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Why your reeds go flat
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
1515 posts
Jul 23, 2013
7:02 PM
Why Harmonica Reeds go flat

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David

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David
jbone
1308 posts
Jul 23, 2013
8:21 PM
Okay Dave..........
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kudzurunner
4165 posts
Jul 23, 2013
8:30 PM
Dave, on what basis are you making the claim that "Most of the great players played very softly"? I'm willing to believe that Junior Wells (after he lost most of the function in one lung) and Little Walter played very softly. Carey Bell sometimes plays whisper-soft.

But I'm quite sure that James Cotton, Norton Buffalo, Jazz Gillum, Sugar Blue, and many others did NOT play "very softly." My teacher, Nat Riddles, hammered his harps very hard. I sat there while he did it. I think you're massaging a myth here.

It's easy to make a harp sound loud and bad by playing too hard. But some of us play very hard indeed, and we've figured out a way of letting that intensity work for, rather than against, our sound.

I don't ALWAYS play very hard, I should add. Sometimes, especially when playing unamped in the studio nice and close to a big ribbon mic, I play sweet and soft.

I'm leery, in short, of the sort of grand generalization that you make in your essay. Yes, I'm sure you're absolutely right about the metallurgy. Playing hard creates stress on material systems--just as living hard creates stress on biological (human) systems. But sometimes hard living is a good, exhilarating thing. Sometimes a harmonica, whalloped for all its worth, gives off good blues--at least in competent hands.

Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 23, 2013 8:31 PM
capnj
128 posts
Jul 23, 2013
9:13 PM
Once your used to playing hard,and get your sound,learning to play softer is indeed some challenging,and rewarding musical enlightenment.Breath control is great,but bending big,and rocking,swinging hard,needs power to accomplish with my emotional moments, of course competing with sound levels,beyond my control,and the crowd agrees.therefore I pay the price.

Last Edited by capnj on Jul 23, 2013 9:21 PM
nacoran
6969 posts
Jul 23, 2013
10:17 PM
"I don't ALWAYS play very hard, but when I do I drink Dos Equis." :) (I can't hear the phrase 'I don't always' anymore without thinking of that commercial.)

I'll leave the question of who played hard vs. soft to the experts. As to the reed issue, well described Dave. I've tried to explain that in a couple posts and didn't do nearly as good a job. Another point worth mentioning is that there are, at low degrees of flexing, two metals that don't worry. Steel and titanium have a narrow range of motion in which they don't worry at all. I don't know how this compares to the deflection of a reed, but theoretically, as long as you stayed under that threshold your harp should last until something else catastrophic happens to it. I've wondered if maybe that's why some people report steel reeds lasting and lasting and other people saying they blow out more quickly. It would be interesting to get an idea of if it's split strictly along lines of hard vs. soft blowers.

edit: By the way, I don't know what code you used to embed that, but it confused me for a second. It was bigger and bold, but not 'click this blue'. If I hadn't seen the comments below I would have thought you'd deleted the comment. Anyway, nice article. :)


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Last Edited by nacoran on Jul 23, 2013 10:18 PM
Kingley
2927 posts
Jul 23, 2013
10:36 PM
Nice article Dave. I agree that most of the famous players probably played quite lightly. It's fairly evident from the video footage around that Big Walter, Little Walter, Sonny Boy II, Carey Bell and Junior Wells all played lightly a lot of the time.

" But some of us play very hard indeed, and we've figured out a way of letting that intensity work for, rather than against, our sound."

I can't help but wonder when you make this statement Adam if you aren't confusing playing hard with playing with emotional intensity. I know that you know the difference and of course I'm not implying otherwise. Merely that people often confuse the two when describing playing hard.

Harps played "softly" do indeed tend to last longer and seem to stay in tune longer. At least in my experience. I'd be interested to hear what people like Jason Ricci, BBQ Bob, Joe Filisko and Dennis Gruenling have to say regarding the subject.

Last Edited by Kingley on Jul 23, 2013 10:38 PM
capnj
130 posts
Jul 23, 2013
11:07 PM
I would venture to say the amount of notes you play on certain holes whether to forceful or not will cause premature,or inevitable out of tune or blown reeds(mostly 4-5 draw)Practicing crazy guitar parts,and trying to do keyboard solos like me will definately put more hours on a reed.I highly doubt Big Walter or James Cotton were whispering through the dam thing.

David's post was great,irregardless of us fools that can't shake the blowing to hard syndrome,much to the delight of the harp manufacturers.Adam loves to play alot of notes,oh the wear and tear.

Last Edited by capnj on Jul 23, 2013 11:08 PM
GMaj7
254 posts
Jul 24, 2013
2:22 AM
That article is outstanding and very well written.

Horn players practice playing long sustained notes
with their eyes closed concentrating on tone. We could take
this exercise and expand it to the harp a bit and so the same
while using a chromatic tuner.

You might be surprised that you can - like a good martial artist - develop control and discover that it isn't always necessary
to play as forcefully to achieve that bent note.

I'm far from being the one who came up with the idea behind reed polishing, but can say that the results have been very encouraging. Reed polishing is simply a process where a light abrasive (Sanding/rotary, etc) is used on the base of the reed eliminating the mill mark and thus eliminating the point where a fracture starts.

Polished reeds also seem to respond a little better, as well.


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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
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didjcripey
582 posts
Jul 24, 2013
2:35 AM
Nice to see Adam weigh in on the TOO MUCH BREATH FORCE debate.

I find that generally I have better control and play better when I conciously regulate my breath force, but there are times when playing hard works in a way that soft breath will not.
Its horses for courses; depends on the situation.

I really enjoy Adam's 'balls to the wall' style, and its clear, that although he is well in control, he is playing hard, as are many other greats.

Like many things, the middle ground is a good thing to aim for, and fluctuating to each end of the spectrum allows for the fullest expression and greatest dynamic range.
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Lucky Lester

Last Edited by didjcripey on Jul 24, 2013 2:43 AM
The Iceman
1038 posts
Jul 24, 2013
6:20 AM
There is definitely a point of diminishing returns when using force to play.

In other words, you hit a point where the reed maxes out in creating efficient sound/force of breath.

By going past this point, you will be using more force and getting a lot less in return.

James Cotton uses a lot of force. He also blows out reeds or causes them to go flat.

However, I believe he is provided with a lot of harmonicas from whichever manufacturer he endorses.
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The Iceman
groyster1
2313 posts
Jul 24, 2013
8:57 AM
to me its all about your own style that you have,including playing hard or soft....I once saw cotton play rocket 88 live....he certainly let it rip!!!but little walter said"some of these cats use a lot of wind,I just use a little wind and navigate up&down these reeds".....it certainly worked for him and that is the approach I take
barbequebob
2307 posts
Jul 24, 2013
10:39 AM
I've seen Cotton play hard and also seen him play very soft at times as well. As far as him blowing them out every week, if it was during Hohner's crappy stock years of 1981-1995, it would make sense because the slot tolerances were inconsistent and often times very wide, combs often had saw marks not sanded flush flat (because they were sharpening the cutting blade only once every 5 years at the time) and when tuning, they were making HUGE gouges going diagnolly across the reed, which severely weakens the reed and if you tended to play hard and bend past the floor with an even harder breath force, the reed would blow out fast.

Having personally seen Big Walter many times and even having a demonstration using one of my own harps for how he did his cover of LW's Can't Hold On Much Longer, where he played it whisper soft was quite an eye opener. Much like LW, who no doubt in my mind took a lot from him, there were times he played harder, but because a lot of what he did was hit so softly, it seemed harder than what it really was.

If you're doing overblows, especially with a harp set up for that technique, the gaps are closer and so when the gaps are closer, if you hit too hard, the reed chokes up faster, so even the hardest overblower isn't playing as hard as he/she may be think they're playing.

Learning breathing exercises from a vocal coach and that little demonstration from BW taught me how not needing hard breath force 24/7, I could do much more than by just imitating a wind tunnel like many players tend to and the vocal breathing exercises which also included relaxation exercises allowed me to fully relax, allowing air passages to be fully wide open and allow greater airflow with a minimum amount of force, which is essentially the technique of an opera singer who is taught how to project without the need of any PA equipment at all.

Endorsement deals for most players usually means that you get them at a wholesale price and RARELY ever free harps and Hohner stopped the free harps with endorsement deals in the very early 70's.

Many players who teach themselves often waste a lot of breath because a large number of them, especially when they use the LP technique, often unknowingly are guilty of holding them too far away in order to make perfect contact and so air leaks out the embouchure and gets wasted, and this usually happens far less with those who started out TB'ing.

Many players when they bend notes, the force often gets much harder, so the reeds get more heavily stressed and then the blow out happens fast, especially players new to the instrument. Much of the time, the hardest breath force tends to be on the draw breath from holes 1-6 and on the blow breaths on holes 7-10 because the way they've taught themselves to bend is to force the issue, which is the wrong approach.

There is hard playing just as much as there is such a thing as playing way too hard but it takes tons of work to get this under control. I remember when I used to blow them out rapidly but BW's demonstration ga ve me w whole new perspective and since then, I blow out far fewer harps.

Getting breathing and relaxation exercises from a reputable vocal coach can help out a lot, which I did get years ago.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
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rbeetsme
1314 posts
Jul 24, 2013
10:47 AM
"Sometimes a harmonica, whalloped for all its worth, gives off good blues--at least in competent hands."

There must be a song there somehow!
HarpNinja
3383 posts
Jul 24, 2013
11:05 AM
When customizing harps, I find that the gaps from an overbend harp to a non-overbend harp aren't much different. If you think about how overbends work relative to how blow and draw reeds plays, it makes sense.

It is a huge misnomer that the gaps have to be so tight you risk choking reeds at appropriate levels of force. Anyone telling you you have to baby a harp set for overdraws doesn't know how to set them up well.

I play hard for an ob player but rarely kill reeds. I don't think it is a good habit to play hard, nor do I think excusing poor technique by saying "pros" do it is very clever.

While we instantly jump to comparing pressure with the greats - the top 1% of players - those mere mortals with this bad habit aren't getting that sort of effect by killing harps.
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walterharp
1144 posts
Jul 24, 2013
11:16 AM
I have been in the same room with Adam while he is practicing unamplified and can vouch. The dude plays hard. Not only is the volume high but he is obviously moving lots of air.

There seem to be two factors here. One is how hard, and the other is how controlled.

So I am curious Adam, on a harp you use often, how long does it last before you blow out a reed? That would give a benchmark to the rest of us on how a hard blower with good technique would expect to keep a harp going for.
MP
2845 posts
Jul 24, 2013
11:34 AM
From GMaj7-

"Horn players practice playing long sustained notes
with their eyes closed concentrating on tone"

i'll vouch for this. It is exactly what my T-sax teacher had me doing. Hold notes on the lowest octave
for as long as you can before your tone gets screwy.

do this on all the notes of your harp and listen to your tone. Do it w/ all your bends; especially the three draw bends on the three draw hole. Try to make each bend spot on and distinct from the next.

Players play hard and they play soft and both and some are good and some are not and reeds go flat (or sharp, sometimes very sharp) no matter how you play. It's just a matter of time before harps need retuning.

Great Players? i'll go w/ Bob on this one.
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MP
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"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"

click user name [MP] for info-
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Grey Owl
218 posts
Jul 24, 2013
12:41 PM
I am wondering to what degree the gapping of the harp affects/protects stress levels on the reed.

I get the impression that Adam doesn't gap his reeds close,
preferring to use more air/attack to get the reeds moving thus adding more intensity to his playing.

From a manufacturing standpoint it seems they have traditionally preferred to gap wide as a safety precaution against damage to reeds caused by new players who haven't got bending levels under control.

I never know anything about gapping until I joined this Forum and some harps I bought over the years were pretty difficult to play (so much air needed to drive them)
Now with a little gapping most of my problem harps have
been fixed.
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Jul 24, 2013 1:12 PM
fred_gomez
128 posts
Jul 24, 2013
12:59 PM
if you play them they will eventually die. i had a brand new D that lasted 5 minutes, my last A lasted 5 years. guitarist crank up their amps, sound men can turn you down. if you cant hear yourself you will play harder. guitar strings go dead and so do reeds thats life in the big city. the greats also played through very hot mics hard to obtain today. guitars didnt have neo mag pups
wolfkristiansen
193 posts
Jul 24, 2013
1:50 PM
This thread quickly went from "why reeds go flat" to "hard vs soft playing".

I agree with everybody that hard playing makes reeds go flat. I like to play hard nevertheless. Especially true on stage. Not for the volume, rather for the intensity that comes with it. Practical result-- my harps go flat, I tune them once to extend their life, then throw them away when they go flat again. I'm ok with this.

As an aside, I've often thought I should learn to overblow/overdraw before saying, once again, that I don't like the sound. (Don't jump on me, I'm not saying it here!) My criticism of the sound (not the technique) would carry more weight if I could do the damned thing and talk from that perspective.

One of the things holding me back, besides complacency and laziness, is the requirement to gap the reeds close to the plate. How can I blow and suck mightily, as I love to do, if the reed is going to choke? Embarrassing on stage. From intensity to silence. Maybe I need two sets of harps, one loosely gapped for wailing, the other tightly gapped for overblows.

Cheers,

wolf kristiansen

Last Edited by wolfkristiansen on Jul 24, 2013 1:52 PM
Grey Owl
220 posts
Jul 24, 2013
2:02 PM
Wolfkristiansen. I think you should be able to reach a compromise in the gap setting so as to still play with force and be able to play OB's.

If you are going to play OB's and OD's most of the time say in a Jazz context, then tighter gapping, embossing etc., will be necessary and will compromise your ability to play forcefully.

OB's can sound weird and it's a challenge when you can play them to make them sound nice. A good example of a player who uses them well in a melodic sense is Christelle. When I first heard her playing I wasn't aware of them sounding strange and couldn't figure out how she was playing these unavailable notes!
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Jul 24, 2013 2:03 PM
JInx
469 posts
Jul 24, 2013
4:56 PM
where's the article?
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wolfkristiansen
194 posts
Jul 24, 2013
6:11 PM
Click

Why Harmonica Reeds go flat

in the first message
nacoran
6971 posts
Jul 24, 2013
10:28 PM
See! I told you! Without the blue clicky we can't figure it out. I only went back and did a doubletake mouseover because everyone else was posting David had posted something. :)

There is probably a 'how many harmonica players' joke in there. I know it had me fooled.

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Nate
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SuperBee
1320 posts
Jul 25, 2013
4:41 AM
I'm interested...is it common to blow out 4 blow? I don't think I've ever lost a 4 blowreed. Almost always 4 draw for me. Except on that Manji, which suddenly went flat in 3,4,5 and 6 draw in the same night...
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Last Edited by SuperBee on Jul 25, 2013 5:04 AM
fred_gomez
132 posts
Jul 25, 2013
4:50 AM
the 4 draw always snaps the 5&6 draw go flat. play more 1st position thats all i can think of. or dont practice just blow them out on stage.
SuperBee
1323 posts
Jul 25, 2013
5:03 AM
I just mean, in daves article, down in the comments it says 5 draw and 4 blow are the common reeds to go. I'm asking the question because I have never lost a 4 blow. 95% of my reed losses are 4 draw. In 17 years I've lost 5 draw 3 times and 2 draw twice but I've lost count of the 4 draw reeds I've cracked. Probably a dozen or more. So I wondered when I saw Dave mention 4 blow. It's not a typo, he posted a larger explanation about why it happens. I'm just curious because I've never encountered it or heard of it before
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fred_gomez
134 posts
Jul 25, 2013
5:21 AM
maybe hes not a blues guy. but your right always the 4 draw snaps usually the D the A goes flat fast ive been saving mine to cash in for scrap metal. i think he plays prewars too so thats why the baby factor maybe. hohner should make just a draw replacement plate just for blues guys and save the world some wasted metal.
HarpNinja
3385 posts
Jul 25, 2013
6:30 AM
It is a misnomer that gaps have to be "tight" in order to overbend. The 4 draw on short slot harps seem to go out fairly quickly, as does the 5 draw.

If I had to guess, it is mostly due to bending those reeds below pitch.
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MP
2851 posts
Jul 25, 2013
12:03 PM
@ Bee,

Four blow blowout is fairly common. I remember a short flirtation with Huang Star Performer harps. Me and a friend used to buy them because they were cheap and Norton Buffalo played them or so we heard. We both killed four blows on these harps annoyingly quickly.
The four blow is the reed that sounds on a four draw bend. Therefore it gets quite a bit of stress sent its way.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.

"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"

click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Grey Owl
221 posts
Jul 25, 2013
12:05 PM
HarpNinja said

'It is a misnomer that gaps have to be "tight" in order to overbend.'

Maybe this a a question of semantics but when I mentioned 'tight' it was in respect of tolerances.

I found instant results when following the recommendations by Joe Spiers in his Youtube vids on gapping. I had harps where the gaps were wide and could not OB them. I closed these gaps so they were tighter to the reed plates and OB's were then acheiveable.

I have also tightened the gap tolerances along the sides of the reeds by embossing and this has helped stability and bending pitch on OB's

When I have tried these methods I don't tighten the gap tolerances too much so am still able too play with force without 'choking' the reed.
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MP
2852 posts
Jul 25, 2013
12:18 PM
@ Wolf,

i set my gaps pretty high compared to other tinkerers.
i know this to be true because i see the work of most every repair/customizer dude you can think of.

even though the gaps are high the reeds still respond instantly and will handle gale force winds. :-)

i think you'd really dig the 6 OB if you really buckled down and tried it. (it's one of the 3 draw bends we love so much). this gives you another octave to play licks in. For instance- The entire horn line from Born Under a Bad Sign is at your service! It's freakin Cool! The ONLY reason i can OB is because i'm competitive and don't care to be out done. I know, it's sad and bogus, but i can't help myself. :-)
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.

"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"

click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Harpaholic
313 posts
Jul 25, 2013
4:55 PM
What about reed hardening? Is that a real process? There's a customizer that claims to do it.
This is part of his description for one of his harps.
"Arcing, embossing, gapping, reed hardening (four ways to increase the fatigue strength of reeds)"

Last Edited by Harpaholic on Jul 25, 2013 4:56 PM
SergZZZ
75 posts
Jul 26, 2013
12:19 AM
Harpaholic - Yes, I do hardening, I even have a special equipment. But it is quite difficult technology. While this allows you to make only a limited number of harmonics. Currently done only 100 of these harmonics. It is extremely small. After 2.5 years of breakdowns has not yet been identified.
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Harpaholic
314 posts
Jul 26, 2013
1:21 AM
Thanks Serg! I think I just bought your G harp?

Is this a process you developed? Can you tell us a little about it?


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