Kingley's comment in the Nic Clark thread got me thinking. Here's what he said:"For the vast majority of jammers though this isn't the case. Most jam scenarios I've seen/been to entail the band getting louder when the harp begins to solo and crowding it so much that it can't breathe. Most are so guitar orientated and at the rock end of the blues spectrum, that they can't even begin to comprehend what a harp player needs in the way of backing from the band." This is exactly the problem I'm having with the band I'm in. I can't verbalize what I need from the band. Is there any hope that I can turn things around? How do I explain it to them? Even though my bandmates are friends,I'm thinking about throwing in the towel. Most of the time,I feel like I'm running as fast as I can while shouting at the top of my lungs. Not my idea of making music.
The short answer is yes, guitarists can learn just like anyone else.
The longer answer is that they can only learn if they want to learn. Many guitar players and other musicians including a lot of harmonica players are more interested in the "look at me ma" syndrome than in actually making good music. They tend to be looking for their solo instead of being in the service of the song. In the past I have explained different grooves to players and even given them audio examples. They seem to take it on board at the time. However once in front of an audience they usually just revert to type. In a similar way that you can tell a child over and over again not to do something and they just keep doing it regardless. It can be even worse if you have two guitar players in the band, They will often get into ego battles with each other and just end up creating a wall of noise instead of making good music. The problem is often further compounded by drunken audiences, friends, family, wives, girlfriends and boyfriends who keep on telling these players how great they are instead of being honest with them and being helpfully critical of performances.
As you can probably tell from my post, it's been and continues to be an almost constant source of annoyance to me. So much so that I have completely given up playing a few times and go off and do something else instead. Unfortunately if I want to be able to play music with other people I have no option but to put up with this crap. On the positive side you do get moments where a new player enters a scene for a fleeting moment who "gets it". You also sometimes get moments where everything just gels and sounds wonderful.
The only advice I can offer you is to give them copies of songs you want to do, so everyone is working from the same version. Try getting them to listen to what the guitar is doing during the song and not just in the solo. Good luck!
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 01, 2013 9:54 AM
It's not called "training", it's called "leading". And the question is, "can you lead the band?". ---------- Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree Jinx. Leading a band is one thing. Getting players to play what is required is another thing entirely. If you have competent players who listen to what's being played and that are in the service of the song. Then leading a band is a relatively easy task. If however the players in question don't, won't or can't play what's required to service the song. then it doesn't matter how much leading you do. What's then required is training and learning. This is why it's called "learning your craft". Which is something that sadly a lot a jammers don't seem to bother with. I've played with many people who don't even understand what a basic 12 bar structure is, let alone a 2-5 turnaround or take it from the 5, stay on the 1, etc, etc. Your average jammer often has the musical skills of a castrated gnat. You can't really lead someone like that.
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 01, 2013 11:13 AM
The best way to change beliefs is to change practice. Record the issue, playback for them, discuss it, and come to consensus about the benefit of supporting harp differently (it might help to have examples of how it SHOULD sound).
If you can get them to try it, then you've won whether they like the change or not. Hopefully, if they're worth playing with, they'll realize this route is MUCH better for everyone.
Changing a belief is way hard. You can try to appeal to reason and research, but most people will be very stubborn unless you either find a way to force a change effectively or make them feel like it was their idea. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
Bang! Iceman hit it deed nuts. This is what I tell people that constantly ask me why aren't you playing. Answer: I haven't been able to find anyone latley that I like to listen to. Musician's are like actors. Some musician's can play many different rolls. Most musician's do what they do! If you like what they do than proceed. It's like casting!
I've found the easiest way to train guitar players is to hook a remote control button up that creates a short in their amp.
Use the following settings:
1- for playing too loud. 2- for playing over your solo. 3- for playing in the wrong key. 4- for playing in the wrong key loudly. 5- for playing in the wrong key over your solo. 6- for playing in the wrong key over your solo loudly. 7- for taking all best looking groupies. 8- for sleeping with your girlfriend. 9- for sleeping with the venue owners underaged daughter. 10- should be reserved for drummers (although it can be difficult to get them close enough to the wires). Never turn it to 11. That's what happened to Spinal Taps drummers.
:)
edit: Under extreme circumstances, you can communicate with the guitar player, but remember to move your harmonica away from your mouth first. Most guitar players will need to try to read your lips- all those years of playing too loud take a toll on their hearing. Giving them samples of the sort of thing they should play is a good place to start. Build consensus about what you want the sound to be and learn guitar speak. They, for the most part, will not learn harmonica speak. When you have an exception to that rule, you've found a keeper.
---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
Last Edited by nacoran on Aug 01, 2013 5:35 PM
In The Harmonica Club, we have had a LOT of guitar players come and go. You're problem is that you are trying to make music with friends and you do not want to get another group of friends. So though I agree with Iceman's comment,"you either like how the guitar player plays or you don't", that statement does not solve your problem.
You are trying to do what I do with our club. Take what you got and see if you can make it work. Now you are back to LEADING and TEACHING. Are you up to both??? Leading can be difficult with friends. I "assume" you are not paying them, or are you? Who brings in the money? The golden rule applies. "The man with the gold makes the rules".
When you said " How do I explain it to them", it makes me think you may not be in a position to teach if you cannot identify the problem. Classic example, when 2 or more guitar players are in the band, and none are playing lead, you end up with 3 rhythm guitar players. It's RARE to need more than one. This alone could be your problem. The extra guitars should divide between single notes and alternate rhythms.
Jim's post actually made me think of something. At one point our band consisted of a singer/guitar player, a bass player, and a lead guitar/dobro/ukulele player. Often I'd work something out with the singer/guitar player and we'd have something that would sound really good. We'd add bass and guitar the next practice and it would sound like crap. If I stopped playing, it sounded great again. I noticed it was mostly when the uke player and me were playing at the same time. It was funny kind of... even if he hadn't heard what I'd come up with he tended to come up with lines similar to what I was playing, and his uke was in a very similar range. We were on top of each other and it sounded like a mess. There were a couple solutions. One was for me to listen to a different part of the music to get my inspiration- if I was following the chords, follow the melody more or vice versa. Another was to switch to a different octave. The one song that the uke player and I wrote the music for together I use a LLF on. There is no mistaking our parts. Another thing was when we kicked the guitar/vocalist out, there was more room for all of our parts because the uke guy started playing more rhythm and when he is doing lead stuff there is more room for me to play rhythm. (I do miss his voice though... he's got a standout voice, and sometimes we miss his theory because I could talk to him in theory terms and he could translate that into guitar terms for the other two.)
Another solution is to either pick someone to be the leader, and it's their job to make sure everyone sounds good together, or to assign each tune to someone to lead the band on. (That's a good middle ground I think, for a group that doesn't have that cult of personality type front man.)
Sounds like your guitar players like you,so go with something like harp ninja suggests.Kingley is right with the look ma I can do it better,instead of playing to the song. Iceman is right on if that don't work try fitting in with someone else.Jim's comments are right on,and certain songs the harp lead sounds the best,but bucking heads with guitarist is counterproductive.Great advice from Nacoran fitting the pieces together.
I have been able to find some good guitarists who like the harp,and are able to lead me,when and where they want me to rip,good deal.Also in a duo situation I have been able to play the song with real monsters,and everything falls into place.
On the other end of the spectrum,been in jams where nobody knows the key or else they are tuning down a half step,great to have Db,Eb,Ab harps.I have bombed out,or totally not played when thrown into those spots,yes I am rambling,sorry.
When I think my job is to piss off or make the guitar player be at his best,is when everybody has been the happiest,and the song sounds better,hope that makes sense.Good Luck
Last Edited by capnj on Aug 01, 2013 7:43 PM
@Tuckster I don't think that there'd be a single Harp player who has ever ventured into playing with a band(or jams) that hasn't had the same problem at some stage.
The best harp players in my neck of the woods have told me that they learn't a long time ago that a) they had to learn to sing b) then they can form their own band and have control over levels ,dynamics etc.
Interestingly enough,neither of them like to jam at our blues club jam.They don't have total control then.
Im glad most of my jamming is to accompany acoustic guitars...I don't play in a band but can see that a harp player needs to find the right fit in club settings
Teaching is harder than harmonica. Consider what HarpNinja said above as Ricci level skill on teaching (which is the subject here). "...make them feel like it was their idea." That's magic, IF you can do it. He started with a great strategy: "Record the issue, playback for them, discuss it..." Recording is your best tool. Use it. Opening the floor for discussion will take some organization -most guitar players will fast forward to their next solo. Reviews can be framed around your goals which should be examples of what you want to sound like (rubrics/benchmarks for measuring yourselves). Ask, Is what we're doing working? Develop the conversation by text/email/FB to help focus on particular issues/tunes/sections and try to frame thoughts around your goals/benchmarks. Praise is always good -succinct praise. Ideas should be followed with clarifying replies like, "Do you mean...or..., explain further". It'll be baby steps. Mike again: "Changing a belief is WAY hard." (caps added for emphasis). Record again and discuss.
Last Edited by Littoral on Aug 02, 2013 6:20 AM
Iceman and Littoral are exactly right: Find better bandmates. Immature guitar players don't play loud because they have not been "trained," they play loud because that is the style that pervades the guitar culture.
A harp player needs to assess this before joining a band or hiring a guitar player. It is impractical to believe you can change their style to meet your needs. It ain't gonna happen unless it is a pro band and you write the checks.
The guitar player in the video is Bad Brad Stivers, barely 21 years old. But he his a serious blues musician who studies T-Bone Walker, not Jeff Beck. Players like Brad are rare but they are out there.
It's not always that easy to find other musicians to play with in your area. Sometimes loud, ego driven wall to wall guitar playing is the only game in town. On the amplified scene that's absolutely the case where I live with one exception. That good guitarist though is not interested in gigging and only occasionally turns up at a jam night (once or twice a year). The acoustic scene is all Bob Dylan style singer songwriters and folk singers. Which just ain't my bag. People like Rick, Greg and Joe L are fortunate to live in areas that have a good thriving blues scene. That isn't the case for the majority. This is why I no longer play in bands and just attend some jam nights now. I'd rather not gig at all, than gig some shit I don't like playing.
Mike raises a good point. It'll be interesting to see what answers turn up.
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 02, 2013 7:55 AM
The challenge is in getting band members to listen to the combined ensemble sound.
At the mid level of talent, most of these guys are one step removed from being in the moment....they listened to records, learned their part and focus on themselves playing to the record in their head instead of opening themselves up to what is happening around them in real time. ---------- The Iceman
Iceman- Very true indeed. Most players at that level don't listen to what's going on at all.
I know so many guitarists who just watch each others fingers and only listen to the other guitarist. I know bass players and drummers who have no idea what each is doing due to not listening, harp players that don't know when to shut up or have no idea of the structure of the song and singers who don't know when to come in, when the next verse starts, how to signal stops, solos or endings. I know guitar players who throw a tantrum like a two year old if they don't get a 24 bar solo in every song, drummers who speed up and slow down. I even know one who just stops randomly in the middle of songs. Even horn players who have no idea how to play brass style horn riffs. Oh the joys of jamming! The most amusing thing is when these people say to me after a jam night "What a great night tonight, everybody sounded brilliant and played their socks off" Obviously they ain't hearing what I'm hearing!
Thanks everyone for some great insights. You've given me a lot to chew on. My bandmates are actually very good musicians. They're technically proficient and knowledgeable about music theory(my theory knowledge just gets me by). The main problems are excessive volume and too fast tempos. I've bitched & bitched about the tempos and last gig that was actually manageable. I'm afraid the volume issue is going to be tougher to solve. Our last gig was a multiband benefit. We were the 4th band up and the sound man immediately told us to turn down. The guitarist is way over the top and doesn't have a clue. He is also by nature a hyper type person. He's always pushing the beat and when I do solo, he's pushing hard. The bass player has told him about this and for awhile he settles down. That's at rehearsal. However at gigs,I've seen the bassist join him in pushing the beat. I think it's part of playing out that you get psyched up and play fast? As for me,I don't sing. I'm a sideman and I'm quite happy in that role. Although far from a master,I'm an above average solid player. I think I have good ears and a good feel for what does and doesn't work musically. My passion has certainly waned of late. In the last 2 months,I've hardly touched my harps.Lately,it's come back a little but nowhere like it used to be. My gut feeling is to just quit but it's more complicated in a) I'm good friends with my bandmates and b) I'm seriously addicted to playing with other musicians and fear I would miss it too much. It would be difficult to find anyone else to play with in my area. I'd have to venture into Pittsburgh to find good players and I hate all the driving involved. We haven't rehearsed in a while and I haven't missed it. We're probably going to get together next week and I'm going to give it one last shot. I'll address the volume issues in no kind way so they know I'm dead serious about it. Wish me luck!
Famous? I love Doug Demming. He's a harp player's dream. Little Charlie Baty. He's a prodigious guitarist but he still is able to back a harp player. Don't know their names but anyone who's played with Hummel or Piazza know how to do it. Now that you mention it,what are those guys doing that makes them so easy to play with? Part of my problem is not being able to explain what those guys are doing to make it so easy. My guitarist adores Little Charlie. I've actually told him to just listen to what he's playing when he's NOT soloing.
Locally,I think Jimmy Adler is very "harp friendly".
Our drummer is fairly new to blues but he's very open minded and always open to constructive criticism. Our bassist is a really astute musician and he's always schooling him.Our drummer has come a long way and I don't think he's the problem.However,in a live situation the bassist doesn't always practice what he preaches.I know drummers are important but around here there is no Jimi Bott,Richard Innes or Marty Dobson. Sigh.
Oh guitarists ... Well, I've come to the conclusion that no beating round bushes is the way to go ... just spill your guts about it ... in a creative way of course ... we are all grownups, right? Creative input for the higher cause? If I was doing something on stage over and over that didn't fit the song or clashed with the arr I shure wish someone in the band wouldn't think twice about telling me If members in the band can't handle a "creative" diskussion or don't have the will or skill to change .. well that leaves me with two choices : ... to stay and let it be... minding my own business and giving the listerners the best I can do ... ... or ... leave. I've done both, but I still think harp players must stand their ground. The harp's status has come a long way over the last years, but still needs a bit of territorial fighting with the six-shooters now and then. Over the years I've found out that staying in spite of all can still be good ... took me places ... gave me new contacts ... thickened my skin ... ... and leaving felt damn good ... and took me in new directions ... Good luck ... ---------- The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on Aug 02, 2013 5:13 PM
I had the pleasure of playing some tunes with Jimmy Adler, using my buddies set=up who was gigging with him at the time. No drummer, just bass, guitar and harp... Jimmy is a harp conscious musician which makes playing harp easy with him!
I feel what makes those guys you mentioned so easy to play with is... for the most part - they keep things relatively simple and easy to follow for whoever is soloing.
Frank- Not as much Chicago or Swing as I'd like. Generally,what my guitarist calls blues,I call blues rock. Now that I think about it,we play no trad Chicago blues. We tried some,but the guitarist just don't get it. I don't mind being challenged and stretching out of my comfort zone,but every once and a while I'd like to "rest" in my comfort zone.
Here's what works for me. Find a guitar player who likes to play rhythm guitar. Who is rhythmically creative as he lays down those chords. Who likes 7ths, 9ths, and big fat chords. The harp sounds great over them.
Find a guitar player who keeps good time (i.e. plays rhythmically) even when he's soloing.
I agree with those who say you've got to find a guitar player who WANTS to play like this. Forcing him to play the way you want (but not the way he wants) will not work, because, in the end, he doesn't get it.
"I would equate playing harp to music I don't have FULL PASSION for as a living hell..."
Hahaha! I have to agree with you Frank.
One of the reasons that it's so hard to find guitarists who play in the same style as Charlie Baty, Rick Holstrom, Alex Schultz, etc, is that to play that style is far from easy for a guitarist. It's heavily based in jazz and requires a good knowledge of chords and scales. Most guitar players take the easier route and stick to playing rock blues with predominantly seventh chords and using heavy distortion and volume to hide behind. In much the same way that many harp players won't play on a vocal mic.
Even if you live in an area where it's rich in blues music that isn't all just rock blues guitar slinger stuff. You will have to be able to stand on stage and know what you're doing when playing alongside those cats. You gotta be able to walk the walk and talk the talk and really know your shit. I suspect that a lot of the harp players that want to play that kind of stuff couldn't really walk the walk when it comes down to it. You have got to be able to play more than just recycled Little Walter songs note for note. You got to have a good knowledge of that music generally and not just harmonica focused tunes. You have to know about music that isn't based on the harmonica to move in those circles. Most of those tunes you all love by people like Piazza, Clarke and Kashmar aren't blues harmonica songs originally and a hell of a lot of them weren't even blues to begin with.
When the band started up,it was looking pretty good. Quite a few songs I enjoyed playing. Some I still enjoy playing. But over time,it got louder and the guitarist quit listening to my song suggestions and put in all of his choices. It's his PA stuff,we rehearse in his garage. He's actually a nice guy but is pretty self absorbed. The friendship makes it a little sticky situation. The bottom line is I'm no longer having fun and what else is there?? I'm sure in hell not in it for the money. I never was one to want to do note for note covers. Yes,I do a few,but only because they're not as well known and I do them pretty well. I actually like challenges,but only within my capabilities. It's gotten to be that just about every new song is a hard challenge,just because they are so unfriendly to harp.
At the few and far between jams I attend,I won't play with certain guitarists because I know it's not a good fit. I know better. If I didn't know my buddy and he showed up at a jam,I'd choose not to play with him. Not very hopeful of turning this band around.
Tuckster - I've been in that exact same situation more times than I care to remember. I feel for you. It's a very hard thing to deal with. It's almost like ending a relationship with a lover emotionally speaking. The only thing I can say is that each time I agonised over it and each time I ended up calling it quits. I've never regretted leaving those bands. Although I do miss playing so many gigs, playing more rehearsed stuff and the general vibe of good band mates. The plus side though is that I don't come home feeling pissed off after gigs due to volume, egos and musical differences anymore. These days I play with people of lesser musical ability than many of the players I've played with in the past. Each time though they have more fun with the music and the audiences at the jams I attend are really friendly (even the drunks!). I also get exposed to much more diversity of music and asked to play on things I wouldn't normally have considered playing on. I'd say if you feel it's making you really unhappy then take a break from it or maybe try and get a little duo/trio together that fulfils your desire to play other material whilst playing with the band. Your friends should understand whatever you decide to do.
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 05, 2013 4:29 PM
Kingley- I was a bit shocked when I saw you unloading all your gear-including harps. I couldn't understand how a player at your level could do that. In the last two months,I've almost been to that point but decided to ride it out in the hope I would change my mind. I always look at my own shortcomings as the problem,but I'm seeing that's not always the case. Sometimes it IS the other guy. The acoustic duo thing is really appealing,but it's tough to find a good match around here. I'd have trouble giving up music entirely. When it works,it's a kind of spiritual fulfillment. I'd never thought about playing with less skilled musicians. I'm not sure where to find them. The jams are run by veterans. I might have to start getting around to them again and maybe find someone that's a good match.
Last Edited by Tuckster on Aug 05, 2013 5:51 PM
For me personally the Swing and Chicago grooves are the "meat and potatoes" of the harmonica, and are the types of music I enjoy studying and love to play...
That music seems to fall out of the harp in an absolutely natural way. And once you understand the logic and feeling of how to swing the 1,4,5 - improvising to the grooves and rhythms is very pleasurable :)
I agree, a player would want to be very comfortable with that type of music to play with those stellar rhythm section musicians - though it's not rocket science what Piazza, Clarke or Kashmar are doing... by all accounts they're simply but expertly - swinging the blues, mixolydian and pentatonic scales to a very cool 1,4,5 format.
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 06, 2013 3:45 AM
"For me personally the SWING and Chicago grooves are the "meat and potatoes" of the harmonica, and are the types of music I enjoy studying and love to play..."
I agree Frank. The problem is that kind of swing is a lot harder for guitar players to play then rock blues is. That's why so few of them play it. Even though musically speaking it's far, far more interesting to play. You can utilise so many more chord shapes and make far more interesting musical choices. it's a completely different mindset to play and is generally approached from a much more jazz based standpoint than rock blues is for a guitarist. Even though much of the solo stuff is still based on the blues, mixolydian and pentatonic scales, it's the chordal backing that is the really hard part. Many guitarists simply don't have that knowledge of chords to fully realise the potential.
Dead on Mr. Kingly...And same with the bassist and drummer - if they haven't enveloped themselves in jazzy blues - they ain't gunna swing in a way that frees up the harp player to improvise horn lines till the cows come home :)
Frank- Much rather play to the Hank version over the Thorogood version. I hate that kind of groove and of course the guitarist loves the Thorogood one!
Kingley= That's a no brainer. He leaves lots of space to fit in and that relaxed swinging groove.
Ok Here's one that I consider to be the worst of the worst. Guitarist claims it's a Jimmy Reed groove. I say only if he was smoking crack! I've told them this song sucks. Here's where my shortcomings come into play: other than the choppy chunka chunka groove, I can't tell them why it's so bad-I just know it is.They ain't hearing what I'm hearing and think it's fine.Not the best audio but you'll get the idea. I'm not letting this drivel circulate on the Internet for too long. Setting it to private tomorrow.
"Guitarist claims it's a Jimmy Reed groove. I say only if he was smoking crack!"
Tuckster - And then some! If that's a Jimmy Reed groove then I'm a Martian sex god. It's just typical blues rock shuffle crap. These guys obviously don't listen to blues and have no idea of how to play it. They aren't listening to each other and have no idea how to play as a band. They sound exactly like all those bands I walked away from. To me it's just musical diarrhea. I'm not surprised you feel mighty pissed off with it all.
We solved the sound level problem by micing the amp and getting a PA speaker back loud to the guitarist. Given yours is singing a set of in ear monitors would allow the guitar to be as loud as he wants to hear it and the amp volume can drop to where the rest of the band can keep up. Not sure what to do about the timing issue, though you guys don't have too much to complain about, the audience appears to be having good time and digging it, which is the first priority as a band....it might be the guitar is so loud he cannot hear the drum properly so a bit of mic back through his in ear monitor would help there as well.
