....because I just can't find anything in the video below that would sound more musical, more soulful, more like the pure spirit of blues harmonica (in its Nashville/gospel/bluegrass incarnation) if TB were added. This is the wildly soulful set that Todd Parrott delivered at Hill Country Harmonica 2012.
Sometimes you do better to just leave the TB at home, at Todd does here. Or at least that how Todd's playing in this extended video clip makes me feel.
Understand: I love TB. I do it. I glory to it. But finally what I care about is the music. The technique has to serve the music. Too often on this forum, we forget that.
This video will remind you that some blues harmonica styles just are what they are--and don't need TB. They don't NEED overblows, but Todd overblows, and overdraws, and those techniques, too, serve the music.
If you're not familiar with Todd's playing, please set aside a half hour, make yourself a big drink, and have a nice Saturday night (or Sunday morning). Cheers.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 14, 2013 5:40 PM
This has got less to do with embouchure and more to do with single note playing. Which can of course be done using any embouchure. The only advantage of using lip pursing when doing this is that it can make it easier to add a certain approach to groups of notes. So I'd disagree that "lip pursing rules". If however you want to sing the glory of playing mostly single notes. Playing thought out musical, lyrically melodic lines, rather than just recycling old riffs and stringing them together. Then hell yes I'd agree. I could listen to Todd or any any other good player perform music like that all the live long day. As I've gotten older I tend to play more and more using a melodic approach. It's much more musically interesting than just playing recycled blues riffs.
"If you're not familiar with Todd's playing, please set aside a half hour, make yourself a big drink, and have a nice Saturday night (or Sunday morning)."
Amen to that! Todd when is your album going to be released?
Last Edited by Kingley on Sep 15, 2013 2:03 AM
The longer we play we seem to create our own internal ear for what sound we are after - some find it others don't...We'll begin to develop a set of criteria for what we feel is excellent, rather than sucmbing to what others want us to be or sound like as musicians.
The question becomes what do we think is a great sound ? How did I think I played... What do I think this phrase should sound like? Which notes do I believe should be exaggerated... How long do I think that high note should be sustained, given the upcoming phrasing?
We begin thinking for ourselves, developing a voice, and not just using every technique in a song just because its available...We are always going to be contemplating the feedback given to us from those more experienced and knowledgeable, but the point is, follow your own heart...And as already stated - serving the song is a wise standard to follow- even then the naysayers will be plentiful, wishing to have heard something else.
Bottomline Todds performance was Spectacular for a multiple of reasons, lip blocking/pursing being just one of them...That 30 min video is like the book you can't put down - the time just flew by while listening.
I have loved listening to Todds type of playing since hearing Buddy Greene in the late 80's and buying his INSTRUMENTALS "album" PRAISE HARMONICA, which I still have. I'm sure Todd is familiar and well versed in all things Buddy. I'm a fan of Todds and too am looking forward to His debut album, till then check Buddy's catalog out :)
I like how he tastefully interacted with the recorded band. Sounds to me like he is playing straight into the PA, no processing. This guy is excellent. Nothing boreing here. Thanks Adam, for great cup of joe on a beautifull NW. PA morning...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Sep 15, 2013 7:06 AM
I understand that todd never tongue blocks.........is he is successful w/o tb???you tell me........that being said...I would still like to tb......but it would be like starting from scratch
Stunning. It's just so nice to hear the control and the emotional potential that harp can communicate. As to LP, the quality of the playing stands on its own. Music.
It's all about the ability to play Legato phrasing, Christele has it Todd has it and Brendan has it but unfortunately most tongue blocking Blues players don't because tongue blocking does not lend itself to that technique the tongue is just not as articulated as the lips, sorry to say but true
"Legato (Italian for "tied together") indicates that musical notes are played or sung smoothly and connected. That is, the player transitions from note to note with no intervening silence." - Wikipedia
What is it about tongue-blocking that you think makes it harder to smoothly connect notes together?
"Lip blocking makes for great musical lines. TB makes for great "off the groove" playing."
Iceman - Sorry, but that is complete and utter crap! Both embouchures are perfectly suitable for doing either. It's all down to the players individual musical approach.
Whistler - Please enlighten us as to how it's more difficult for a tongue blocker to perform "legato".
I cannot see for the life of me why people insist upon perpetuating these myths over embouchure. It's almost as if people seek validation that they are "in" on some kind of secret.
I don't know about anyone else but I find my best performance comes when I do what's indicated, meaning TB, LP, or whatever at a given moment in a given song. We do a lot of double turnarounds both in the duo and the band format I work with. A single note approach gives a very honed in result while doing octaves or chords gives a bigger fuller sound. Both seem necessary to me at different times. I admit I don't work much with single note TB, I was a lip purser for my first 25 years of playing, and old habits die hard. 15 years or so ago I began learning 3rd position and that's when octaves and chords became so much more important, ie tongue blocking. I found I could use the harp from hole 1 to hole 10, 12 or 14 depending on what instrument I was using. Somewhere along the way I found some cool 1-6 octave stuff in 2nd position as well, and more recently has been a revisit to 1st with octave stuff to fatten the effect.
I think if you do your craft all one way you are likely missing out on some great cool stuff that's available. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
Personally, I switched from TB to LP a couple years ago after over 20 years of playing. Best move I ever made. My articulation, intonation and overall musicality improved immeasurably.
Come on guys...not another hundred quotes as you why you need both or why one is better or to each his own or they have their place..blah blah blah...We've heard all that and Adam has a point here. Don't respond until you listen to this 30 minutes of awesomeness. You really cannot unless you do. Many techniques are used including train effects.
Can Tongue Blockers play single notes, overblow, overdraw, play quickly over all ten holes, articulate, bend up, bend down,...sure they can!!
Can they take these techniques and others to the level of a Lip Purser like Todd or Jason? Heck no!
TBing ROCKS and is a HUGE part of harmonica music. It has it's "specialties" that lip blockers and lip pursers can't do. You can't find a TBer that can match the quality of some of the techniques and phrasing Todd does here.
Many have disputed my previous statement without proving otherwise. So this is no longer an opinion...but pretty much a proven fact.
I agree with Whistler, and to some extent with Iceman, and disagree somewhat with Kingley. The great strength of TB is its ability to deliver the "dirt" (as Joe Filisko calls it), the little bits of other notes around the edges. Todd's great virtue in the video above, and a general virtue of LP, is the ability to play smooth, seamless, legato lines that contain no dirt. In a blind test, one of the giveaways that someone is playing TB is NOT that it's a "thicker sound," as some people would claim, but that the sound contains little epiphenomenal transients as the tongue shifts and, on occasion, lifts and sets back down.
But these are just general tendencies, not hard and fast rules. Sugar Blue told us at HCH 2011 that he's a full-time tongue blocker, and his style, especially on those lightning-fast upper octave runs, is as legato as you can get. He proves conclusively that TB CAN enable a legato sound.
A propos of nothing, I was driving this morning, listening to Sirius XM, and a Big Jack Johnson cut came on--he was playing acoustic guitar and the harp player was fantastic. I was sure, 100% sure, that it was Joe Filisko. It certainly sounded TB, and it had a full, mellow, beautifully contained yet energetic sound that perfectly complemented what Big Jack was doing. It was exemplary stuff. I was sure that it was Joe.
I just checked the Bluesville playlist for this morning and it was "Get Along Little Cindy" off the MEMPHIS BARBECUE sessions. Kim Wilson on harp. It sounded like nothing else I've heard from Kim. It was pure-D country blues. Flawless. And tongue blocked, most of it--or so I'd bet.
Here's the cut. Please buy it and tell me what you think.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000S44AOK/?&tag=wwwpandoracom-20
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 15, 2013 9:52 AM
Rick I do hear Charlie McCoy, but I also hear a huge influence from the man below. Terry appears to be more of a lip blocker than a lip purser as I see a tilt of the harp.
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Sep 15, 2013 10:29 AM
I think Kim jumped on working with "Big Jack Johnson" because of the challenge of blowin harp to Jacks style - no easy feat in my opinion...
Here is a tune I did in 05, that is mostly LB with some TB thrown in. I was in the throes of beginning the switch -so was still mainly LBing at this time.
Point is, it's the player who decides their approach with how they want to display the notes regardless of embouchure...
In other words, you can play pretty and lyrical TB if you want and you can play nasty and rough while LBing if you want...IT's up to the player :)
I disagree w/Kingley's "that is complete and utter crap!" in both content and tone.
I never said that one couldn't do the other. I find single note in my playing leads to great linear ideas while TB allows the groove to bleed through and hear the same in so many other players.
Sugar Blue can TB and get great lines. To my ears, he keeps his tongue on the harmonica most of the time without lifting/slapping, etc., so it's very close to single note playing. ---------- The Iceman
do whatever it takes to getterdone.........todd sure does here...hope he comes back next memorial day weekend....and adams suggestion of todd playing halftime at the super bowl.....yes it could happen hope it does
Last Edited by groyster1 on Sep 15, 2013 12:31 PM
"Sugar Blue can TB and get great lines. To my ears, he keeps his tongue on the harmonica most of the time without lifting/slapping, etc., so it's very close to single note playing."
That's a false dichotomy. It isn't "very close to single note playing"; it is single note playing.
"Point is, it's the player who decides their approach with how they want to display the notes regardless of embouchure...
In other words, you can play pretty and lyrical TB if you want and you can play nasty and rough while LBing if you want...IT's up to the player"
I agree with Frank.
Here's some lyrical, legato playing from a tongue blocker:
Last Edited by timeistight on Sep 15, 2013 12:12 PM
@ Kingsly, your emotions are getting in the way here I said "Legato phrasing" It's phrasing(the articulated slur between notes) that's in question here I didn't say it couldn't be done I said that lips can articulate more than the tongue.Do you think that TBs can glissando as well as a LPs? This is all about opinions and you know what they say about that.
Iceman - No you didn't, but your comment certainly implied it. Which is why I responded in the manner I did. .
"he keeps his tongue on the harmonica most of the time without lifting/slapping, etc., so it's very close to single note playing."
Which is exactly what I do. It's not "very close to single note playing" it is single note playing. Just as Timeistight correctly stated.
"one of the giveaways that someone is playing TB is NOT that it's a "thicker sound," as some people would claim, but that the sound contains little epiphenomenal transients as the tongue shifts and, on occasion, lifts and sets back down."
Adam I know what you mean, but I have to disagree with you on this. As a 99% tongue blocker I don't lift my tongue off the harp at all when playing single note lines. Unless of course I want to utilise a slap, a pull or some other flourish. I suspect if you heard me play and didn't know who I was, that you'd most likely think I was mixing embouchures. I know from recording myself that if I play the same single note line with a different embouchure and listen back to it that I can't tell the difference.
Last Edited by Kingley on Sep 15, 2013 12:58 PM
Whistler, TB players can absolutely glissando as well as LP's. TB allows great accuracy when doing that. LP glissandos--and I do a lot of them--can be sloppy and require strong chops and lots of practice. (Of course, TB glissandos require the same practice to nail.)
I feel like a troll for starting this thread. We're beating the same boy we always beat.
Meanwhile, Todd's stellar playing deserves our attention--and speaks for itself.
Kingley, I'll edit what I've just posted here to say that I believe you've misunderstood me. I was extremely, indeed psychotically careful in what I wrote to make no unilateral pronouncements. Of COURSE some TB players don't lift their lips from the harp. Sugar Blues is an excellent example--at least in his fast upper octave runs. That's why I invoked him. (Of course he works his TB technique several different ways; he has one characteristic mode where he takes one specific spot on the harp, such as the 14 draw or blow, and then rapidly hits the harp--tongue on, tongue off--to make complex patterns for a period of up to 10 or 15 seconds on the one octave/chord.)
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 15, 2013 1:00 PM
"Iceman sez "Methinks you are projecting yourself into my comment"
I don't think so.
"Lip blocking makes for great musical lines.
TB makes for great "off the groove" playing."
So you're trying to tell me that your comment quoted above doesn't read as if you're implying that only those embouchures can do those things well? If so, then I think you're sadly mistaken.
2chops, I'm in New Castle. Right smack in the middle of the Sportsmans Peridice. I miss Weber's spell check. I'v never been to Williamsport, that I can recall. This is a dead town, music wise. I should go to Pittsburgh to play but the traffic SUCKS...BN
One thing I forgot to mention after watching the vid with a large drink as Adam suggested is the fact that Todd is awesome!!!!!!
There's some seriously technical stuff going on there, especially in the upper register with all the overdraws, but at no point does it become widdly twiddly "Look at me", which is a rare thing indeed and really separates the really good player from the great players.
I don't think it's too gushing to say Todd's playing transcends harmonica from a technical standpoint and simply stands as great music, period.
Whether he's TB or LP isn't really that relevant.
I also forgot to mention my own favourable experience learning how to LP was largely influenced and directed by members of this forum to whom I am eternally grateful.
Hi folks. I don't usually weigh in to these fractious debates on the forum any more, but I felt I have something to add, so here I am! Unfortunately, I feel this thread has lead to some backsliding in the progress we were makeing in the last thread on TB "vs" LB. The consensus in the last thread was that each one has its advantages, and/but that there is a lot of crossover space between them. That is absolutely true here.
Here are two of what I consider to be the best "Legato" players of our instrument.
Chris Michalek:
Dan Kaplan:
Chris played everything with lip block. Dan plays everything with a tongue block. Do they sound exactly the same? Heck no! They've go their own sounds! But do they both flow through the music, from note to note? Yup! Two roads to achieve the same effect. It's up to YOU to choose which road suites YOU. You are unique, with your own set of physical and mental talents. Do what's best for you. Let's move on! :) ----------
I'd like to address one thing that has been touched upon here. I've read about this before and thought boy I don't know if I believe that. Has anyone else listened closely to Sugar Blue and thought he is not a full time tongue blocker? I don't want this to turn into an arguement just wondering if anyone else has listened to him and just thought, "boy I don't hear it"! He has recorded examples of toungue slaps, but most lifts. His whole stlye and the tonality sounds like a lip purser that switchs to TB.
Sugar is a great example. Just because most people play that style pucker doesn't mean you have to.
Most people TB'ing do so for the effects you can create. That doesn't mean you have to, though.
On his earlier work, and I am not as knowledgeable about his newest stuff, you can hear him using TB effects all the time. Take his version of That's Alright, for example. I don't hear him playing a lot of octaves, but he does a lot of TB effects as he gets into longer solos or when he's playing relatively straight blues. He likes to play from both sides of the mouth so there is chording from the left and single notes from the right.
chromaticblues: "I'd like to address one thing that has been touched upon here. I've read about this before and thought boy I don't know if I believe that. Has anyone else listened closely to Sugar Blue and thought he is not a full time tongue blocker?"
Sugar Blue says he's a full-time tongue blocker. Why would he lie?
chromaticblues - Yes. I don't hear much of what I consider TB techniques in SB's playing. He doesn't employ a lot of slaps and pulls. If I chose to copy his style of playing,I think I could do it LP. I can't stand the TB vs. LP controversy. I've heard some great playing from guys who relied on mostly one of those techniques. I'm more concerned in what a player has to say and not how he says it. Only harp players care about technique and it is important to us. The great unwashed masses could care less. They only care about whether or not you're making good music .
Last Edited by Tuckster on Sep 16, 2013 8:27 AM
@ Tuckster I TOTALY agree! @ timeistight That is exactly why I have left the topic along for so long. I don't want to imply he is lieing. Nor am I. I am adressing this purly from listening to his recordings and nothing else! Instead argueing about nonsense I thought maybe disecting a great harp players work would be more fun and constructive. To me he is the perfect example as HarpNinja said, and that is why I brought it up! There has to be other people that hear the same thing I do? @ Harpninja What you said is percisely my point. I hear the tongue lifts for effect, but all the othet stuff sounds like LP to me?
@ Chromaticblues & Tuckster - Sugar Blue TB's everything. Some years ago he was playing a gig in the UK and invited Lee Sankey sit in. Lee spoke specifically about SB's style, TB'ing & switching from blocking with one side of the tongue to the other to facilitate instant octave jumps.
I also have some late 80's recordings of SB with Louisiana Red at the 100 Club, SB is playing rhythmic chording with tongue slaps, very much like Kim Wilson on his extended harp solos.
I think a lot of folk see slaps & articulation as the defining feature of TBing. Sure, there are certain articulations & moves that are made easier, but the defining feature of TBing is to select single holes with a TB. Without "give aways" like slaps, it gets much harder to identify.
@ Tuckster - I agree with your sentiments on making good music. I don't think in reality, apart from Sugar Blue and a few other notable cases, that the "TB vs LP controversy" is quite as controversial as many think, the vast majority of players mix it up, most do more of one than the other for sure, but it's not like a TB'er who plays a high end blow bend LP'd gets turned into a pillar of salt! ;-)
@5F6H Again I'm not going on anything ANYONE has said I'm purely comenting on what I hear. You never hear him transitioning from one side to the other. I just assumed he was a LP. So after reading he was a full time TB I went back and listened more open mindedly and just can't hear a single thing that makes me think he is a full time TB'er. To me his tone doesn't even sound like a TB'er. I've always thought he was an amazing harp player, but he has to be amazingly percise to do what he does at his speed! It's so incedible I just have a hard time wrapping my around it!
In hindsight, I should have learned to TB everything like SB. That's the best. I love his playing and it is SO SMOOTH.
In fact, I am going to start woodshedding more TB'ing, especially bends. That's where I stopped. It was just easier to switch to LP. Now I have something to do over winter. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
Hi everyone…I really love this TB vs LP discussion. Very educational! But, would someone please clarify something for me? What does one HAVE to do to say they are a “tongue blocker” or “lip purser”? Do they have to ONLY play single notes by one method or the other? Do they have to ONLY play single notes AND ONLY bend by one method or another? Do they have to ALWAYS play by one method or another without ever employing the other method? And just food for thought…if a “tongue blocker” plays a 1, 2, 3, 4 chord without any tongue action…is he/she actually lip pursing that chord? ;) I’m curious as to what exactly the standards are!
It's all the same doughnut,- if were talking in relatives- yet the subject is not quite like a dog chasing it's own tail...And though the embouchures can be viewed as identical in many ways - there is room for hair splitting...
No one has to say they use this or that - when it comes to embouchure, but the mere mention of using one or the other seems to bring out many a players metaphysical sides - thus professing their experience with using them, despite of possible limitations that may skew any current reality on the subject.
And in the end- only standards to adhere to would be the making good music - because one mans standards when playing the harmonica is another mans topic for debate.:)
Last Edited by Frank on Sep 16, 2013 10:38 AM
I use both methods and, much like what Kim Wilson does, often switch embouchures mid-phrase without a problem but you have to be fully relaxed and not force ANYTHING to do it properly without screwing the phrase up and most players who've taught themselves have a tendency to force everything and so they stiffen up considerably, which makes the transition to and from as well as being able to make any and all necessary adjustments often close to impossible.
For most classical chromatic players, TB is the single most accepted method, and in an old book/LP/harp instruction method put out by Cham Ber Huang back in the 60's, the one thing he demonstrated with a TB is that you can actually play much faster this way if you move the instrument in a very slight arc, rather than moving your head, and this isn't just for warbles (and most players who try to teach themselves this will usually make a far too heavily exaggerated arc and often make things harder for themselves).
There are some things that are going to be naturally going to be easier with one method over the other. As an example, the opening 4 bars of BW's solo on the Jimmy Rogers classic Walking By Myself, the ONLY way to get the accenting right is done with a TB.
Another example is the opening 4 bars on Junior Wells' solo on the version of Messin' With The Kid that he recorded on the series Chicago/The Blues/Today series on the Vanguard label has him using his tongue beating rapidly against the palate in his mouth and the only way this can be done is with the LP method.
if you put enough work into it, and learn to make any and all necessary adjustments necessary to pull them off(and most of them are going to be very subtle and most players, again, who are going to be teaching themselves, 80% of the time are going to very heavily exaggerate it), and you can fool many players that it was either one, and with enough work put into both, I've often fooled people using the LP to think I had TB'd as well as using at TB and making people think I did just the opposite.
Most LP players will have problems doing bends TB'd largely because they often haven't learned to make the adjustments needed to do it, which starts off with the embouchure itself, often being not opened wide enough, not having the harp in the mouth deep enough (and many players exaggerate and do it too deeply), and often don't create a large enough cavity in their mouths to make things happen. Again, you have to remember that this is all going to be VERY SUBTLE ADJUSTMENTS and will take some time to find the "happy medium" in order to make it happen.
I started out TB'ing and later later learned LP, and one of the very first things I had to do was to adjust the embouchure and the inside shape of the mouth so things were smaller than it was with the TB. This is not going to be 10 easy lessons done in a week, and will take at least 2++ months before it becomes part of the muscle memory.
Most players don't successfuly make the adjustments because they haven't made the time or enough effort to make the adjustments needed. Many LP players have trouble with TB because they haven't quite learned to leave the LP out. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
AZBluesHarper, The answer to your question is mostly no. If I TB a 1-2-3-4 chord, that means that my tongue is on one side of the holes (usually to the left of the holes), and the side of my mouth is on the other (usually the right side of the holdes). If you were LP'ing the chord, your lips would be sealing on both sides of the notes being played. However, your example is somewhat ambiguous because on a large 1-2-3-4 chord on the bottom end of the harp, many TB'ers just open up and play like a LP. Other TB'ers place their tongue on the wood to the left of the 1-hole. It just depends on the sound you want, what you just played, and what's coming next. For example if I was playing a 1-2-3-4 draw to end the song, I would probably open up my embrouchure and lift up my tongue and play the chord like a LP. However, if I had just finished a single note 2-draw, or was about to play a single note 2-draw, I would likely keep my tongue on the harp when playing the chord. Keep in mind that all this is automatic. I'm not consciously thinking about this when I'm playing. Hope this helps.
Can I assume from your forum name that you're in Arizona? What city?
I moved to Phoenix last year from Atlanta and am thinking of starting a harmonica club like I did in Atlanta. I was one of the two founding members of the Atlanta Harmonica Enthusiasts. I've been collecting AZ harp player names to eventualyl contact them to see if there is any interest in a club here.
Hey Arizona folks! I recently moved away from the phx area, but before I left was able to get together with several local players from this forum and start up a little club. Hit me up off list (contact info is in my forum profile) and I'll be happy to context you with those guys! ----------
I'm just catching back up with the forum after a busy weekend. Just want to say thanks to Adam for the post and to everyone for the kind words. My project is pretty much wrapped up - just need to do a little editing and mixing. Glad you guys like the "backing band" and how I interact with "them" in the video, because I played most of the instruments, and even drums on one of them. :) It's been a long, long process since it's primarily a solo effort.
As for TB versus LP, I have a great amount of respect for TB players. Kirk "Jelly Roll" Johnson is also a tongue-blocker, and does some amazing stuff. And Norton Buffalo, as I understand, was a U-blocker. Not sure how he did some of the things he did as a U-blocker, but he was great!
I am primarily a lip purser, but I use a lot of tongue-blocking techniques for octaves, splits, warbles between the 3 & 5 draw, etc. I wish I was better at tongue-blocking in general.
In regards to Terry McMillan, one of my biggest influences, his tone had a uniqueness to it, which made him the #1 session guy in Nashville for many years. He had a lot of repetition in his playing, but people wanted him for his sound. I know how he got his sound, and while I won't go so far as to say it's impossible to emulate with tongue-blocking, I do think it would be extremely difficult. All the living players I know who were influenced by, patterned themselves after, and who sound like Terry, are all lip pursers.
hello todd did not know about terry until after he passed....read about in the pigeon forge paper...in the youtube videos I could see the GM harps.....influence on u?
