easyreeder
409 posts
Oct 09, 2013
8:14 AM
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Questions for the experienced customizers:
When it comes to over(blow/bend) the performance difference between OOTB harps is striking. That's been discussed before, but it would be interesting (and I hope helpful) to see a summary from people who know how to adjust harps for that technique. So, three questions:
1. What brand/model of harps do you consider beyond hope when it comes to over(blow,draw)?
2. What brand/model do you consider the easiest to set up for the technique?
3. Have you ever encountered an OOTB harp that didn't need ANY adjustment to work well or OB's.
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isaacullah
2534 posts
Oct 09, 2013
8:35 AM
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1) Lee Oskar, Bushman Delta Frost, Huangs (These are not really totally beyond hope, but I've found them not particularly good for it). I also don't like Hohner MS series for OB setup.
2) Hohner Marine Band, Special 20, and Golden Melody, and Seydel Session Steel and Solist Pro.
3) I once bought a Seydel Solist Pro that overblew like a dream right out of the box.
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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jbear
39 posts
Oct 09, 2013
8:39 AM
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I hope I am not unwelcome as I'm not an experienced customizer: but I got a set of 6 Seydel 1847's and they OB out of the box without any problem. They're more expensive than any of the models you've mentioned, though.
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harpdude61
1858 posts
Oct 09, 2013
8:39 AM
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what Isaac said. I've tried them all and as many have said here, GMs with basic gapping overblows pretty darn well.
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arzajac
1172 posts
Oct 09, 2013
8:40 AM
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Would you please specify whether you mean overbends as passing notes or overbends as sustainable and bendable (up to 5, 6 or more semitones)? They are two completely different things.
For overbends as passing notes:
1 - Any harp made in China.
2 - They (the rest) are all pretty much the same.
3 - Yes, but it's quite random. There is no brand of harp that is properly adjusted for overblows/overdraws as passing notes every time (or even most of the time) It's luck.
For overbends as wail notes:
1 - Lee Oskar, MS series, the cheaper Suzuki harps (Harpmaster, etc)
2 - Maybe not easiest because that's not the best reason for picking them for overblow harps, but certainly has the most potential: Hohner Marine Band series (1896, Deluxe, Crossover, Golden Melody, Special 20 - all have the same reeds.)
3 - No. Never. Ever buy a car that could fly?
(edited for a million typos)
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 09, 2013 8:45 AM
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STME58
553 posts
Oct 09, 2013
8:47 AM
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I don't overblow well, but key seems to be as important as brand. I find higher keys easier to overblow. Is this a coincidence of the harps I have, or are higher harps generally easier to overblow?
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harpdude61
1860 posts
Oct 09, 2013
8:51 AM
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arzajac...lost me buddy. I can gap a OOTB GM and use overbends in a run or as a bendable(up) passing note. I have bought custom harps from 3 different guys and none asked me for the specifics you describe.
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harpdude61
1861 posts
Oct 09, 2013
8:54 AM
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STME58..IMHO..closed, tight, bend from the front of the mouth players have an easier time OBing on high harps...as a throat player I find the 1 overblow on a G harp and the 7 overdraw on a high F about the same difficulty..with everything in between easier
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arzajac
1173 posts
Oct 09, 2013
9:21 AM
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Harpdude: Most harps can be set to make an overblow pop out. That doesn't make it an "overblow harp" where you can wail, add vibrato and bend the pitch six semitones. But, of course, a harp that can do that can also play the note as a passing note.
Is that what you mean?
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 09, 2013 9:22 AM
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harpdude61
1862 posts
Oct 09, 2013
9:28 AM
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I C
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Buzadero
1150 posts
Oct 09, 2013
9:43 AM
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For what ever it's worth, every Firebreath that I have ever purchased worked like a charm straight out of the box. That is not to infer by any stretch that it was even close to a harp tweaked with the love and intimate massage techniques of one of you guys that work your magic, but they did everything I asked.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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HarveyHarp
527 posts
Oct 09, 2013
11:37 AM
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@Arzajac. Any chance you could post a video or audio Of you showing what an overblow of 6 semitones sounds like? I certainly can not do it, but I don't make overblow harps. Curious minds want to know!
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HarveyHarp
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MP
2961 posts
Oct 09, 2013
12:32 PM
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I don't make OB harps either. I have replaced a reed on a Buddha harp that was obviously an OB set up. Lotta work on my part to get the new reed to match up with the rest. PITA. :-)
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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harpdude61
1863 posts
Oct 09, 2013
1:06 PM
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I can get 4 semi-tones on a few overblows on select holes of select harps...why? beats me? I can't do 6 on any
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Todd Parrott
1160 posts
Oct 09, 2013
1:33 PM
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Harpdude:
This came up on an Indian Harmonica Facebook page recently and I think it has to do with the gapping. Tinus chimed in and said that it is sometimes possible to bend an overblow up entire octave, which I have also found to be true on some harps, though not always very useful.
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easyreeder
410 posts
Oct 09, 2013
2:13 PM
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@Todd
Do you turn a different shade of blue for each semi-tone?
;-)
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arzajac
1175 posts
Oct 09, 2013
2:57 PM
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"Any chance you could post a video or audio Of you showing what an overblow of 6 semitones sounds like? "
Sure! I'll post something in the next few days.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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easyreeder
413 posts
Oct 10, 2013
3:53 PM
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@Arzajac
Not sure I know what you mean. To me, an overwhatever that you can't hold and control misses the point. But I'm not adept at them, which is why I'm asking. I'm working on it and wondering if any of my boneyard harps are worth the trouble of trying to adjust.
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easyreeder
414 posts
Oct 10, 2013
4:12 PM
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@issac
I tossed my Delta Frost into the "don't even bother" pile after my first attempt at an overblow on it. Cats were dying up and down my street.
No mention of the Manjis.
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arzajac
1176 posts
Oct 10, 2013
6:17 PM
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"Not sure I know what you mean. To me, an overwhatever that you can't hold and control misses the point."
I had been kicking around the idea of making a YouTube video around this. And I plan to do just that. But in the meantime...
From the consumer's point of view, the problem with custom harps is that unless you already have a harp from that customiser, you don't know exactly what you are going to get. Harps from most of the top customisers have their differences.
A common trait they all have is the wide gap between a regular custom ("all-purpose", "blues setup", "stage one", etc...) and the top build (commonly called "overblow harp")
If it were clear-cut that the only difference between the two harps was the ability to play overblows, we would be done! But it's a lot more interesting that that. The fact is you can play overblows on all of them. Not to mention, you can make just about any harp play overblows - what's important to know is the quality of the note.
As you say, if you can't hold the note, it's of no use to you. Some may agree with you, while others only need the overblow on 4, 5 and 6 to pop out as passing notes. Some may want added expression and want the overblow/overdraws to be bendable and still have nice timbre - sound as rich as a regular draw bend.
In a text from Filisko from about 15 years ago, he mentioned that Howard Levy could play overblows on his harps and bend them up a semitone or two. That was a long time ago. I think the reference standard for "overblow" harps has been the ability to bend overbends a lot more. I aim for six semitones on my top harps. I know Joe Spiers recently posted he commonly goes beyond that. Todd Parrott mentioned that Tinus Koorn can push it to a full octave!
That's pretty extreme considering it's doubtful that you can hit a note bent up so far with any precision. Kind of like the bends on the high end of a Marine Band 365 - there are 6 semitone blow bends on holes 13 and 14, but forget about ever using them!
But to a large degree, the more you can bend an overblow up, the better it will play and sound in the range where it will be most often used (zero to 2 semitones bent). So that extreme bending is a sort of objective measurement of performance (and not much else).
That objectivity is very much needed, in my opinion, because although an "all-purpose" custom harp and an "overblow" custom harp are very different, if your only criteria is the ability to hit overblows, then the result is a confused consumer. You know the top harp must be better because of the price tag. You know that that's the result of a lot of work, but how do you figure out which is best *for you?* If you want to buy a custom harp and can afford the most expensive ones, that may not always be the best thing. An overblow harp is built for overblowing and is completely different from a custom harp built for playing blues.
Now don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there is a conspiracy going on to dupe customers - far from it! The top customers will have a detailed conversation with their customers and provide them with the harp that's best suited for each of them. That's the "custom" part of "custom harp". All I am saying is that these details are not necessarily common knowledge unless you have gone shopping and spoken with someone who builds harps.
"But I'm not adept at them, which is why I'm asking. I'm working on it and wondering if any of my boneyard harps are worth the trouble of trying to adjust."
Well, if your expectation is a sustainable note, my answer as I posted it earlier is completely different than if you only wanted OBs as passing notes.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 10, 2013 6:19 PM
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arzajac
1177 posts
Oct 10, 2013
6:27 PM
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I feel the need to point out that I am making sweeping generalisations and oversimplifying the work of just about every customiser I know.
I encourage everyone to not take my word on it and have conversations with the harp customisers and let them speak for their own work.
I felt the need to shed some light on the topic and get the conversation going because I feel there is a lot of assumptions and a lack of common definitions when we talk about "overblow" harps.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica servic
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SergZZZ
92 posts
Oct 11, 2013
10:51 AM
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Recommend for high keys to use a model of harmonics that have a variety of gradations of the lengths of the reeds and sizes combs. This of course harmonica MBD or Crossover. Long or short depending on the key. This is important not only for overbends. For high harmonic need a short tabs and a small volume of input camera holes. For ordinary keys harmonics model selection is less important.
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www.ermonica.com
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arzajac
1183 posts
Oct 14, 2013
2:27 PM
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"Any chance you could post a video or audio Of you showing what an overblow of 6 semitones sounds like? "
I shot a video that included a comparison between out-of-the-box harps, all-purpose customs and overblow harps (with bent overblows). I mentioned reed profiling in there too. It was way too disjointed, so I just recorded an audio clip with my phone.
Here it is.
This is a Bb Overblow harp in production. It is far from done and has no wax to help make the note more stable. All this harp has so far is reed work and heavy embossing.
The unbent 6-overblow on this harp about 20 cents flat of Ab. Six semitones up from that is D, which is the same note as 8 blow. In the audio clip I play the 8 blow first to get the pitch into my head. Then I play the 6 OB and bend it up.
I aim for an Overblow harp to be able to play a bent overblow 5-6 semitones before I consider it ready to go. Will someone ever play that note as an overblow in a performance?
No!
What's the point, then? Well, without an objective way to assess performance, how can you know what you are getting?
It follows that the higher you can bend that note without it falling of or squealing terribly, the better the overblow will sound in its more-often played range - usually bent up a maximum of 2 semitones in a performance.
This is not the best measure of the quality of a harp, but all the other qualities are hard to measure or even put into words. So for now, this is probably the most obvious way to determine the level of performance of an overblow harp.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 14, 2013 2:27 PM
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arzajac
1184 posts
Oct 14, 2013
3:40 PM
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Here's what I mean about any harp being able to play overblows as passing notes:
This is a Lee Oskar harmonica.
This is a Lee Oskar major diatonic harmonica in C that I am servicing. It only has reed work and light embossing. Any decent harmonica can play overblows as passing notes if the reeds are properly adjusted.
By overblows as passing notes I mean that the note is not held or bent. You cannot play this note with expression or use effects such as vibrato. You can simply hit it.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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Todd Parrott
1161 posts
Oct 14, 2013
10:36 PM
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"Will someone ever play that note as an overblow in a performance?
No!"
Hmmmm.... not too sure about that, arzajac. :) Ever heard Sam Friedman play live? That guy does some crazy stuff. But I would agree that bending an overblow up that far, or farther, is not very musical sounding. Good for special effects maybe. I bet it would sound cool through some type of effects pedal. I do bend the 6 overblow up to the same note as the 8 DRAW, and that sounds pretty cool in some places.
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HarveyHarp
532 posts
Oct 14, 2013
11:21 PM
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Andrew, maybe it is just my computer, but I could not play your audio clip
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HarveyHarp
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arzajac
1185 posts
Oct 15, 2013
7:28 AM
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"I do bend the 6 overblow up to the same note as the 8 DRAW, and that sounds pretty cool in some places."
Yes, but you are Todd Parrott.
This reminds me of a recent thread where someone mentioned that there were only a handful of people in the world who could play the chromatic scale on a diatonic harp. I mentioned while that may have been the case ten years ago, I believe the number is much much higher now.
Is there a parallel here? Is crazy bent overbends becoming commonplace? Maybe.
"I could not play your audio clip"
It's an mp3 file. Maybe your browser doesn't know what to do with it. What happens if you right-click (or long-press, triple-tap, etc...) to download the file and then try to play it from your computer?
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 15, 2013 7:29 AM
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tmf714
2106 posts
Oct 15, 2013
10:05 AM
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tmf714
2107 posts
Oct 15, 2013
10:07 AM
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tmf714
2108 posts
Oct 15, 2013
10:09 AM
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