1847- If you can get away with using a 5 watt amp for gigs,more power to you! I think you're the exception and not the rule. In the world I live in,-full band,live gigs- a 5 watt amp is only good for a doorstop.
1847 - Well firstly Adam is only doing a sit in spot with that band. He's a guest before or after his own performance. The sound man knows that he has to get him up in the mix and the band are playing sympathetically. Those things combined are allowing him to cut through the mix. That's not your average gig scenario.
Secondly no one to my knowledge said "a small amp would never work" I certainly didn't. What I did say was the following: "Adam plays most of his gigs either solo or in a duo setting. So that allows him the luxury of using small amps to create his sound. If he was playing with a full electric loud band, where you often struggle to be heard (or hear yourself) I'll bet you a pound to a penny he wouldn't be letting that little Kay amp do most of the heavy lifting. He'd be using that Bassman amp of his for that job." I stand by that comment. If Adam played most of his gigs (the lions share) with a full loud electric band he would use a bigger amp.
Here's a clip of Adam using a Bassman (his own I believe), which is next to Jason Ricci's Egyptian Bassman with a full electric band.
Something else you also have to bear in mind is that in both clips the bands are very harmonica friendly and play accordingly. That isn't normally the case with most bands which tend to be a lot more guitar focused. Do you really think that a 5 watt amp would cut it with a band like Walter Trout's for example?
If you find that a 5 watt amp works for you then great. keep using it. For most players though it simply doesn't work. Most situations require a player to have a bigger amp to enable them to hear themselves onstage and therefore be able to play dynamically. That is one of the reasons why the '59 Bassman is such a popular amp for harp players. It allow players to do that. Personally I play direct into the PA these days and therefore avoid the whole "what size amp do I need?" scenario. It makes for a much easier life.
Last Edited by Kingley on Sep 21, 2013 9:52 AM
i have used it without a mic in a large room, but the band had to co-operate it is pretty damn loud. no reason especially if you are running the jam not to be able to mic up an amp.
check my post re: the hughes kettner amp i clearly state...no monitor..no speaker strait to the p.a. the one way out clip, is clearly mic'd up in the video clip i said the sound man had me so loud i could not turn my amp up
i said i have used it with out a mic but i qualified it by saying "if everyone co-operates
ricks response was....Sure, I'd mic it up if there was time.
that is at a "harp friendly" jam that is not full co-operation... it's not going to work i'll be right back, i have a bassman and an anti feedback pedal in the car. and that is at a harp friendly jam most jams are not near that harp friendly lol
rick further stated i could set my little amp next to his bassman
sorry if we are going to have a shouting match i will lose that battle , so what I would do in that situation is this
First I would give all the band members $100.00 dollars Then I would take another 5 one hundred dollar bills and tear them in half Explain if they turn down when I solo They can have the other half
I would put my amp right on top of your amp, and after you have played every thing you know… I would have the band turn down……way way down And I would play one note…just one note…9 blow and I would hold it Walk out on the dance floor and lie down… slapping my hand on the ground like I was out of breath and hold just one silly note till the crowd goes ape shit. Then I would eat your bacon and eggs, pet your cat Drink all you pink champale Smoke your shermans…………. Where the %$^# is fred Gomez when you need him? lol ….Then head off to vegas pawn Every thing I own, put it all down on the Oakland raiders to beat the broncos on Monday night 9-23-2013 Then use the money to buy the eminence speaker company And discontinue the little buddy speaker line.
1847, that clip you posted of "One Way Out"... was that a blues jam or is that your band?
Dude, it is not a shouting contest, it is a tone contest. I think I understand why you don't realize that.
Busy jams are there to make money for the venue, something else you don't seem to realize. If you sound like crap I'm going to get you down. If you require a lot of hand-holding for your bedroom amp to be heard you are not a good jammer. You are welcome to come and play at the jam. I think it might be an educational experience for you.
I'm glad you are happy with your Champ. I don't think I've ever met a harp player as Champ-happy as you. I have a Champ too, and I dig it. I've played it at gigs and jams. I have no problems admitting it's limitations.
Okay, 1847 - So now you say ya gotta be mic'ed up and the other players need to "co-operate" which I guess means play really quiet when you can't keep up. The story changes.
Here is the deal -- If you use a bigger amp you won't be so needy and you can take control of your own performance. With a bigger amp you are not FORCED to play louder than your bedroom amp, but the potential is there if you want to.
Hiya Superbee,its a combo not a head,don't know what version it is and don't know what iv'e started on the forum by asking about the amp! Where do you stand on whether you can gig the amp(mic in PA) or not?I couldn't do a mod myself but like i think Kingley said its a great amp to learn basics on so who knows as the dark nights draw in! Would the tone + give you the same control as a treble cut ( seen on ebay) to be honest at the moment iv'e got a new toy and it seems very loud and dirty,the bands like it,my back likes it and i only brought it because players on forums raved about it and the VHT Special 6 doesn't come up on ebay in the UK any where near as much!!!!!! but it does seem very loud
my story has not changed.. i never disagreed with any thing you said except....YOU CAN GIG WITH A 5 WATT AMP!
you have Not read my post see the hughes and kettner post watch the video, play it full screen you will see a red fireball in front of the amp, read what i wrote about the sound man... please.. then scroll down and read where i say i have used it in a large room with no mic.
On the Harp-l list, a member has recommended a Whirlwind Director DI box to use as a line-out from a speaker output jack. I assume that you would run a cable from a speaker output to the DI box, and then a cable to the PA. Is this correct? Has anyone tried this?
Yes, any DI box that's capable of speaker value signal can serve as a line out. I just posted the Whirlwind as an example. Run one of the speaker jacks into the input of the DI, an XLR to the PA, and you have a line out. One thing I forgot to mention on HarpL was that depending on the DI box, you may have to run an extension cabinet of impedance that matches the jack you use on the VHT. Otherwise, it can damage the output transformer. But some boxes have a power soak that allow you to forego that speaker. One would just need to consult the given DI box's specifications. ----------
OK, Tim, I was fine until you said "you may have to run an extension cabinet of impedance that matches the jack you use on the VHT." Since I don't know what a extension cabinet of impedance is, can you tell me if the Whirlwind Dierect DI Bx will work, and which speaker outlet on the VHT should be used?
Stokeblues, its easy to tell the difference between the versions: if you have 3 output jacks on the back of your combo, it is a version 3. Version 3 also is the only one with the 16 ohm eminence Lady Luck speaker. Version 1 and 2 can be quickly distinguished by looking at the front panel. If the horizontal stripe and logo 'valve junior' runs across the middle of the panel, through the input jack, vol knob and power switch, its version 1. If the stripe and 'valve junior' is at the top of the panel, above the features...version 2. Electronically, version 2 and 3 are most similar, and much better than v1. I believe the v3 transformers are different to the earlier versions but I don't know if they are better. Also, the first four digits of the serial number represent the month and year of manufacture. Version 1 was only produced in 2005. Dunno about the tone+ but quite possibly a good solution. My take on giggability of the amp is that everyone is really furiously agreeing about it. It's possible but risky. In a known and controlled situation you can get away with it. I use a twin 8" cab with mine which I think cuts and projects a little better, but beware of the situation where you have to turn it up so loud it sounds (as so wonderfully expressed above) like a kazoo. If you can run it through a bigger speaker it will project better. If you can mic it or run a line out, there won't be any problem making it loud in the FOH mix, it's stage volume which is the concern. If you can get it away from loud drums, up on a chair or otherwise up closer to your ears and away from interference from competing loud sources, there's a chance you'll hear it. But you don't want to have to get the lined out signal coming back to you in the monitors. Line out is better than miked in this sitch, as one less potential feedback source. I used to try and situate off to the side of my amp so I could hear it but not have my mic pointed toward it. And get away from the drummer, and the mandolin amp...etc. But it all depends. Loud, or LOUD, or deafening... My 30 watt 12" combo is way louder than an epi combo, but I've had gigs where it was virtually inaudible on stage. I gig my epi, but they are duo gigs, or outdoor gigs where the drummer is using only a snare. As far as mods go, that is one of the beauties of the epivj. There is a lot of info about the epi circuit, it's modern, relatively simple. I'm no expert, just a mug learner. But I learned a lot from this project...starting from a very low base of knowledge. I'm still a mug but I know more now than I did then. The epi is an ok project to do as a novice I think. Just take it steady. Draw it, photograph it, keep safety your number 1 thought...that was easy; staying alive is good incentive.
Hi Superbee,its a version two, 05,05 on the serial,i seem to get as much volume before feedback out of the EVJ as i do out of my 65 watt amp,perhaps the big amp needs a re bias to get its potential,the gigs iv'e done have only been in pubs with about 30 people in,although i have done 2 big outside gigs 700+ folks there and i used my marshall 30 watt solid state mic'ed up and it was no problem. I hear what people are saying that as good and as loud as it is there's gonna come i time where it ain't gonna cut through and i'm gonna be fooked and none of the big boys use a small amp!!! Got the harpattack but i don't like it that much ,just got feedback early on,i use a pe54 mic,is it cuz i need a di box with it (KINGLEY).The last info about staying alive being a good incentive i agree but watch em fall out about that on this thread lol!!!! cheers everyone mark
Last Edited by stokeblues on Sep 22, 2013 12:16 AM
Stokeblues - The PE54 is a great mic and should be serving you well. Try using a DI box with the Harp Attack and use the -20db pad switch on it. Also if the PA has a pad switch on the channel try using that. Set the controls on the PA as follows. Bass = +1, Mid = 0, Treble =-1. Then set the Harp Attack as follows: Volume = 12 O'clock, Tone = 9 O'clock, Drive = 9 O'clock. That should get you in the ball park area of a good sound. Then just season to taste. Other things to bear in mind are keep any harp in the monitors low, stay behind the main PA speakers and make sure you've got a good cup on the mic.
The Epi Valve Jr is a good amp to learn playing amplified on. It has no tone control so the sound is all you. It teaches you how to cup well and the difference cupping makes to the sound. The VHT is a far better amp (in my opinion) and is a great platform for someone wanting to learn how to modify amps. Due to it being point to point wired
Ok, Rick, so bringing small amp to a gig isnt very good idea, if you mic it - that will cause feedback problem... but what about building a line out in it? There's a vht blog (can't remember who is author) that explains how to do that... Could that solve a problem with "not gigable" small amps?
Rarko - The VHT blog you refer to is by Jim Rossen. The line out that Jim talks about is great and works really well for duo/small low volume gigs where you need a little more volume via the PA. The inherent problems though of using a small amp with a full loud electric band still exist. Generally speaking in that situation it's better to use an amp that is at least 15 watts (25-50 watts is even better). Otherwise you'll struggle with feedback, hearing yourself and cutting through the mix.
Rarko - The cheapest option is a vocal mic direct into the PA. In my opinion if you have the chops that's a great way to go. If however you crave more distortion in your sound then the Harp Attack or Harp Break are good choices for that. They don't sound exactly like a good valve amp, but they do get pretty close to it. A DI box is always a good idea, as some PA systems don't have pad switches and can create problems with pedals.
Stokeblues - I'd say any decent mid sized Fender amp is a good choice. Princeton Reverb and Pro Jr are good choices. You already have a Harpmaster 100 though I believe so why not just use that?
I know there are a lot of folks the play straight into the PA. The Lone Wolf products seem to optimize this technique. As a jammer, this is not an option for me. I bring my own tube amp that is matched to the venue. Big soft rooms/outdoors get POWER. 50W +. Big hard rooms get less power. 30-50W Just work this ratio as the room size decreases. Accoustic gigs with hand drums only get 16W or less depending on the room. Yes, I do use small amps live, at times. Small hard room, accoustic. I usually go with a stereo setup at these with a stereo delay pedal spliting the signal. Great sound, maybe the best...
Also, at jams, the board is usally full and the guy running it has no idea what electrified harp should sound like and where and when it should sit in the mix.
Stokeblue, There is no one amp that will cover all the basses. They are tools and you need a box full of tools to fix anything! If you want a recomendation on a specific amp that works well for harp without mods, is vintage, light weght, will cut in a mix and is reasonally priced. Check out a Lectrolab R500c. At 16W, when all tuned up, these things kick ass. I love mine and it gets a lot of praise. These run EL84's, I think the "B" model uses 6V6's. The 500, 600, 700, and 800 series all have about the same power amp, just different bells and whistles. Just don't sit on it as the cab is made of Homosote. Happy sunday all...BN
"I know there are a lot of folks the play straight into the PA. The Lone Wolf products seem to optimize this technique. As a jammer, this is not an option for me."
Barley - Can you enlighten us as to why is a mic direct into the PA not an option for you? I'm a jammer too and that's the option I use over 95% of the time. A mic direct into the PA is easier than using an amp, far quicker to set up and you'll always be heard.
More OT .... There are several advantages of a large amplifier. The volume from the stage is an advantage if you do not have a PA system. The large amplifiers have a solid ground in the sound that is hard to get up in small amps. That's a good reason to lug a big amp. Most prefer to mic up the amp through a PA anyway. To be sure that the sound should reach to all corners of the room. They think of quality in the sound. Not even a 100W covers as much of the room as a PA system. PA system often have speakers higher up and distribute the sound better that way.
Kim Wilson has found a solution with 2 x 60W available to get around the world in which he tours. One way to ensure that he has his sound wherever he is independent of the voltage that is in wall outlets or other local variations.
A 5W is very dependent on how it is for the musician to hear it. It can never reach any corner of a room without the help of a PA. If you like the sound of it and hear yourself, it's the two main components. Get yourself to a good microphone to mic up yourself and be able to invite the audience on your beautiful music.
In the Swedish harp convent we A/B/C test 3 VHT's at the same time. One had Jim Rossen mod and a Lil' Buddy, one had a Alnico magnet mod and a Weber A125O sspeaker and one was a stock. The stock VHT was the amp the visitors on the convent liked best. But the most peculiar thing was they did almost sound the same. I could get my "Arnenym" sound out of all of them.
Put in a 5751 and a good 6V6 and enjoy your VHT as it is..
Last Edited by arnenym on Sep 22, 2013 7:35 AM
Hi Kingley,the harpmaster 100 that i own is solid state and from the 90's,nothing to do with the ones available now,its ok but very heavy ,not that loud ,feedbacks a problem with my pe54 so i fell outa love with it,for the right person it would be a cracking amp but i'm not the one!!!Infact my Marshall lead 30 which is solid state is louder and dirty and only has 3 dials(simple hey)When i stated that my 65 watt valve amp which is a proamlifiers vsq65 with a 12 inch celestion speaker was only as loud as the EVJ i was very wrong,had all the amps lined up earlier to give em a blast and the proamp in the clean channel was really loud before feedback and with the octave real dirty ,also the tone+ sounded good with it.Then i tried the EVJ which is loud but when you use the harp reverb then the sound seems much bigger again,so i kept switching from clean to reverb and it seems the harp reverb makes the little amp seem far louder(any one found this?) its all been interesting but one thing that has been constant for me is how good the EVJ sounds ,like Arnenym says you gotta invite them in
Yes, the one way out track was recorded at a jam 2 guitars bass drums and keyboard it is a medium size room.
The last time we jammed there Someone comes up to me He tells me I am too loud I was using my bassman I am thinking to my self, who the heck are you? Turn’s out he was the soundman. I didn’t know we had one. Lol so I go home and listen to the recording and sure enough I am too loud. so next the month I show up. I walk in with my champ and introduce my self and explained how last time I was too loud, so I brought a small amp, I hand him my fireball to mic the amp, and he tells me, nothing goes thru the pa except vocals! So I hand him the mic and explain, mic me up If everyone cooperates then just leave me turned off , I will be happy, if they do not cooperate And start blasting away, I leave it up to you, if you think I need to be louder, turn me up. If I am not loud enough, I will bring my bassman from here on out. As you can hear it is a good mix, I guess he would rather me not bring a big loud amp…
So I am am standing next to my amp and right next to the p.a. speaker no monitor, I can hear just fine, thinking this is going to be awesome, when the guitar player, steps up to the mic and the mic holder malfuntions now I am in the way. No problem I have a wireless mic I’ll just stand over there center stage. So once they fix the mic, the sound man see me in front of the monitor and he starts to crank me up Thankfully I have a volume control. Lol.. you can hear on the recording a little bit of feedback in places, things do not always go as planned
Ok, barley necter mentioned using the right tool for the job, and that is the point I am trying to make.
Unless you are the host band “A JAM IS NOT A GIG” it is a jam, and if anything can happen it will! If you have a gig, someone paying you to play in their restaurant, they may not want you blasting away, they will not invite you back, if it is an Italian Restaurant, they may just pop a cap in your sorry ass.
Today is the jam once again at the same place, I plan on bringing the champ, chaining it to the Hughes and kettner “ice creme and cake” umm!
Totally agree ... 5W and 8" with a (normal loud) band? No way. Sure, maybe the amp is extra harp friendly and can really be cranked with no feed back ... but how will it sound in comparison with the rest of the band? Like a wasp's nest ... or like a Japanees 100cc Yamaha next to a Harley. You can get loud but you can't get volume. And yes, hopefully the stage volume on the band ( drums ( guitar)) is moderate. With a larger amp with more speaker area you move more air ... you get more Volume in the word's true meaning, not just louder. I have an Epi 3, with three speaker ext. in the back ... 4, 8 'n 16 ohms. At one gig I did an experiment and ran the housed speaker plus two cabinets ... nothing through the PA. The Epi back and center and one cabinet on each side of the stage. During the gig I walked out on the floor and listened and it was ok. Not louder but more volume and like Arnenym mentioned, the sound had more spread. Same on stage. Didn't know if the Epi could handle all three speaker jacks beeing used at the same time but it could. Will I use this set up again? Of course, at smaller venues. Otherwise my Gibson GA-90 or my DeVille(which K.Wilson has played:-)) is my pick.
---------- The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on Sep 22, 2013 11:15 AM
some things bear repeating...see killer slow blues thread
1847- I think your tone and playing are very good! What gear are you using here?
5 watt fender champ 8' speaker plugged straight in no effects no kinder pedal. 5751 preamp tube the amp sounds even better with a 12 ax7 i hung a fireball over the speaker ran it thru the pa
Hey if Wilson has played it then i'm not worthy,Wilson and BUTTERFIELD are the source man,the thing about the wasps cracked me up man,its like thats me- i'm wasp man blues,amazing!!!! any body in the uk got a VHT for sale iwanna be like the bees next , is any body else tits off with this spam code its everthing twice!!!
Last Edited by stokeblues on Sep 22, 2013 12:08 PM
Stokeblues ... I copy the text, refresh the page, paste and enter capchas ... just in case of gettin' timed out. Another way is to enter capchas before timeout and then use the edit function (which has no timeout) Cool that I didn't bug you with the wasps ---------- The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Barley - Can you enlighten us as to why is a mic direct into the PA not an option for you? I'm a jammer too and that's the option I use over 95% of the time. A mic direct into the PA is easier than using an amp, far quicker to set up and you'll always be heard.
Kingley, Mainly because I don't like it. Also, at jams, the board is usally full and the guy running it has no idea what electrified harp should sound like and where and when it should sit in the mix.
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Sep 22, 2013 9:37 PM
here is a fender champ in action at the hohner booth to boot. no mic on the amp the drummer is pounding away. but the amp is not being drowned out. ---------- some folks... if they don't know you can't tell'em
Good demonstration of the kind of levels you need for it to work. The tambourine is cutting pretty well too.. I'll have to look again...you sure that's a champ? Looked a bit large for a tweed champ..(edit: well of course it is...famously...ok, i learned something) Look how close the people are sitting. It isn't very loud. I can see the drummer looks vigorous at times, but if he was hittin em like Bicket those nice folks wouldn't be sitting there. And...it's the DM/hohner show. Of course they are taking account of how loud he is. If they wanted to, if they didn't especially care about the harp player, that band could drown him out I expect. Those are the boxes you gotta tick. Even now, with me as the frontman and in a band with a bass fiddle, those guys will drown out my Princeton if they get excited. I'm using the DeVille again when we play indoors. Last time I had to turn the Princeton up too much to hear it and it was too dirty for my taste. ----------
Rarko, a line out on a small amp helps a lot because it removes one big source of feedback potential: The mic in front of your amp. It can pick up the harp signal from the monitors, which are often nearby and pointed back toward the amp. With a 5-watt amp the real problem is hearing the amp on a loud stage, so the monitors might be necessary. It can be a tough balancing act, and a jam host may not have the time or inclination to fiddle with it.
But a line out is not a perfect solution. As another forum member pointed out, you will be at the mercy of whoever controls the mixer. He probably doesn't have a clue as to how to trim and EQ the channel for good harp tone. Flat is not always the best setting.
Important tip: If you choose to bring a small amp be nice: You are asking other people to indulge you. A good attitude gets you a lot farther along.
As you can tell from this thread, most of us who have been doing this for a while have learned that it is better to have some control over your own performance. Sometimes a Champ will get you there, but not usually. You don't have to lug around a Bassman, but you are likely to have a better experience if you have an amp in the 15 to 30-watt range.
Small amps are terrific for practice, recording, and solo/duo gigs in small venues like coffee houses. But they are not really the best amp at a typical jam or in a crowded noisy blues club.
When I play my 15-watt Mission Delta Sonic I always line it out to the PA, never send any of it to the monitors, and I can always hear myself via the amp. It has great warm tone and a natural crunch. It is my favorite amp right now.
If I think I need more volume or I won't be able to line it out I use the 35-watt Mission Chicago 32-20 or my Bassman, which I played last night.
If the only amp you own is a small 5-watter, I suggest you get the line out and polish your communication skills to deal with the sound guy and the other players. You will need their cooperation and support.
on e of my favorite places too play is in the bathroom lots of flat tile surfaces has a nice reverb i remember i would run my marine band under the faucet i could stay in there an hour. across the street was a parking structure same effect the harp sounded alive. there are several places here in town were bands play that have that cavernous sound to them, works great for acoustic harmonica but for a loud band it does not work at all.. the cantina lounge was like that another one is bliss 525. some of the bands come in there with fifty or a hundred watt amp, the sound bounces around like a ping pong ball someone will have a hard time hearing themselves so what they do is turn up, someone walking thru the front door will usually scream ” fuck this is loud", but no one can hear them.
so what is the solution? everyone use a smaller amp bliss 525 had a band there, the mama's boy's they had that gig for years every sunday, they would also play sometimes during the week. they had that gig because they sounded awesome the harp player jonny mastro used a small fender amp, not sure what model but a 10 inch speaker maybe 10 watts . he did not mic it up no one is suggesting that a small 5 watt amp can be used everywhere under all circumstances, but you would be suprised how often it can be used. it can also quite effective when mic'd when all else fails a bassman is the way to go. all amps have their strength's and weaknesses yesterday i crashed my friend's band rehearsal, i walked in with my 5 watt hughes and kettner ran a line out , very nice sound. i think i have some of it on tape. i'll have to post that later on the hk thread
Do you really think that a 5 watt amp would cut it with a band like Walter Trout's for example?
walter trout is a local, he use to hold court at perq's for like 20 years, and why yes i have played with him. it was only once a very very long time ago my good friend felix flanagan played with him for years he is a monster,should see some of the set up's he has used lol
I use 2 champs on stage run in stereo for gigs. I like a distorted aggressive bright sound. The brightness helps me cut through. I turn up 3/4 volume and abuse 'em no feedback issues. No mics on the amps. the guitarist uses 68 super reverb. I have bigger amps don't need them. No problems hearing myself. If I mic the amps, nothing in the monitors. The members of my band play as a team, we are loud enough for the clubs. Its just respect for your bandmates, and their hearing. I haven't gone to a jam in years, most of the guys there are just there to stroke their own egos and be the loudest person in the club. No harp amp could keep up with that while giving good tone. No fun, not worth my time or hearing. I'm lucky with tastefull players in my band. If you don't know the volume control goes to the left as well as the right, I'll find someone else.
