harpdude61
1807 posts
Sep 02, 2013
11:52 AM
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Owl! That blows me away!With tmfs post and yours we know of several variations on "lipping". I can do a variation of lip blocking by going from single note to double stop, but do not move the harp as tmfs post describes.... which is a great.post by the way.
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SuperBee
1400 posts
Sep 02, 2013
2:34 PM
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Thank heavens for page 2. now finally I don't have this problem with the page just growing ever longer after that post of frank with the backing tracks. that was really difficult. I'm restricted to iOS at the mo'. Lip blocking hey. It's a funny thing...
I started out doing the lip purse thing like AG demonstrates, and gradually the close side of the harp started to rotate to where I was mainly blocking with my big fat top lip. I noticed a few people do similar but most advocate bottom lip. Have you seen Jon gindick play with a rack? I can't watch his top lip reaching for the harp; it's like a little elephant trunk...00h, makes me feel very strange...a bit nauseous...
Anyway...a guy suggested I try alternating chords and single notes and I gave it a try on oh susannah, to get a waltz-time kinda thing. Horrible slobbery experience it was, but I think that's how it started with the tongue. I never set out to be a tongue block player. I remember trying to emulate norton buffalo on yellow rose of Texas, and at some point I found I could get better articulation on that, and Dixie, if I used my tongue. For a while that's all I did, just tongue slaps to articulate notes on the high end, and gradually I got more accurate with it. Still I didn't think to do it on the low notes because bending would be impossible.
One day I accidentally bent 3 draw with tongue on comb. It really was an accident. I messed about with it until I could do it at will, but I still didn't realise it was legit. A pro even told me no-one does that.
By the time I encountered David Barrett and discovered that heaps of players do it, I was pretty used to using my tongue, and within a week of listening to David I was able to bend with fair control, at least as good as I'd even been with Lipping.
To me now, it's hard to imagine not tongue blocking. Pulls and slaps are just how I play. I still have a LOT of development left to go with splits, and while I can blow bend tongue on from A harp to C harp, there is a lot of room for improvement there. I am only just starting to get near OBs, but it's not a focus just yet. I'm just at a point where sometimes I wish I could make 'that' note in 'this' range,
Coming back to lipping after several years of virtually exclusively TB, I found I no longer had the top lip embouchure, but could do the bottom lip thing no problem. I've lost the ability to bend the lowest notes strongly with lip blocking, although I know it's just rusty. When I try OB, I do it tongue-on. Since i can't do it anyway, figure I may as well learn with my default embouchure. I dunno if that's wise.
I don't think there's much of a tonal difference between lip and tongue as such. I used to play lipped and I loved it, now I can't imagine not using my tongue. I just been trying to lipp some fast articulations lately, which I can't quite manage tongue blocked.
That seems to be the main thing lipping has going for it? Speedy articulation?
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FreeWilly
324 posts
Sep 02, 2013
3:13 PM
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Duane, I really applaud the way you got that band to work. And if you like what you hear, that's key. To each his own I believe it's called.
I like your observation about sugar blue's runs btw. As Adam stated in another topic, he does play a lot of 9876 kind of riffs. It is a question I pose as well: can 1st pos. things be done TB? Perhaps Dennis Gruenling can take up Adam's challenge. That would be extremely cool :)
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SuperBee
1401 posts
Sep 02, 2013
3:38 PM
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Can 1st position things be done tongue blocked? I guess I'll display my ignorance, but why would there be doubt about this?
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FreeWilly
325 posts
Sep 02, 2013
3:52 PM
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Let me rephrase that: can fast bendy glissando 1st position things be done TB as well as LP. Many pro's seem to switch (like Kim Wilson) to do this, or so I've read.
Harpdude suggested, that fast TB riffs up there usually seem to leave out the bends (for example sugar blue). Makes one wonder if there is a necessary reason for this. That's what I meant in my previous post.
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SuperBee
1402 posts
Sep 02, 2013
3:57 PM
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Oh, ok. Yeah, maybe so.
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BronzeWailer
1130 posts
Sep 02, 2013
4:09 PM
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All I can say is the examples all sound excellent, so however you guys do it, it's working. Thanks for posting the soundcloud samples, Grey Owl. Enjoyed your playing.
I am also trying to learn tongue blocking and improving my technique, and tone and timing... sigh...
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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isaacullah
2484 posts
Sep 03, 2013
7:54 AM
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Thanks tmf, Kingley and Bronzewailer!
@GreyOwl: That was a nasty little trick to play on us! :) I was having such a hard time trying to distinguish between them! In the end I think I was "forcing" myself to hear differences that weren't there... Very interesting psychological experiment! :)
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Grey Owl
291 posts
Sep 03, 2013
11:37 AM
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Isaac:- Apologies. Man, I feel guilty now!! I wasn't trying to be devious, I just realised I liked the first part of the 1st sample best and the second part of the second and so added the 2nd sample at the last minute.
EDIT:- Thanks Bronzewailer
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Sep 04, 2013 12:42 AM
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Frank
2693 posts
Sep 03, 2013
7:03 PM
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I agree with Tom and Owl that a central track would be most helpful for educational purposes and once it got worn out a different one can be posted to learn from :)
While we're at it though, here is an original tune from a few years back that I entered into David Barrett's harp contest he had... and since Rick estrin and Mark Hummel were judges, I figured I'd throw in the kitchen sink as far as embouchures and such because I wanted to make a little impression...Mark liked what I did more then Rick and Dave thought parts of it was pretty cool. Jodan, won the contest in the end with a kickbutt original Rumba tune :)
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1847
1039 posts
Sep 03, 2013
9:32 PM
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--frank that was the bomb!
that was better than the any thing the judges have ever done
no wonder they did not like it.
i now hate you ... you're disqualified! --------
master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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kudzurunner
4238 posts
Sep 04, 2013
5:08 AM
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Frank: I can't speak to the question of which embouchures you're using, but I love the cut. You've got a thousand ideas about how to create melodies in third position and most of them are far beyond my own melodic imagination in that position. The ONLY critique that I think somebody might level as your recording, as a whole, is that you tend to start every 12-bar sequence fresh, rather than breaking through the 12th bar line and soaring aloft and letting emotion drive the song. It's the equivalent on Friday night fights to Teddy Atlas saying "He's finally beginning to let his hands go." You don't quite let your hands go. You keep things shapely--in fact, VERY shapely, to the point where your internal logic on each 12-bar sequence is relatively similar. In a sense, you ace the final exam for David Barrett's IMPROVISING BLUES HARMONICA, if that book had a final exam, because your phrase-logic tracks the guidance that he offers. What I love, in any case, are the moments where you come across truly cool/weird note combinations. Lots of interesting stuff, all the way through.
I'm a fan.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 04, 2013 5:09 AM
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Frank
2694 posts
Sep 04, 2013
6:28 AM
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GoodMorning 47 and kudzu,very kind to be so nice about that tune. Adam,You basically touched on every aspect of the 3 judges main critiques. Mark liked the slight weirdness about it and Rick questioned the flow and stiffness, while Dave would of prefered a better 24 bar opening but enjoyed the phrasing :)
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tookatooka
3465 posts
Sep 04, 2013
8:33 AM
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Yeah! Nice playing Frank. Kudos to you. If I understand Adams comment properly, is he saying that you don't need to resolve at the end of the 12th bar but continue the melody through the resolution point and beyond to make the melody flow though 24 or 36 etc bars?
Melody playing is my interest and I just wanted to make sure I read the comment correctly. Thanks.
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Frank
2697 posts
Sep 04, 2013
9:19 AM
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Thanks Tooka - I believe you are correct in your understanding and adam also would've like to of heard more of a raw expression of improvisational freedom - less formulated... or as Rick said - if I remember correctly - he said, at times it sounded more like an exercise of notes rather than an actual complete song.
When I created the tune - I was thinking of there being different horn players in a band and as each twelve rolled around the next player took it. Like when watching a big band - a horn player will stand up do his thing, sit down and another guy will stand up and do his, that was my mind set.
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tookatooka
3466 posts
Sep 04, 2013
9:28 AM
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Thanks Frank. Well it sounded mighty good to me. All this talk of lip block, tongue block, U block is all OK but if you haven't got a decent melody you haven't got jack no matter what technique you use. IMO.
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isaacullah
2486 posts
Sep 04, 2013
11:23 AM
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Frank! Yes indeed that sounded mighty fine! Now that I'm all settled in PGH, we'll definitely have to get together and blow some harp!
@greyowl: No need to feel guilty! I was just bemused to see how much my own psyche can influence what I think I hear! That's on me! :)
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Frank
2699 posts
Sep 05, 2013
4:51 AM
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Isaac...sounds like fun, if you can make it before november you'll be able to grab some fresh figs outta my trees in the front yard. I have four of them and their smothered with mouth watering fruits...If you make it this month you'll get some zucchini, lettuce, radishes, chard, beans, beets and of course the tomatoes bursting with harvest :)
Last Edited by Frank on Sep 05, 2013 4:59 AM
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chromaticblues
1458 posts
Sep 05, 2013
8:50 AM
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Jeez Frank and here I thought Pburg just had the Steelers!
Last Edited by chromaticblues on Sep 05, 2013 11:40 AM
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Frank
2700 posts
Sep 05, 2013
9:17 AM
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Who'd a thunk uh, a lowly ole urban farmer can toot the blues, hahahahahaha
Don't forget the Bucs...81-58, 1st in NL Central Division
Pittsburgh Pirates
And the Pens
Of course the famous Centipede Saloon too - where all the magic happens... here is one of my biggest fans :)
Last Edited by Frank on Sep 05, 2013 9:19 AM
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Sherwin
82 posts
Sep 05, 2013
6:04 PM
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Frank, do those guys clean your harps for you?
That critter looks like it could carry a harp away if it wanted to.
Sherwin
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BronzeWailer
1131 posts
Sep 05, 2013
7:42 PM
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That was swinging Frank! Wow. I listened again after reading your explanation. Very cool.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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1847
1049 posts
Sep 05, 2013
8:42 PM
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The ONLY critique that I think somebody might level as your recording, as a whole, is that you tend to start every 12-bar sequence fresh, rather than breaking through the 12th bar line and soaring aloft and letting emotion drive the song
sometimes but not always, when you get to the last two bars of a progression "the turnaround"... the last two bars are the "one" chord...sometimes,but not always, the first four bars of a progression are the "one" chord. so you have 6 measures of the "one"chord.. nothing has changed. but instead of thinking were are at an ending.. then a new beginning you can approach it as
just the same chord! almost like a boogie. by just changing your
perspective, and nothing else it can lead to "new" ideas.
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
Last Edited by 1847 on Sep 05, 2013 8:43 PM
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jpmcbride
4 posts
Sep 05, 2013
9:34 PM
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How annoying. I typed a really long post on my experiences TB compared to LB. Then I mistyped the spam blocker text string and my post disappeared!
Too tired to retype the entire thing.
Anyway, its a great discussion and I'm glad to see it handled like this rather than in the usual contentious way.
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Jim McBride
www.bottle-o-blues.com
Last Edited by jpmcbride on Sep 05, 2013 9:37 PM
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1847
1050 posts
Sep 05, 2013
10:57 PM
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mcbride, if you hold the command key down
then hit "a" it will highlight what you just typed
then hold down the command key and hit "C"
it will save everything you typed
if the captca gets you.... click your mouse where you would type and hold down the command key and hit V
voila you are back in business...hope this helps
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
Last Edited by 1847 on Sep 05, 2013 10:58 PM
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isaacullah
2491 posts
Sep 06, 2013
8:37 AM
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Frank, that sounds awesome! Let me consult my schedule (read: let me talk to the missus) and see what kind of free time I have during the next few weekends... I'll shoot you an e-mail and see if we can arrange something!
BTW, we've got some of those centipedes in our apartment too. Scary little buggers, but I'm told they don't bite humans, and that they eat other little critters that may be hiding in your corners! So, I say live an let live! :)
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Frank
2703 posts
Sep 06, 2013
8:45 AM
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Sounds good Isaac - I would never hurt one of those buggers, they are literally my audience. On few occasions, I must admit though, that my wife demands that I knock a few off now and then if they get a little too rowdy...She would rather me catch them and throw em outside, but those things are wizards of escape. Our cat Tommy, God rest his soul - would catch them with his eyes closed and eat the damn things, all that would be left are the legs he's leave behind :)
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The Iceman
1140 posts
Sep 06, 2013
9:59 AM
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Frank...liked that recording. Some real interesting ideas floating around.
My comment.....the solo sounded a little soft and squishy. In other words, I was looking for a bit more razor sharp distinction and definition.
However, if you style is soft/rounded, then that's just your uniqueness.
What I like is filtered through my own sensibilities = no more or less important than anyone else's opinion.
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The Iceman
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Frank
2706 posts
Sep 06, 2013
10:12 AM
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Yes your right Larry...it is a mindset with what you want to accomplish with each song, soft/round or the opposite etc. At times I'll zero in on even getting the lower harps to have a razors edge to them - though higher harps have that awesome sharp distinction to them that is outta sight... :)
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