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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Gain on vocals
Gain on vocals
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nacoran
6976 posts
Jul 25, 2013
8:33 PM
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Well, I'm starting to get the blues sound I want on my vocals, but when I'm playing harp too, particularly Chicago style where I can't back off the mic, my vocals aren't coming up to volume. (I've always had kind of a quiet voice). I'm singing about as high as I can, and not playing all that loud, basically I can get the harp to sound the way I want, and I can get the vocal to sound the way I want, but the mix is off when I'm switching from one to the other.
So, what's the solution? I'm kind of happy with the effects from my amp for both harp and vocal. I suppose I could use a second mic and either use a reverse splitter or a second amp. The other solution might be a gain pedal (I think... I don't know much about pedals.) Is there a third option? What are the pros and cons of each method? What are good pedals for the job? Is there anything out there that would let me balance the two channels against each other before I started playing graphically- without getting into a full blown mixer?
(I suppose a volume control mic might work too, but I suspect I really only want two setting, not a continuous grade that I can screw up).
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Nate
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wolfkristiansen
197 posts
Jul 25, 2013
11:06 PM
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Hope I've not misunderstood you, nacoran.
Here's what I understood-- You're playing harp and singing through the same mic with the same volume/tone settings for both.
You didn't say whether you are playing through a P.A. (Public Address System) or an instrument amplifier. You talk about "effects from my amp", which makes me think it's an instrument amplifier.
On the other hand, most people don't sing through an instrument amplifier. James Cotton did, for a while. I saw him do it. (BBQ B, feel free to correct me)
No matter whether it's a P.A. or an amp, different tone and volume settings are needed for vocals vs harmonica.
Solutions, in order of preference, and assuming you've got the resources/money:
1. Harp through a mic into an instrument amplifier with harp friendly tone and volume settings; vocals through another mic into a P.A. with vocal friendly tone and volume settings.
2. Harp through one mic, vocals through another, both going through a mixer into the same amplifier, probably a P.A., where you've adjusted each channel to balance your vocal volume vis à vis your harp volume, and adjusted your tonal settings for each if your mixer allows that.
3. Harp and vocals through the same mic, same volume and tone settings. This is what you are doing. This is the dangerous one, since the volume settings for a singer will be louder and brighter than the settings needed for harp, especially if you're cupping the mic every time you play harp through it.
Bottom line-- you really need two separate chains of amplification to do justice to the volume/tone needs of your vocals compared to those of your harp.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
Last Edited by wolfkristiansen on Jul 25, 2013 11:09 PM
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S-harp
152 posts
Jul 26, 2013
4:04 AM
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Yes ...I agree with wolfkristiansen, two separate mics is the way to go ... one for singing and one for harp - playing through PA or amp.
When using the same mic I find it helpful singing really close, on axis and playing harp a bit of axis directing the sound towards the mic more from the side using the hands, rolling off the brightness with cupping technique
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
Last Edited by S-harp on Jul 26, 2013 4:21 AM
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dougharps
426 posts
Jul 26, 2013
7:30 AM
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If you are going straight to the PA you can make one hand held mic work if you have a volume control. It can be done without volume control as S-harp suggests, but is easier with volume control. You can also use a mic in a stand. You work the distance from the mic and cupping to vary volumes.
If you hand hold the mic you will have to accept cutting some (but not too much!) of the high end frequencies. You sing with the mic wide open, and then cut back volume for cupping. If you have a mic with proximity effect it will boost the lows when you cup.
My Shure 585SAV is great for this, but I have also used one of Greg Heumann's Ultimate 58s and also an SM57 with one of Greg's separate volume controls added, and it can work just fine.
However, you mentioned just using two settings. I recently found this and was intrigued, but have not tried it. You set the volume differences and step on the button to change levels. It is a passive high-z attenuator. It looks like you only need a battery if you want the light to tell you that state of the switch. You preset the volume cut.
Signal Pad
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Doug S.
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nacoran
6977 posts
Jul 26, 2013
8:27 PM
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Unfortunately I'm already cupping to get distortion on the harp, and singing right on top of the mic for the vocal. If I uncup the mic for the harp I lose my crunch, at least with my current setup. The pedal looks simpler. Maybe I'll take my rig over to the music store and see if I can play with some pedals. That Signal Pad looks kind of like what I was thinking of.
I have tendon problems in my wrists, so I would have a hard time working two mics unless I put them on a stand. With the two mic option, maybe if I got something with volume control I could run them back into the same output.
Looking into this, I've run across a couple other questions. I think I need to reread Greg's PDF on mic setups. I haven't really ever thought about my setup much. Until recently I was playing mostly acoustic style, so I could adjust the volume by playing farther off the mic. Mostly I used the PA. At home I've got Shure Prologue 8L Lo Z mic I picked up in the bargain bin for $10 that seems to work well enough, and a Park amp (which is I guess a Marshal knockoff) that I can't convince my bass player to stop kicking. (It makes a weird 'Sproing wobble wobble' noise when it gets bumped that he really likes.) I got it from a friend at a garage sale for $30, so I guess it's time I spend a little more on gear. (I do have a vocal effects pedal- maybe I could try using that clean and an AB switch. My brain just doesn't think in pedaleese very well.
(Huh, my spell checker seems to think pedaleese is a real word...)
Thanks for the feedback (no pun intended.) I'm open to any other ideas as well. I'll try to sort this out over the next few days.
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Nate
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Greg Heumann
2278 posts
Jul 26, 2013
10:35 PM
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At a minimum, you want a volume control on the mic. If you pick up and cup a mic for harp, assuming the PA is set up not to burst into flames, or have people's ears bleed - then the mic will not be hot enough for your singing, even if you "eat" the mic.
I use an Ultimate 58 for vocals and acoustic harp, through the PA. If I were like you (pick up the mic and cup it for harp) then I would set the PA up so that the sound was good for harp with the mic's volume set between 1/2 and 3/4. When you sing, turn the mic all the way up. Turn it back down for harp work. But I'm the opposite - because I use a bullet and tube amp for my overdriven harp sound, and I want to get my "wah" hand effects between harp and stand-mounted mic for acoustic work, I actually set the mic up for my vocals with the volume at 3/4- and then turn the mic up to full for my harp work.
Either way - a volume control at the mic is very helpful. If you want to sing and play through the same mic and get fatter tone while playing, a pedal like the Harp Attack can be set up into the PA - use bypass for vocals and add some tube distortion for harp.
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
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isaacullah
2475 posts
Jul 29, 2013
4:26 PM
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Brandon Bailey has a good video on this. Basically, he sets his amp to get crunch without a tight cup, and he only hoods the harp and mic in his left hand. He never moves that grip, but instead sings THROUGH the harp (and thus into the mic). Son of Dave plays this way, and I'm starting to as well (my aiming is not at all ready for prime time yet, though.). I think its pretty effective... Give it a try....
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Greg Heumann
2279 posts
Jul 29, 2013
5:58 PM
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In my experience - tiny diaphragm mics can be good four acoustic work, not so good for overdriven tone. The smaller the diaphragm, the less likely the element will sound good overdriven.
There's a reason the old CR's, CM's and crystals with 1" to 1.5" diaphragms are still consider "the holy grail" for blues.
The Shure 545 and its derivatives are proof that exceptions exist, however. that diaphragm measures about 1/2" in diameter and still sounds great - though a lot of mics in that size range DON'T.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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nacoran
6984 posts
Jul 29, 2013
8:24 PM
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Udderkuz, unfortunately, my vocal pedals volume controls don't seem to be part of the programmable part. It's got 3 programmable switches, but the volume and gain are on separate knobs.
Isaac, I've tried the sing through the harp style. I'm not really a loud player. Mostly I think I sort of rest the harp on the top lip of the mic, and lift it up to keep the cup for singing. I was never a very loud singer naturally, particularly in my lower range, but I think I may have done some damage to my voice back in my grunge stage that's made it even harder to project.
I do have an AB box my friend gave/long term loaned me. I suppose I could use it to toggle between going straight to the amp and going to the vocal pedal. I'd have to get something to merge the signals back before they get to the amp. It's a shame the ab switch doesn't have separate volume controls for each input.
Greg, I'm saving up all my change. I just cashed in $100 in quarters and dimes. That gets my microphone fund up to $200, but it would be a lot easier to 'settle' and buy one of your 'regular' mics if your custom wood ones weren't so insanely awesome looking. :)
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Nate
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