First let me say that I believe learning as many techniques as possible can only add to your playing. I am a lip blocker that only uses tongue blocking for octaves, which I do use a lot in 2nd, 3rd, and 5th positions.
I am a work in progress on side TBing. I so want to get those flutters and all the good stuff that goes with tongue blocking into my arsenal.
Please don't respond by how great TBing is or how great the tone is or what the all time greats did. We all know. This is in no way a post that slams TBers or says one is better than the other.
It just seems that most Lip Blockers on the forum agree that TBing is awesome. While very few Tongue Blockers have good things to say about Lip Blocked playing.
One video on youtube has had a bigger impact on my playing than any other. When I first started and I watched Adam do this, I thought it was so cool. He is doing some neat rhythmic stuff while lip pursing as he calls it. No,it does not sound like TB flutters..not supposed to.
Here is the video and below the video is a sample of my playing. The intro is lip blocked. The solo at 1:23 is what Adam's video taught me. I'm using 4 draw bent, releasing to 3,4,5 draw chord. The only time I TB in the song is the three phrases at 1:39 using 3/6 blow octave. The exchange with the guitar at 3:11 is also pursed.
My style was molded by one of the all-time greats. Thanks Adam!
www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Aug 27, 2013 3:03 AM
Gussow was younger and prettier back then. Six years of wrangling blues harmonica players on this forum has aged the man terribly.
Harpdude, I thank you for your kind words. Truth is, my style was significantly formed by interaction with Nat Riddles. He taught me TB in a serious way, but I didn't realize that he was playing almost everything, including bends, that way. So I spent a lot of time trying to reproduce his TB'd sound--some rhythmic things, and the sound of his bends--with my lip-pursing technique.
The other major influence on my sound was trying to get the legato note-flow and expressive yelps of certain sax players, especially Houston Person, Stanley Turrentine, and Hank Crawford.
Here are some Bt's under 2 min for anyone who would like to have some fun...
And regardless of a player's "embouchure's" (which means they can choose and use more than one) to execute their musical expressions....
Ultimately it is the players preference for the particular blocking palate chosen at any given moment which is the most important :)
So whatever embouchure it is you are utilizing or mixing together - they are all beautiful in their own way!
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 27, 2013 5:41 AM
I rarely post here out of my lack of experience but I love Harpdudes comment. I find a combination of embouchures to work best for me and have always appreciated Adams video on the topic. Ronnie S. also has a great video on his approach to this topic. I may be wrong but I'm not sure Beuford Chapel Breakdown or Kick and Stomp can be played at the same intensity (as Adam does) tongue blocked only. I'd love to see it though if someone does.
I'd be keen to have a go but not sure what the rules are. Is it just a 2 minute blow-out using whatever embouchure you feel like? Didn't quite understand it.
Last Edited by tookatooka on Aug 28, 2013 2:42 PM
groyster that is the whole point of this thread and has pretty much been agreed upon by everyone....my hope was that the two schools would share and we could learn from each other (thanks tmf). They are not the same and one is not right and the other wrong. Anyone that thinks thinks there is nothing to learn from someone different than themselves about anything in life is a fool.
I had a lesson early on with Pierre Beauregard and he emphasized learning to TB - from the side and especially to punch/slap a millisecond of the chord before the single note. Playing LP was always the obvious and natural way to play so it has always been both for me. I suspect that learning TB from the beginning made it easier. I'm pretty sure that if I'd worked for years playing LP and getting what I wanted then TB would be really awkward. My inclination towards TB hasn't helped my speed much but working with Jasons videos has REALLY helped.
Thank you harpdude61 for bringing cool reason to the TB/LB debate. Soon after picking up the harmonica I came up against this concept that 'real harp players TB every note'. It was so widely said that I started down this road, but fortunately soon came across AG's ideas about hybrid TB/LB and personally now I use both and like it. As you say, everyone talks about the good things to be had from TB, but not much is said about the benefits of LB. For me, it's about the feel. Playing any instrument isn't just about the sound, it's about the feel and I find that's especially true of the harp. I like the feel of making those single-note draw and blow bends LB.
Good posts litt and cham....If your style is completely one or the other that is cool too. As long as YOU dig what you are doing then you are totally correct. I will say that switching between the two is not the big chore that some make it seem to be.I play the TB octaves above and it's no problem going right back to pursing. Still, the side TB style is a goal of mine.
Good posts litt and cham....If your style is completely one or the other that is cool too. As long as YOU dig what you are doing then you are totally correct. I will say that switching between the two is not the big chore that some make it seem to be.I play the TB octaves above and it's no problem going right back to pursing. Still, the side TB style is a goal of mine.
Hey guys, sorry I'm a little late to the party, but I've been over in the middle east doing archaeology stuff for the last few weeks... Basically, I think this the most healthy and helpful post on this "debate" I've seen so far. I think the "us vs. them" mentality of these types of debates on this forum (which I've been guilty of myself!) has been decidedly unhelpful, and may have even been a bit hurtful in the past. Techniques like these shouldn't be bashed simply because one doesn't use them, learned from someone who didn't use them, used them and not liked them, etc. I think it's much more helpful to examine WHY you play why you do, and to investigate it as a personal trajectory that may or may not be good for someone else rather than to take it as a dogma.
So Kudos to Harpdude for starting this thread! Here's my little contribution:
I think I'll let folks listen before I say what technique I'm using here...:)
Great to hear you chime in my friend! Great tune. Love the dark sound. Bends spot on. I think you are lip blocking and doing the lip slaps as we called them. Crisp, clean and effective for this piece. I dig it!
Thanks Isaac! The reason I think this is because I believe I hear a pitch above and below the main note you are playing on the slaps.
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Sep 01, 2013 6:42 PM
I like that Isaac! You have a nice Dan Kaplan style groove going on there. I'm with harpdude, I believe they're lip slaps and you do them very well. ----------
And now for something completely different. THIS embouchure... Not LP or TBing or even U-blocking. This guy definitely uses way too much breath force at one point.
Seriously, does no one else have this issue? It's like a video game trying to hit the post button, or actually keep my writing on the viewable screen. Just when those back tracks get posted ----------
I hereby challenge any full-time TB player to play the following solo, at any tempo, with convincing legato seamlessness. Time to throw down, gentlemen (and ladies).
No need to memorize the whole solo, you fulltime TB monsters. Just show me how you handle the 19-20 sec. and 35 sec. point, each of which has an overblow or two. Make it seamless. I'd like to hear the 39-40 sec. point, too. I don't doubt that full-time TBers can overblow, but I remain dubious that they can toss them this smoothly into the mix.
PS: This excerpt is from the forthcoming Blues Doctors album.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 02, 2013 6:37 AM
I'm still not comfortable with the term "lip blocked." It makes sense, I guess, for the specific technique described in my early video, above, but 99% of the time, at least on the upper holes, I'm just lip-pursing.
@catfish: The solo I've posted is 97% LP. At 16 sec. and 37 sec., I TB.
Funny discussion though. Can only comment with a personal story I hope some of you can relate to. I'm in the middle of a major transition.
To me, the tone you here on that flip flop fly recording of the OP is the exact reason I'm giving TB a go (no offense, Duane, its a high harp and some fast stuff, bound to be thin-toned when played by relative newbies like us). I got annoyed by my playing because of it, and I wanted a cure. I only looked at TB because I couldn't play some of Kim Wilson's licks I was trying to copy, and I knew he was TB it. Still it didn't click though. I just kept LP them, or doing some half-wayed octave solutions without bending TB. It was only after not playing at all for a month, until I realized that I didn't like my tone consistently. There were always those squeecs...
After two weeks now, I cannot bend as well as I can LP, but I am making promising progress. I do hit consistent overblows with it (not as easily as with LP, but surprisingly good). What do you know..perhaps I can do this! Tone's really sounding quite good already, and playing is fun once more! It helps deepening my tone when I LP as well. A VERY welcomed epiphenomenon indeed!
On a sidenote: Haven't heard much exclusive LP fortes so far. The thing I thought this topic was about.....
I know of two, and would love to hear more! 1) fast runs are easier because the tongue isn't in the way. Cannot comment on weather that's just a getting used-to thing though. I hope a good TB'er takes a stab at Adam's solo! No one else can make it sound like he can of course, because it's his style alone. But still. 2) tut tut tut sounds on - most markedly - a 3/4 double stop. Can't be done TB.... Not by me anyway :)
Hey guys! Thanks! And great guesses. Yes, I'm Lip Blocking and using the "lip slap" for the chords. You are right that the sound of the chords gives it away (LB chords slaps have the single note centered in the triad, whereas TB chord slaps have it as the highest note in the triad). Actually, when I was working that tune up, I originally was playing it 100% Tongue Blocked, but I actually didn't like the tone of the TB chord slaps for this particular song, as IMO it sounded too "strong", and i wanted this song to sound pathetic and wheezy (it's a dirge after all!)...
@GrewOwl: First, as a fellow disciple of Dan Kaplan, I have to say that that tune sounds amazing! You really are nailing his tone. The difference between the two is so subtle that I doubt a non harp player (and perhaps even some harp players that don't play a chording style) would ever be able to discern it. IMO, based on the relationship of the chords and single notes as I described above, I'm thinking that #1 is the TB one. Of course, I could be totally wrong, as the difference is really subtle because you are really nailing it here! :)
Edited to add: I think there's another auditory clue to tell the difference between LB and TB slaps. The LB slap uses the tongue like a piston to get the chord, so it's very defined at it's start and end, and so it's very percussive. The LB slap uses the lips to widen the embouchure to get the chord, so it sounds less defined at it's start and end. It sort of "opens up" into the chord, and so is a little less percussive, or perhaps better to say that it's a different type of percussiveness than the TB chord... ----------
tmf and adam: great examples of sounds/tones that can only/best be achieved via TB and LB respectively. These two examples perfectly illustrate the need to examine how you want to sound and how best to achieve it. There are plenty of things that can be got either way, but there are some things that are BEST gotten one way over the other... Also, great songs from both of ya! :) ----------
Isaac said: 'tmf and adam: great examples of sounds/tones that can only/best be achieved via TB and LB respectively.'......I agree.
I’d better come clean as I’ve been a bit naughty in adding that second sample using the same embouchure but with tongue flutters at the end. You were right on the money ther regarding the no discernable differences Isaac.
Both pieces (apart from the flutters) were completely lip pursed using the technique shown by Adam in his video (played on a Bb Marine Band).
As for the lip terminology I really don’t like either expression. Lip purse sounds like a kiss coming at you from your elderly, whiskery, Aunt when you were a kid and Lip block sounds like something you’d plaster on your lips to protect them from the sun.
As for Adams solo, I think that’s going to be nigh on impossible to play with any damn embouchure!! ….but it would be nice to hear someone try;)
It would be good to have a common tune for anyone that wants to have a go at. Like that great video recently posted of the 5 versions of Amazing grace.
Not as competition thing but just for education and general interest.
I agree Greyowl-I was simply following the lead of Frank posting in this and another thread-. I can also post a song with my own backing track I am fairly sure that most would find difficult to play along to.
@tmf714. Yes, I'm all for this sharing of techniques/styles, it serves as an inspiration to try new licks, approaches. Like Isaac I was so impressed with Dan Kaplan's work that I had to try learn what he was doing. It was really good to hear Isaac's song inspired by Dan. It's just my cup of tea...very UK that:)
There is always something in a players original or own version of a song that is difficult to truly capture, but that's a good thing as it would be boring to listen over and over to cloned songs. ----------
Kudzu....maybe we can define a distinction between lip blocking and lip pursing. The reason I call it lip blocking is because I tilt the back of the harp up so much that I am actually lip blocking the holes on either side of the single note I am playing. Since you are one of the many fine players that hold the harp pretty much level, the lip purse is probably a better description. Thoughts?
Willy...I agree that my sample is not the Chicago tone. I'm using a 57, a HG50 and Sonic Stomp. Sorry if you think it is shrill, but my bands fans seem to dig it. I play a lot of over bends on other tunes as well as first position on the top end of the harp. Just my preference.
Adam and Jason both play some really quick passages lip pursed...with overblows, bends, and other nuances. Seems like a lot of what Sugar Blue and Popper do on the high end fast is using what is available just by moving through with very little bending of any type. Still good stuff. I relate to Adam's challenge.
Embouchures-quoted from angelfire- The embouchure (ahm' ba sure) is the method of applying the lips and tongue to the mouthpiece of a wind instrument, like the harmonica! If you are just learning to play I recommend you start with the Lip Block. 1) Lip Block - A variant of the pucker (see below), it's also called lipping. Tilt the harp up at the back about 30 to 45 degrees, and open your mouth pretty wide, enough to cover about 3 holes, with your upper lip about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way over the top cover. Let the harp nestle into your lower lip. What happens is that quite naturally, without really trying and without forcing it, the lower lip blocks the 2 side holes and lets the center hole sound cleanly. The open mouth position helps improve your resonance, which in turn helps in getting bends correctly, and improves your overall tone. The harp needs to be well in your mouth... Don't be shy! You can't just peck it with puckered lips and make it work right. You should be relaxed, without tightening your lips or pinching in your cheeks.
2) Pucker - The lips are pursed and pushed out, and the harp is positioned deep back into the mouth (but not are far back as for tongue blocking or U-blocking. See below). The air stream is "directed through the pucker to one hole". (Note: This is as described in many beginning harp books, ala John Gindick's. In my opinion, the pucker does not direct the air stream through the hole so much as the deep position of the harp in the mouth brings the lips into contact with the side holes not to be played.)
Note: I believe that for experienced players the pucker and lip block evolve so as to become nearly indistinguishable. In my opinion, it is easier to reach this "pucker/block" embouchure starting with the lip block than with the "pucker" mental image.
3) Tongue Block - The mouth is opened to cover 3 or more holes, and the tongue blocks the holes that are not intended to sound. The tongue block pretty much must be used for octave and split interval play . Tongue blocking also facilitates various harp playing techniques and effects, such as "slaps" and "flutters". The tongue normally blocks the holes on the left and leaves a single note on the right unblocked to sound, but the tongue can also block holes on the right leaving a single note on the left to play. It's best to learn to block and play on both sides to facilitate quick jumps and easy access to holes on both ends of the harp.
4) U-block - A variant of the Tongue Block where the tongue is (normally) rolled into a "U" shape, though the tightness of the curve varies a lot from player to player. The tip of the tongue is placed just beneath the hole to be played or even down onto the lower cover. The mouth is open to cover about 3 holes, and the tongue curves up, or is pushed up to block the left and right holes.
All bends and overblows/draws are available using any of these embouchures. There is no clear evidence of which I am aware that any embouchure allows faster or cleaner play than any other. The consensus best approach is to learn them all and use the ones you like.
Note: The tongue block is the only embouchure that offers split intervals and certain "slap" effects. (U-block techniques easily extend to become essentially tongue block techniques for blocking multiple holes.) In my opinion, for most people if only one embouchure were to be used, the tongue block would offer the most versatility. However, as mentioned above, there is no need to stick to only one embouchure, and it's best to learn as many as possible.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Sep 02, 2013 10:40 AM
Cont.- Also note: It is possible to "pucker/block" out of either corner of the mouth, and it is possible to lip block on either side of a single hole to be played. These modifications to the "standard" embouchures can add speed and accuracy since less harp/head movement is required to jump to a non-contiguous note. For the pucker/block, the harp is "twisted" from side to side to bring either corner of the mouth into play. For the tongue block, the tongue is moved left or right to cover/expose the proper notes. For U-blocking, the tongue can be moved from side to side to select individual notes with little or no movement of the harp relative to the mouth.
Harpdude It's interesting to note the different approaches to embouchure to acheive the common target.
Funnily enough, my method is totally the opposite of yours as I tilt the harp down at thirty degrees and allow the airstream to flow down into the throat via the upper chamber in my mouth.
Both my lips close in sharply on the target hole from the initial relaxed chord grabbing embouchure. I feel as if my lips go from an elliptical shape to a circle thus shutting off the outer holes with the sides and bottom of the lips with the top lip being dominant in creating the 'slap'.
I've commented before on your 'Flip Flop Fly' which sounds cool. ----------
