Grey Owl
367 posts
Oct 11, 2013
8:04 AM
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On Frank’s post on Lee Oskar, he posted a video entitled ‘So much in love’
I was trying to figure out what harp Lee was using and guessed at Ab which seemed to work except that there was an Overblow required that Lee wasn’t playing and I was having to play a whole step bend on 3 draw, which didn’t sound like what Lee was doing.
Martin & Wheel put me right saying that Lee played an Eb Melody Maker tuned Lee Oskar Harp.
That got me thinking about alternate tunings. Years ago I bought a Lee Oskar Minor tuned harp which took a little getting used to and I rarely use it these days.
Does anyone else use alternate tuned harps.
1. How quickly did you adapt to the new tuning?
2. Have they become a replacement for the Standard Richter for you?
3. Do you only use them as occasional break from SR and if so how easy do you find it too switch back and forth with different tunings.
4. What are your reasons for playing a song with a different tuning
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This has probably been posted before but is a neat idea. The following site generates the list of notes on a diatonic harp for any key you choose to select, not only in standard Richter but a number of alternate tunings. It also indicates all the overbends. You can choose to display either the draw notes on top or the blow
Harmonica Note Layout generator
As a quick exercise I looked at the note layout for the Ab I was using on Lee’s song and then the Lee Oskar Eb Melody Maker and then tabbed out the first few notes of the song. This may be old hat to most of you but it was interesting that the Eb harp is tuned for playing cross position so the notes are pretty much the same as an Ab harp (except draw holes 5&9 raised a semi-tone and blow 3 dropped a whole step) (also the pitch of the 2 harps sounds the same as the Melody Maker doesn’t sound as high in pitch as a normal Eb)
So these are the holes and notes played on both the Ab & Eb MM. THE ONLY EXCEPTIONS ON THE Eb MM AS INDICATE IN RED.
-4(Bb)-4(Bb)-3(G)-4(Bb)+5(C), -4(Bb)-4(Bb)-3(G)-4(Bb)
-4(Bb)+5(C), +6(Eb)+5(C)-4(Bb)-3(G)-3**(F) or (+3(F) on Melody Maker –MM)
This phrase repeated 3 times.
-2(E)gliss-(-3)G-4(Bb)+5OB(D) or-5(D on MM)-4(Bb)-3(G)-4(Bb)
-3**(F) or+3(F)on MM-3(G)-3**(F)-or+3(F)on MM-2(Eb)+2(C)-2(Eb), -3(G)-4(Bb)-3(G)
You can see from this that the 5 overblow is not needed on the Melody Maker as you can just play draw 5 and the double draw bend on 3 is not needed as you can just play blow 3.
I have written this out partly to reinforce it for myself and others may find it helpful too.
Here are the charts for the two harps with the altered notes coloured.
Time to buy some more harps? :)
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Oct 11, 2013 12:44 PM
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Frank
2980 posts
Oct 11, 2013
8:09 AM
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If you are playing songs/chord changes etc... that would benefit greatly from using Altered Tunings - then you will probably have a blast using them to create music with :)
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barbequebob
2352 posts
Oct 11, 2013
8:16 AM
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Put it this way. You have options that often times the different positions really won't allow you to have regardless of how well your bending and overblowing techniques are, and in some cases, chording you may not be able to do and certain phrases will play out much easier in some of these tunings than on standard tunings and vice versa. The most common alternate tuning is the country tuning, which gives you a whole different set of options with the smallest learning curve. Some of the other tunings will require more of a learning curve because if you don't know your theory very well, you can get lost and you REALLY have to know where you are on them 24/7.
For different music genres, many of these tunings can be awesome. The note gnerator link comes from Pat Missin's site and if you take the time to learn where everything is (and too many harp players FAIL to do that), you can get more musically flexible.
Guitarists use alternate tunings all the time and the most common are open D, open E, open A, and an unusal one that Albert Collins used was open Dm.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
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CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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isaacullah
2539 posts
Oct 11, 2013
8:26 AM
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these days I am almost exclusively playing alternative tunings, especially considering all my "normal" richters actually all have that modified 7 draw. Most of my songwriting is happening on my "Modern Pentatonic" (search the archives) and Dorian layouts, although I'm right now working on some songs in the Easy Third layout. I've got some songs on the Natural Minor layout too, which I really like for harpboxing. In general, I find that alternative tunings are really nice way to get tuneful songs, and to have a different sound than the rest of the pack. I have a minimalistic playing style, and I find that some of the note arrangements in these alternative tunings turn that into a real strength.
A few months back, I conducted a survey on alternate tuning usage among harp players (I used this forum, Harp-L, and Facebook to advertise the survey). Here is a link to the original survey form, and here are the results of the survey.
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Last Edited by isaacullah on Oct 11, 2013 8:28 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
259 posts
Oct 11, 2013
10:26 AM
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My Biker Bar Harp Player style does not respond well to note relocation, but that has not prevented me acquiring a box full of minor, melody maker, and my own chop shop harps. All for the day when I really learn how to play.
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Martin
485 posts
Oct 11, 2013
11:48 AM
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1) Kind of right away.
2) Nope.
3) Yes; and quite easy. (A bit like tunings on the guitar.)
4) "Take five" becomes immensely more playable on a minor tuned harp (only one passing OB needed), and you can play it correctly and go up on the 2nd theme and not stay in the first octave like you tend to do on the Richter.
I own a couple of MM and one minor harp, one or two country tuned by myself. Very rarely used, for inexplicable reasons. (Puritanism?)
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wheel
254 posts
Oct 11, 2013
12:31 PM
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My opinion is - try diminished tuning! You can't play a lot of chords (probably all chords are weird :) ), but you can easily play in all 12 keys only with 1 or 3 harmonicas :)
1. After 1 evening I can play Georgia easily.
2. No, it's an addition and possibility for me to play chromaticaly.
3. It's not hard and you start play more free on Richter.
4. If song fits for it. In terms of mellow tone of some notes of song or melody.
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1847
1187 posts
Oct 11, 2013
1:02 PM
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grey owl
do you play the harp upside down?
william clarke did.
you have the ob's above the draw plate
i''l have to print it out
so i can make sense of it
perhaps you are in australia?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Aussiesucker
1336 posts
Oct 11, 2013
1:04 PM
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I have a range of tunings ie Harmonic Minor, Natural Minors & Melody Makers. Apart from using standard diatonic tuning I now often use the Major Cross/ Melody Maker Tuning. This tuning is basically a combination of Paddy Richter & Country tuning.
When I play Bluegrass, Country & Gospel I use the major cross/melody maker tuning a lot. I now retune my own harps as Lee Oskar does not offer a complete range of keys. Also I found that the Lee Oskar C & D melody makers are based on original tuning of Low F & G hence I had to retune a Hi G (D) & an F (C) in order to provide me with a harp that can cut through when playing with others.
It is a great tuning that IMO is very much underestimated. The 1st pos play is also great for minor tunes. Eg a normal C harp when converted to MM tuning is no longer a C harp but a G in cross harp. A complete G major scale is available when the 5D is raised a semitone to F# negating the need for a 6ob. Ist Pos play is Am(d). The biggest disadvantage is in having to double up with harps ie I mainly use standard diatonics as well for 1st, 12th, 3rd, & 5th pos melodies & some 2nd for some melodies but also for back up chords.
I'm a big believer in keeping things simple. I also never use tabs but prefer to noodle find my way around a harp. I found the MM tuning really simple to adapt to.
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Aussiesucker
1337 posts
Oct 11, 2013
9:05 PM
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Just want to correct what may be misinterpreted eg I said that the complete G scale on a MM tuning was available as the 5D is raised a semitone to F# negating the need for 6ob. It is actually the 5ob that is negated.
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HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
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Grey Owl
372 posts
Oct 11, 2013
11:32 PM
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Thanks for the feedback guys, very interesting. I think I will try and retune one of my old harps to MM and give it a go. I don't know why, because I have already learnt to play LO minor tuning, but I'm intimidated by learning other tunings thinking it's going to take too long to pick it up.
1847 The layouts above are the default views on Pat Missin's site and are not my preferred view either. I did notice after preparing the charts that there is an option for selecting a different layout view.
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Oct 11, 2013 11:34 PM
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Gipsy
32 posts
Oct 12, 2013
12:24 AM
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The Hohner harmonic minor tuning makes most anything played in first position sound as though it comes from Eastern Europe or the Middle East. It also allows easy playing of Sosban Fach the Welsh folk/rugby song. Not very important for most peeps, but useful down here.
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GMaj7
297 posts
Oct 12, 2013
1:00 AM
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I like the thread topic line..
I think the case for altered tuning can be made simply because
many musicians - probably harp players more than any - play with a certain amount of muscle memory. We all have those canned licks that we just sort of play 10,000 times every time we pick up a harp.
Altered tunings - even if we don't use them in performance - help us re-wire our brain. They give us a new sound when we fall back into the familiar.
Great topic!
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Grey Owl
374 posts
Oct 12, 2013
4:35 AM
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Thanks Greg.
Altered tunings - even if we don't use them in performance - help us re-wire our brain. They give us a new sound when we fall back into the familiar.
That's a good point Greg, hadn't thought about it like that.
I guess we have all been there, delighted one minute to play a sequence of riffs and end up getting bored to death with them and end up in a rut.
Never tried the harmonic minor tuning Gypsy, sounds exotic:)
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Oct 12, 2013 4:37 AM
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nacoran
7223 posts
Oct 12, 2013
4:39 AM
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I've played solo tuned tremolos, and back on the diatonic side, I've played minor and harmonic minor. I love minor and harmonic minor. Even when you aren't playing chords the tones seem to sound sadder (maybe it's nearby reeds resonating a bit, or maybe it's just the echo in your mind from the last chord you played. If I'm stranded on a deserted island, I want one standard tuned harp and one harmonic minor, a fishing pole and a mermaid, and I'm good. (Lots of stuff that sounds good on a minor sounds even better on a harmonic minor. I've found a few exceptions, but not many. St. James Infirmary sounds great on either one.)
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GMaj7
298 posts
Oct 12, 2013
5:46 AM
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I am so much a fan of altered tuning that I have an extremely liberal return policy on them.
In other words, if there is something a player has always wanted to try, I'm usually willing to allow them to return after purchase for a credit if it isn't their thing.
I think Seydel with their consistent slot length design and configurator tool has made it easier for players to experiment
Altered tunings are the future for harp players and I credit Brendan Power for the popularity of them and they are popping up on stage more and more every day.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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nacoran
7224 posts
Oct 12, 2013
5:45 PM
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Another fun thing about altered tunings is sometimes muscle memory actually works backwards and you get something that sounds totally awesome out of something else. I wish I had the recordings handy. I've got a little jig I wrote on D/E/F (I switch harps during the song- the perils of not being an effective overblower). When I got my first harmonic minor I didn't really have many songs to play on it (although Fiddle on the Roof and Fagan's theme from Oliver work nicely) so I was trying old riffs. Turns out, my jig sounds even more awesome in harmonic minor. The first couple times through it was tough, because I'd play a hole and expect a different note, but after about 5-10 minutes I got it, and it's now my show piece when I play open mics. The thing that makes them easy is, if you think about it in terms of scale degrees, I IV V, they are all sort of in the places you are looking for them, they just sound different. The minor pieces I play, I probably use altered tunings on 75% of them. The chords are just so awesome. Even chugging takes on a new life.
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Nate
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Aussiesucker
1339 posts
Oct 12, 2013
6:10 PM
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Nacoran, I have a couple of Harmonic Minors & you have renewed my enthusiasm for them. They have been untouched for a couple of years but now trying them on again there are some nice fits.
I love altered tunings plus different harps ie chroms, tremolos & octaves. They are all great and provide alternative sounds plus help maintain enthusiasm & interest in playing as I do go stale quite often. As they say 'a change is as good as a holiday'.
Also being an ear player I don't and really can't use tabs or read music, so I find that adapting to different tunings / layouts is no big deal.But at times I'm accused of having selective hearing and I just brush it off and say I'm improvising!
I used to play Natural Minors a bit but now (laziness) just use the diminished tuning available on melody maker tuning, or more often use 3rd & 5th on standard tuning.
Whenever I get asked about alt tunings I advise to stick with standard 10 hole diatonics until one is comfortable in their playing & would like to venture further. I tell them not to expect tabs to be available so they need to be able to work things out for themselves.
HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
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Grey Owl
377 posts
Oct 13, 2013
10:52 AM
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Anyone tried 'True Chromatic' diatonic harp tuning and if so have you got a favourite song/songs to play on it.
I've got one to try out and it sounds pretty nice. Interesting chord sounds. Draw/Blow Bend layout allows for draw bends from 1 to 10. It's already suggested new phrases for me which is encouraging.
I have tried playing a few common melodies and they work well in the middle octave without overblows but using 5 draw bend on occasions. OB's are available as well though.
Picking it up pretty quick so far so will have to persevere and train the muscle memory.
Blow C,Eb,G,Bb,D,F,A,C,E,G
Draw D,F,A,C,E,G,B,D,F#,A
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Oct 13, 2013 10:53 AM
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