Aussie- It's Eminem! His movie, 8 Mile, was actually pretty good. Tori Amos does a really creepy cover of his Bonnie & Clyde '97.
He is a skinny white kid, by the way, but somehow he has 'cred' as it were. I can never tell if he buys into his lyrics or if he is a much more clever deconstructionist than he lets on.
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2010 8:32 PM
I'm convinced Eminem's tongue is very firmly planted in his cheek and he is - no doubt about it - a very intelligent man.
Anyway to move the discussion on and back to the blues - rap/hiphop connection (and it was the mention of "8 Mile" that did it) What about the 'cutting heads' thing? that kind of competitive, musical showdown is big in the blues (and blues influenced rock) and in hiphop. I know it's there in other genres too (duelling banjos springs to mind as do the Jamaican MCs and toasters) but in hiphop it is a really big part of the movement.
Anybody know what the middle-age white male reaction to Blues music during the 1950s was? I suspect it was called "misogynistic race music crap". I imagine mainstream white America complained about the syncopated rhythm, sexual innuendo, and unintelligible, self serving lyrics. Maybe in 50 years, a group white middle-aged males will hang around on a website called "Modern Old-School Hip-hop" where they celebrate the contributions of Run DMC and L.L. Cool J and post video of themselves mixing old-school beats on their I-phone turntable app and post threads about wether or not its cliché to wear a Kangol to toe open mike slam or when the next MOSHH get together is! Doubt it? I bet my grandfathers doubted Blues would last another 50 years. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 3:25 AM
@Aussiesucker: Allright... I guess I read your post as kind of personal attack on me and MRVLUN, but you've cleared that up. No hard feelings! I suppose it's mainly because we had both just made posts about how we feel one should not make blanket statements condeming the whole genre, and then you did just that... plus, we've been on the defensive here, pretty hard core.
Actually, that's interesting to me. I am not a big hip hop fan. In fact, I probably don't like more hip hop than I do like. I kind of get that vibe from MrVLUN too(but I don;t want to speak for him). So it's kind of strange to me that we two have been kind of forced to advocate for it. I think Stickman there basically summarized the sentiment that I've been trying to put forth. Hip Hop is the current stage in the evolution of "young peoples music", just as Jazz, Big Band, Blues, Rock, Punk, Metal, etc. have been at one point or another. As such, there is a lot of stuff thrown into the mix that is pure pop and aimed at making money. Contemporaneously, these pop offerings tend to eclipse the music and musicians at the heart and soul of a musical movement who innovate and lead the way forward. Many times it is only in retrospect that we appreciate or even just learn about these musicians and their music (just like we are all doing now with the Blues.) In my viw Hip Hop is no different, and as fans of music, especially as fans of African American music, we ought to keep an open mind to it. We ought to accept it as the progeny of the Blues music and culture we love so much (however illegitimate an offspring we personally find it to be).
And to somewhat belatedly answer Honkin On's original response to the video's I posted: well, yes. I kind of do feel that those examples speak to the fact that Hip Hop really has nothing at all to do with gang culture. It was appropriated by gang culture, much in the same way that Punk Rock, Hardcore, and Metal have been appropriated by racist Skinheads. Hip Hop originated from the Black house-party scene in New York in the late 70's. The DJ's who spun the records at these party were playing mostly R&B songs. They found that they could manipulate a track, and make it play longer, repeat a section, make cool scratchy noises, etc. by fooling around with the records as they played on their turn tables. They also incorporated spoken call and response to the dancing audiences (MC'ing) to at first get their audiences in the groove, and then eventually it became part of the deal (rapping). This call and response to the dancing audience has DIRECT roots in delta jook house blues dancing. The blues singer/guitarist at these establishment would lead call and response "conversations" with his dancing patrons, in an effort to heighten their experience and build comradeship and enjoyment. It is a direct evolution of this practice from which hip hop sprang. The DJ's replaced Blues guitar with R&B records, and eventually would make new songs by sampling more than one these records at a time, adding some drum tracks (first by beat-boxing, which originated on the street, and then by drum tracks, and eventually real drums),a nd talking over the track (first by MC'ing, and then eventually introducing simple rhymes until real "rapping" emerged). The music was always "urban", but it wasn't until more than 15 years after it's inception that Gang themes became prevalent in the lyrics. It was originally just dancing music, and remains so, a it's core, to this day. ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 9:11 AM
Thanks for the "evolution of hip-hop" lesson. You learn something new every day (well, I try to at least). I don't like listening to it any more than before, but at least I know what people who claim to be rap/hip-hop purists are talking about now. It seems to be a recurring theme.
When I said I hated disco I didn't mean ALL disco. As everyone knows there's good and bad in every genre. For example when it comes to disco I DO like..
....er........uh......I do like..........The....
...er
never mind, I'm sending myself to the penalty box.
Honkin on... That's all we was tryin to do with this thread! Thanks for being a good debater and a good sport! :) It was actually cool for me to delve into the research... I actually like reading through a bunch of rap lyrics and looking for blues connection... I was actually a little surprised to find as much as I did...
"i have been known to dance badly to it at weddings"
That's why musicianship is dominated by men. We can't dance.
The lyrics were one thing but condensing the evolution of hip-hop into a single followable paragraph (for someone like myself who has no affinity for it whatsoever) was truly outstanding. Credit an assist to MrV.
Seriously, I don't like it, but at least now I know where it came from. Which I will promptly use to educate and astound my like minded friends next time they bring up rap. I can't wait to see the look on their faces. Then again, I might not see that look as I'm ducking a left hook.
We take our music seriously.
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2010 11:53 AM
isaac> maybe I have been a bit too quick to judge. Generally though I find the rap beat /syncopation very irritating & when coupled with aggressive offensive lyrics it's like a red rag to a bull!
However I saw something on the TV last night which widened my perspective somewhat. A program that I have been watching called 'Bush Bash' each week takes 2 well known poets or songwriter/singers into an outback bush town for a couple of days where they have to write a composition / poem that is about the town & its people. Last night they had an older Bush Poet pitted against a Rapper. The Bush Poet won by a country mile but the story penned by the Rapper was surprisingly good. Also the Rapper came across as a clean cut young man ie not the steriotype that I had embedded in my brain (maybe they scrubbed him up as outback people are not so forgiving or accepting of difference ie very conservative).
All I have to offer in this thread is my personal opinion, so this'll be my only post here.
Whether hip hop derived from blues or was handed down from God, whether they sing about drugs & killing & bitches, or about truth & wisdom & love, or just scat...Whatever. To me it all sounds the same and it's absolutely horrible.
Gene, it is perfectly okay for you to believe this. The point of this thread has only been as a plea for folks to maintain an open mind about all forms of music, even ones they believe they hate. It seems to have worked to some degree, and perhaps it has helped some. I too have made such statements in the past, even regarding hip hop. Personally, once I was exposed to the true breadth of that genre, as with others I claimed to hate (eg. country) I realized that my previous statements of hate were much overgeneralized and that I was forced to admit that there were "hip hop" songs that I liked. No, in fact that I loved. In short, I had to admit to myself that I had been wrong on several accounts. ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
I liked rap for a short time. I listened to alot of it, I came to this conclusion: Rap is similar to, and adopts the trappings of music. Yet it is different in some fundamental ways that put it outside the category of things called music, in much the same way that avante garde 'music' does. To call it music (especially good music) requires some diliberate self deception as to what music is made of.
If you take the broadest view, it certainly is 'organized sound.' But, its performers are most often missing the most basic display of melody and harmony. Rhythm and rhyme are there, for sure. I like rap in some ways, primarily that it encourages kids to learn to rhyme in a way that is more accessible than versed poetry, and even more accessible than songwriting, primarily because it requires little knowledge of melody and harmony. This is the fundamental appeal, and why it will never go away. But, that access comes at a cost. "Wait, I can be cool, and onstage, without having to learn to sing or play?" All of the sudden, the legit pursuit of music is going to lose a good number of people who might otherwise be talented at music, but become talented at rapping instead. From an armchair I would guess this has something to do with decline in quality heard on the airwaves.
I certainly don't hate rap, but to call it music is a joke. An artform? Sure. It's not as easy to do as it sounds. To be the best you have to practice it. But I'm sorry, something being difficult that is done while music is playing does not make it music, much less quality music. Dance is like that. So is But dance is not music.
Yes, there are exceptions and hybrids, where rapping is used by musicians. But that does not change the fundamental nature of the beast.
i watched a film called 8 mile.the film was ok,the best thing about it being the,i was going to say song,but rap isn't a song,well not for me.the rap,i think it's "lose yourself",or something like that. it was all about grabbing an oportunity. the striking thing about it for me was the drama of the backing track.i could understand all the words,and it wasn't about bitches,whore's,guns and killing. it's the only rap track i have heard that i like. there may be others out there,but most of the time,i just can't understand the lyric or the subject matter isn't something i would want to listen to.
If you are going to say something is not music, it would be helpful if you could define what music is. To me music is organised sound with rhythm, melody and harmony. Hiphop undoubtedly has rhythm. It is not rapped in monotone - so it has melody, and it has strong defined bass, so the timbre of the vocal against the bassline amount to harmony.
Frankly I don't care what people wear, the discussion was about the music.
@Mr. Long I'm not a fan of defining what constitutes music. The same people who told me music could be defined also told me that 4'33" was a piece of music. It's not. Its a piece of performance art that pretends to be music. Like the motorcycle guy said "any description you can make of 'quality' diminishes that which quality is."
I guess music is like porn. I know it when I see it. I also know when it ain't porn, and when it ain't music.
Thanks for engaging in the discussion with a more reasoned position. I agree with you on John Cage. I actually tend to agree with your postmodern perspective; "If I think it's music it is", but in the context of this whole discussion I though a more concrete, less personal definition was needed. I guess I was, again, playing the devil's advocate a bit.
Isn't that stretching things a bit? If we talk in a normal conversation, we will most likely not be talking in monotone. But that doesn't mean we are singing or producing a melody. I can't agree with your definition of melody here.
well I'll answer that with an example from my own direct experience.
Are you familiar with Ian Dury's "Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick"? - yeah not a rap tune I know.
Well it's as funky as hell! We did a cover in the band I'm in. I really struggled with it, essentially Dury didn't sing - it's more like Rex Harrison in "My Fair Lady" - musical talking.
Speech has a natural rise and fall and syllables are as much emphasised by pitch as they are with attack. For the life of me I could not get the lyric to sound right - it sounded dischordant at certain points, even though, as the guitarist was keen to point out "It's just talking!"
I eventually realised that the problem was partially because of my accent - mine is quite Northern (UK) as opposed to Dury's Cockney. Once I affected a "Mockney" accent, it started to fall into place. Anyway in the end we dropped the number!!!
Speech isn't a monotone and rapping is not normal speech. The natural rise and fall is exagerrated even more on key syllables and it is definitely done with reference to the bassline. It's simple and subtle, microtonal at times - we're not talking Mozart here - I'd still call it a kind of melody. Again maybe you need to say how you define melody?
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 8:03 AM
You know, I knew your comeback would include - well what's the definition of melody? (I'm saying this without sarcasm), I was asking myself that same question as I was typing my last post. I don't have a great answer. I'm sure you could bend the characterisitics of rap to fit any musical textbook definition of it. I'll admit here, that I'm not a professional musician nor enough of an audiophile to be able to dig into the nitty gritty of it.
From your previous statement about the lack of monotone being the equvalent of melody, I thought you had a pretty broad definition which included speech, as my ears hear it. But based on your last post, I guess for you "normal" speech is not melody but "rap" is, owing to an exagerration of pitches on key syllables at certain times. Presumably the next step is to quote a textbook definition of melody as being some variation in pitches and... voila!, an iron clad argument. The trouble is, pretty soon were going to be splitting hairs so fine that we'll be measuring frequency variations, and in the process feeling more like physicists than musicians.
I don't know, I guess for me it's a lot like the poster above who compared this argument to the one over what is obscenity or pornography. I know it when I see it, I know it when I hear it. Admittedly a very vague and unsatisfying intellectual position to take. Maybe I should say "I don't hear MUCH melody, when I hear a rapper..rapping."
You ARE a bulldog in your arguments though, tip o' the cap to ya.
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 8:30 AM
Yes and no! I'm no musicologist either, but at the most simplistic level is melody not just simply a sequence of different tones? (that's my definition - not a textbook one) I would say even normal speech has melodic qualities.
Good to see such a reasoned discussion. I'm not a huge fan of hip-hop, but like similar artists that Isaacullah and Mr VLUN mention. I really only listen to artists which have a definite funk or soul influence, and usually play instruments live.
@Honkin' - I think that many of the best rappers are usually good, if not great, singers as well.
One of the best examples is Cee Lo Green, now famous as half of Gnarls Barkley. I remember reading somewhere that he comes from a gospel background, he's an amazing singer, and his rapping is certainly tuneful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpUNIpCFQrk
Sorry embedding isn't possible on this clip for some reason, but worth checking out, even for just the superfreaky parliment/funkadelic inspired video. You can see where OutKast got a few ideas as well.
It's possible that they are, I don't know, I don't follow them closely enough. I do know that, I believe it was Kanye West, tried to "branch out" into some singing, and was widely criticised because his voice was heavily effected in the studio. At least I think it was West. Note: not a fan of west's, I just read that somewhere.
Honkin, I'm curious if you checked out the previous youtube link. While I wish they'd gone for a more organic and deeper funk backing, I think most people would recognise the ability fo the singer/rapper and that the song is, indeed, music.
Also, confession time - I sing in a covers band, and one of our songs is Rappers Delight by the Sugarhill Gang. I know from experience that the rapping is in tune, as I once managed to sing a verse in the wrong key before finally getting it right!
This is interesting! One of the major problems (IMO) with post-modernist critique is it's extreme subjectivity. The critique boils everything down to individual experience and thought. While this can be a good thing, it certainly makes it very hard to debate about broad concepts such as melody and musicality. As a social scientist, I find it much more useful to work with specific peices of evidence, which is some times subjective, under a broadly defined objective framework. For me, the evidence put forth by GamblersHand (another GH!) "I know from experience that the rapping is in tune, as I once managed to sing a verse in the wrong key before finally getting it right!" bridges the gap between the too subjective "I'll know it when i see it" approach, and the too objective "let's come up with categories and definitions" approach. If rapping can indeed be "out of tune" then isn't it by definition musical? Normal speech can't really be out of tune, can it? And what about spoken word then? What separates rapping from that Def Jam style slam poetry. Slam poetry certainly has rhythm, meter, and rhyme. What it lacks is musical accompaniment. Now, not all rap has full musical accompaniment, and in fact much early rap was arguably just spoken word over drum beats with musical interludes. But I think the genre has evolved greatly since then. That kind of thing wouldn't really pass muster anymore. Those vids I posted, as well that CEe Lo vid posted by GH speak to that. They are VERY musical, while at the same time firmly falling within the defined boundaries of what is Hip Hop music. ---------- ------------------ The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 11:39 AM
I don't think I could illustrate my point any better than to look at this sentence.
Even when rap has great musical accompaniment, it is still accompanied by music. I don't feel that this diminishes rap's power, just that to pretend otherwise is to avoid looking the bull in the face.
On the other hand, I guess one could think of rapping as a percussion instrument that can also convey literal meaning. Which I guess is cool, like talking drums. Hmmm...
I've seen slam poetry with musical accompaniment! It's actually pretty cool.
So, here is another way to think about this. Take a typical 4 piece rock band. You have a lead guitar player. You have a bass player. You have a drummer. You have a singer (who may also play guitar.) The lead guitar player and the singer are probably performing all sorts of notes. The bass player may only be playing 3 or 4 notes, and the drummer isn't really doing anything melodically, just rhythmically. Still, you are getting vocals, melody, harmony, and rhythm.
Now look at a rap group. One, maybe two rappers out front (maybe even doing call and response style lyrics). They are delivering words, just like the rock group, but they are delivering it more like a drum part. Maybe they have some beatboxing going on too. (I've heard multiple beatboxers doing harmony rhythms together.) They may have a DJ spinning some sort of backing track, but in fact he may be adding the melody. Maybe it's 'prerecorded' but he is mixing it right on the spot. It's a weird instrument, but it's an instrument. (A lot of the time rappers will improvise lyrics right on the spot- I've tried that, it's tough).
So, in the end, both forms have melody, harmony, rhythm and lyrics, but they aren't assigning them to the instruments we are used to.
As to lyrical content- there is rap about all sorts of things. Some of it is 'gangsta' rap, but there are also raps about how gangsta culture is ripping apart the African-American community. There is rap that disrespects women and glorifies violence. But there was heavy metal that was about selling your soul to the devil. Youth culture often rebels just for the sake of rebelling. I think lots of youth culture music is really annoying, whether it's Brittney Spears or rap, but I had my youth culture music too (Hail Satan!). I consider gangsta rap to be about the same as bubble-gum pop. It's designed to reach the mass market. That doesn't mean that there aren't pieces that reach beyond the form.
@nacoran: "I've seen slam poetry with musical accompaniment! It's actually pretty cool." Really? That DOES seem pretty cool... I've gone t a few slams (my buddy is into it), and I've generally enjoyed them. I wonder, though (devils advocate again here), is not musically accompanied Slam Poetry just.... Rap? ;)
Also I cannot agree more with your statement: "I consider gangsta rap to be about the same as bubble-gum pop. It's designed to reach the mass market. That doesn't mean that there aren't pieces that reach beyond the form."
And I'd even take it further and say that this is true of ALL musical forms. To me, as musicians, we get further by saying "I don't care for money-driven, corporatist, pop, music" than "I think all of xxxx genre is crap". The former let's us define music as art without over generalizing, whereas the other restricts us from even giving certain songs/artists a chance because of what other individuals have done in the "genre" with which said artists self-identify. If that is to be the case, then I could have made up my mind after hearing the Blues Brothers that that's all blues was and to go stuff it. :)
Frankly after Aussie's last post I was all for throwing in the towel on this thread, I'm just tired of debating with people who post stuff like "Rap is crap" without any attempt to engage in what this thread was intended to discuss, or even explain WHY they hold such absolute opinions.
I'm very grateful to Honkin' on Hobo, for actually engaging in a discussion which was for the most part (one little hiccup!) civil and reasoned. I know he'll never be a fan, but at least he's listened and debated. Thank you - understand what follows is not directed to you.
In all honesty, I find the position that rap isn't music to be just downright offensive. Denying point blank that there is ANY musicianship in rap/hiphop is a HUGE insult to a number of people whose skills and credentials would be undeniable if they were viewed without blinkers on.
Similarly dismissing ALL hiphop as destructive, antisocial, misogynist, glorified violence is equally insulting to those artist who use the medium to spread messages of tolerance to disaffected kids who are difficult to engage through the traditional channels..
I find the antics of the new wave of gangsta rappers reprehensible. Lyrics that glorify guns, drugs, money and degrade women are not my thing at all, but in a supposed land of free speech you cannot choose which rappers are worthy of the right to free expression. That is censorship - If I did that I'd have to get in line with the book-burners. So I find myself in the rather depressing and exhausting position of defending material I don't even like!
I'm grateful to Isaac for stepping in, in rap's defence (and if I'm reading it right probably feeling the same way as me.)
I'm just really sad that with almost a hundred posts in the thread we've barely touched on the original point, which was not to justify rap's existence, but to discuss the similarities - positive and negative - between rap and blues.
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2010 4:16 PM
Mr Longusername, I was using clothing as an analogy to the point and not to go off point. I am out of this thread as i do not belong here. Have a nice day.
Isaacullah- Slam poetry to music- actually, it sounds different than what most people would consider rap. There is a different cadence to slam poetry. I've heard all sorts of spoken word over music. Slam poetry puts the emphasis on different syllables. Some of the other poetry of music had entirely different lilt to the meter.
One of the great things about the open mic I used to attend was there was a lot of respect between the different groups there, so there was a lot of cross pollination of ideas and impromptu collaboration.
I was reading an article the other day about two groups of engineers who were given the same problem to solve. One group was all engineers. They solved the problem using brute force. They tried one solution after another until they solved the problem. The other group had a mix of different backgrounds. They solved the problem a lot more quickly with more of a Eureka! approach.
I think, even if someone ends up not liking rap, listening to different genres exposes people to different ideas and different ways to solve problems. I used to do some volunteer work at a place that dealt with disability issues. One day they had me typing a legal document into a computer. It was already a typed copy. The person who had put together the document had been told to prepare the document, but hadn't been given the bigger picture, so he had printed it out and hadn't saved it. This was frustrating since it meant doing a job that really could have been avoided.
What made it worse was that after retyping everything I had to read the document out loud into a tape recorder so that a blind man, who also did some volunteer work for the center, could listen to the recording and type it out in Braille.
The problem was, everyone was doing their little part without paying attention to what everybody else was doing. One of my hobbies is reading technology articles. I knew that voice synthesis software could read the document, and that just saving the document the first time would mean it didn't need to be retyped. In fact, all the steps were kind of repetitive. The original document could be 'read' to any blind people by software, if someone just came up with the right interface any text document could be converted into a Braille document without anyone needed to do all that manual labor. The problem with the system was everyone was only paying attention to their own little part.
That's the great thing about threads like this one. Some people won't bother exposing themselves to something new, but some people will, and when this happens cross pollination occurs and you get something new. Some day, some country singer will be at an open mic or reading a thread like this, wondering what to do about the fact that he doesn't have a drummer and he'll realize he doesn't need a drummer. He needs someone to do beatbox.
Or somebody will do something else even more unexpected and it will be awesome, at least to someone.
"Lyrics that glorify guns, drugs, money and degrade women are not my thing at all, but in a supposed land of free speech you cannot choose which rappers are worthy of the right to free expression. That is censorship - If I did that I'd have to get in line with the book-burners"
Damn skippy!. And yes, MrVLUN, I feel the same as you about our strange position vis a vis this thread. I have been trying to keep it on track (tying rap and blues together), but I feel that every time we start to make headway, we get derailed by yet ANOTHER blanket statement. Nacoran seems to get it though,a nd phogi and Honkin on are at least debating intellignetly. Even Aussie (who is flat out against rap) seems to have made one or two conciliations.
nacoran-- I'll definitely have to check out some of that musical slam you talk about. it sounds very interesting. Plus, I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about cross pollination. Is not that the way to innovative NEW music? Revisiting hip hop (because of this thread) has gotten me, at least, really quite inspired. I've started learning to beat box, and I've started trying to adapt harmonica to hip hop beats and inflections (inflexions for you brits). Also, the research has lead me to a greater understanding of the roots and evolution of america's urban music. The roots are in the Blues for a great deal of America's music, and it's interesting and worthwhile to trace ALL the branches of the tree...
Not trying to be that Guy but the word "Race" is just not the best word to be tossing out there, there is only ONE human race but lots of different cultures, not trying to start anything but its just a dirty word IMO
"Lyrics that glorify guns, drugs, money and degrade women are not my thing at all"
I can kinda empathize with this due to the utter lack of art in most rap I've listened to (about 200 songs)- particularly the most popular stuff. However, again, its important to look the bull in the face:
1) Ain't women the cause of most your troubles? 2) Do not these trouble make you want to get drunk? 3) Do not these troubles sometimes make you want to be violent?
Still, I don't think rap is the modern blues. Music genres are defined by rhythmic, harmonic, melodic, and lyrical styles. Not seeing alot of similarities there, I'm seeing more similarities to the blues in every other genre of music. I don't think you'll ever find a rapper who claimed a bluesman as his primary source of inspiration.
To my understanding Kool Herc is the one primarily credited with hip hop, his roll was as a dj that beat juggled to extend the breakdancing sessions. Also credited is 'toasting' evoloving to the point where it was the main attraction. To me this excludes blues as a point of influence, because the 'toasting' that may have happened during a jazz or blues performance was not closely tied to the music, it could have been done to any kind of music.
The only legit tie, in my opinion, would be that Kool Herc was into James Brown. James Brown, being from the South , poor, and hustling for money, playing harmonica, having been in prison, and having been an innovator in rhythm & blues, PROBABLY had some serious influence from the blues.
While that avenue may merit investigation, its a loose tie at best.
Well it's been a few days since this thread waned. One of the after-effects of this thread for me has been that I've been listening (re-listening in some cases) to what I would call "Alt-Hop" (alternative, artistic, hip-hop music) on last.fm. Here is a list of what I would consider the core members of the Alt-Hop movement: Tribe Called Quest De La Soul Diggable Planets The Roots The Fugees Arrested Development Outkast Black Star Spearhead Talib Kweli KRS1
So if you are interested in positive, musical, artistic, creative hip hop music, this list is a good place to start. I'm sure there are more, and I might add to the list in the future.
And I'll leave the last word to De La Soul —
"The Magic Number"
(got to have soul!)
3 That's the magic number Yes it is It's the magic number Somewhere in this hip-hop soul community Was born 3 mase, dove and me And that's the magic number
(what does it all mean? )
Difficult preaching is posdnuos' pleasure Pleasure and preaching starts in the heart Something that stimulates the music in my measure Measure in my music, raised in three parts Casually see but don't do like the soul 'cause seein' and doin' are actions for monkeys Doin' hip hop hustle, no rock and roll Unless your name's brewster, 'cause brewster's a punky Parents let go 'cause there's magic in the air Criticising rap shows you're out of order Stop look and listen to the phrasin' fred astaires And don't get offended while mase do-se-do's your daughter A tri-camera rolls since our music's now set Fly rhymes are stored on a d.a.i.s.y. production It stands for "da inner sound y'all" and y'all can bet That the action's not a trick, but showing the function
Everybody wants to be a deejay Everybody wants to be an emcee But being speakers are the best And you don't have to guess De la soul posse consists of three And that's the magic number
This here piece of the pie Is not dessert but the course that we dine And three out of every darn time The effect is "mmmm" when a daisy grows in your mind Showing true position, this here piece is Kissin' the part of the pie that's missin' When that negative number fills up the casualty Maybe you can subtract it You can call it your lucky partner Maybe you can call it your adjective But odd as it may be Without my 1 and 2 where would there be My 3 Mase pos and me And that's the magic number
Focus is formed by flaunts to the soul Souls who flaunt styles gain praises by pounds Common are speakers who are never scrolls Scrolls written daily creates a new sound Listeners listen 'cause this here is wisdom Wisdom of a speaker, a dove and a plug Set aside a legal substance to feed 'em For now get 'em high off this dialect drug Time is a factor so it's time to count Count not the negative actions of one Speakers of soul say it's time to shout Three forms the soul to a positive sum Dance to this fix and flex every muscle Space can be filled if you rise like my lumber Advance to the tune but don't do the hustle Shake, rattle, roll to my magic number
Now you may try to subtract it But it just won't go away Three times one? (what is it? ) (one, two, three!) And that's the magic number
One of my criticisms of rap is its ...I don't know the word. The word that means "It uses itself to comment on itself." While I tend to like that trend in some kinds of writing, I don't like it so much in lyrics. @everybody
Be sure not to judge lyrics by how hey read on the page. To quote Jimmy Webb "Great songs do not always look good on the page. In fact, it's rare." So if you are looking at the meter, etc, and saying "hey man, that don't flow," pull the tune up on youtube first.
I don't consider most rap to be music. To me, it's sort of an urban poetry with some music elements that serve an ornamental function. Some rap (tupac and mos def, for example) is more musical, but, for the most part, i think it's simply incorrect to consider rap, as a genre, be a form of music.
With some notable exceptions, it seems to me that the rap artists rhyme because they can't sing and sample because they can't play. It may be an art form, but, for the most part, it's not music. Just because it's produced on CDs and made to be listened to doesn't mean it's music.
Well, it's clear that this thread has not/will not convince everyone to step outside preconceived ideas about music and hip-hop, and it's connections to and evolutions from the blues. So that's not the point of these final postings. My wish is to give a little jump-start for those who have/will/want to take a new look at hip-hop, and perhaps point them to hip-hop bands that make music that could help them gain a new/different appreciation/understanding for the genre. Hip-hop IS music, and no naysaying will negate that. The thing is that hip-hop currently occupies a position in a musical generational gap that at one point was occupied by Blues, by Rock and Roll, by Punk, by New Wave, by Grunge, etc. All musical forms are called un-musical by members of the previous musical generation whilst they occupy this position (ie. while they fall into the generation gap). When talking about musical generations, it's important to note that a persons' age is not what defines the "generation", but it is their attitudes/ideas about music and what constitutes music. Personally, I like to embrace the past (eg. why I love Blues, Bluegrass, Old Timey music, etc.) while constantly looking towards the future (eg. why I love Indie Rock, Alt-Hop, Alt-Country, etc.). My passion will always be to seek ways of combining all these things that pays respect to the roots, but that moves things forward. I guess in terms of Harmonica players, I'm more like Adam, Chris, and Jason in this respect, and less like dudes like Kim Wilson, Dave Barret, and Dennis Gruenling who are awesome players, but who are also pretty pure traditionalists.
Cheers all, here's to continued self-edification! :)
