through *exactly* the same curve: first needing a lot of effort, then less and less. I reckon I'm about half way there now - it's like experiencing someone else learning.

One more thing, I've been working a lot on tone, and if you play a single note, unbent, with a good tone (which means rich harmonics), you get a very similar sort of 'energy' i.e. you get a lot of note for your draw and you it feels like you are gripping the reed. Less air, more sound.

This is my personal experience, the experts will give you the real info!

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MTG
Mirco
109 posts
Feb 20, 2014
11:08 AM
MTG hits the nail on the head here. Bending is a technique that takes a lot of time and a lot of reps-- 1000's of reps, probably. But until you have the technique refined, you'll need more effort and drawing power (just as Adam says in that video... for the 4 bend, if I remember).

My best advice for someone trying to learn bending is:
Some holes bend easier than others. For me the 1 and 2 were the easiest. For you, it might be different. Find the hole that you can bend and work out from there. If you can already bend the 4, the 3 and the 5 are only a subtle difference. Start with your strongest bend and work out from there.

And be patient. If you practice every day for 10-15 minutes, it'll still take months. But you can get there. Welcome to the forum.
john_blues
2 posts
Feb 20, 2014
12:08 PM
Thanks for your advice MindTheGap and Mirco!

At least I got the 4 draw (mostly), so that's giving me extra motivation for the other holes.
If I use too much excess force in the reps and it would cause damage to the harp, I guess a replacement wouldn't be too hard to afford.

BTW, Next time I'll ask my question in a new, tagged, forum thread. I noticed this thread being inactive and all, but it seemed the most favourable place to ask a beginner question.
MindTheGap
289 posts
Feb 20, 2014
12:40 PM
john_blues - I remember watching the Ronnie Shellist 'how to bend' vid, trying it and thinking, how on earth...???

I learnt my bending before I'd read all the stories about breaking reeds, but I never did break one. Perhaps if I'd have known...:-) Even if I had, it would have been worth it. It's possible you only damage reeds when your bending is strong enough that you can really lean on them?

I still enjoy the physical thing of bending a note more than anything else in playing harp - a deeply satisfying bit of magic that never pales. Going through the process again tongue-blocked has been a joy. I often just play up and down e.g. the 3D bends for it's own sake.

As a beginner, my questions are often about how to get from A to B. E.g. you hear a technique but what do you have to practise to get it? With this one, for me and Mirco by the sound of it, it was just simple repetition and trying to hit those notes just so.

There is a lot of great advice on this forum about learning bending and all it's features, from some highly experienced players and teachers, so I really must defer to them - if they want to comment please do.

One of the things we said we wouldn't do so much is to tell people to 'go and search the archives' but I do think it's worth it here. Ideas include: playing well-known tunes that need bent notes, scales, using an electronic tuner, sitting at the piano checking your intonation...

Anyway, keep us posted on your progress. Feb, 4', Mar 3', Apr=2''.. :-)

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MTG
SuperBee
1691 posts
Feb 20, 2014
2:04 PM
A lot of draw bending is about how you hold your mouth. Ok, that's kind of a joke, but in this case it's true. If you try to bend draw 2 on a F harp the same way as draw 2 on a A harp you will get a dreadful squawking noise, or no sound, or no change. It amazes me how we learn over time to adapt without a conscious process, but that's the human brain for you...truly creatures of habit
Anyway, bending is a lot like whistling, or singing, or throat singing. It's about controlthe shape of the vocal tract. And breathing. Actually, all harmonica playing is about this in the note-shaping aspect of playing.
But...bear in mind I'm only a mediocre player , and I've only been mediocre for a relatively short time . I spent decades as a dreadful player.
I learned to bend by myself, then refined it some playing songs and some exercises and advice from (Australian) pro, Jim Conway. Then listening to Gussow lessons. then TB bending with video lessons from David Barrett.
But some private lessons with 'a teacher' made the most difference. Now I can play all those draw bends TB and glissando from top to bottom, play the arpeggios in five positions. I'm not saying I'm perfect and hit them all on pitch every time, off the bat. Although I'm usually within 20 cents if it's in context of a song. But the practice is ongoing
So...what did 'a teacher' do that helped?
if I tell you the approach it may help?
First of all, we worked on an A harp. I played an A harp so much for about a year, I feared I'd forget how to play other keys. Baseless fear. Don't worry.
The first project focused on the first two holes. I spent a fortnight learning to bend the 1 hole 'to the floor'. He wanted me to get the tuner to show I was bending the 1 draw (B) beyond Bb and into sharp A territory. That is, bend it more than. 50cents flatter than Bb.
I only ever managed 50 cents., more like 40 cents.
But then he wanted me to hold it there as long as I could.
We did a lot of exercises around this. Going gradually to the floor, going straight to the floor and letting it up smoothly.
This was the 1 hole, but he also had me practice this on 2 and 3. The emphasis was about getting right down, holding it there and having control to be able to go straight there, or gradually and smoothly go there, and be able to let it up with no jumps.
If there was a jump, a point where the tuner needle went straight from one place to another, he would have me go to that place and work through it and learn that control.
At the same time (I mean during this lesson phase ) he was asking me to try to play the note sharp. This was part of learning to play with vibrato. So draw 2, no bend, and then work at getting it to go up in pitch. This exercise is hard to describe, vibrato was one of the first things we worked on, (simultaneous with bending, and breathing) and it's possible to get a draw reed to play sharp with a vibrato exercise which teaches about opening and closing the throat...and holding it in the open phase will give you an elevated pitch ... This is all about learning to control the shape of your vocal tract and it's similar to what harpdude is talking about with 'throatbending'. Related, anyway.
All these exercises feed into the process of taking control of the bends. Once I could bend from top to bottom and back, smoothly, then we started working on stopping in particular places to be able to play in tune. Those exercises abound, and they are all good practice, getting the pitches in your mind and being able to hear. You can read about that. the difference for me after working this way was that I had developed control to be able to make use of the exercises.
Prior to this I used to do all those exercises but it was all fairly hit or miss. If you keep missing, what are you practicing?
That's pretty cool when you have all those notes reliably at your disposal. I really love that 2 draw half step. Opens up the 3rd pos arpeggio, 5th pos arpeggio...
Ok, long post, from non expert. Hopefully there is something valuable in there. It cost me enough...
john_blues
3 posts
Feb 20, 2014
2:29 PM
I'll try not to worry too much about breaking or damaging the reeds.
Fear can be a burden indeed, when trying to learn something new.

Thanks for the warm welcome and your good advice.
I'll keep you posted on my progress ;)
johan d
10 posts
Jun 23, 2015
3:53 AM
How do I learn to sound vibrato on an draw (or exhale) single note. What do I have to move in my throat? What do i have to articulate?
Many thanks

Last Edited by johan d on Jun 23, 2015 3:54 AM
MindTheGap
620 posts
Jun 23, 2015
9:32 AM
Johan - Well done finding the old Beginners Thread! As you can see, it's been out of action for a while, because everyone discussed it and agreed that beginners would get the best answers posting questions in the main area. So post with confidence!

To answer your question, there are millions of resources on vibrato, and I'm sure you'll get lots of advice here. I'll just point you at one of Adam's videos. The reason I like this one is that he explains how he practiced the technique, rather than just showing you where he ended up. That's especially good.

Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 23, 2015 9:33 AM
MindTheGap
621 posts
Jun 23, 2015
9:40 AM
...and at the risk of sounding like a stuck record - Blues Harmonica for Dummies does have a very good section on the terminology, types and mechanics.


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