harpdude61
1820 posts
Sep 17, 2013
8:46 AM
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BBQ Bob...I always have an open ear when you speak. I have learned much from you and always think of you if I catch myself tensing up.
However, I disagree that Lip Block style must have a smaller embouchere. I started lip blocking but because of reading quotes from people like you, I focused on loose, dropped jaw, big open mouth and throat....with tilted harp deep in mouth.
I really don't understand why bending would be more difficult Lip Blocked or Pursed. I find it just as easy to play a hole bent as unbent..maybe easier.
Todd...Glad you chimed in. I agree that people like Sugar Blue are top notch. He does play fast on the high end. Still, I don't think he could come as close to matching your high end, single note phrasing as you could to his. The nuances and shaping of the OBs and ODs are just not something that comes easy to a TBer. Not slamming anyone guys. Just stating what I hear.
Funny how the same people chime in about how they wish the TB/LB debate would die or stop hashing it or each has it's place. Of course they do! Why the heck are you reading this thread? and commenting?
Everyone of these threads has been awesome. I have learned something from each one as I'm sure many players at all levels have.
I think we need one at least every other week or so. Really, why are you reading and chiming in if you hate it and/or don't want to grow from it??
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Frank
2749 posts
Sep 17, 2013
9:24 AM
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I remember flipping through the tv channels years ago and seeing Terry performing quite often on religious stations and admiring his exuberant performances and incredible harpin. He was certainly a great harp advocate in the Christian Community :)
I too feel there is much positive info to be gleaned from discussing harp embrocures. I think the controversy is just a by-product of the bottomless pit of ignorance that many players can succumb too because of an experience deficit with the embouchures in question.
And, in my opinion (we all have one , cough, cough) - since most of us are amateurs in every sense of the word, we can close our minds to what is factual and truly possible for the players who play the harmonica basically 24/7...
Most things I can do on the harp now , at one time It was not capable for me to wrap my mind around how what I was hearing could be possible to ever do. Through perseverance, not rushing and patience I can do many of those things easily now.
Any hoo - I try to imagine the serious PROs sitting around and discussing these things and wonder how the conversation would unfold :)
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barbequebob
2334 posts
Sep 17, 2013
9:30 AM
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@harpdude61 --- The reason why I say that the LP style has a smaller embouchure size is because the opening for the lips is going to be considerably smaller compared to amount necessary for a really good TB embouchure and many of those things you mentioned can also apply with the TB, and that probably what you don't have a clear understanding of.
In many ways, it's much like the difference between the way opera singers are taught how to sing and how everyone else in other genres often sing and the way opera singers are taught is to sing with a very open throat so that everything projects with more volume, resonance, and ability to cut rhru the mix, yet use the least of amount of air necessary and most other vocalists in other styles aren't usually doing that.
One thing to bear in mind is that the differences are gigantic, but very subtle and that's a very important point to remember.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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mr_so&so
731 posts
Sep 17, 2013
9:56 AM
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Let me wade in here and say, yes, Todd is great and he is LB/LPing. People tend to do and advocate what works for them, and few take the time necessary to become expert in all the techniques. All that is perfectly rational.
I also like Frank's last post above. I suspect that the LB/LP vs. TB debate is ultimately useless even among the pros, 'though I'd still like to hear the pros discuss it.
I can claim to have some, but limited, expertise with both embouchures, and now prefer TB. I suspect that given enough time and talent just about anything is achievable to a professional standard with either embouchure. The most interesting discussions I've seen to date have involved the fundamentals that are common to achieving the same goals with either embouchure, e.g. tone, overbends, etc.
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Rick Davis
2364 posts
Sep 17, 2013
12:49 PM
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I first started playing harp while hitchhiking around the Pacific NW in 1973. When I got back home to a small town in Wyoming (is there any other kind but small?) I took up the harp in earnest. I was all about country music: Charlie McCoy, and Don Brooks' beautiful work on Waylon Jennings' albums. Blues was a bit of a mystery to me, but McCoy's album "Harpin' the Blues" got me started. A couple years later I got into Howlin' Wolf in a big way.
But in those first days of playing I was listening to and imitating Charlie McCoy, Don Brooks, and Mickey Raphael. I was strictly lip blocking back then, and I loved the sound. I still love it.
Over the years I have picked up and incorporated some TB techniques but I am primarily a LB player. The harmonica sounds good to me that way. I wish I was better at the rhythmic percussive tongue-slap stuff because it sounds so cool.
It ain't a choice. I think we've already established that most good players use both embouchures, and both styles have their advantages. I'd like to be better at both, actually.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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REM
235 posts
Sep 17, 2013
12:57 PM
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Barbequebob,
I'm going to have to disagree with you. I use both tongue blocking and lip blocking embouchures and the opening of my lips is not considerably smaller when lip blocking (I assume for you it is, but that shouldn't lead you to generalize and assume that everyone forms the embouchure the way you do). My mouth is open the same size for both embouchures, although in slightly different shapes (but then again if I make some adjustments to my embouchure I can have my mouth open in exactly the same size and shape as when I tongue block). When I tongue block I have approximately 4 holes of the harp in my mouth, and when I lip block I also have approximately 4 holes in my mouth.
I prefer the term lip blocking because lip pursing simply does not correctly describe how I form my embouchure, there is no pursing of the lips involved. I'm simply letting my mouth hang wide open by dropping my jaw, and then placing the harp in my mouth at the correct angle. I'm not forming my lips into a smaller shape in order to play a single hole, as the term lip pursing describes. I'm not a fan of the term lip pursing because it results in a lot of beginners developing a poor embouchure, which makes it difficult to create good tone.
Last Edited by REM on Sep 17, 2013 1:23 PM
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tmf714
2033 posts
Sep 17, 2013
1:05 PM
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The two terms "lip blocking" and "lip pursing"
are two distinct and different embouchures.
Jerry Portnoy discusses the two terms in length on his "Masterclass" CD's.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Sep 17, 2013 1:06 PM
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REM
236 posts
Sep 17, 2013
1:30 PM
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I would agree that they should be considered to separate things. But the general harp players vernacular does not make a distinction. Lip pursing is used to describe any embouchure that doesn't use the tongue to isolate single notes. And, unfortunately, I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Last Edited by REM on Sep 17, 2013 1:32 PM
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Frank
2751 posts
Sep 17, 2013
1:57 PM
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I brought this subject up of "lip blocking" and "lip pursing" in Feb of 2010 on Harp-L and it caused a little stir...check it out Embouchure Terminology I remember Winslow Yerxa disliking calling it a lip block.
Last Edited by Frank on Sep 17, 2013 2:11 PM
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tmf714
2035 posts
Sep 17, 2013
2:53 PM
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From this forum a few weeks ago-my post from angelfire-
Embouchures-quoted from angelfire-
The embouchure (ahm' ba sure) is the method of applying the lips and tongue to the mouthpiece of a wind instrument, like the harmonica! If you are just learning to play I recommend you start with the Lip Block.
1) Lip Block - A variant of the pucker (see below), it's also called lipping. Tilt the harp up at the back about 30 to 45 degrees, and open your mouth pretty wide, enough to cover about 3 holes, with your upper lip about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way over the top cover. Let the harp nestle into your lower lip. What happens is that quite naturally, without really trying and without forcing it, the lower lip blocks the 2 side holes and lets the center hole sound cleanly. The open mouth position helps improve your resonance, which in turn helps in getting bends correctly, and improves your overall tone. The harp needs to be well in your mouth... Don't be shy! You can't just peck it with puckered lips and make it work right. You should be relaxed, without tightening your lips or pinching in your cheeks.
2) Pucker - The lips are pursed and pushed out, and the harp is positioned deep back into the mouth (but not are far back as for tongue blocking or U-blocking. See below). The air stream is "directed through the pucker to one hole". (Note: This is as described in many beginning harp books, ala John Gindick's. In my opinion, the pucker does not direct the air stream through the hole so much as the deep position of the harp in the mouth brings the lips into contact with the side holes not to be played.)
Note: I believe that for experienced players the pucker and lip block evolve so as to become nearly indistinguishable. In my opinion, it is easier to reach this "pucker/block" embouchure starting with the lip block than with the "pucker" mental image.
3) Tongue Block - The mouth is opened to cover 3 or more holes, and the tongue blocks the holes that are not intended to sound. The tongue block pretty much must be used for octave and split interval play . Tongue blocking also facilitates various harp playing techniques and effects, such as "slaps" and "flutters". The tongue normally blocks the holes on the left and leaves a single note on the right unblocked to sound, but the tongue can also block holes on the right leaving a single note on the left to play. It's best to learn to block and play on both sides to facilitate quick jumps and easy access to holes on both ends of the harp.
4) U-block - A variant of the Tongue Block where the tongue is (normally) rolled into a "U" shape, though the tightness of the curve varies a lot from player to player. The tip of the tongue is placed just beneath the hole to be played or even down onto the lower cover. The mouth is open to cover about 3 holes, and the tongue curves up, or is pushed up to block the left and right holes.
All bends and overblows/draws are available using any of these embouchures. There is no clear evidence of which I am aware that any embouchure allows faster or cleaner play than any other. The consensus best approach is to learn them all and use the ones you like.
Note: The tongue block is the only embouchure that offers split intervals and certain "slap" effects. (U-block techniques easily extend to become essentially tongue block techniques for blocking multiple holes.) In my opinion, for most people if only one embouchure were to be used, the tongue block would offer the most versatility. However, as mentioned above, there is no need to stick to only one embouchure, and it's best to learn as many as possible.
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REM
237 posts
Sep 17, 2013
3:05 PM
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I don't understand Winslow's argument from that thread. I haven't read all the posts yet, but as far as I can tell you never claimed that you can't play single notes by pursing/puckering your lips. You were simply stating that that is not how you form your embouchure, and the term lip blocking is a much more accurate term to describe the embouchure you're using. So his example of turning the harp vertical isn't really relevant. Of course you can purse your lips to get single notes, but that's simply not the technique that a lot of non-TB players use. With my embouchure I can not turn the harp vertical and continue playing single notes without radically changing my embouchure.
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The Iceman
1163 posts
Sep 17, 2013
3:35 PM
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Believe it or not, the terms "pursing" and "puckering" suggest a movement of the lips forward towards the harmonica as well as tensing them.
I don't like them and do not use them in teaching.
This is not the most effective way to play single note style.
Relaxed lips, harmonica brought towards the mouth and tilted upwards is a most effective and relaxed attitude that leads to more efficient use of musculature to control single notes in my experience.
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The Iceman
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REM
238 posts
Sep 17, 2013
3:58 PM
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I agree Iceman.
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Rick Davis
2365 posts
Sep 17, 2013
4:05 PM
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I agree with Iceman as well. Pursing or puckering don't describe what I do at all.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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Frank
2755 posts
Sep 17, 2013
6:34 PM
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How long has the term... lip block been circulating amongst players...I had never heard of it back then and just thought it made more sense.
There remains those staunch supporters of lip pursing who see the reference to lip blocking as an unnecessary addition to embouchure terms.
My argument was, since we already call the one embouchure (Tongue "Block")...why not just keep them more related and simply call the other one (Lip "Block")
True, they are not identical embouchures, but they are similar enough with regards to the tongue being used for blocking holes and the lip being used for blocking holes :
By the looks of the OP Adam is in the lip purse camp and Todd is referring to it as lip purse too, so Winslow seems to be in good company so far?
Last Edited by Frank on Sep 17, 2013 6:42 PM
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harpdude61
1825 posts
Sep 18, 2013
3:10 AM
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REM! Thanks on both counts! I'm not sure why BBQ Bob thought I didn't understand something. I guarantee my lip blocked embouchure is as big, open and loose as any TBer.
I've been saying that lip blocker is different for a long time and no one ever comments except tmf.
Lip pursing is a kissy shape with the harp pretty much level. It requires using the muscles in the lips and right behind the lips. You go from single note to chords by opening the kissy shape.
I teach lip blocking by telling students to imagine falling asleep sitting up and the very relaxed jaw and mouth falls open. Put the harp in and tilt the back up. The lower lip blocks the unused holes. It's very efficient to go from a single note to chord with a relaxed lower lip blocking the hole. You can't go near as deep, big, and open with the harp level and in the pursed/kissy shape.
The lower lip blocks the holes for lip blocking while the corners of the mouth block the holes for lip pursing. Very different techniques and sounds IMHO
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LIP RIPPER
699 posts
Sep 18, 2013
3:22 AM
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Well, I've been on a musical burn out lately and I haven't stopped in for a while. And as soon as I do I see that some things never change. The dead horse is still being beaten.
LR
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Jehosaphat
547 posts
Sep 18, 2013
3:53 AM
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I have my jaw dropped,chest and throat relaxed and open.Tongue laying on the floor of my mouth.
Put the harp into my mouth(level) and without using tongue or lips i can pull a single note(plus bend) on the first 3 holes.
What the hell is that embouchure called?
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BronzeWailer
1143 posts
Sep 18, 2013
5:04 AM
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I was thinking the other day what about those people with the split tongue modification. What kind of tricks could they do? Use Tb on one side of the mouth and lip on the other...
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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harpdude61
1826 posts
Sep 18, 2013
5:08 AM
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LR...don't open the thread, don't read it, don't waste your time....Most forum members that don't want to beat a dead horse just dont look for the horse...pretty simple.....a8ckfn
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Sep 18, 2013 5:10 AM
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Grey Owl
304 posts
Sep 18, 2013
5:22 AM
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Jehosophat. I guess it's for the want of a better term the all embracing Lip pursing. Not a great term as it seems to suggest a kissy shape (which I'm sure is what a lot of new players use anyway)
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It's probable that a lot of players can adapt their style to simulate some of the techniques of LP,LB,TB etc., whatever their base technique is.
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I use my tongue a lot for articulation anyway on faster passages and also for Octaves, splits and flutters. What I can't do is keep my tongue planted on the harp and do blow and draw bends and OB, OD and I'm a bit long in the tooth to consider re-learning all these techniques TB.
I don't know if I'm correct but the tasty TB 'slap' sound is created by a chord or part thereof being played and then the tongue coming down on the holes on one side of the 'target hole' to be played whilst the lips on the opposite side narrow the embouchure so a single note sounds.
I have tried to emulate this 'slap' LP/LB style (still work in progress in refining it) by grabbing a chord with a wide relaxed embouchure then narrowing the embouchure quickly with the side of the lips to create a slap.
I posted this short sample in a recent thread on the topic.
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Sep 18, 2013 5:46 AM
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The Iceman
1165 posts
Sep 18, 2013
5:25 AM
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BronzeWailer...
The split tongue technique (Howard Levy calls it "Slight of Tongue") is basically full TB with control of the left and right side independently.
This includes the ability to play, for instance, a 2 - 5 inhale split and bend only the left side down a whole step to create an octave, as well as holding a single note on one side while the other side moves from note to note.
Howard, Carlos del Junco, myself and RJ Harman (to whom I taught this technique) can do it, as well as others, although it is not too common amongst players...yet.
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The Iceman
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harpdude61
1827 posts
Sep 18, 2013
6:03 AM
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BronzeWailer...
Did you mean the people that have the cut made in their tongue similar to a snake??.lol...The possibilites are endless!!
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Todd Parrott
1152 posts
Sep 18, 2013
7:07 AM
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I use the tongue-blocking technique that Iceman describes on the 2 & 5 draw, as well as 4 & 6, and 3 & 5. On 3 & 5 you can place a half-step bend on the 3 and play that along with the 5 draw. I also use 2 & 4 draw, and 1 & 3 draw - both good for country or fiddle style licks. If you listen to the very end of the jam I did on the most recent Spiers video, you can hear this technique.
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isaacullah
2505 posts
Sep 18, 2013
7:28 AM
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How about a two-stage hierarchical division? The first division could be between "Lip Based Embouchures" (LBE) and "Tongue Based Embouchures" (TBE). Then, under LBE you would have "Tense" and "Loose" (i.e., TLBE and LLBE), and under TBE you could have "Rolled" and "Flat" (i.e. RTBE and FTBE).
Then we could all say "Oh yeah, well I use mainly an LLBE, but sometimes switch to a FTBE. I really find a TLBE to make my tone too thin, and my tongue doesn't want to get all up into a RTBE, so I can't do that one at all".
:)
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